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Trinity thoughts are boring me...
ilztas
Posts: 95 Arc User
Is it weird to say that I don't feel like being a DPSer, tanker or healer?
I keep trying to think up something outside the box, like crowd control or utility, though at the moment, I've sorta hit a mental roadblock and can't seem to budge. I've been contemplating just returning to this style:
http://tinyurl.com/p8bvlyb
...but I'm not sure I want to, since I'd like to be useful for teams in rampages n' such. The setup would allow me to debuff a boss's resistance to damage up to 29% though... and Aura of Arcane Clarity's a personal choice. It's an underestimated aura, and I've got 668 Presence at the moment to empower it, bringing it up to +85% cost/cooldown reduction for my teammates. Also, Protection Field allows me to survive against Gravitar's indiscriminate attack pattern, so health isn't an issue.
Kind of a shame we don't have methods of, say, giving attackers and/or attacks against teammates a chance to miss.
I keep trying to think up something outside the box, like crowd control or utility, though at the moment, I've sorta hit a mental roadblock and can't seem to budge. I've been contemplating just returning to this style:
http://tinyurl.com/p8bvlyb
...but I'm not sure I want to, since I'd like to be useful for teams in rampages n' such. The setup would allow me to debuff a boss's resistance to damage up to 29% though... and Aura of Arcane Clarity's a personal choice. It's an underestimated aura, and I've got 668 Presence at the moment to empower it, bringing it up to +85% cost/cooldown reduction for my teammates. Also, Protection Field allows me to survive against Gravitar's indiscriminate attack pattern, so health isn't an issue.
Kind of a shame we don't have methods of, say, giving attackers and/or attacks against teammates a chance to miss.
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Nope, this is Champions Online.
/thread
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My good buddy James helped me with the finishing touches, and reorganized it in line with archetype thoughts. Who knows, maybe it'll be a relaxing change of pace.
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Ilztas
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Presence (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: Mind over Matter
Level 6: Indomitable
Level 9: Intimidating
Level 12: Showmanship
Level 15: Wordly
Level 18: Lasting Impression
Level 21: Tireless
Powers:
Level 1: Kinetic Darts
Level 1: Telekinetic Assault (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Telekinetic Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3, Telekinetic Reinforcement)
Level 8: Ego Form (Rank 2, Rank 3, Id Blades)
Level 11: Sigils of Radiant Sanctuary (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Concentration
Level 17: Lifedrain (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Skarn's Bane
Level 23: Psychic Vortex (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Circle of Arcane Power (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Ebon Ruin
Level 32: Rebirth
Level 35: Divine Renewal
Level 38: Mind Link (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Mystic Flight (Rank 2)
Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (3/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (2/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)
I found mind link very underwhelming, despite looking great by the description. You'd best try before you commit.
Like, why the adv for ID blades? Why Ebon Ruin w/o Paranormal adv? You could use Lifedrain as a hybrid dps and heal spell, but not w/o Vampiric Sympathy and a means of applying Fear (w/o it you have no actual ally heals- though a res). You also don't have a good way of using Ego Leech stacks built up from TK Assault.
If you wanted to make good use of Pres as a SS, you should prob stick w/ an Aura as a passive- assuming you want a more offense-oriented build here, AoED or AoPM would be nice (w/o and aura or being a healer, SSing Pres is kinda pointless since it gives most of its additive +heal benefit to a stat of 70- which you don't need to SS it for). I can understand taking Ego Form if ur going to be in the ranged role, but then you'd prob want to change Pres SS for something else.
Also add me to the 'not-impressed' group for Mind Link.
(an arcane hybrid/support template, if you dun mind me taking a stab at it- toggle could prob be Conc or Manipulator as well, depending on ur goals. Just trying to expand on some ideas here that could prove to be practical)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The hilariousness of this statement is overwhelming at times. Obsolete MMO? Which obsolete MMO do you mean? The one with a few million subscribers or the new ones coming out that already say they will be using the trinity. For someone telling others not to force ideals down your throat you certainly like shoving your's down others.
And to put it another way since I know you will use it, yea we are super heroes but we are fighting super villains, meaning they should be as strong if not stronger than us. A super hero or super team is made by the challenges they have to face and over come that far exceed them.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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If many people are doing something wrong, it does not make it any less wrong. Trinity is boring and stupid and comes out of the very oldest of games, that did it that way because it worked for them. That was fine. There are many other ways one can set up a game, many of which have existed and do exist in various places.
The original seed from which the tropes used in the first MUDs (followed by graphical MMOs) came is arguably various forms of D&D. D&D is not and never has been a "trinity" game design; healing has NEVER scaled enough and D&D melee NEVER had aggro control. Its descendants are still played by many, and those things still apply, although the latest forms grant either minor aggro control (4e) or make melee "tanks" into crowd control experts (PF).
CoH was much loved for not forcing trinity; healing didn't scale there either, and buffs were far more important that heals. Good support made the rest of the team into walking gods, then worked to keep themselves safe and able to offer that support. Now and they, they would toss a top off heal. This worked great and was popularly seen as fun.
Other tactical systems exist that are not "trinity" yawnfests. This sin't the issue. The issue is in people who for whatever reason are unable to think outside of their tiny and self-constructed box.
I ll not talk about how trinity must work in CO or how it must be excluded from CO, nor I ll analyze your build. From what I m reading I see a guy who is rebuilding his character not because he wants to improve/modify his build, but because he thinks he is not useful in a team. And I think you are totally wrong doing that. You must play the build you enjoy to play, that's why CO is different than other MMOs and if you think you are not helpful in a team you are also wrong. I teamed with you in some F&I alerts (which is possible the more trinity of the alerts) and you did very good in all of them.
When you enter in a team setting this is where those fluid builds adapt into "roles". There will always be a heal role. This isn't necessarily a specific character, this is also in the forms of self heals and protective measures like the shields and bubbles that certain powers have. That means in any fight you WILL have to heal, no matter the source. So take that support role, and and maybe they need some help in taking down the bad guys because they are hitting too hard and can't heal fast enough. So enter the "tank" or really any build that attracts aggro and isn't gonna go poof in one or two hits. Granted this is unavoidable with some enemies, but in normal team settings they can take most of the damage so that others don't keep dying over and over.
So ok, now what about the rest of the team? No matter if you can manage to keep alive or to keep the big guy's attention from time to time, you are a DPS. It's the biggest and most varied "role" in games like Champions. Now, that's not to say that you can't blur lines (and many builds do exactly that) but the main intent of your build is to hit, and hit hard/often. This includes all forms of spells, melee damage, ranged attacks, or anything we can imagine in between.
So, take a team of all hybrids. They all have different powers and their own heals, and are pretty tough on their own. This is where my personal experience comes in since I considered Bunni under the average hybrid build (when she was a FF that is). So this team comes in and runs through the mobs fairly easily... but what about big bad guy? It truly depends. For most enemies Bunni can focus attacks on the main enemy while popping her self heals when needed. Some builds may not have enough heals to make it on their own, or maybe not quite enough damage output in comparison to their team mates. For example being a melee build, Bunni is not ideal for fighting Gravitar since avoiding her bubbles is a pain, even with lunges. Does this make her horrible? Nope. What it helps me to see, is that each build still has a strength and a weakness, and that certain builds will be more effective at not dying over others. That means on a team, I'd need more help with heals, or even a rez or two, than I would over other players. It also means that in other fights I can attract the attention of an entire room and still stand while my team helps mow them down. Yet I still consider her a DPS because that's her main "role" in teams.
Even on your own you follow trinity. You take on bad guys and don't fall down easily, that's because you are healing yourself, as well as tanking them. Any damage falls under DPS, which is what you use to take out your enemies quickly, or at least before they take you out. Dress it up and call it whatever names you'd like, any game is still a trinity game. The difference is that in games like Champs, you can be much more fluid between the three.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Boosted defense makes one tankier, repair is self heals, damage enhancement makes one DPS-ier. Freedom is "N/A" because it's pretty much inherent. Freedom means you have options to act; you can move around and hit things.
"Other" is teammate effects - Defense means you can buff a teammate's defenses substantially and actively to protect them from harm, Repair means you can heal them, Damage enhancement makes you able to empower your teammates to hit harder, rather than just hitting things yourself, Freedom means you can help your teammates to stay mobile and give them more range and keep their attacks coming up fast.
"Enemy" means you are removing that capacity from your foes. Defense makes you able to wreck their defenses; repair disrupts their ability to heal; Damage means that the enemy's ability to do damage to your team is being impaired directly, keeping your team alive; Freedom makes the enemy unable to act at all.
YES means that there's lots of options to do this; NO means that there are no direct options to help here, or if there are, they are very circumstantial; "meh" means that there are effects that do this, but not as a main effect and as a result, nothing that you can really consider to be a character focus so much as a power quirk.
Defense enhancement:
Self - YES; Other - NO!; Enemy - meh
Repair:
Self - YES; Other - YES; Enemy - YES
Damage enhancement:
Self - YES; Other - NO!; Enemy - meh
Freedom:
Self - n/a; Other - NO!; Enemy - Limited
Please note that outside of the "Trinity", all that remains is self-heals, control powers that break on damage that are only useful against enemies that aren't a threat, and a very situational enemy healing prevention which is irrelevant in most content.
If I had "Freedom", I would be able to build a character around those "No" and "meh" points. I could show up with a character whose focus was on reducing an enemy to helplessness and be effective. I could focus my might on my allies and turn them into juggernauts without throwing a single heal.
As it stands, I can't. Which makes the game much more boring.
While it's durable it isn't made for drawing aggro like a true tank, and the damage it does is spike damage not dps, and of course has no heals, but can use defensive buffs. It fits in a middle ground but is very capable all around, great for soloing. But on a team as no set role.
You can argue that crowd control is a debuff that reduces the target's damage to 0
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
This is exactly why calls for the game to be "less of a trinity" or "to not focus on trinity" come off as ridiculous. Playing a freeform hybrid does not exclude the player from trinity, but only to make him or her able to fulfill multiple trinity roles on the fly.
If the developers come up with some outlandish idea of making certain content in the game based on anything other than damage dealing, like puzzle-solving or platforming skills to escape from a villain's labyrinth of deathtraps for e.g. and get it to actually work, then the anti-trinity crowd would be welcome to gloat about being right. Until then the game is always going to be about combat and damage dealing/mitigation.
Agreed, and CO has never that kind of game.
Well we did a race at one point, I liked that.
Strawman. Nobody is calling for combat to stop involving delivering and mitigating damage, only for the methods by which those tasks are done to open up to create more variety in role and tactics.
Right.
After all, comics themselves don't match the holy trinity, yet they've had no trouble beating up bad guys for 80 or 90 years.
As long as combat is centered around delivering and mitigating damage, I don't see a lot of variety in roles and tactics that can be put out that's considered deviating away from trinity aspects, because trinity-defined roles, be it from archetypes or freeform hybrids, are still going to be relevant no matter what.
However, I don't think I've ever seen Doomsday or Zod or Galactus or Dark Phoenix slip on an ice patch, and that's the Cosmic level of villains that the Rampages are supposed to represent.
That said, I don't think it helps that the toughest villains in the game are supposed to be a giant C-3PO, a tentacle monster, Paris Hilton and a fridge repairman.
Sinestro isn't a Cosmic
I didn't say people are calling for that- my reply wasn't attacking any particular argument, but just providing some thoughts as to why the trinity seems to be so well established and what could be done to lessen its influence. I dun think we actually disagree on the premise that for the game to be less trinity-focused, combat scenarios need to open up more, away from just 'kill or be killed'. What if you had to control property/collateral dmg on the fly too, and much more prominently? And/or had to control the morale of ur allies or ur opponent w/ convo options or fighting in the right environment? Or actually had an affinity/weakness system in place that mattered? Just as examples to make the game less trinity-focused (not that CO can afford do these sorta things now; unfortunately it really can't, imo).
That's all cool, but it all boils down to diff examples of CC setups- at least when translated to an MMORPG system.
I mean, CO isn't an action game- not enough to simulate a comic book style encounter with very high fidelity imo. Its an MMORPG before its anything else, so one can only expect so much from its combat (considering its dev time and limits, I'd say it handles being a comic-book style MMORPG pretty well compared to other themed MMORPGs on the market- licensing issues aside).
It sounds like CoX had a stronger (or at least more versatile) CC system than CO. Alright, but that wouldn't be a strong argument against trinity as much as its a call to make CO's CC system more versatile (since any role can have CC- esp thanks to FF).
as an aside- Damage shields are commonly lumped into 'healing', in MMO terms, since many types of healers can have them as part of their normal repertoire.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Crowd Control.
Crowd Control.
DPS.
Crowd Control.
CoX reflected superhero roles commonly found in comic books. I know; I've played it. However that's not to say that CO isn't doing the same thing.
Crowd Control.
Buffer.
Exactly. What you're asking is more variety of playstyles that are still trinity-based and they seem to be focused on CC. You aren't really asking for anything different that what the trinity mechanic is fundamentally about.
Buffers and Crowd Control are both non-Trinity.
I'm going to point out the best example to counter this claim: D&D Clerics.
They don't just heal. They also have single-target and party buffs. Bless Weapon? Prayer?
Both D&D Clerics and Mages also have general buff and crowd control spells. Mage Armor? Hold Person?
Reason why I'm using D&D as a relevant example is because D&D pretty much is the most well-known source for introducing the whole holy trinity concept of roleplaying gaming that many later games follow to this date, including this one and most certainly CoX. Buffs and Crowd Control are most definitely part of the trinity.
Jenny did not say anything about healing. She mentioned mitigating damage, Your examples, ice slick, time manipulation, mind controller, etc are all examples of means of mitigating foes' damage output, as Jenny said.
The difference is that it appears that COH had more options for active mitigation of foes' offensive output than is the case in CO. That is awesome (IMO). I prefer active play over passive.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
er, no. WoW, the quintessential trinity MMO, has plenty of debuffs, buffs, and CC spread around every class (pvp'ers would argue too much CC, but that's beside the point); many other games copy or have this system. In CO, you have them spread around all the roles and power trees. CC, buffs, and debuffs aren't non- or anti-trinity as much as their own indep system in these sort of games- at least, because buffs/debuffs/CC aren't often given at the expense of abilities that are essential to any trinity role (there'd have to be some notable cost to having them to make it impact trinity, instead of being 'tacked-on' effects or 'perks' for bringing a certain unit).
Now you could have roles devoted to CC, but CO isn't a game where having a committed CC role would be balanced around most content. It just doesn't support it atm (well, unless all you do is solo or henchie fighting).
There aren't many options to make a 'buffer' build in CO (pretty much one style, and Iiz's original mitigation build w/ sigils, redirect force, AoRP, etc- was essentially this- and even that is more a healer/mitigator split), but CO has tons of debuffs that you certainly could build a 'debuffer' in a variety of ways- and unlike CC it would be relevant to all types of combat.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Crystal's always been a magic user. Originally a Grimoire with heterochromia - one eye glowed purple with magic a la Code Geass, she eventually evolved to have both eyes glowing due to a Gold Retrain to Shadow Form, eventually becoming today's bad girl mage with heavy inspiration drawn from Tank Girl. She was an Ice Form build for a while because I was curious about Ice Blast, then Stormbringer for a while because that was my only character and I wanted to farm with a 360 degree AoE. Her current build is based on "I wonder what I'd need to solo F&I when it comes out". I refined my solo Mega-D Terminator build (itself a refinement of Crystal's original Freeform build) to see if that would work - and surprise, it did! But in a PUG I'd queue her as a DPS even if she won't top the charts with this build, simply because she can't really fill the other two roles.
Aeria was conceptualized as Crystal's sister and rival, and a Hurricane build waaaay back when the Squall AT and Wind set was introduced and I was a freshly-minted Gold player. I saw Hurricane in action and was like "Whoa! I WANT THAT :O!". Being Wind-based, I loosely based her look on Goeniko, the female version of the Wind boss in The King of Fighters '96. She later became my test character for the two oddball Primary stats - Rec and End, and she's been Fire, Toxic, Lightning and finally settled back on Wind/Lightning. If you've been around long enough, you may remember me asking what Primary Rec was good for - that was for Aeria. She's Primary Ego now, and she's still my go-to character if I want no-nonsense PvE farming. Also queues as DPS because no CC for tanking, and no Rez for healing. But tanks Gravitar fine in a pinch.
Mecha-Arisa was... the convergence of many many things. One would be my gynoid character on Phantasy Star Universe, who was a Guntecher - a support class proficient in ranged weapons and Technics, i.e. magic. Another would be AoPM's effect, which reminded me of the GN Particle wings of O-Gundam. AoPM also had a gameplay effect similar to Trans-Am Burst, caused by the same series' GN Particles: making people feel awesome and kick ****. A third would be that I wanted a different gameplay style after making two mages who kill stuff. I wanted to play a Support character, but on my own terms - like Guntechers in Phantasy Star I wanted to support, but be able to shoot the bajezus out of things at the same time. She started off with Archery attacks, then Pulse Beam Rifle and Crushing Wave, before finally settling on the current 2GM/Lead Tempest.
And then there's Kitty, who was originally an alt that I meant to suicide for the Safeguard Catalyst. She was named such because my friend wanted the catalyst but didn't have alt slots, and he also hated cat-people. I gave her cat ears and a tail and claws and ran circles around him just for the lulz. Then I figured "Hey it's bonus XP weekend, share Resistance with me so I can take my bike into Mega-Ds and see how much XP it gives". 6 hours later I had a level 40 and no idea how to build it. Took some inspiration from the Mega-D terminator thread and made a Lightning Reflexes 100% dodge character. Then I figured I might as well stack abuse all the way. Took Throwing Blades and switched her passive to Quarry to still get 100% dodge. After the Dodge nerf she's back to LR and uses Archery powers. She also has Crippling Challenge now and tanks very well in Rampages, but sucks at holding aggro against other tanks. Not gonna lie though, she never should have existed, but somehow she stuck and became a very fun character to play.
Phew! What a trip down memory lane! Moral of the story? There's a few:
Anything outside of that as a primary role is "non-Trinity".
Now that that definition is out of the way, CO is very much "Trinity". I have the "flexibility" to "do whatever I want", but my choices are all related to either tanking, healing, or pummeling. I can take some CC choices, but they don't actually work very well. If I want to make enemies weaker and set them up for my teammates, or myself for that matter, I really can't do that except in the most trivial ways. If I want to make my teammates stronger or faster or fill their energy bars, I really can't do that in any ways other than by what passive I run.
The only options I am given relate to either being a better tank, being a better DPS, or refilling HP bars. You can talk about flexibility and freedom all you want, but it's a little bit like being told "You can have a Prius in any color you want! Blue! White! Black! Red! Lime green! You have lots of choices!" when you just wanted a pickup truck to haul your stuff.
Well, we can get powers to help us tank better, or to heal people on our team, or to do a bunch of damage. Such an amazing variety of options. such freedom. so creative. my tactical skills are giddy at the challenge of how to use this wide variety of abilities.
Trinity requires that all three components be present in order to succeed. In CO one can have a group composition of all DPS, all tanks, or even all healers (since even heal builds will generally have some damage) or any combination of the three and still succeed.
Where is the trinity in a given group if there is no one healing or taunting to hold aggro on someone with the highest defenses ?
Those builds have been working just fine in CO for going on five years now.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Fixed.
/10char
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
"Chain-healing" the tank has to do with the fundamental mechanic of damage mitigation, that being negating some or even all of damage being dealt by using healing or a resistance buff.
If someone in the group uses a crowd control mechanic to disable an enemy from dealing damage to the tank outright, then that's essentially also a form of damage mitigation and thus also applies to the trinity.
It's not so much the names of the roles themselves but the mechanics involved with those roles, in turn being involved in combat that really defines the trinity. Calling crowd control "non-Trinity" just doesn't make sense in this case.
Tanking = Streamlining all incoming enemy damage onto a single recipient while mitigating damage for everyone else in the party.
Healing and Crowd Control = General mitigation of damage.
DPS = Dealing damage.
Combat has to do with just two things: Damage, be it from players or enemies, and damage mitigation. There are only two viable outcomes: either the player party's or the enemy's collective health points reach zero.
The suggestions I've been seeing in the thread regarding deviation from the trinity seems to emphasize on having more crowd control in the game and making it matter more. That's all well and good, but at the end of the day, crowd control is just another form of damage mitigation and putting more focus on the mechanic doesn't break any new ground. Everything else relevant to the trinity would still apply regardless.
If we truly want to deviate away from the trinity, then anything other than a combat system based on "health points = 0" would have to apply. Puzzle-solving and platforming are the only two kinds of systems I can think of right now.
Makes sense! When someone's already feeling regretful you can't make them feel regret :O What do you expect them to do? Wave goodbye and leave the city in peace with 10 telepaths in the party spamming 40 stacks of Regret?
There's also Disorient and some spec that most people probably don't care about.