...well, maybe a little, since I can't think of a more OP/boring setting or character than SS (imho).
Wolverine.
Edit: Oh, and oddly (or not), most of the villains I have written (not seen in-game enough, unfortunately) are more powerful than most of my heroes, (eg The Oz Crew).
Those are the best kind. It's great reading about impossible situations. Seeing a hero having to use more than just his powers to defeat a villain is great.
see I'd love some nice endgame challenges, both solo and team versions, where your one hero (or small team) is up against say a large viper army, or a Godlike supernatural being.
but things need to be balanced around the superhero concept. having hopeless situations is great and epic and all, and if/when we get the foundry I'll be making all kinds of them, but context, people, context.
What's wrong with Therakiel's Temple? Or the Nemesis missions? You literally save the entire world in those. Or are you basically asking for more, new epic storylines?
oh, and expand the nemesis system, Thundrax had some good ideas as to how, which did not include making the few worthwhile powers and combos still useful useless.
Oh. Well, yeah. More content is what everyone wants. :biggrin:
Those are the best kind. It's great reading about impossible situations. Seeing a hero having to use more than just his powers to defeat a villain is great.
Yep, and easier to troll with. Not that I advocate a troll per every encounter, but when used sparingly and done well, an OP Villain trolling the hero (and audience) at different points in the story really sets up that nice 'Yeeeaaah! Take that *&@%#!!!' when the Villain loses.
Edit: I would not know how something like this could be expressed in game mechanics though, especially in an MMO...
...well, except for maybe a glitched fight that's still winnable (if only by chance).
Those are the best kind. It's great reading about impossible situations. Seeing a hero having to use more than just his powers to defeat a villain is great.
Seeing a bunch of college interns with antennas kick the **** of a dark army with the power of black goo was kind of lame though :x
it's also fascinating to see the high and mighty know it alls reveal themselves in their true wolfy glory.
why don't you make some REAL solid arguments instead of slinging insults all the time? :rolleyes:
As the saying goes, when you live in a glass house, you shouldn't throw stones.
Your original OP was a basic apology/excuse for why nothing is challenging in this game and you've been back peddling/reversing gears when people bring up that it isn't exactly fun. And while people will say we can choose our level of difficulty, even the highest difficulty is only marginally so to the average build.
There use to be more mechanics to this game, but they have been thrown to the wayside in the sake of people just wanting bad guy smack downs in the long run. Therakiel's Temple use to be a lot harder, and this was before On Alert and the uber levels of power creep came into the game. Fights like Dracul actually required more than just being able to take his hit, since he actually used bite attacks and turned to bats to, but that hasn't been the case for a very long time. Even the Baron was substantially more involved than he is now. But that has all been nerfed down, again before On Alert made it even more trivial, all for the sake of people that believe only power makes a super hero, when it is the odds they over come that is what makes them who they are. Even in the face of their own demise.
Shadow Destroyer in Nemesis Confrontation is another prime example of a fight that use to be more involved and difficult but was so irrevocably nerfed down now. Getting the Dimensional Destroyer perk was a land mark when ti first came in, now, any group can do it with relative ease and Destroyer's damage is so pitiful now that you might as well say he's a normal encounter at this point just with an extra large pool of hit points.
You also like to claim Gravitar is a proper challenge to, which it isn't. It's random chance and at most just tedious for most people. In fact it's one of the few rampages people will jump on with regularity because it is an easy but tedious fight. It is the anti-team boss which doesn't help the long term of these encounters. When the goal is to worry more about yourself than the team then mechanically the boss fight is not good. That just makes the fight yet another fight designed in the same vein as the rest of the fights that are plaguing Champions with a group fo people doing their own thing instead of working as a team to reach a goal.
Originally these plans had been attempted in Champions, but they were removed because people thought it was unfair and didn't make their character feel super because they couldn't overpower a bad guy quickly. All the dungeons in this game had mechanics for these fights where working as a team was ideal. Dr. Destroyer's Factory you were suppose to drop molten lead on the Mega Destroid to make it vulnerable, White Rhino you were suppose to scare Dr Moreau away and counter his charge with block to inflict more damage on him, Ripper in the VIPER Nest you were suppose to actually destroy Draysha canisters near him to weaken him from Overdone, etc, but that just didn't happen because people didn't want that level of involvement or challenge and instead just wanted bosses they could beat on.
The problem is you've not produced a real debate to get involved with. I've been here a long time, and I've watched the devs nerf the game consistently and overbuff the players all for the sake of people that don't want that level of involvement and just want the power trip. And it's remarkable that in those years, a lot have left for the simple fact there is no reason to have super groups in this game because groups are not required, and there is nothing to challenge your super hero, making it tedious and boring instead of interesting and exciting.
So far I've yet to see you come up with a convincing argument one way or the other, and it seems that the past five years have had plenty of evidence that people out there want not only more content but content that challenges them. The difficulty slider is a complete bust, even at its highest difficulty when first implemented people said it was still too easy. So months later they added the elite difficulty, and it's still too easy for many people. People have also wanted team based content things that inspire teaming, and we've yet to get that. If you make a solo only option then it's not team based, especially if the rewards are always the same no matter the setting. Saying I have the option to run things on a team when I still get the same thing for the added challenge is missing the point by a complete mile.
This is something a lot of people like to overlook.
People will say...I like batman because he's normal and doesn't have superpowers and not OP...but yet he basically never loses...and always lives. Which as you say, makes him increadibly OP...given that he is human.
People complain about OP superhuman characters in RP...but if you're RP'ing a normal human character who can be killed just like a regular human, then you're RP'ing a character who is more OP than said superhuman character...because your character is somehow surviving every single encounter in the game, despite being "only human".
It's a catch-22 that no one seems to acknowledge.
Yeah, it always gets me when people complain about Superman being able to do anything, but then go on to talk about how great Batman is, and how he could even beat Superman...
Yeah, I have no idea what they are thinking, either.
=============
That being said....
I shouldn't be able to solo Qwijybo.
The game is free to define how powerful a character is, and the truth is that most of our blaster-type folks are weaker than that guy with the gun, because two-gun mojo is crazy.
But I still shouldn't be able to defeat Qwijybo on my own.
This isn't a comic, where a writer can decide that <villain> is a threat to <hero> because they want them to be.
It's a game, with numbers and formulas and things. It has rules.
They got too clever for their own good when making up all the different powers.
Unlike Champions where a blast is a blast is a blast and you add the effect seperately from the function, they tied the two together, and created interlocking reactions to doing different things that gave certain powers very specific advantages and disadvantages.
Early on they even tied powers to attributes, so you could build whatever hero you wanted, but there were right and wrong ways to build them (Super-Strong fire hero? Bad. Super-Presence fire hero? Good).
Anyway, yes.. Super-heroes are powerful. It doesn't mean that they are all all-powerful, and it doesn't mean that ultra-powerful heroes are automatically a better (or worse) story.
As the saying goes, when you live in a glass house, you shouldn't throw stones.
Your original OP was a basic apology/excuse for why nothing is challenging in this game and you've been back peddling/reversing gears when people bring up that it isn't exactly fun. And while people will say we can choose our level of difficulty, even the highest difficulty is only marginally so to the average build.
There use to be more mechanics to this game, but they have been thrown to the wayside in the sake of people just wanting bad guy smack downs in the long run. Therakiel's Temple use to be a lot harder, and this was before On Alert and the uber levels of power creep came into the game. Fights like Dracul actually required more than just being able to take his hit, since he actually used bite attacks and turned to bats to, but that hasn't been the case for a very long time. Even the Baron was substantially more involved than he is now. But that has all been nerfed down, again before On Alert made it even more trivial, all for the sake of people that believe only power makes a super hero, when it is the odds they over come that is what makes them who they are. Even in the face of their own demise.
Shadow Destroyer in Nemesis Confrontation is another prime example of a fight that use to be more involved and difficult but was so irrevocably nerfed down now. Getting the Dimensional Destroyer perk was a land mark when ti first came in, now, any group can do it with relative ease and Destroyer's damage is so pitiful now that you might as well say he's a normal encounter at this point just with an extra large pool of hit points.
You also like to claim Gravitar is a proper challenge to, which it isn't. It's random chance and at most just tedious for most people. In fact it's one of the few rampages people will jump on with regularity because it is an easy but tedious fight. It is the anti-team boss which doesn't help the long term of these encounters. When the goal is to worry more about yourself than the team then mechanically the boss fight is not good. That just makes the fight yet another fight designed in the same vein as the rest of the fights that are plaguing Champions with a group fo people doing their own thing instead of working as a team to reach a goal.
Originally these plans had been attempted in Champions, but they were removed because people thought it was unfair and didn't make their character feel super because they couldn't overpower a bad guy quickly. All the dungeons in this game had mechanics for these fights where working as a team was ideal. Dr. Destroyer's Factory you were suppose to drop molten lead on the Mega Destroid to make it vulnerable, White Rhino you were suppose to scare Dr Moreau away and counter his charge with block to inflict more damage on him, Ripper in the VIPER Nest you were suppose to actually destroy Draysha canisters near him to weaken him from Overdone, etc, but that just didn't happen because people didn't want that level of involvement or challenge and instead just wanted bosses they could beat on.
The problem is you've not produced a real debate to get involved with. I've been here a long time, and I've watched the devs nerf the game consistently and overbuff the players all for the sake of people that don't want that level of involvement and just want the power trip. And it's remarkable that in those years, a lot have left for the simple fact there is no reason to have super groups in this game because groups are not required, and there is nothing to challenge your super hero, making it tedious and boring instead of interesting and exciting.
So far I've yet to see you come up with a convincing argument one way or the other, and it seems that the past five years have had plenty of evidence that people out there want not only more content but content that challenges them. The difficulty slider is a complete bust, even at its highest difficulty when first implemented people said it was still too easy. So months later they added the elite difficulty, and it's still too easy for many people. People have also wanted team based content things that inspire teaming, and we've yet to get that. If you make a solo only option then it's not team based, especially if the rewards are always the same no matter the setting. Saying I have the option to run things on a team when I still get the same thing for the added challenge is missing the point by a complete mile.
I agree that the bosses should require more than a tank and spank mechanic. They should require some thought and tactics in order to succeed. They also need to improve the drops, especially from the lairs, as repeat runs soon become pointless and boring. The problem is not only did On Alert make us stronger, but they didn't make the mobs any stronger to compensate and in fact have nerfed many. I think it stems back to going FTP, the influx of new players took time to adapt to the mechanics of the game, so Cryptic listened too much to the voices saying the game was too difficult. The other issue was Alerts encouraged a zerg mentality as they were designed to be run very quickly and to be easy even for a complete newcomer. This encouraged leeching causing more frustrations.
When people say the game is too easy, there are those that say we are being elitist and that we have min/max builds. In my case i make concept toons and have yet to bother equipping them with any decent gear, as even on elite mode ,most of them can easily clear the majority of mobs and bosses in the game. If I wanted too I could easily make a build that could solo everything, but I prefer not too as I like some challenge which is why I play partially gimped toons. I am not bragging, I really am not a great gamer, but compared to the bosses in games like WoW, where it took many runs to work out a lair boss's mechanics, here the bosses are far too easy.
My other issue is that some of the recent rampages feel wrong. Personally Blaze and Frosticus neither look or feel like they should be able to take on 10 superheroes at once. Gravitar is only slightly better. If ten players are required, the boss should look epic. The Mega Destroyer is the exact opposite, looks epic, but can be soloed. Therakiel does this brilliantly. I remember running that lair with 4 people who had never done it before and no healer. It was very hard, as despite my guidance they didn't always remember and we would wipe. None the less after several hours we reached the end boss, albeit one man down, as he had to leave. The fight was epic, the 3 guys were in awe as they had never seen Therakiel and despite many wipes, the joy when he went down was palpable. We had tried numerous tactics, but with no healer it was hard. However, we ended up summoning as many pets as we could, thus drawing Therakiels hold away from us whilst we focused on him and we finally prevailed.
In short, Cryptic need to increase the challenge via the required use of tactics of at least the lairs and make rewards worthwhile. Make the boss fights look and feel epic
Yeah, it always gets me when people complain about Superman being able to do anything, but then go on to talk about how great Batman is, and how he could even beat Superman...
Yeah, I have no idea what they are thinking, either.
Hmmmm im in two minds about this, yes Supers are meant to be OP ...in the comics. But games I like to offer a bit of a challenge.
Well, it is a Superhero MMO, and the 'MMO' part can be just as important to keep in mind. The superhero theme basically means our challenges should be higher in stakes than for a typical DnD adventurer or local hero or w/e; but as a game if we want challenge, we should have it available regardless.
I agree that the bosses should require more than a tank and spank mechanic. They should require some thought and tactics in order to succeed. They also need to improve the drops, especially from the lairs, as repeat runs soon become pointless and boring. The problem is not only did On Alert make us stronger, but they didn't make the mobs any stronger to compensate and in fact have nerfed many. I think it stems back to going FTP, the influx of new players took time to adapt to the mechanics of the game, so Cryptic listened too much to the voices saying the game was too difficult. The other issue was Alerts encouraged a zerg mentality as they were designed to be run very quickly and to be easy even for a complete newcomer. This encouraged leeching causing more frustrations.
When people say the game is too easy, there are those that say we are being elitist and that we have min/max builds. In my case i make concept toons and have yet to bother equipping them with any decent gear, as even on elite mode ,most of them can easily clear the majority of mobs and bosses in the game. If I wanted too I could easily make a build that could solo everything, but I prefer not too as I like some challenge which is why I play partially gimped toons. I am not bragging, I really am not a great gamer, but compared to the bosses in games like WoW, where it took many runs to work out a lair boss's mechanics, here the bosses are far too easy.
Yeah, most of the content in this game isn't encouraging of teamplay at all.
I just got done w/ a rad rumble vs. Viper on one of my tanks. He's decent for threat, but he was getting held and knocked a ton in the alert, so he didn't have great uptime to gain aggro. 2 TGM users literally tunnel vision the boss w/ adds all around them, pulling aggro from me since I'm out for ~half the fight (and cause, ya know, TGM). After the boss goes down (way too easily as usual) the two of them run up to the hall's entryway and just sit there, while me and 2 healers had to clean up the remaining 20+ adds to end the alert.
That type of behavior just would not work in a game that fostered teamwork over solo'ing everything. CO's in-game community really frustrates me sometimes, but I guess years of pushover content w/ terrible power imbalance will do that to some players.
Yeah, most of the content in this game isn't encouraging of teamplay at all.
I just got done w/ a rad rumble vs. Viper on one of my tanks. He's decent for threat, but he was getting held and knocked a ton in the alert, so he didn't have great uptime to gain aggro. 2 TGM users literally tunnel vision the boss w/ adds all around them, pulling aggro from me since I'm out for ~half the fight (and cause, ya know, TGM). After the boss goes down (way too easily as usual) the two of them run up to the hall's entryway and just sit there, while me and 2 healers had to clean up the remaining 20+ adds to end the alert.
That type of behavior just would not work in a game that fostered teamwork over solo'ing everything. CO's in-game community really frustrates me sometimes, but I guess years of pushover content w/ terrible power imbalance will do that to some players.
Hear Hear! I can relate with this because it happened to me especially like that in Burst
People like this really Frustated me, and had the unfortunate to deal with them during Warlord and Hi-Pan farming
People Rushing to the Boss room locking everyone out, rushing and then refusing to wear the Power Armor to open the wall, using Ascension to Ditch teamates and Solo the Boss e.t.c e.t.c While I was trying to keep the PUG-TEAM together so we can get all to the Boss...
I was even putted on Ignore by someone because I told her to NOT running in Circles around Warlord or else his AoE attacks will hit us all!
Those 2 Weeks of farming really showed me the Worst of the Community, let me tell you that!
The Majority of the players who were farming those alerts was 2GM users... 2GM was obvious never putted on their Builds for Theme!
I do have 1 character who use 2GM... I tried to make her Build ONLY around 2GM... AND BOY I GOT BORED! Spamming and Relying only 1 attack didn't made it for me and made me realized that... heck I wasn't having fun with this build at all
So now she has 2GM among Bullet Breakdown, Lead Tempest, Void Shift, Dragon's Wrath, Sword Cyclone (+Butcher's Blades) for THEME (Bayonetta - Devil May Cry theme Build) and her build became 100% more fun for me
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Yeah, most of the content in this game isn't encouraging of teamplay at all.
I just got done w/ a rad rumble vs. Viper on one of my tanks. He's decent for threat, but he was getting held and knocked a ton in the alert, so he didn't have great uptime to gain aggro. 2 TGM users literally tunnel vision the boss w/ adds all around them, pulling aggro from me since I'm out for ~half the fight (and cause, ya know, TGM). After the boss goes down (way too easily as usual) the two of them run up to the hall's entryway and just sit there, while me and 2 healers had to clean up the remaining 20+ adds to end the alert.
That type of behavior just would not work in a game that fostered teamwork over solo'ing everything. CO's in-game community really frustrates me sometimes, but I guess years of pushover content w/ terrible power imbalance will do that to some players.
I feel for you. My main Witchfinder has had 2GM for years as it was thematic. Now many min/maxers are taking it. Sadly, it would seem the two players where trying to out dps each other. DPSers likw the ones you describe is the reason that so many other players despise them. Good dps players know when to hold back, to allow the tank to regain aggro and keep the mobs off the healers. I mean it's not rocket science to switch to the trash mobs when the take loses aggro is held. Lead tempest is awesome for clearing trash mobs and can give a nice dodge buff.
I feel for you. My main Witchfinder has had 2GM for years as it was thematic. Now many min/maxers are taking it. Sadly, it would seem the two players where trying to out dps each other. DPSers likw the ones you describe is the reason that so many other players despise them. Good dps players know when to hold back, to allow the tank to regain aggro and keep the mobs off the healers. I mean it's not rocket science to switch to the trash mobs when the take loses aggro is held. Lead tempest is awesome for clearing trash mobs and can give a nice dodge buff.
Part of the problem is not that DPSers are choosing to not let up in order to allow the tank to gain/keep aggro but rather that doing so is largely irrelevant in many (perhaps even most) encounters (particularly in something like Radiation Rumble).
Killing the mobs before they have time to do significant (or any) damage is a tactic, and in some encounters is just plain more effective than dialing back your DPS so that the tank can hold aggro.
Note that I do consider it obnoxious that the players in Flowtyco's example ignored the adds after the boss went down.
Currently, in much of the game, dialing back DPS in order to make aggro holding easier for the tank is comparable to shooting yourself in order to give a healer something to do in encounters where the mobs are not a real threat.
yup it does just come down to being able to get away w/ forgoing basic group dynamics just cause nothing really is a threat- and most players know that.
Fortunately, most of my group experiences in CO aren't bad, per se (guess I should be glad I dun run Hi-Pan or Warlord that often; exploiters tend to just make me ragequit), but I can def say that supplanting that style of play to many other MMOs would lead to widespread player deaths, party wipes, and such.
We do at least have lowbie XP alerts (lol) where teams of low level players 'inflated' to 30 have to play conservatively and help control mob aggro however they can (and also BLOCK) cause otherwise its easy to get stomped and enemies won't be dying very fast. As much as people dislike lowbie-ing through those alerts, it is closer to what MMO grouping actually feels like- and in the days of dead lairs, one active vestige that's left in our land of bite-sized content.
Part of the problem is not that DPSers are choosing to not let up in order to allow the tank to gain/keep aggro but rather that doing so is largely irrelevant in many (perhaps even most) encounters (particularly in something like Radiation Rumble).
Killing the mobs before they have time to do significant (or any) damage is a tactic, and in some encounters is just plain more effective than dialing back your DPS so that the tank can hold aggro.
Note that I do consider it obnoxious that the players in Flowtyco's example ignored the adds after the boss went down.
Currently, in much of the game, dialing back DPS in order to make aggro holding easier for the tank is comparable to shooting yourself in order to give a healer something to do in encounters where the mobs are not a real threat.
I agree entirely with you, but I said know when to hold back, not hold back all the time. For example in Fire and Ice it still makes sense for the tank to keep aggro on Frosticus, as he can one shot many players. I have seen many pugs when a dps player rushes in and starts to attack Frosticus even before the tank has arrived and then they promptly die. Also, when there are many adds, simply switching to the trash mobs to allow the tank to regain aggro makes perfect sense, as you are not reducing the amount of damage you are doing. Generally it is true that in CO, it makes more sense to go all out on the boss, which is why I said in another thread this game needs to have more tactics, for bosses at least. I hate they way they nerfed so many bosses because players couldn't think past a tank and spank mentality. Therakiel's lair is now far too easy because of this.
I agree entirely with you, but I said know when to hold back, not hold back all the time. For example in Fire and Ice it still makes sense for the tank to keep aggro on Frosticus, as he can one shot many players. Also, when there are many adds, simply switching to the trash mobs to allow the tank to regain aggro makes perfect sense, as you are not reducing the amount of damage you are doing. Generally it is true that in CO, it makes more sense to go all out on the boss, which is why I said in another thread this game needs to have more tactics, for bosses at least. I hate they way they nerfed so many bosses because players couldn't think past a tank and spank mentality. Therakiel's lair is now far too easy because of this.
Agreed. There are definitely exceptions. I commented mainly because of the specific example given (Radiation Rumble).
I know where it comes from. You can go to the Frank Miller Dark Knight story, where an aging Batman breaks out Kryptonite gloves to beat down a Superman that was less ravaged by time.
The point is that people complain about the "all-powerful" Superman being boring, but those same people love the "all-powerful" Batman and claim him to be the greatest character ever.
That makes no sense. Being able to defeat any challenge because you are super-powerful is no different than being able to defeat any challenge because you are super-intelligent or a super-tactician.
=============
But its not the same. Those are stories, with writers deciding who can do what.
Thios is supposed to be a game with a program making those decisions, and there are things like "balance" and "gameplay" that are supposed to be considered.
I know where it comes from. You can go to the Frank Miller Dark Knight story, where an aging Batman breaks out Kryptonite gloves to beat down a Superman that was less ravaged by time.
The point is that people complain about the "all-powerful" Superman being boring, but those same people love the "all-powerful" Batman and claim him to be the greatest character ever.
That makes no sense. Being able to defeat any challenge because you are super-powerful is no different than being able to defeat any challenge because you are super-intelligent or a super-tactician.
Actually, that makes perfect sense (not always in Batman's case), but tactics, training, equipment, and intelligence will win hands-down in any combat situation. Well, and logistics (which is where I call BS on Batman).
And a story about a guy who actually learns his adversary, plans around him, and then defeats someone is more interesting that someone who flies at them with his fists out. The only way Superman has become tolerable is because they've actually brought him down a few notches over the years.
But its not the same. Those are stories, with writers deciding who can do what.
Thios is supposed to be a game with a program making those decisions, and there are things like "balance" and "gameplay" that are supposed to be considered.
But Cryptic doesn't seem too worried about it.
The truth is, I half-blame the community for that.
Why don't they just have us beat up the low level trash in the opening cutscene? That way you can fantasize about your hero's power level, and we can save some time by getting the auto-win portion of the alert out of the way.
The logical next step would then be to take all those gimped smash alert bosses and have us beat them in a cutscene as well... since, honestly, that's what's going to happen anyway, and the fight itself isn't much longer than your average cutscene anyway.
If it's not about "facing a challenge" and just about "my character is stronger than those guys" then why waste time going through the same motions time and time again. Just slap together a cutscene, give us the reward, and let us get back to the tailor.
nice joke but its not constructive very much :rolleyes:
what I'm asking for is more epic enemies to fight once I get past low level. I really don't find it fun to beat up gangsters constantly as end game content.
I keep hearing COH had DIMENSIONAL INVASIONS to stop. I want more of those in CO. and stuff like that.
Oh silly me, all this time you were demanding that those pushover gangsters be present in every piece of content so that the game fits "the genre". When did you suddenly switch to thinking that after a certain level the enemies should no longer be pushovers? o_O
Gradii, I've gone around with you on this a few times, lol I think we both know where we fall on this issue. It does seem like your perspective has evolved, however. I definitely agree that the combat should be harder, and I personally do think like balancing should involve boosting UP the bad powers (barring 2 gun, that power needs a nerf incredibly badly) instead of the alternative. Make the mobs harder, I personally want mobs that debuff and CC us, so we have to focus on the debuffer or the fight will be harder. Generate more tactical encounters, I know we all burn down the brick busters when we're running Viper, for damn good reason. We kill the healer zombies in the desert first off, because it's annoying if you don't. I want more of that. But, the problem is the archetypes. We'll never see an AT rebuild, I'll bet, and they're simply too inefficient as they currently stand. To challenge a proper freeform, and that's not even to say an optimized one, the content will by and large steamroll most ATs. The reasons why are pretty diverse, but mostly it's that not only are ATs underpowered (soft cap aside), but they also can't self heal. Healers in this game are marginally useless most of the time, so they're not too often encountered, and that SUCKS when you're rolling an AT without a heal. How many times have you done a run with a glacier running point, and seen them slowly collapse because nobody can heal em? It's a serious problem, and we'll never see a buff of the mobs until it's addressed. Hence: I suspect any balance will probably involve nerfs. Especially considering the fact that Crush is a fan of the trinity, I expect we'll be going a bit further in that direction. The dodge nerf definitely proved that it might be the case. And, I mean, you gotta admit: It did have a pretty nice effect on the game in the long run. As long as they're that light handed with how they do the balancing, it could in fact end up well if we see a slight nerf.
What's most important is that we get some balance. The game drives me away randomly because I'm flat out bored with how trivial most of the content is. And running the same like 3 missions that give an actual challenge gets old fast. Hell, you run with me all the time. You probably know better than anyone how easily I get bored with combat here. There's a reason I spend most of my time discussing theorycraft, it's literally one of the only 3 things that keep me playing.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
I never got bored of one shotting fodder. but I want to have stuff which I don't one shot so long as it makes sense I'm not one shotting it.
Well too bad, cause someone's been going around arguing that the game is supposed to be easy and Cryptic has been listening. Take your complains to whoever that person is u3u
I find this threads OP entirely odd. Back on CoH and here on Co I never ever grew bored with doing abit of casual street sweeping. The very genre of the game made it feel far more fun then in any sword and sorcery MMO.
From Batman to superman to spiderman they all take time out to save the little guys from the small fries.
Not everyone is a free form well rounded build made to beat all content solo, for those who are not, they need the more every day foes to face.
Street sweeping is what you call it when you take your level 40 and go kill random thugs in westside
Nothing in actual level 40 content should be "street sweeping" though. Level 40 threats should match level 40 players, and no matter how "theme" your build is, that should still mean something.
And of course, going by "risk=reward", street sweeping should provide no reward. After all, when super man goes down and punches out a mugger, he doesn't then demand a monetary reward from the woman whose purse he then returns. :biggrin:
Superman also doesn't demand a monetary reward when he stops a meteor from destroying Metropolis, or when he puts down the latest plot from Darkseid. Your point?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Superman also doesn't demand a monetary reward when he stops a meteor from destroying Metropolis, or when he puts down the latest plot from Darkseid. Your point?
Well...thats not 100% accurate. Batman does make sure all the justice league that have alter egos with normal lives and normal jobs get compensated for loss of earnings when they have to zoom off and save the world.
I know ima being picky but I am a comic book nerd :P
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Superman also doesn't demand a monetary reward when he stops a meteor from destroying Metropolis, or when he puts down the latest plot from Darkseid. Your point?
Well Jon, that's not a valid point unless you're demanding the complete abolishment of the resources and gearing systems... since comic book characters by and large use neither. Superman doesn't live in a world where he has to pay to change his clothing and his powers. He doesn't need to buy gear and mods to stick in that gear, and questionite crates to buy a jet. Superman doesn't need anything, because he has no needs; if you had no needs and were invincible to all harm, you wouldn't ask for anything either.
However, if you suddenly put Superman into a world where he did need to do those things, you bet your furry beard he would be asking for some sort of reward when he stops a meteor. However, he would feel pretty lame asking for a reward for punching out some random mugger.
Well Jon, that's not a valid point unless you're demanding the complete abolishment of the resources and gearing systems... since comic book characters by and large use neither.
What about Iron Man? Batman? Spiderman? The Punisher? Blade? Hell I think the majority of the roster of super heroes actually uses equipment of some kind, so yes, they use the gearing system.
What about Iron Man? Batman? Spiderman? The Punisher? Blade? Hell I think the majority of the roster of super heroes actually uses equipment of some kind, so yes, they use the gearing system.
Unfortunately, the topic at hand is "getting paid for heroic acts" and whether super heroes should get paid/rewarded for minor acts that pose no risk to them whatsoever(keeping in mind we're approaching this from a video game standpoint, being that it's happening in a video game) not whether or not super heroes grab gear off the people they beat up and use it.
Comments
Wolverine.
Those are the best kind. It's great reading about impossible situations. Seeing a hero having to use more than just his powers to defeat a villain is great.
What's wrong with Therakiel's Temple? Or the Nemesis missions? You literally save the entire world in those. Or are you basically asking for more, new epic storylines?
Oh. Well, yeah. More content is what everyone wants. :biggrin:
Ugh, speaking of first/early issue(s) selling insanely well, my understanding is that Origins II is doing right by itself (sigh).
Yep, and easier to troll with. Not that I advocate a troll per every encounter, but when used sparingly and done well, an OP Villain trolling the hero (and audience) at different points in the story really sets up that nice 'Yeeeaaah! Take that *&@%#!!!' when the Villain loses.
Edit: I would not know how something like this could be expressed in game mechanics though, especially in an MMO...
...well, except for maybe a glitched fight that's still winnable (if only by chance).
Seeing a bunch of college interns with antennas kick the **** of a dark army with the power of black goo was kind of lame though :x
As the saying goes, when you live in a glass house, you shouldn't throw stones.
Your original OP was a basic apology/excuse for why nothing is challenging in this game and you've been back peddling/reversing gears when people bring up that it isn't exactly fun. And while people will say we can choose our level of difficulty, even the highest difficulty is only marginally so to the average build.
There use to be more mechanics to this game, but they have been thrown to the wayside in the sake of people just wanting bad guy smack downs in the long run. Therakiel's Temple use to be a lot harder, and this was before On Alert and the uber levels of power creep came into the game. Fights like Dracul actually required more than just being able to take his hit, since he actually used bite attacks and turned to bats to, but that hasn't been the case for a very long time. Even the Baron was substantially more involved than he is now. But that has all been nerfed down, again before On Alert made it even more trivial, all for the sake of people that believe only power makes a super hero, when it is the odds they over come that is what makes them who they are. Even in the face of their own demise.
Shadow Destroyer in Nemesis Confrontation is another prime example of a fight that use to be more involved and difficult but was so irrevocably nerfed down now. Getting the Dimensional Destroyer perk was a land mark when ti first came in, now, any group can do it with relative ease and Destroyer's damage is so pitiful now that you might as well say he's a normal encounter at this point just with an extra large pool of hit points.
You also like to claim Gravitar is a proper challenge to, which it isn't. It's random chance and at most just tedious for most people. In fact it's one of the few rampages people will jump on with regularity because it is an easy but tedious fight. It is the anti-team boss which doesn't help the long term of these encounters. When the goal is to worry more about yourself than the team then mechanically the boss fight is not good. That just makes the fight yet another fight designed in the same vein as the rest of the fights that are plaguing Champions with a group fo people doing their own thing instead of working as a team to reach a goal.
Originally these plans had been attempted in Champions, but they were removed because people thought it was unfair and didn't make their character feel super because they couldn't overpower a bad guy quickly. All the dungeons in this game had mechanics for these fights where working as a team was ideal. Dr. Destroyer's Factory you were suppose to drop molten lead on the Mega Destroid to make it vulnerable, White Rhino you were suppose to scare Dr Moreau away and counter his charge with block to inflict more damage on him, Ripper in the VIPER Nest you were suppose to actually destroy Draysha canisters near him to weaken him from Overdone, etc, but that just didn't happen because people didn't want that level of involvement or challenge and instead just wanted bosses they could beat on.
The problem is you've not produced a real debate to get involved with. I've been here a long time, and I've watched the devs nerf the game consistently and overbuff the players all for the sake of people that don't want that level of involvement and just want the power trip. And it's remarkable that in those years, a lot have left for the simple fact there is no reason to have super groups in this game because groups are not required, and there is nothing to challenge your super hero, making it tedious and boring instead of interesting and exciting.
So far I've yet to see you come up with a convincing argument one way or the other, and it seems that the past five years have had plenty of evidence that people out there want not only more content but content that challenges them. The difficulty slider is a complete bust, even at its highest difficulty when first implemented people said it was still too easy. So months later they added the elite difficulty, and it's still too easy for many people. People have also wanted team based content things that inspire teaming, and we've yet to get that. If you make a solo only option then it's not team based, especially if the rewards are always the same no matter the setting. Saying I have the option to run things on a team when I still get the same thing for the added challenge is missing the point by a complete mile.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yeah, it always gets me when people complain about Superman being able to do anything, but then go on to talk about how great Batman is, and how he could even beat Superman...
Yeah, I have no idea what they are thinking, either.
=============
That being said....
I shouldn't be able to solo Qwijybo.
The game is free to define how powerful a character is, and the truth is that most of our blaster-type folks are weaker than that guy with the gun, because two-gun mojo is crazy.
But I still shouldn't be able to defeat Qwijybo on my own.
This isn't a comic, where a writer can decide that <villain> is a threat to <hero> because they want them to be.
It's a game, with numbers and formulas and things. It has rules.
They got too clever for their own good when making up all the different powers.
Unlike Champions where a blast is a blast is a blast and you add the effect seperately from the function, they tied the two together, and created interlocking reactions to doing different things that gave certain powers very specific advantages and disadvantages.
Early on they even tied powers to attributes, so you could build whatever hero you wanted, but there were right and wrong ways to build them (Super-Strong fire hero? Bad. Super-Presence fire hero? Good).
Anyway, yes.. Super-heroes are powerful. It doesn't mean that they are all all-powerful, and it doesn't mean that ultra-powerful heroes are automatically a better (or worse) story.
I agree that the bosses should require more than a tank and spank mechanic. They should require some thought and tactics in order to succeed. They also need to improve the drops, especially from the lairs, as repeat runs soon become pointless and boring. The problem is not only did On Alert make us stronger, but they didn't make the mobs any stronger to compensate and in fact have nerfed many. I think it stems back to going FTP, the influx of new players took time to adapt to the mechanics of the game, so Cryptic listened too much to the voices saying the game was too difficult. The other issue was Alerts encouraged a zerg mentality as they were designed to be run very quickly and to be easy even for a complete newcomer. This encouraged leeching causing more frustrations.
When people say the game is too easy, there are those that say we are being elitist and that we have min/max builds. In my case i make concept toons and have yet to bother equipping them with any decent gear, as even on elite mode ,most of them can easily clear the majority of mobs and bosses in the game. If I wanted too I could easily make a build that could solo everything, but I prefer not too as I like some challenge which is why I play partially gimped toons. I am not bragging, I really am not a great gamer, but compared to the bosses in games like WoW, where it took many runs to work out a lair boss's mechanics, here the bosses are far too easy.
My other issue is that some of the recent rampages feel wrong. Personally Blaze and Frosticus neither look or feel like they should be able to take on 10 superheroes at once. Gravitar is only slightly better. If ten players are required, the boss should look epic. The Mega Destroyer is the exact opposite, looks epic, but can be soloed. Therakiel does this brilliantly. I remember running that lair with 4 people who had never done it before and no healer. It was very hard, as despite my guidance they didn't always remember and we would wipe. None the less after several hours we reached the end boss, albeit one man down, as he had to leave. The fight was epic, the 3 guys were in awe as they had never seen Therakiel and despite many wipes, the joy when he went down was palpable. We had tried numerous tactics, but with no healer it was hard. However, we ended up summoning as many pets as we could, thus drawing Therakiels hold away from us whilst we focused on him and we finally prevailed.
In short, Cryptic need to increase the challenge via the required use of tactics of at least the lairs and make rewards worthwhile. Make the boss fights look and feel epic
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA:_Tower_of_Babel
That's the general thought behind it.
And a little bit like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Well, it is a Superhero MMO, and the 'MMO' part can be just as important to keep in mind. The superhero theme basically means our challenges should be higher in stakes than for a typical DnD adventurer or local hero or w/e; but as a game if we want challenge, we should have it available regardless.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Yeah, most of the content in this game isn't encouraging of teamplay at all.
I just got done w/ a rad rumble vs. Viper on one of my tanks. He's decent for threat, but he was getting held and knocked a ton in the alert, so he didn't have great uptime to gain aggro. 2 TGM users literally tunnel vision the boss w/ adds all around them, pulling aggro from me since I'm out for ~half the fight (and cause, ya know, TGM). After the boss goes down (way too easily as usual) the two of them run up to the hall's entryway and just sit there, while me and 2 healers had to clean up the remaining 20+ adds to end the alert.
That type of behavior just would not work in a game that fostered teamwork over solo'ing everything. CO's in-game community really frustrates me sometimes, but I guess years of pushover content w/ terrible power imbalance will do that to some players.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Hear Hear! I can relate with this because it happened to me
People like this really Frustated me, and had the unfortunate to deal with them during Warlord and Hi-Pan farming
People Rushing to the Boss room locking everyone out, rushing and then refusing to wear the Power Armor to open the wall, using Ascension to Ditch teamates and Solo the Boss e.t.c e.t.c While I was trying to keep the PUG-TEAM together so we can get all to the Boss...
I was even putted on Ignore by someone because I told her to NOT running in Circles around Warlord or else his AoE attacks will hit us all!
Those 2 Weeks of farming really showed me the Worst of the Community, let me tell you that!
The Majority of the players who were farming those alerts was 2GM users... 2GM was obvious never putted on their Builds for Theme!
I do have 1 character who use 2GM... I tried to make her Build ONLY around 2GM... AND BOY I GOT BORED! Spamming and Relying only 1 attack didn't made it for me and made me realized that... heck I wasn't having fun with this build at all
So now she has 2GM among Bullet Breakdown, Lead Tempest, Void Shift, Dragon's Wrath, Sword Cyclone (+Butcher's Blades) for THEME (Bayonetta - Devil May Cry theme Build) and her build became 100% more fun for me
I feel for you. My main Witchfinder has had 2GM for years as it was thematic. Now many min/maxers are taking it. Sadly, it would seem the two players where trying to out dps each other. DPSers likw the ones you describe is the reason that so many other players despise them. Good dps players know when to hold back, to allow the tank to regain aggro and keep the mobs off the healers. I mean it's not rocket science to switch to the trash mobs when the take loses aggro is held. Lead tempest is awesome for clearing trash mobs and can give a nice dodge buff.
Part of the problem is not that DPSers are choosing to not let up in order to allow the tank to gain/keep aggro but rather that doing so is largely irrelevant in many (perhaps even most) encounters (particularly in something like Radiation Rumble).
Killing the mobs before they have time to do significant (or any) damage is a tactic, and in some encounters is just plain more effective than dialing back your DPS so that the tank can hold aggro.
Note that I do consider it obnoxious that the players in Flowtyco's example ignored the adds after the boss went down.
Currently, in much of the game, dialing back DPS in order to make aggro holding easier for the tank is comparable to shooting yourself in order to give a healer something to do in encounters where the mobs are not a real threat.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Fortunately, most of my group experiences in CO aren't bad, per se (guess I should be glad I dun run Hi-Pan or Warlord that often; exploiters tend to just make me ragequit), but I can def say that supplanting that style of play to many other MMOs would lead to widespread player deaths, party wipes, and such.
We do at least have lowbie XP alerts (lol) where teams of low level players 'inflated' to 30 have to play conservatively and help control mob aggro however they can (and also BLOCK) cause otherwise its easy to get stomped and enemies won't be dying very fast. As much as people dislike lowbie-ing through those alerts, it is closer to what MMO grouping actually feels like- and in the days of dead lairs, one active vestige that's left in our land of bite-sized content.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I agree entirely with you, but I said know when to hold back, not hold back all the time. For example in Fire and Ice it still makes sense for the tank to keep aggro on Frosticus, as he can one shot many players. I have seen many pugs when a dps player rushes in and starts to attack Frosticus even before the tank has arrived and then they promptly die. Also, when there are many adds, simply switching to the trash mobs to allow the tank to regain aggro makes perfect sense, as you are not reducing the amount of damage you are doing. Generally it is true that in CO, it makes more sense to go all out on the boss, which is why I said in another thread this game needs to have more tactics, for bosses at least. I hate they way they nerfed so many bosses because players couldn't think past a tank and spank mentality. Therakiel's lair is now far too easy because of this.
Agreed. There are definitely exceptions. I commented mainly because of the specific example given (Radiation Rumble).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Same with the people who think it's more important to pose for the ending cutscene than find the adds who are still alive in a timed alert.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I know where it comes from. You can go to the Frank Miller Dark Knight story, where an aging Batman breaks out Kryptonite gloves to beat down a Superman that was less ravaged by time.
The point is that people complain about the "all-powerful" Superman being boring, but those same people love the "all-powerful" Batman and claim him to be the greatest character ever.
That makes no sense. Being able to defeat any challenge because you are super-powerful is no different than being able to defeat any challenge because you are super-intelligent or a super-tactician.
=============
But its not the same. Those are stories, with writers deciding who can do what.
Thios is supposed to be a game with a program making those decisions, and there are things like "balance" and "gameplay" that are supposed to be considered.
But Cryptic doesn't seem too worried about it.
Actually, that makes perfect sense (not always in Batman's case), but tactics, training, equipment, and intelligence will win hands-down in any combat situation. Well, and logistics (which is where I call BS on Batman).
And a story about a guy who actually learns his adversary, plans around him, and then defeats someone is more interesting that someone who flies at them with his fists out. The only way Superman has become tolerable is because they've actually brought him down a few notches over the years.
The truth is, I half-blame the community for that.
The logical next step would then be to take all those gimped smash alert bosses and have us beat them in a cutscene as well... since, honestly, that's what's going to happen anyway, and the fight itself isn't much longer than your average cutscene anyway.
If it's not about "facing a challenge" and just about "my character is stronger than those guys" then why waste time going through the same motions time and time again. Just slap together a cutscene, give us the reward, and let us get back to the tailor.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It had some pretty intense content. Granted, it was a 'slower' combat, and that helps. But those invasions were cool. And the Hamidon raids.
Oh silly me, all this time you were demanding that those pushover gangsters be present in every piece of content so that the game fits "the genre". When did you suddenly switch to thinking that after a certain level the enemies should no longer be pushovers? o_O
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
...no seriously, when did this start? You finally get bored of one-shotting fodder?
Also I have the perfect place where we can keep the gangsters... in west side... as low level trash.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Screw that. I hate you.
All kidding aside, never been part of of a forum with this many nice people.
What's most important is that we get some balance. The game drives me away randomly because I'm flat out bored with how trivial most of the content is. And running the same like 3 missions that give an actual challenge gets old fast. Hell, you run with me all the time. You probably know better than anyone how easily I get bored with combat here. There's a reason I spend most of my time discussing theorycraft, it's literally one of the only 3 things that keep me playing.
RIP Caine
You know, they pay you to come up with good ideas.
That's why you have yet to receive a pay check for what you do here. u_u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The cuddly warmth of every player in the game having nothing but pure, unconditional love for me is my payment.
Well too bad, cause someone's been going around arguing that the game is supposed to be easy and Cryptic has been listening. Take your complains to whoever that person is u3u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
From Batman to superman to spiderman they all take time out to save the little guys from the small fries.
Not everyone is a free form well rounded build made to beat all content solo, for those who are not, they need the more every day foes to face.
Nothing in actual level 40 content should be "street sweeping" though. Level 40 threats should match level 40 players, and no matter how "theme" your build is, that should still mean something.
And of course, going by "risk=reward", street sweeping should provide no reward. After all, when super man goes down and punches out a mugger, he doesn't then demand a monetary reward from the woman whose purse he then returns. :biggrin:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Well...thats not 100% accurate. Batman does make sure all the justice league that have alter egos with normal lives and normal jobs get compensated for loss of earnings when they have to zoom off and save the world.
I know ima being picky but I am a comic book nerd :P
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Well Jon, that's not a valid point unless you're demanding the complete abolishment of the resources and gearing systems... since comic book characters by and large use neither. Superman doesn't live in a world where he has to pay to change his clothing and his powers. He doesn't need to buy gear and mods to stick in that gear, and questionite crates to buy a jet. Superman doesn't need anything, because he has no needs; if you had no needs and were invincible to all harm, you wouldn't ask for anything either.
However, if you suddenly put Superman into a world where he did need to do those things, you bet your furry beard he would be asking for some sort of reward when he stops a meteor. However, he would feel pretty lame asking for a reward for punching out some random mugger.
That's my point
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
What about Iron Man? Batman? Spiderman? The Punisher? Blade? Hell I think the majority of the roster of super heroes actually uses equipment of some kind, so yes, they use the gearing system.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Unfortunately, the topic at hand is "getting paid for heroic acts" and whether super heroes should get paid/rewarded for minor acts that pose no risk to them whatsoever(keeping in mind we're approaching this from a video game standpoint, being that it's happening in a video game) not whether or not super heroes grab gear off the people they beat up and use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.