test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Offense

mog555mog555 Posts: 95 Arc User
edited February 2014 in Power Discussion
After some changes made with Crit and Offense, I got myself some thinking again about building a melee toon that dish out raw damage. Short term meat shield.

So my questions is, is it alright to build fully on Offense?
Post edited by mog555 on

Comments

  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,452 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Having a character with pure offense and defense with the specialization trees, combined with a high intelligence and cooldown gear using Concentration to exploit the effectiveness of it's stacks and to lower Masterful Dodge and Unbreakable cooldowns, you can have high dps and nearly never ending survivability.
  • cptmillenniumcptmillennium Posts: 447 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    You still can't stack enough offense to come near the DPS of crits though, so I wouldn't ignore crit chance and severity entirely.
    __________________________________________________
    The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Offense is much more worthwhile nowadays. One of my toons (a Power Armor build) actually is heavy on the Offense and light on the Crits. She was that way before the recent Crit/Offense/Dodge changes. Basic concept with her was that the suit could lay down a constant stream of fire (Minigun, Micro-Munitions, tap-spam Tactical Missiles). She used to mow down foes very easily. Her damage output since the changes were quite noticeably improved and she mows foes down even faster.
    100% of the world is crazy, 95% are in denial.

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • vitalityprimevitalityprime Posts: 478 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Is it alright to build on pure offense?

    Yeah, I recently switched to pure offense on my character to show that his damage comes from his pure raw strength, and not any martial arts training(crits)...after all, he's just throwing "haymakers".

    However, as cpt said, it's still not as effective (DPS-wise) as building for some crit chance and crit sev.
    _________
    VARIANT



    "Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    -Abraham Lincoln-
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Building purely for offense can be done... the issue is that at a certain point it stops being worth it to pile on more offense. You'll eventually come to a point where you have ~20% offense bonus without the gear in your offensive slots... at that point you can put Offense gear into those slots and get like 1% or 2% more Offense bonus, or you can slot crit gear and overall get a lot more damage.

    Theoretically though, if your spec has Severity points you could instead put into something that boosts your bonus damage enough to make that extra 1% to 2% offense bonus give better overall damage increase than the crit bonus would, then there would certainly be something to that.
  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Couldn't you do both?

    Dex primary spec Combat Training turns Offense into Crit Chance. Combine that with Guardian + Warden spec for double The Best Defense and gear towards defense/offense on items...
  • mog555mog555 Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I'll see if I can come up with something while planning for it. Still in process for a second FFS though, so enough time for a melee plan.

    Thank you everyone for replying
  • ayonachanayonachan Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Anyone else tired of Gift Horse yet?

    Offense scales poorly.
    Offense
    94.6 Offense grants 3.6%
    147.4 Offense grants 5.5%
    176.9 Offense grants 6.5%
    181.7 Offense grants 6.7%
    198.9 Offense grants 7.3%
    210.7 Offense grants 7.6%
    238.5 Offense grants 8.5%
    250.1 Offense grants 8.9%
    265.5 Offense grants 9.4%
    271.6 Offense grants 9.6%
    297.1 Offense grants 10%
    306.1 Offense grants 11%
    376 Offense grants 13%
    414.2 Offense grants 14%
    450 Offense grants 15%
    554.7 Offense grants 17%
    583.6 Offense grants 18%
    610.7 Offense grants 19%
    643.8 Offense grants 19%
    651.7 Offense grants 20%
    732 Offense grants 21%
    752.2 Offense grants 22%
    780 Offense grants 22%
    815 Offense grants 23%
    865.6 Offense grants 24%
    924.7 Offense grants 25%
    944.9 Offense grants 26%
    970.4 Offense grants 26%
    995.4 Offense grants 26%
    1007.7 Offense grants 27%
    1058.3 Offense grants 28%
    1115.5 Offense grants 28%
    1126.2 Offense grants 29%
    1181.3 Offense grants 29%
    1185.7 Offense grants 30%
    1445.5 Offense grants 33%

    Note: Offense number higher than 148 are from spec tree.


    Critical Strike(and dexterity)&Severity scales poorly.

    Critical Strike
    "Base" critical chance is 0 BUT because you MUST have 10 dex it turns into 3.8%
    47 Critical Strike grants 13.4%
    95 Critical Strike grants 19%
    103 Critical Strike grants 19.9%
    198 Critical Strike grants 26.4%
    245 Critical Strike grants 28.7%
    302 Critical Strike grants 30.8%
    349 Critical Strike grants 32.3%
    Note: all of these numbers are from gear only.

    Dexterity|Percentage
    5 2.2%
    63 14.1%
    120 20.5%
    191 25.5%
    249 28.4%
    329 31.4%
    461 34.9%
    Note: All of these numbers are from gear(and Superstat) only.

    Dexterity+CritStrike|Percentage
    72+204 29.5%
    134+204 31.7%
    249+204 34.7%
    461+103 36.8%
    461+204 38.2%
    Note: All of these numbers are from gear(and Superstat) only.

    Severity
    Base Severity is 50%
    2.5 Severity grants 61.7%
    4.6 Severity grants 63.7%
    8.9 Severity grants 66.1%
    15 Severity grants 68.4%
    Note: All of these numbers are from gear only.


    Overall it is easier to gear for critical strike+severity and factor in the spec tree to boost said numbers higher(flat rates) while obtaining other benefits than it is to gear for offense and spec for offense(since offense scales so poorly that you would be a glass cannon with 1.4k offense)

    So, Don't gear for offense and only pick the offense specs if you have literally no other 'viable' option.

    But this is all just the opinion of a jester forgotten by even time. IGNORE ME
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ayonachan wrote: »
    But this is all just the opinion of a jester forgotten by even time. IGNORE ME

    But I don't want to ignore you :( Ur just so hug-able

    *hugs*
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • ayonachanayonachan Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    But I don't want to ignore you :( Ur just so hug-able

    *hugs*
    And sheee wwwiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllllllll be loveeeeddddddd

    I couldn't resist the temptation...

    Better yet...

    Nobody knows who I really am
    I never felt this empty before
    And if I ever need someone to come along,
    Who's gonna comfort me, and keep me strong?
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ayonachan wrote: »
    And sheee wwwiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllllllll be loveeeeddddddd

    I couldn't resist the temptation...

    Better yet...

    Nobody knows who I really am
    I never felt this empty before
    And if I ever need someone to come along,
    Who's gonna comfort me, and keep me strong?
    sounds like you need another hug

    *hug*

    seriously though, I may not have been around here long, but I can sense you've done much for the TC/math side of this community. Could you put links to some of that more up-to-date material on stat scaling in your signature? Cause that'd be really handy 8)

    Also, was wondering how the newer TP DoTs were scaling w/ crit and severity- in light of the comparison to Offense gearing. It seems theravenforce answered that a while back. Since severity is in additive layers w/ offense, I guess by multiplying together for total dmg% that means they actually scale better w/ crit and severity than normal crit-enabled spells do?
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • ayonachanayonachan Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    sounds like you need another hug

    *hug*

    seriously though, I may not have been around here long, but I can sense you've done much for the TC/math side of this community. Could you put links to some of that more up-to-date material on stat scaling in your signature? Cause that'd be really handy 8)

    Also, was wondering how the newer TP DoTs were scaling w/ crit and severity- in light of the comparison to Offense gearing. It seems theravenforce answered that a while back. Since severity is in additive layers w/ offense, I guess by multiplying together for total dmg% that means they actually scale better w/ crit and severity than normal crit-enabled spells do?

    There is no up-to-date stuff...but only because things haven't been updated within the game in such a long time..

    I also don't do much in the realm of damage due to diminishing returns. After ~96% passive damage bonus the passive damage bonus starts to diminish in value. Freeforms and Archetypes start to differ in damage when you get around ~118% passive damage bonus. Archetypes don't diminish as 'poorly' as freeforms do.

    I use to own a table with 1-500% passive damage bonus scaling for one specific power to show the difference in scaling but the table itself was scrapped due to various updates over the years and hidden decimals being too hidden. I'd revisit it but it isn't really worth the time and effort since I can easily reproduce and produce damage numbers if I have the person's stats, spec tree, passive, and actively used powers.

    As far as TP DoTs they scale on, both, passive damage bonus and crit+severity as well as multiplicative damage bonus. I couldn't tell you exactly how due to me never really caring too much. I don't remember if TP DoTs can crit or not...I know that one clinging flames power can and that said power can also proc more than one clinging flames debuff unlike the other clinging flames procing powers...But the 'new' TP DoTs..I haven't touched since day 1 of the PTS release...

    Anyway, pretty much all of my work can be summed up into Gift Horse(this is a link) and RDoItMbW. I quote information from them from time to time and they both rarely get updated...not out of boredom just...CO's mechanics very very very rarely get updated. I didn't provide a link for RDoItMbW because most of the information dealing with certain game mechanics are outdated and it is almost exclusively replaced by Gift Horse. The only things that Gift Horse doesn't have that RDoItMbW does(and is accurate) are things that can be summed up as 'QoL' as well as that there is little to no flavor text in Gift Horse.

    Oh, and don't use the Layering table on Gift Horse because the multiplicative values are a bit...'strange'...technically offense is multiplicative but it occurs 'before/after' severity in edge cases and seems to apply its bonuses separately than severity in some circumstances. Due to hidden decimals and diminishing returns(mainly just plain laziness) I just gave up trying to make heads or tails of it...Also, Variance is a *****...

    Edit: When previewing Gift Horse link was white so I made sure that you wouldn't miss it...(hopefully...)
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ayonachan wrote: »
    -snip-

    Good stuff, esp that Gift Horse link- I was looking for that earlier, so that's a big help! Thank you for clarifying some of the odder quirks to this game's algorithms. Still can't say I really understand why Cryptic opts for a mix of using pure multiplicative, pure additive, and some pseudo-multiplicative (for lack of better term) factors in them on top of DRs and 'caps', but I guess they earned their company name somehow :p

    I mean, its not really an uncommon practice to not clarify these sort of differences in-game, but it is a rather annoying one. An uninitiated player could easily look at something like Blindside Blow's bonus and be amazed, but I'd just have to shake my head that some players are making poor decisions not because of their own ignorance (which is what it is) as much as because of the (mis)information given to them in-game.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • ayonachanayonachan Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Good stuff, esp that Gift Horse link- I was looking for that earlier, so that's a big help! Thank you for clarifying some of the odder quirks to this game's algorithms. Still can't say I really understand why Cryptic opts for a mix of using pure multiplicative, pure additive, and some pseudo-multiplicative (for lack of better term) factors in them on top of DRs and 'caps', but I guess they earned their company name somehow :p

    I mean, its not really an uncommon practice to not clarify these sort of differences in-game, but it is a rather annoying one. An uninitiated player could easily look at something like Blindside Blow's bonus and be amazed, but I'd just have to shake my head that some players are making poor decisions not because of their own ignorance (which is what it is) as much as because of the (mis)information given to them in-game.

    It would help if they labeled what is passive and what is multiplicative...but at least they actually work...unlike how certain other things "work"...An example off the top of my head, Flippin's Dodge chance is a flat rate that decreases as the player obtains more avoidance rating(the avoidance type from gear and such....even LR...) The bonus avoidance% from flippin is minor because of how avoidance works and avoidance% does not decrease the dodge chance of said buff.

    There are things that plain just don't work and there are other things that are broken that shouldn't exist...and then there are the circumstantial things that 'work' but...they aren't worth the effort for the bonuses that they provide.

    At least Fire Snake still works as intended! Isn't that right NPC who just pushed me from the tailor...
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ayonachan wrote: »
    It would help if they labeled what is passive and what is multiplicative

    agree. Maybe put a small in-game tip about what the terminology may mean for those interested- or have a basic vs. advanced tool-tip option that allows one to opt in to the more obscure details and algorithms if they wanted to.
    ...but at least they actually work...unlike how certain other things "work"...An example off the top of my head, Flippin's Dodge chance is a flat rate that decreases as the player obtains more avoidance rating(the avoidance type from gear and such....even LR...) The bonus avoidance% from flippin is minor because of how avoidance works and avoidance% does not decrease the dodge chance of said buff.

    yeah, isn't that the same case w/ Dragon Kick's lashing tail adv? Maybe there should be a list of all these not working as intended or advertised powers.
    At least Fire Snake still works as intended! Isn't that right NPC who just pushed me from the tailor...
    rofl, civvies: the real untouchable menace of CO.

    Also, weird thing I noticed w/ firesnake (that I'd only seen w/ testing)- so it can crit, but whether it can crit seems to be determined by the initial hit (so either all ticks crit or none do). I wonder if more ground-based entities are like this. I may also be encountering this odd behavior w/ Gatling Gun (unless my luck is just *extremely* consistent in its outcome).
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • shaenthebrainshaenthebrain Posts: 111 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ayonachan wrote: »
    After ~96% passive damage bonus the passive damage bonus starts to diminish in value. Freeforms and Archetypes start to differ in damage when you get around ~118% passive damage bonus. Archetypes don't diminish as 'poorly' as freeforms do.

    By "passive damage bonuses," do you mean toggle form stacks, slotted passives, and STR/EGO bonuses? Are there any others? I can usually hit 90-100% easily from a rank 3 offensive passive. Are you saying that it wouldn't be worth it to stack a form on top of that? Or am I wildly misinterpreting? Roughly how badly do the returns diminish?
  • ayonachanayonachan Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    By "passive damage bonuses," do you mean toggle form stacks, slotted passives, and STR/EGO bonuses? Are there any others? I can usually hit 90-100% easily from a rank 3 offensive passive. Are you saying that it wouldn't be worth it to stack a form on top of that? Or am I wildly misinterpreting? Roughly how badly do the returns diminish?

    An extremely old comparison of FreeForm & Archetypes that originally served another purpose but the information is still relevant.
    ayonachan wrote: »
    Archetypes 'do' have diminishing returns...

    They just aren't on the same level as freeforms.

    Squall is the perfect candidate to show how far of a gap we can make between Archetype and Freeform using a glass-cannon type.

    Using the same exact powers, buffs, role, and stats and gear I get:

    Rank 1 Typhoon has a base of 174-740 for both, archetypes and freeforms who are both in the ranged role(+25% multiplicative damage)

    Typhoon has a 'base' base damage of 139-592

    From there, adding in a small amount of additive damage boosts will make them both equal until you reach around 128%(for this specific power).

    Having the freeform and archetype BOTH use the same 128% additive bonus damage yields:

    324-1382 for the Freeform
    335-1428 for the Archetype
    396.15-1687.2 for the "Should-be-this-high-if-no-diminishing-returns"


    Rank 1 Typhoon w/ 551.7% Passive Damage Bonus + 25% Multiplicative(from Ranged Role Bonus)

    Archetype:
    1005-4286

    Freeform:
    631-2690

    "Should-be-this-high-if-no-diminishing-returns":
    1132.33-4822.58


    Rank 3 Typhoon w/ 551.7% Passive Damage Bonus + 25% Multiplicative(from Ranged Role Bonus)

    Archetype:
    1447-6172

    Freeform:
    908-3873

    "Should-be-this-high-if-no-diminishing-returns":
    1629.25-6940.61

    As for how many 'passive' damage bonuses there are...it is actually easier to list the multiplicative damage bonuses than it is to write out all the passive damage bonuses(you can also call them additive)

    Pretty much most of the spec tree stuff is passive..

    Off the top of my head:
    Multiplicative Damage Bonuses
    Critical Severity, Role Bonus(+25%, -10%), Eye of the Sapphire/Ruby Dragon(You cannot stack multiple of the same type), Negative Resistance(technically this is a second 'passive' layer...((well...'first' but let's not get into that)) and it technically doesn't diminish..but...it....it is different.), Mental Discipline.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Brainstorming all the basic dmg bonuses here, and ayonachan can correct me if I'm off anywhere:

    Slotted Passive (additive)
    Toggle (additive)
    Power Rank Up (20% multiplicative per)
    Super Stat %dmg bonuses (additive, iirc)
    Str/Ego innate bonuses (additive)
    Offense (pseudo-multiplicative; used to be additive)
    Melee_Ranged role %bonuses (multiplicative)
    Active Offenses (additive)

    afaik, dmg DR affects the additive bonuses only; a multiplicative bonus (if it truly is multiplicative) applies after the DR is considered. Ofc, all the multiplicative bonuses are lower %s as a result (10-25% range, vs. usually 25-150% range for additive)

    crit/severity, -cast speed, and -resist% also boost dmg but by having their own separate mechanics, also indep of the dmg DR.

    I do not know exactly how the dmg DR curve diminishes, aside from the starting point of the DR curve being around the values ayonachan listed. I can shed a bit more light on how heavy the DR is for a committed dps toon though:

    I have a ranged dps toon w/ TC & Concentration. His total additive bonuses at one stack of Concentration are: 16+13+35(SSs)+36(Ego)+66(TC)+12(Conc) = ~178%
    With 8 stacks of Concentration = ~262%

    Adding 50% additive dmg from a r1 AO boosts final dmg by 11.75% when added to 178% total, and by 7.5% when added to 262% total.

    Also the final dmg increase from 178% to 262%, or 84% additive, was a 18.52% final dmg boost. From 178% to 262%+AO, or 134% additive, a 27.42% final boost.

    Computing a rough return, from these data points (+extras):
    -0+50 (50): ~0.55% (assumed, not tested)
    -61.4+50 (111.4): 0.5171% final dmg% per additive dmg%
    -100+50 (150): 0.3882% " "
    -112+50 (162): 0.358% " "
    -112+66 (178): 0.35% " "
    -178+50 (228): 0.235% " "
    -178+84 (262): 0.2205% " "
    -178+134 (312): 0.205% " "
    -262+50 (312): 0.15% " "

    (orange = tests w/ only AO added)

    as you can see, by 262% total (not that hard to get, the cited toon was in heroic gear w/ r4 mods) the return from additive bonuses is pretty damned low for a dps toon. Also keep in mind there are some multiplicative boosts at play here (role, rank ups, offense-ish) so ofc the final dmg% : additive dmg% ratio will not be 1:1 even in the best case scenario (actually, more like 1:0.55 at best- or [1/ (1.25*1.4*1.03)] if my assumptions are correct).

    (edited to add extra data points from removing various other sources of additive bonuses)
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    edit: accidental multi-post, sry
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    edit: hurr durr hurr HNNG aajdsfegk (flow needs to be more careful w/ C&P and button-clicking >< )

    Also just to put it here: my soldier AT is doing almost the same dmg w/ the same attacks at lvl 32 as my FF dps builds at lvl 40. Dat FF dmg DR..
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • shaenthebrainshaenthebrain Posts: 111 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Thanks for the info. I had no idea that the bonus damage from increasing the rank of the power was a multiplicative bonus. I take it, then, that since most gurus advise against them, advantages like Bloody Mess and Tiger's Courage are additive?
  • ayonachanayonachan Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Thanks for the info. I had no idea that the bonus damage from increasing the rank of the power was a multiplicative bonus. I take it, then, that since most gurus advise against them, advantages like Bloody Mess and Tiger's Courage are additive?

    Bloody Mess and Tiger's Courage are both multiplicative. It is ill-advised to get Bloody Mess/Tiger's Courage if you have a crit-build due to the damage from both not being calculated into your crits. The overall increase to your damage would be lower than if you took R3 because the advantage's damage gets an extra layer added on top that is separate from your crit's(Note: This specific anomaly can be observed with the new offense).

    Tiger's Courage&Bloody Mess are capped at 30% and for the case of Tiger's Courage having less than 30% critical chance would be the best case for taking this specific advantage.

    Edit: I believe they tried to fix Tiger's Courage in the past with mixed results. If I have to guess it ended up working out but somewhere down the road they broke it again(like so many other powers) so people just stamp the "Get only if less than 30% critical chance" sticker onto it to foolproof it.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The question on damage bonus being multiplicative or additive, you need to first define on what it is multiplicative or additive with.
    Like bonus from passives, that is multiplicative with crit severity and that all is multiplicative with roles.
    But it is additive with damage strength from stats and most powers and specs.

    It is better to think of this in the way of bonus layers, bonuses that are in the same layer are additive with each other, and the different layers are multiplicative. The diminishing return is just a reduction of how effective the bonus is on one specific layer when it gets above a certain value.

    Offense used to be on the same damage layer as passives, forms, damage strength, etc.
    Now it on the same layer as crit severity, adv like TC and BM etc, and the mods you get from Hi Pan, etc.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    aiqa wrote: »
    The question on damage bonus being multiplicative or additive, you need to first define on what it is multiplicative or additive with.
    Like bonus from passives, that is multiplicative with crit severity and that all is multiplicative with roles.

    Yeah my use of the terminology is taken from a diff game's community (ME3's MP) that didn't see this complex layering phenom. That binary labeling works in a system w/o added layering.

    So for my post, I guess that meant 'additive' was just in the first layer, 'multiplicative' could mean any of the layers on top of that (ie. multiplicative w/ the earlier layers, additive w/ its own layer), so that labeling ultimately isn't too helpful for this game :/

    Ofc, you guys seem to know more about how the layering works, so I'll defer to ur knowledge.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    from a diff game's community (ME3's MP)

    Hm. What name do you take in that community?
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,310 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Flow_Cytometry. I remember an Oniganon from that community (if that's you, heya *waves*)
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Sign In or Register to comment.