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Interesting article about mmo development
frankendreadz
Posts: 75 Arc User
Just saw this article today
Here's the link
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Give it a read, its really quite informative and gives a perspective on what is currently occurring
And may give some insights on whats is happening behind the scenes, the trends that the sector are following, attitude of those who work within, pressures etc..
Here's the link
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Give it a read, its really quite informative and gives a perspective on what is currently occurring
And may give some insights on whats is happening behind the scenes, the trends that the sector are following, attitude of those who work within, pressures etc..
Post edited by frankendreadz on
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Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Possibly, but the other problem that was evident and repeated constantly is that CCP had no clear cut goals or plans to begin with. As I've stated elsewhere, it's great to have passion, but passion means little without the things to guide and direct it.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Sound familiar?
Oh I don't disagree that putting eggs in too many baskets is bad as a whole, but without knowing what is really going on can't make such assumptions that it applies everywhere. The view I generally have is that the MMO genre is trying to be too much like the mainstream gaming scene, which really doesn't work well in its favor, but then again the other underlying problem, most people that work on these spend years on it before the game even launches and burn out is inevitable.
I do feel that in the MMO scene focus on and improving something should be done, but even that is difficult to do because if your developers are burnt out the passion they did have could very well be gone. While the mainstream gaming scene is obviously stagnant, and companies, even indies, are afraid to tip toe outside of the norm, burn out is a major problem. Mainstream usually works a few years on one project, it is shipped and they move onto a new one, where as in an MMO which demands constant changes and reiterations, they are working on the same thing regardless. It just comes down that you eventually want to just find something new to do, no matter how much you might love something.
But then again, the industry is a double edged sword to which is another problem. While mismanagement is probably one of the biggest problems why promising titles fail to see the light of day and get cancelled with regularity, the consumer side is also problematic with people often demanding things without providing real feedback to what they actually want. Just change it or fix it is often an answer to questions of what is actually wrong with things, and the end result is a big guessing game with the only real analytical graph to give any answers metrics of what shows promise and popularity versus what doesn't.
When no real feedback is given it's frustrating that way to.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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There's fundamental difference.
Cryptic managed to produce something that way...
Twice.
Seems like Cryptic's much better at project management.
Support requires funding. Whether you believe it or not, the most we've ever been told about the state of Champions income has it's had enough to stay afloat, which is not very promising for future development.
It's a circle, sadly. Projects require funding, but on a post launch game funding is very dependent on the player base. If the player base really isn't funding it, then future development slows to a crawl or halts. You can't make something with nothing, basically.
But, considering how development of things have picked up, whether you care to believe that or not, there seems to be more than enough evidence Champions is out of maintenance mode. But the speed of updates is always going to be limited by resources.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Games having a ridiculous development plan is nothing new. Working long hours in the lead up to launch was standard. If you end up doing that with every game you work on, burn out is only a matter of time. There are other things that contribute to burn out as well. If you're really good at doing something, but want to learn something else, you may never be given the opportunity. Especially if there aren't many other people good at what you do so well.
If consumer are to blame for anything, it's letting companies slide for launching buggy as hell games and day 1 DLC to go along with the massive day 1 patch. And now we have crap like buying founder's packs for alpha access to games that are no where near finished. Landmark started their alpha without even basic options available. Not only did they have the ability for people to buy a founder's pack and play alpha, but people actually paid money to play that mess.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Sorry but consumers have a lot more on their shoulders than just that. It isn't a zero sum system. Expecting developers to be psychics and knowing exactly what you want is silly.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I don't know about that... forums seem to be full of people making requests or demands.
But the part of said requests might not be simple to do, or not doable at all, or not doable in the requested shape. Then you have the risk of the audience complaining.
Just saying...
Making requests or demands is not the same as knowing what you want.
There is sometimes some overlap between them.
Yeah, but the claim made was "no feedback" and no one saying "what they want." Endless forum threads of people doing just that across the Internet seem to put the lie to that.
lol wut?
The industry has certainly become more challenging over the years though. The market has become saturated, expectations are higher which means much larger development cycles, there's a diminishing market for desktops as opposed to mobile devices, and players have less to spend on games.
I agree with you Sterga; the new trend of asking players to pay for the privilege of alpha/beta-testing an incomplete game is for suckers.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Example, metrics say Call of Duty is awesome and makes tons of money, but if you listened to the vocal majority, everyone hates call of Duty. So what is the truth?
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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And that kind of thinking is why the games industry is in the shape it's in
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Yeah, well some people seem to just want to excuse company laziness and poor management on the customers because someone got enthralled by random widget that turned out to be snazzy, never mind that the rest of the widgets might be in poor shape. I think Rowdy Roddy Piper was onto something with those magic glasses of his.
Quite the opposite really. Players are being content by saying they think it should be left up to the devs, it is just as much laziness. There is no half and half. So really, it's just as much complacency by saying that.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I rarely see such complacency, unless it's from the rather small cheerleader squads every company develops. And even still, that's not on a wide scale.
Yes, I am aware you have some mystical belief that it's opposite day and we live on the Bizarro planet where people say exactly what's wrong with everything or describe in detail exactly what they want. But reality is they often don't. They barely give even a shell of what they are after. Yea we have a few posts describing power sets in details, and a couple of posts that have images of art they would like, but compare that to the backlog.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Because you've got a degree in marketing, that's why. :biggrin: Sometimes they've got the clout to make the big decisions. Often they work off of "what's worked before" rather than what seems cool, fun, or enjoyable. Them's the breaks.
This pecularity is known for a some time, it probably even has its own name, but I can't recall it correctly.
It doesn't work only in the video games.
Back in the nineties, a PnP game based on the Witcher universe was published in Poland (the very country where the Witcher franchise was made).
It was universally either ignored, ridiculed, or plain hated on conventions, by "seasoned" players, and so on.
The problem is... The Witcher rpg sold really well even for a small local RPG market, better than few much more known and, in theory, more liked games. :biggrin:
For some reason, its playerbase did not attend conventions, did not write any letters for RPG magazines, or not even admit playing it. It appears it was completely disconnected from general PNP RPG fandom. :biggrin:
An important thing to remember is, that people on gaming forums, or even on gaming FB pages, are just a minority for every game, be it a computer, or a tabletop ones. A very vocal and visible minority, but only a minority which may or may not be a good reflection of what the playerbase wants.
An average consumer usually don't care about their game that much to even write anything about it, and if they doesn't like the game, their only vote is usually to stop playing.
Reading forum messages is not market research. It's true that the vocal majority often does not give a very meaningful signal. Market research is more statistical, and may involve such methods as surveying, focus groups, concept testing, and quantitative data analysis (i.e. studying what the players are actually doing based upon data rather than what they say they'll do). There are consulting firms that will assist with market research, but it still requires making the decision to budget for it.
The fact that gamers are generally finicky, emotional, and unspecifically demanding isn't anything new (or specific to CO). It's just what the MMO market is, and if a hypothetical group of game developers is expecting only reasoned and rational feedback responses from their customers, then they must be pretty new at this.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I don't believe a passion for games translates into effective decision makers. Non-gamers might be better positioned to make dispassionate decisions about a game, based on market forces, previous success, and resources available.
The closest comparison I can make is when gamers and comic book fans try to open shops. Their interest does not often translate into business sense. I think the same principle applies to game development.
It needs more PSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
*backflips away*
RIP Caine
For programming, when someone asks for a red Corvette what they actually want is a yellow Camaro while what they need is a big firetruck.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
1) Huge competition. Every quarter(for not saying every month) a new mmo is deployed in the world. Dividing populations takes a fair share of actual resources for each game.
2) Loyalty. Many players are jumper going from one mmo to another, even playing one just while waiting for the one who will satisfy them(which probably won't happen and then jump again). mmos are long time investement and mostly required some expectation of stability. Some games tried to address it by going f2p, but now most games are f2p so we are back to square 1.
3) Diversity. So many types of mmo gamers, themepark or sandbox lovers, carebears or pkers, action or tactical based. That combined with the actual story setup makes the developers a hard task to please everybody.
Imho, developers should research before starting creating a game but once the game goes into some stage, they should stick with its vision. Nothing good have come with sudden changes in game mechanics(this does not include content). For instance, CO first adjustment in xp nerfing at launch pretty much generated so many problems, and it was essentially panicking on players getting to level cap too soon. In the end, players went to level cap pretty quick despite the changes but they were pretty upset and many left the game for good.
That is some extreme fanboyism you have going on if you're honestly saying that a game not succeeding is the fault of the players for not being vocal enough. Anyone in charge of game development that tries to say that the reason they didn't succeed is because their players weren't vocal enough in what the developers should do deserves to lose their job.
No smart entrepreneur sits around and waits for people to tell them what's wanted. Sure, it's a good idea to pay attention to the client base and take their feedback into account but, the ones that succeed are already figuring out how to provide things their clients don't even know they want yet and have a plan that they might modify based on what their clients say.
"We based the iPhone on some stuff we read from possible customers on a forum." --Things Steve Jobs would never have said.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Honestly, that wasn't even worthy of a response.
So, in short, they take a stab in the dark because it's the gamers they are surveying. Really, saying there is market research involved is like saying air is there to breath but that doesn't change the facts of the matter.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I would say that not even at least playing a few games puts you at a disadvantage for making good decisions. Good business sense is important, but so is actually participating in the industry.
I seriously doubt the gaming industry is so dumb that they haven't figured out how to do research like other major industries do before creating and launching a new product.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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Yeah but look at how that turned out. Coke was losing significant ground to Pepsi in the cola wars. After the public faced the possibility of losing a "classic," Coke regained previously lost market share and the rebranded "Classic Coke," was stronger than ever...
/tinfoil hat
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Maybe but I think I will attribute that to the typical reaction that you don't know what you got until it's gone.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
"When you rely on consumer input, it is inevitable that they will tell you to do what other popular companies are doing."
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." Henry Ford
The masses, with some individual exceptions, tend to think in terms of improved capabilities of what is already available, instead of more novel and innovative ideas.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I'm not sure how you're making the logical leap that unsuccessful innovations are correlated to not listening to direct customer feedback in product development, as opposed to the million other reasons that products/businesses fail. Have any references to back that up?
Also, it unsurprisingly doesn't sound like you read the article. It doesn't say anything about "ignoring feedback", but that you can find out what customers want without directly asking them.
You're probably right. I'm sure you know more about such things than Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, and the many other CEOs quoted in the article.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
And your astounding ability to not read what I wrote, throughout this thread, is impressive in its own right.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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It's less about ignoring the feedback, and more about not following it blindly.
Yep, I would agree with that, and also like the EverNote CEO's quote.
Here's another related article about Titanfall developers "secretly" listening to customers complain about problems. It kind of highlights the point that customers are great at complaining about what they don't like, but can't be relied on to explain what they do want.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
And... eavesdropping on in-game conversation is hardly surprising. I would not be surprised if Cryptic tagged certain channels or users to watch what people are saying. None of our conversations are "private" in game. Moral of this story: complain more, suggest less.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
First, a post I wrote last year
And a comic about graphic designers, but could just as easily apply to game designers:
That said, I'd also like to raise a counterpoint:
According to FastCo, Samsung used social media analytics to identify Apple's weaknesses:
On the other hand, Apple was... intent on being Apple:
And look who lost market share in 2013
IMO with modern day analytics and a big enough sample, it should be possible to narrow down and find specific areas of improvement.