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The CON stat: Why it's currently unbalanced and what to do about it.
gradii
Posts: 11,716 Arc User
Currently, CON is a little TOO valuable, due to how darn squishy you are without it. IMO CON should be something not so necessary for survival, even on an offensive or support passive.
Many builds simply have no room for a con stat, and we've seen how overblown the price for CON mods is on AH.
CON is simply TOO good now because of the HUGE difference it makes in survival when you have it.
I'm going to restate a suggestion made by Shadowzero666, because I think its a good one.
Nerf the amount of HP CON gives you per point down to around 10-12HP per point from 15, and raise the base HP by around 2k (I'd suggest 2.5k)
this makes CON still highly desirable for tanks, while making hybrid builds far easier to make viable due to less need to sacrifice a stat slot for CON.
with the base HP raised, people will be encouraged to try new combinations and diversify their builds away from the almighty CON stat.
The point of this thread is not to make CON less desirable OVERALL but rather to close the gap of survivability between CON and non CON builds. Nerfing juggernaut and Nimble mind is the NEAR OPPOSITE of the kind of thing I'd like to achieve with this actually.
Many builds simply have no room for a con stat, and we've seen how overblown the price for CON mods is on AH.
CON is simply TOO good now because of the HUGE difference it makes in survival when you have it.
I'm going to restate a suggestion made by Shadowzero666, because I think its a good one.
Nerf the amount of HP CON gives you per point down to around 10-12HP per point from 15, and raise the base HP by around 2k (I'd suggest 2.5k)
this makes CON still highly desirable for tanks, while making hybrid builds far easier to make viable due to less need to sacrifice a stat slot for CON.
with the base HP raised, people will be encouraged to try new combinations and diversify their builds away from the almighty CON stat.
The point of this thread is not to make CON less desirable OVERALL but rather to close the gap of survivability between CON and non CON builds. Nerfing juggernaut and Nimble mind is the NEAR OPPOSITE of the kind of thing I'd like to achieve with this actually.
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CON? What's that? *checks his builds* Yup..only two characters out of three pages use CON. Pointless stat in my opinion. Let's get rid of it all together. :biggrin:
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Nimble mind. Con basically lets you have high crit chance with no need to bother with dex.
Juggernaut. Con gives you not only HP, but tons of defense. Which gives you tons of offense because warden / guardian + vind.
I am skeptical that having Con give less HP will reduce the popularity of it.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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I don't see a HUGE difference in survival between characters with CON and characters without. Also. I'm going to request that this thread be moved to Suggestions Box.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
You said Con is too valuable. Con's value has far less to do with gobs of HP than the powers and specs that are enhanced by it. The AH prices reflect the value of Con due to things that have nothing to do with HP.
I seriously doubt this suggestion will encourage diversity in builds.
That doesn't mean I think this is a good or bad idea, it means that the goals and reason you give are questionable.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
How does decreasing the usefulness of Con as a stat make non Con builds more survivable? I mean you're not asking to nerf Con AND the mobs ingame, just Con so...everyone dies easier then?
Con is a particularly useful stat, but its not the be all and end all of statting.
I wish END and REC fix more better rather then CON nerf.
Still not seeing what you're going on about with survivability. I run a Lightning Reflexes character with base HP (4,955) and no BCR/RR in the mix and do surprisingly well. The character even uses Fluidity for the block replacer. So again. I don't know why you think Con is needed to survive.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I am unconvinced that a build with no Con is less survivable simply because it has no Con. Survival depends on how you create your build.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Survival also depends on your own player skill.
Block, activating insta-defense power, movement, etc...
The fact is you can hit more DPS having a lot of CON than you can without any CON at all just because of nimble mind / strength primary with guardian and warden.
All of those are some of the most broken things in CO currently.
By nerfing CON by adding deminishing returns onto it oddly enough you may make getting hp in other ways slightly more viable. For example pure strength and strength primary or getting health by endurance primary.
Also as jewel said, survival can by done by LOS as well.
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
And why would they do that?
After all, it's not what their build was made for, it was made to use LR so they use LR, if they were going to use WoTW or AoPM then they would have built for that instead of being built for LR.
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
department.
Especially the AoPM toon. The one with WoTW kills to quickly to be in much danger.
When we were only able to pick two superstats, we had to pick 2 out of 3 from damage, energy, and survivability (in loose terms, of course). There is much more wiggle room now.
A lot of people aren't understanding what he's saying. If you nerf the HP bonus of CON, but raise the base HP, then it wouldn't negatively inpact anyone. Anyone at all. It would just give non-CON builds more relative HP.
Let's all keep in mind that this isn't actually a nerf suggestion. This is an adjustment suggestion. Tanks would still have as many HP as they do now more or less, only some of the more extreme examples might see lower numbers; squishy toons would just have a few more without having to stat Con.
This would help all those squishy no-Con Archetypes that people are always complaining about.
SIDENOTE: Hey Gradii, how's it feel to have people freaking out at you for suggesting a "nerf" that's not really a nerf? :P
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PS: A nerf is when the numbers on something goes down. Since the suggestion is to lower the amount of hp gained per point of CON, its technically a nerf. :P
Example? I have an unconventional DEX/Ego/Int Ego-Blader with Seraphim as her passive that I proved to be plenty survivable even after the Dodge nerf. I know she can at least go toe-to-toe with a Resistance Mega-D Overseer and it's summoned twin.
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You, of all people, should know that I can pull off those passives with ease and have no Con at all.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Plus many don't even need it. Move along.
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Like often is the case, your inexperience is showing Gradii/DaZee, and you're making sweeping calls for widespread nerfs without considering the ramifications or alternative methods.
We don't need more nerfs to balance things. What we need is give more options that promote build diversity. There's plenty of stats, powers, advantages, and specializations that need to be buffed and it would not be gamebreaking to do so.
Here's how to lessen CON's impact relatively speaking without applying any nerfs at all:
In conclusion, I doubt this topic will change things. But if it is being considered, the solutions offered above do a lot more to help the game than just hitting another stupid nerf to anger the playerbase. It's like getting inflation reducing your paycheck, you worked hard to just have your earning count for less and less each year. Enough with calls for nerfs, buff up the weakest links instead.
Finally something we can agree on. More specifically it makes no sense to have one stat that is connected to HP and two stats connected to different aspects of Energy. We need just one energy stat. (note: INT isn't so much energy as cost & cooldown redux, which is not the same thing. And INT strongly tied with toggle forms like Concentration and energy unlocks like MSA, which is essential to making many builds work that otherwise wouldn't have synergies to work well). And while you're at it, fix Overdrive so it's an equal competitor to MSA, using REC. (and if REC and END were merged, that'd make Overdrive much more appealing).
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It's not a nerf if your HP doesn't take a hit.
It's not a nerf. See above.
Plus, what you're proposing is way more sweeping than anything gradii is asking for.
I'm against Nerfing CON (because that's TOTALLY NERF and NOT balance)
I will Confess, ALL my FF character use CON as Secondary, reasons: Survibility and because I HATE getting 1-shot from bosses like Gravitar. The majority of my characters' HP don't go over 8000 HP, and one 3 are using Ego Surge + Adv, and one is using Spirit Reverberation an Energy Unlock which SCALES with CON
Leave CON alone, you know what we should ask, to boost some of the STAT Like ENDURANCE which I avoid like the Plague, I have Characters who use INT or REC, but NONE use END
REC and INT are SUPPERIOR to END which does not have many flexible Energy Unlocks which take advantage of it and NEED REC and INT to works
Stop bashing END.
By itself (without specs) yes I do agree it is lack lustre. But the spec system does redeem it somewhat.
I have a couple of toons who run with END PSS and do perfectly fine. Even one who DPS's with END PSS (single statter).
As for REC, again without it's respective specs it's a little lack lustre. But with it's specs it can be a great Primary Super Stat.
When you look at the spec trees for both, they have pretty good choices to make the spec worth while, in a similar manner to other specs like PRE/DEX/EGO/INT etc.
If END/REC were to be looked at, what would people suggest be added to them/ what properties would they absorb (perhaps from other stats) that will not conflict or "over power" their specs?
I will say this:
A few of my builds have used CON just because I don't like squishy characters (generally) and I like the "safety net" that a little bit of CON grants (especially when paired with END PSS).
It's not necessary for survival however. I run a toon with 4,474 HP and have very little problem doing Gravitar and I even ran Fire and Ice without much issue, provided I am focused on what I am doing and don't put myself in danger.
It does depend how your character is built and skill level, not to mention the content you are running.
Here's a thought: What about looking at Defense as a mechanic? Making it worthwhile like what has been done with Offense (from additive to multiplicative) would be a step towards people perhaps relying on CON less IF Defense was actually worthwhile (more so than it currently is perhaps).
(I realise this may make STR/CON combos that much more potent with regards Juggernaut, but Defense is an avenue which could be looked into)
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Whilst it is useful, it's "necessity" is being blown out of proportion here by the OP, plenty of players don't use it on every single build.
Agreed.
Would say just EGO, since...Ego Surge...
In addition, remove the dumb energy penalty Tank Roles have. It makes no sense, tanks mostly have to DPS/do high damage and hold threat against DPSers's generated threat. Having a normal Energy pool would help this.
Agreeing here with you as well. Personally I use CON for those situations where my Passive cannot provide any protection (like Physical dmg vs Fire Form), more like a safety net.
Nope. Leave END alone. I say this cause I've gotten some good mileage out of END PSS (single statting and otherwise, see my earlier post).
If this was done correctly then maybe, but then you have to consider AT's (I know hardly anyone considers them much anymore but in this instance of such a dramatic change, they need to be considered.) Some powers are tied directly to certain stats, mostly energy unlocks, so a lot of reworking would have to be done in order deal with such a change.
I do honestly think this would be a much better idea than throwing out reductions and attempting to balance things in a haphazard way which could cause over buffs or over reductions.
I don't think Overdrive actually scales properly, I could be wrong but with over 330 END it's giving me 9 energy per tick or something ridiculous like that.
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Without the plus 2.5k proposed increase to base hp, with the suggested change to CON, your hp would take a hit. In fact, if con stayed the way it is now and we got the hp buff as suggested, your hp would be higher than if the nerf to CON that is being asked for was implemented. In short, it would effect your hp. For in both cases, your hp is lower with the suggested change than if CON remained as it is now.
Yes, I also have toons that can survive easily without any CON. That doesn't change the fact that those toons, if we statted CON to them, would pretty much become unkillable gods, while sacrificing nothing in trade. Gradii isn't saying that toons need CON to survive. He is pointing out that CON is just a bit too good of a stat, because characters who stack tons of CON get a lot out of that investment while sacrificing very little, and characters who don't stat CON at all don't get very much in trade for all the survival ability that they've traded.
Yes, there are other things that also scale with CON that add to this problem; diminish the value of dumping everything into CON and you start to chip away at those other issues as well.
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Ofc, Rec/End is a tangent, but making them more appealing is an indirect way to address the problem, yea.
Hm, random thoughts-
End: 'increases your damage by x% when above equilibrium' (issue though is spec trees that let End increase equilibrium being counter-productive, but those could always change).
Rec: either add a niche (like make it the stat that scales many pet attributes- ie. the old Int, I guess), or maybe allow it to have a mini-Supernatural Power effect- gaining you some small energy when you dip below a certain %max energy (so even if you cap out ur equilibrium its still useful to have more of).
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Er, you don't take End as PSS over other stats because of Readiness, you pick up Readiness to not need Rec as much if you do make that choice. And I never said what they could change it to; could be better or worse.
I was going to suggest the boost work below equilibrium, but to me it makes more sense thematically for Rec to have an extra effect when lower on reserves- not End. I only used equilibrium as an easy marker for the cutoff for my suggestion for End, but had to point out a side-effect to doing that.
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None of my characters have CON as either primary or secondary SS. All of my characters use offensive passives.
Not sure that I agree that CON is so necessary or OP.
In general I have found the extra health gained from CON to be somewhat wasteful. If you would have 5k health without CON SS and 8k with it, that extra health would only matter in situations where your enemies can deal more than 5k damage to you.
A good self heal, one power out of many, has more impact than CON primary SS (of which you get only one) when it comes to survivability.
Ultimately if my characters are not dying with 5k health, what good is an extra 3, 4, or 5k ?
* all of the above IMO of course.
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If you main SS CON, then you're bound to trade-off some form of effectiveness in an area that another stat provides. In fact, taking CON as main SS for certain builds would actually be impractical. As of now, the only two real practical reasons you would take CON as a main SS is 1) Defiance and 2) The STR tree spec that allows for CON to give defense.
If we're talking about CON as a secondary SS, then the same applies. If I wanted a slight boost in HP by choosing CON as a secondary SS, then I would be sacrificing a buff in DPS by not taking Ego (if I were ranged), PRE if I was healing (or if I wanted a bigger AoRP group buff) or INT if I was using Quarry, just to name a few examples.
The overall point is that CON isn't such an overpowered stat to take to start calling for nerfs. It's certainly not that crucial for survivability either since there are other forms of survivability. Having CON as a SS just makes it so that you can adjust your build accordingly without resorting to other means of survivability to make up for a lower overall HP, but at the same time trading off some area that your build can do better in.
Jeeenny, you're not making sense. (Or dollars either!)
Not disagreeing with you, it's just...You couldn't have the STR spec tree with CON main. It's impossibrou. D=
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You're right, I didn't phrase that properly. I meant to say maximizing CON while having STR as main SS...
Derp.