I never said melee was underperforming, I believe range is overperforming. The only powers that are behind are TK Blades and Dragons Wrath (if you're facing down a regular target). This is only from a single target perspective, I do believe most melee aoe is questionable compared to range aoe.
A few of those powers would have performed better at full charges.
I am too lazy for screenshots at this time, but here is some quick tests on a few powers. I removed crit gear, form, passive, and most specs, to make testing easier, so damage is low. And there isn't any power that takes advantage of crits there anyway and it is to show differences, the absolute numbers are not that interesting.
charges (note that on top of this, it also adds a small DoT this way)
Burning Chi Fist (M2s1qj) Crushing 63.0 78250.164 1242.066 767.15845 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.3334
taps
Burning Chi Fist Crushing 121.0 71292.734 589.19617 696.8987 100.0 1.6528926 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33335
Prior to on alert the only range form were Aspect of the Infernal and Mental Discipline. The best you could do with the other ranged sets was try and maintain enrage, but that meant investing in strength, which wasn't always the optimal choice. On Alert gave range a global buff with the introduction of Concentration. Ego scaling range damage was also introduced, another global buff. then there was the T0-T1 power buffs, that brought on TGM/Ice Blast/etc silliness. Ranged has been getting buffs time and time again, leaving melee in the dust.
Range should not be able to match melee DPS, or come anywhere close to it due to how the game punishes players (takes vastly more damage) for being in melee and rewards them for range. I believe you saw my post regarding how unfair it is in Gravitar, the majority of the game acts like this.
I'm not sure why you mentioned melee tanks, ranged tanks exist too and can put out just as much hurt.
My very point is tank vs dps balance there. I agree melee dps should do higher damage than ranged. But like melee should do higher dps than ranged, so should dps builds always do higher damage than tank builds, even comparing ranged dps to melee tanks. And that difference between tank vs dps should in my opinion be much higher than melee vs ranged. Of course the exact distinction between dps builds and tank builds is quite lost on CO, but that is one reason why AD/AO and specifically ego surge need some attention first.
So like I said in my other post, toning down ranged dps will make well performing melee tanks do more damage than most ranged dps builds, something I strongly disagree with.
And it is not like there never were any melee buffs, there also was a "melee pass" that for a very long time left ranged in the dust, and did exactly the melee tank outperforming ranged dps thing that I am arguing against. Unless of course they used things like enrage for ranged builds, which was an important reason why we got ranged forms.
I'm not sure if you were around during that time to take part in those discussions, but that was indeed the case for the melee/hybrid forms. The entire explanation is not present in that log, pity.
Oh right melee forms specifically, I remember that one very well. MA forms and enrage were made exactly equal in scaling to concentration and all, to make "balancing things easier". They also weren't part of the actual On Alert patch that was in testing from february until march, but came a month after, that was not designed as a whole.
When done this way its base dps rises to the lvl of TGM, DE, and FC-tap (400-460 range), w/o counting other spells or debuffs.
Not quite, tacked on some more tests. Note that this is a str/con/rec build with 5 int, so the single concentration stack from tgm hardly does anything, and tgm loses some damage from not scaling with str. I hadn't planned on ranged tests...
Well, not by my data. But you know the setup I have to use for my base dps work: no gear, lvl 40, no stars, hybrid role, no SS's, no passives or toggles or supporting powers, all stats at 5 (and no TP when looking at energy costs)- ie. as 'neutral' as I can get it atm.
Tooltip says Annihilate taps are 306 in those conditions.
Averaged 385.67 on the regen dummies w/ some testing (not using the final dmg #s, since they have base resist). That's a 26% increase, which is about the 25% I estimated before.
For full charge, tooltip: 731, regen dummy avg: 799. A 9.3% increase, about the 10% I estimated before. I could extend the tests, but I dun think it'll change the estimate.
And just to make sure, I quickly tested the base dmg versus the normal, knockable dummies and the number range I got matched the tooltip values for both.
Also to make sure it wasn't rank-based- did the same w/ rank 3 of the power. Taps: 441 vs. 542 (23%); charges: 1053 vs. 1169 (11%). Again, not long tests, but I think they suffice in getting the point across.
306/ 0.83 from the tooltip gives 368.7 base dps on tap; 731/ 2 = 365.5 base dps for charge
So, 25% boosts the tap to 460.9 dps, 10% boosts charge to 402.5 dps
It still sucks next to charged Haymaker w/ its bonus, at 633.. but then again, so do most attacks.
I mean, if I have a value off somewhere, I'd be happy to correct it, but anyone can strip a lvl 40 like I did and see it for themselves.
(oh, and it would be bad form of me to neglect, but thanks for taking the time out to run some tests)
I think the power descriptions might not be fully reliable for testing dps. The way I am testing is a using a autofire key that does 10 key presses a second, and use a keybind to force full charges.
I am not at home now, I'll try to rerun the tests without any ss, and just defense/utility gear with rec mods for energy management. That way crit chance is at 2.x%, offense at 0, and str/ego based damage strength should be low too. That would be interesting to compare to the theoretical dps potential.
Yea I wasn't running any DPS tests there- just looking into that knock immune bonus again and working out what it should be like in theory. Haven't run any parses on actual build setups yet. I'm assuming energy issues are causing some problems w/ most HW builds as a whole in PvE. I'd have to tailor my test toon for a prototypical HW-only dps build using Unstoppable to really see what the set can do w/o worrying about energy.
Just add 4 rec mods to your utiltity and defense gear, get some cheap rec defense/utility secondaries, slot cost reduction mods, and get a r3 energy circle.
Yeah w/ enough Rec I dun think energy will be a problem w/ Unstoppable- it would be an SS after all. I want to first see what the energy situation looks like w/ just the powerset's own abilities on decent (not great) gear, and if it is an issue stick in powers from other trees to fully alleviate that.
I'll ask Aqa to help unload my screenshots when she gets home but I did some tests, I'm pretty sure the tests all right but If not I am sorry.
I had only Bludgeon, Annihilate(rank 3), Circle of Arcane Power(Rank 3), oh and I had to pick up Guard and Decimate so i could get Annihilate but I never used them.
Anyway I do hope they are all fair for the test...they seemed so, all Stats apart from Recovery was 5.
And there was no Specs.
So..my results;
Melee DPS role (Taps)
Time: Test 1: 228.7s Test 2: 270.3s
Count: Test 1: 211 Test 2: 262
Avg mag: Test 1: 666.055 Test 2: 653.048
Critical chance: Test 1: 0.948% Test 2: 0.763%
TDPS: Test 1: 619.92 Test 2: 635.11
Melee DPS Role (Charge)
Time: Test 1: 240.2s Test 2: 318.2s
Count: Test 1: 110 Test 2: 147
Avg Mag: Test 1: 1411.961 Test 2: 1405.027
Critical Chance: Test 1: 2.727% Test 2: 1.361%
TPDS: Test 1: 652.58 Test 2: 654.64
Hybrid Role (Taps)
Time: Test 1: 216.4s Test 2: 337.8s
Count: Test 1: 204 Test 2: 314
Avg Mag: Test 1: 536.065 Test 2: 528.138
Critical Chance: Test 1: 2.451% Test 2: 2.866%
TPDS: Test 1: 507.22 Test 2: 504.98
Hybrid Role (Charge)
Time: Test 1: 260.2s Test 2: 326.4s
Count: Test 1: 119 Test 2: 150
Avg Mag: Test 1: 1107.351 Test 2: 1118.472
Critical Chance: Test 1: 0% Test 2: 2%
TPDS: Test 1: 510.35 Test 2: 516.695
I can understand there is still some Critical parts that are affects results and Chance are More tests are needed until there is 0% Critical on all tests, but from what i can see...Charging does just abit more overall DPS, Of course I could be wrong but that is how it looks to me?
Edit: There afew bits on these results bugging me so I want to redo them again sorry
Edit 2: There...Sorry about any confusion, But I wanted longer tests to try and help even Critical chance plus I redid the computer on m Main computer to reduce any performance problems my laptop might have given, anyway there results are about the same with afew difference here and there, Tapping did increase alittle thanks to my Computer responding faster
From a tanking perspective I don't think ranged has an advantage. I can't figure out a ranged build that can tank Frosticus unsupported without giving up alot of dps. Which is unlike melee with Laser Knight or 100% dodge who can afford to never block. Ive gimped several builds' dps down alot for survivability but yet they still are holding agg. My presumption is skipping blocking is increasing dps more than enough to make up the gimping. Elle for example is 100% dodge but is mainly a Shred tapper 90% of the time. She even pulled agg in hybrid from a tank.
So really this analysis is complicated by playstyle and build. Personally I think melee dps is fine even tho all my melee toons suffer an LK or Elusive Monk debuff.
A few of those powers would have performed better at full charges.
I am too lazy for screenshots at this time, but here is some quick tests on a few powers. I removed crit gear, form, passive, and most specs, to make testing easier, so damage is low. And there isn't any power that takes advantage of crits there anyway and it is to show differences, the absolute numbers are not that interesting.
I recall testing out full charge vs taps when making my list, and the only instance where full charge was better was Haymaker...since its kb bonus ramps up with charge. Looking at the log I was throwing in a charged chi fist now and thn for the dot, I neglected to note that down.
My very point is tank vs dps balance there. I agree melee dps should do higher damage than ranged. But like melee should do higher dps than ranged, so should dps builds always do higher damage than tank builds...
I don't really see how this is relevant. Tank builds doing more damage than DPS builds is a problem with the excessive amounts of damage bonuses we get coupled with diminishing returns hitting hard early on. It's a different discussion entirely
Okay, I think I found the root of the issue w/ Annihilate. It could be human error, ofc, since I dun have macros to use, but it seems the activation time in the tooltip is off a bit. It lists 0.83, but it may be closer to 1.0 sec when done practically.
A ~5.5 min logged test I had w/ just tap-spamming counted 326 hits, which w/ the listed activation time would be only be 270.6 sec, or 4.5 mins. Again, there is some human error and parsing combat start/stop differences, but it should not be that large even when accounting for lag. I guess we'll just have to wait for a macro'd test, but the 0.83 activation time and 1.17 cast times did always strike me as a bit odd intervals to use (and the charge bar would then be a 1-sec one, which is modeled after ones they already widely use in-game).
The charge test was quite closer to its mark: 6 min 18sec logged, 180 hits. That gives 6 mins ideally (a diff of only 5%, vs. 23% for the tap test); rest is likely lag or human error.
That seems quite likely , I think there is going to turn out to be true for more powers.
Thus I may have to painstakingly combo through my base dps sheets again. And unlike w/ checking dmg values (which can be done pretty easily and quickly) verifying cast/activation times requires longer term parsing.......
UUUUUUGGGGHH! WHY YOU DO THIS TO ME, CRYPTIC!? What is this world..
I guess to make the load lighter I'd go by the assumption that its just an issue w/ the newer powersets and non-conventional times- ie. most things not in half, third, or integer intervals. Ofc, this could only be an issue w/ Annihilate, but can't know that for sure yet..
Thus I may have to painstakingly combo through my base dps sheets again. And unlike w/ checking dmg values (which can be done pretty easily and quickly) verifying cast/activation times requires longer term parsing.......
UUUUUUGGGGHH! WHY YOU DO THIS TO ME, CRYPTIC!? What is this world..
I guess to make the load lighter I'd go by the assumption that its just an issue w/ the newer powersets and non-conventional times- ie. most things not in half, third, or integer intervals. Ofc, this could only be an issue w/ Annihilate, but can't know that for sure yet..
I recall testing out full charge vs taps when making my list, and the only instance where full charge was better was Haymaker...since its kb bonus ramps up with charge. Looking at the log I was throwing in a charged chi fist now and thn for the dot, I neglected to note that down.
That is strange then. I have been using dragon's wrath on my ninja for 4 years, and I always got faster results with charging when doing things like killing mega destroids, and also when looking at my tests it is about a 10% difference.
I don't really see how this is relevant. Tank builds doing more damage than DPS builds is a problem with the excessive amounts of damage bonuses we get coupled with diminishing returns hitting hard early on. It's a different discussion entirely
That is debatable. When using a dps build, and test dps numbers in ranged damage role with a offense passive, dps is going to be very significantly higher than when testing in hybrid or tank role with a defense passive.
The reasons why we have tanks doing more damage than dps builds already is mostly that dps per power is all over the place, and there are a lot of very effective buffs/DoT/spike that you are more or less required to use if you want to make an high end build.
Thus I may have to painstakingly combo through my base dps sheets again. And unlike w/ checking dmg values (which can be done pretty easily and quickly) verifying cast/activation times requires longer term parsing.......
How did you get to the damage numbers in your dps chart? They dont seem to fit any tooltips?
No turbo/macros, so yes its all subject to some human error, and that's why I extended the test times. ~5% diff from parse to ideal isn't a stretch to account for that, though.
If you want to try to corroborate the data w/ better methods, please go ahead. Earlier tests from other people do seem to back what I found w/ Annihilate's tap time, I notice.
How did you get to the damage numbers in your dps chart? They dont seem to fit any tooltips?
Just followed the tooltips w/ the character parameters I outlined before. If I ever doubted or wanted to spot-check those values, I'd hit a dummy a few times to see if the base (in parenthesis) dmg number I was getting matched up w/ the tip. Haven't encountered any issues w/ the dmg values not syncing yet, and they seemed to check out w/ the earlier sheets Selphea made.. so I'm inclined to think they're okay for now.
Anyways, I started to dive into testing the other spells that could have faulty tool-tip cast times. More detailed doc here
Basic findings on what I could test before the shard dropped..
Cleave: Likely 1s / 1s / 1s combo time, instead of 0.83s / 0.83s / 1s.
Eruption: Likely 1sec activation time, instead of 0.83sec.
Arc of Ruin: Likely 1sec activation time and 1sec charge time, w/ total cast time unchanged.
Skullcrusher & Skewer: uncertain- activation time def seems to be longer than 0.67sec, though, w/ total cast time possibly unchanged.
Earth Splitter: Likely 1sec activation time and 1sec charge time, w/ total cast time unchanged.
Brimstone: see Earthsplitter, but taps not fully tested.
already I am seeing partly how HW is under-performing now.. if we assume they balanced around the tooltip times at least.
For ex. w/ Annihilate, by making its actual activation/tap time 1 sec, but not changing its total cast time, its base tap dps is now lower than its charged dps- and that doesn't follow the trend of the vast majority of other charged powers in this game (sans Skullcrusher, but Skullcrusher was designed to be a cheaper KD on tap, since its damage per energy goes *down* w/ charging, not up- which is def not the norm). Because Annihilate's dpe follows the trend in going up w/ charging, it wouldn't make sense to have the tap dps be lower than the charge for Annihilate.. I mean, that basically is designing the tap to have no use.
So it seems to me like Annihilate's current tool-tip numbers are the intended values, but its not what we're getting in effect (damage values match w/ dummy testing, activation times do not). Similar story w/ some other powers.
Back in the days of yonder there were a lot of complaints regarding the "UI Lag," ie pressing a power and then another power immediately and it not activating. A developer responded saying the game has a global cooldown between powers. I have no idea if this is, or was ever, true.
Edit: Someone just reminded me of the rapid fire ping pongs, so a GCD can be ruled out.
My only tests regarding this have been seeing how much time has to pass between pressing one power and pressing anotherfor the game to actually use the other power. I found if you rapidly rotate between two powers (in my case Conviction and Massacre) neither would go off. This is an interesting case as Conviction has no listed activation time.
I found that you have to wait about .3~.5 seconds before activating a different power for the game to actually use it. Would be nice if we had some options for the game to queue up powers.
I'm often seeing the issue w/ taps/instants, as most of the full-charge versions come back testing as expected (just tested Eldritch Blast and Stone Shot- weird behavior w/ tap-spamming, but giving back almost what's expected from the tool-tips in terms of cast times w/ the full-charged versions). I do notice an input delay, though, and its evident by many of the anims going zanzy and not having smooth transitions. I wonder if some of that delay is already baked into what the tooltips tell us..
I also just tested full charges of alternating between Gust (1.5s total cast, listed) and Stone Shot (2sec total cast, listed); the expected total test time based on #casts and the tooltip values aren't far off of the parsed time (51 casts each, 185 sec test time, 51*1.5 + 51*2 = 178.5 sec based on tooltips, or just a 3.6% difference).
So yeah, something about the longer operation of getting a charged spell out is maybe correcting for delay and giving results close to what one would expect form the toll-tip- this is w/ normal, manual input. The more you have to tap-spam or get closer to the 0.5-0.67 sec range between hits, the more wonky the test results get, perhaps due to human error and input delay not being granular enough. I'll see about re-testing stuff w/ a script, to see if that can be reduced.
The reasons why we have tanks doing more damage than dps builds already is mostly that dps per power is all over the place, and there are a lot of very effective buffs/DoT/spike that you are more or less required to use if you want to make an high end build.
I don't understand this statement. Why do you think DPS builds do less damage than a tank? I believe DPS roles with offensive passives do about 40-50% more damage than comparable builds in tanks.
Sometimes, a tank role can "make up" for some loss of dps by making themselves "squishier" i.e. use Brawler spec, mod for INT/STR/DEX instead of CON but still I think dps roles still come out ahead.
I don't understand this statement. Why do you think DPS builds do less damage than a tank? I believe DPS roles with offensive passives do about 40-50% more damage than comparable builds in tanks.
Sometimes, a tank role can "make up" for some loss of dps by making themselves "squishier" i.e. use Brawler spec, mod for INT/STR/DEX instead of CON but still I think dps roles still come out ahead.
"Some tanks" and "some dps builds", I didnt mean the exact same builds in dps or tank form. I think you'll be hard pressed making an earth dps build doing higher dps against a boss than a well optimized might tank with demolish/haymaker.
Comments
A few of those powers would have performed better at full charges.
I am too lazy for screenshots at this time, but here is some quick tests on a few powers. I removed crit gear, form, passive, and most specs, to make testing easier, so damage is low. And there isn't any power that takes advantage of crits there anyway and it is to show differences, the absolute numbers are not that interesting.
charges
Annihilate Crushing 50.0 71797.86 1435.9572 681.841 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33336
taps
Annihilate Crushing 104.0 73707.46 708.7256 694.69806 100.0 3.8461537 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.333336
charges
Dragon's Wrath Slashing 72.0 88411.25 1227.9341 778.26807 100.0 2.7777777 0.0 0.0 0.0 90.90909
taps
Dragon's Wrath Slashing 123.0 74236.55 603.54913 720.0441 100.0 1.6260163 0.0 0.0 0.0 90.909096
charges
Massacre Slashing 74.0 87145.88 1177.6471 754.5098 100.0 1.3513514 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33334
taps
Massacre Slashing 123.0 79857.875 649.25104 777.584 100.0 1.6260163 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33332
charges (note that on top of this, it also adds a small DoT this way)
Burning Chi Fist (M2s1qj) Crushing 63.0 78250.164 1242.066 767.15845 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.3334
taps
Burning Chi Fist Crushing 121.0 71292.734 589.19617 696.8987 100.0 1.6528926 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33335
charges
Haymaker Crushing 42.0 95269.07 2268.3113 887.87573 100.0 2.3809524 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33332
taps
Haymaker Crushing 130.0 63038.52 484.91168 572.0374 100.0 2.3076923 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.33331
My very point is tank vs dps balance there. I agree melee dps should do higher damage than ranged. But like melee should do higher dps than ranged, so should dps builds always do higher damage than tank builds, even comparing ranged dps to melee tanks. And that difference between tank vs dps should in my opinion be much higher than melee vs ranged. Of course the exact distinction between dps builds and tank builds is quite lost on CO, but that is one reason why AD/AO and specifically ego surge need some attention first.
So like I said in my other post, toning down ranged dps will make well performing melee tanks do more damage than most ranged dps builds, something I strongly disagree with.
And it is not like there never were any melee buffs, there also was a "melee pass" that for a very long time left ranged in the dust, and did exactly the melee tank outperforming ranged dps thing that I am arguing against. Unless of course they used things like enrage for ranged builds, which was an important reason why we got ranged forms.
Oh right melee forms specifically, I remember that one very well. MA forms and enrage were made exactly equal in scaling to concentration and all, to make "balancing things easier". They also weren't part of the actual On Alert patch that was in testing from february until march, but came a month after, that was not designed as a whole.
The difference is very small, almost non existant
Not quite, tacked on some more tests. Note that this is a str/con/rec build with 5 int, so the single concentration stack from tgm hardly does anything, and tgm loses some damage from not scaling with str. I hadn't planned on ranged tests...
Two-gun Mojo Piercing 208.0 77765.52 373.8727 723.4002 100.0 2.8846154 0.0 0.0 0.0 92.844444
Devour Essence Toxic 197.0 74317.055 377.24393 732.9098 100.0 1.0152284 0.0 0.0 0.0 83.333336
Well, not by my data. But you know the setup I have to use for my base dps work: no gear, lvl 40, no stars, hybrid role, no SS's, no passives or toggles or supporting powers, all stats at 5 (and no TP when looking at energy costs)- ie. as 'neutral' as I can get it atm.
Tooltip says Annihilate taps are 306 in those conditions.
Averaged 385.67 on the regen dummies w/ some testing (not using the final dmg #s, since they have base resist). That's a 26% increase, which is about the 25% I estimated before.
For full charge, tooltip: 731, regen dummy avg: 799. A 9.3% increase, about the 10% I estimated before. I could extend the tests, but I dun think it'll change the estimate.
And just to make sure, I quickly tested the base dmg versus the normal, knockable dummies and the number range I got matched the tooltip values for both.
Also to make sure it wasn't rank-based- did the same w/ rank 3 of the power. Taps: 441 vs. 542 (23%); charges: 1053 vs. 1169 (11%). Again, not long tests, but I think they suffice in getting the point across.
306/ 0.83 from the tooltip gives 368.7 base dps on tap; 731/ 2 = 365.5 base dps for charge
So, 25% boosts the tap to 460.9 dps, 10% boosts charge to 402.5 dps
It still sucks next to charged Haymaker w/ its bonus, at 633.. but then again, so do most attacks.
I mean, if I have a value off somewhere, I'd be happy to correct it, but anyone can strip a lvl 40 like I did and see it for themselves.
(oh, and it would be bad form of me to neglect, but thanks for taking the time out to run some tests)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I am not at home now, I'll try to rerun the tests without any ss, and just defense/utility gear with rec mods for energy management. That way crit chance is at 2.x%, offense at 0, and str/ego based damage strength should be low too. That would be interesting to compare to the theoretical dps potential.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I had only Bludgeon, Annihilate(rank 3), Circle of Arcane Power(Rank 3), oh and I had to pick up Guard and Decimate so i could get Annihilate but I never used them.
Gear was;
Primary offence Slot: N/A
Secondary Offence Slot: N/a
Primary Defense Slot: Legion's Breastplate of Agility (mods: Recovery 7 * 2 and one Dodge 7 + Defense 7)
Secondary Defense slot: Vigilante's armored Bracers
Primary utility Slot: Legion's helmet of Speed (mods: Recovery 7* 2 and Cost Discount 7 *2)
Secondary Utility Slot: Vigilante's Efficient Eyepiece
Anyway I do hope they are all fair for the test...they seemed so, all Stats apart from Recovery was 5.
And there was no Specs.
So..my results;
Melee DPS role (Taps)
Time: Test 1: 228.7s Test 2: 270.3s
Count: Test 1: 211 Test 2: 262
Avg mag: Test 1: 666.055 Test 2: 653.048
Critical chance: Test 1: 0.948% Test 2: 0.763%
TDPS: Test 1: 619.92 Test 2: 635.11
Melee DPS Role (Charge)
Time: Test 1: 240.2s Test 2: 318.2s
Count: Test 1: 110 Test 2: 147
Avg Mag: Test 1: 1411.961 Test 2: 1405.027
Critical Chance: Test 1: 2.727% Test 2: 1.361%
TPDS: Test 1: 652.58 Test 2: 654.64
Hybrid Role (Taps)
Time: Test 1: 216.4s Test 2: 337.8s
Count: Test 1: 204 Test 2: 314
Avg Mag: Test 1: 536.065 Test 2: 528.138
Critical Chance: Test 1: 2.451% Test 2: 2.866%
TPDS: Test 1: 507.22 Test 2: 504.98
Hybrid Role (Charge)
Time: Test 1: 260.2s Test 2: 326.4s
Count: Test 1: 119 Test 2: 150
Avg Mag: Test 1: 1107.351 Test 2: 1118.472
Critical Chance: Test 1: 0% Test 2: 2%
TPDS: Test 1: 510.35 Test 2: 516.695
I can understand there is still some Critical parts that are affects results and Chance are More tests are needed until there is 0% Critical on all tests, but from what i can see...Charging does just abit more overall DPS, Of course I could be wrong but that is how it looks to me?
Edit: There afew bits on these results bugging me so I want to redo them again sorry
Edit 2: There...Sorry about any confusion, But I wanted longer tests to try and help even Critical chance plus I redid the computer on m Main computer to reduce any performance problems my laptop might have given, anyway there results are about the same with afew difference here and there, Tapping did increase alittle thanks to my Computer responding faster
Alexandra
So really this analysis is complicated by playstyle and build. Personally I think melee dps is fine even tho all my melee toons suffer an LK or Elusive Monk debuff.
I recall testing out full charge vs taps when making my list, and the only instance where full charge was better was Haymaker...since its kb bonus ramps up with charge. Looking at the log I was throwing in a charged chi fist now and thn for the dot, I neglected to note that down.
I don't really see how this is relevant. Tank builds doing more damage than DPS builds is a problem with the excessive amounts of damage bonuses we get coupled with diminishing returns hitting hard early on. It's a different discussion entirely
A ~5.5 min logged test I had w/ just tap-spamming counted 326 hits, which w/ the listed activation time would be only be 270.6 sec, or 4.5 mins. Again, there is some human error and parsing combat start/stop differences, but it should not be that large even when accounting for lag. I guess we'll just have to wait for a macro'd test, but the 0.83 activation time and 1.17 cast times did always strike me as a bit odd intervals to use (and the charge bar would then be a 1-sec one, which is modeled after ones they already widely use in-game).
The charge test was quite closer to its mark: 6 min 18sec logged, 180 hits. That gives 6 mins ideally (a diff of only 5%, vs. 23% for the tap test); rest is likely lag or human error.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Thus I may have to painstakingly combo through my base dps sheets again. And unlike w/ checking dmg values (which can be done pretty easily and quickly) verifying cast/activation times requires longer term parsing.......
UUUUUUGGGGHH! WHY YOU DO THIS TO ME, CRYPTIC!? What is this world..
I guess to make the load lighter I'd go by the assumption that its just an issue w/ the newer powersets and non-conventional times- ie. most things not in half, third, or integer intervals. Ofc, this could only be an issue w/ Annihilate, but can't know that for sure yet..
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Were you using a macro or turbo button?
That is strange then. I have been using dragon's wrath on my ninja for 4 years, and I always got faster results with charging when doing things like killing mega destroids, and also when looking at my tests it is about a 10% difference.
That is debatable. When using a dps build, and test dps numbers in ranged damage role with a offense passive, dps is going to be very significantly higher than when testing in hybrid or tank role with a defense passive.
The reasons why we have tanks doing more damage than dps builds already is mostly that dps per power is all over the place, and there are a lot of very effective buffs/DoT/spike that you are more or less required to use if you want to make an high end build.
How did you get to the damage numbers in your dps chart? They dont seem to fit any tooltips?
If you want to try to corroborate the data w/ better methods, please go ahead. Earlier tests from other people do seem to back what I found w/ Annihilate's tap time, I notice.
Just followed the tooltips w/ the character parameters I outlined before. If I ever doubted or wanted to spot-check those values, I'd hit a dummy a few times to see if the base (in parenthesis) dmg number I was getting matched up w/ the tip. Haven't encountered any issues w/ the dmg values not syncing yet, and they seemed to check out w/ the earlier sheets Selphea made.. so I'm inclined to think they're okay for now.
Anyways, I started to dive into testing the other spells that could have faulty tool-tip cast times. More detailed doc here
Basic findings on what I could test before the shard dropped..
Cleave: Likely 1s / 1s / 1s combo time, instead of 0.83s / 0.83s / 1s.
Eruption: Likely 1sec activation time, instead of 0.83sec.
Arc of Ruin: Likely 1sec activation time and 1sec charge time, w/ total cast time unchanged.
Skullcrusher & Skewer: uncertain- activation time def seems to be longer than 0.67sec, though, w/ total cast time possibly unchanged.
Earth Splitter: Likely 1sec activation time and 1sec charge time, w/ total cast time unchanged.
Brimstone: see Earthsplitter, but taps not fully tested.
already I am seeing partly how HW is under-performing now.. if we assume they balanced around the tooltip times at least.
For ex. w/ Annihilate, by making its actual activation/tap time 1 sec, but not changing its total cast time, its base tap dps is now lower than its charged dps- and that doesn't follow the trend of the vast majority of other charged powers in this game (sans Skullcrusher, but Skullcrusher was designed to be a cheaper KD on tap, since its damage per energy goes *down* w/ charging, not up- which is def not the norm). Because Annihilate's dpe follows the trend in going up w/ charging, it wouldn't make sense to have the tap dps be lower than the charge for Annihilate.. I mean, that basically is designing the tap to have no use.
So it seems to me like Annihilate's current tool-tip numbers are the intended values, but its not what we're getting in effect (damage values match w/ dummy testing, activation times do not). Similar story w/ some other powers.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Edit: Someone just reminded me of the rapid fire ping pongs, so a GCD can be ruled out.
My only tests regarding this have been seeing how much time has to pass between pressing one power and pressing anotherfor the game to actually use the other power. I found if you rapidly rotate between two powers (in my case Conviction and Massacre) neither would go off. This is an interesting case as Conviction has no listed activation time.
I found that you have to wait about .3~.5 seconds before activating a different power for the game to actually use it. Would be nice if we had some options for the game to queue up powers.
I also just tested full charges of alternating between Gust (1.5s total cast, listed) and Stone Shot (2sec total cast, listed); the expected total test time based on #casts and the tooltip values aren't far off of the parsed time (51 casts each, 185 sec test time, 51*1.5 + 51*2 = 178.5 sec based on tooltips, or just a 3.6% difference).
So yeah, something about the longer operation of getting a charged spell out is maybe correcting for delay and giving results close to what one would expect form the toll-tip- this is w/ normal, manual input. The more you have to tap-spam or get closer to the 0.5-0.67 sec range between hits, the more wonky the test results get, perhaps due to human error and input delay not being granular enough. I'll see about re-testing stuff w/ a script, to see if that can be reduced.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Sometimes, a tank role can "make up" for some loss of dps by making themselves "squishier" i.e. use Brawler spec, mod for INT/STR/DEX instead of CON but still I think dps roles still come out ahead.
"Some tanks" and "some dps builds", I didnt mean the exact same builds in dps or tank form. I think you'll be hard pressed making an earth dps build doing higher dps against a boss than a well optimized might tank with demolish/haymaker.