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So what happened to Justice Gear?
daeymondarksoul
Posts: 11 Arc User
Title says it all. So what happened with Justice Gear?
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There was a recent thread about it. Trailturtle said that there has been no announcement yet as to how they'll be made available.
They aren't on Test any more, either, so some people have theorized that they're being reworked before they're released. That's pure guesswork though.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Cryptic won't say.
The Long Answer:
Cryptic and PWE have a policy of not talking about upcoming for purchase content before its released. They tested out the new justice gear, and then took it off the PTS after they found out what they needed to know. We're probably not going to hear anything more about it until its released. The devs have pretty much said as much on chat, and via the forums.
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This probably wont come until more nerfs and fixes. Dodge nerf and maybe a cooldown nerf are done for a reason not just to troll people who like to be unkillable.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
That's the widely assumed rumor.
Also, for consideration:
It's vague as you should reasonably expect. I personally take that as might or might not happen, 50/50. Other people are jumping on this as some sort of guaranteed confirmation and it's just a question of when.
Take that as you will, it's anyone's guess and you shouldn't expect Cryptic to say.
I sincerely hope they do NOT do this. We don't need more nerfs FFS, we NEED new explorable content. (not just cosmetic content, I'm talking new places to explore and do things)
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I hope this ends up being the case if they do plan on releasing the Justice Gear. Currently, there really isn't a need for the new gear.
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Clearly you don't think perma active defenses is a problem or a 6k heal every couple of seconds. I would like to see CC strength being worth while too be honest as a hardcore manipulator user. =D
Cooldown reduction is ridiculously better than CC strength and power cost reduction and I hope that they do look into doing something about balancing this. I didn't mean that they are only doing these changes for the new gear but they are doing these changes so they can add the new gear so they can add new content probably intended to be hard enough that the new gear will be of use.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Cooldowns don't work though, the cooldowns that were set to certain powers were not meant to be so low. In what way should a 1:30 minute cooldown be able to go down to 20 seconds? It's crazy.
Pfft I think CC can work okay, I recently made a 10 second stun build using sonic device on master of the mind so I can totally obliterate everything when I change into it. Stunning a master AT for 20 seconds without any damage breaking it is really funny. ;D
Too be honest on most MMO's, or all MMO's CC works too control crowds of adds and not the actual boss unless it is things like debuffs which I wouldn't really link in with CC. This is how it should be and I hope that if the devs do this new content they look into using a large amount of adds, even better if the adds like blow up if left for too long or something like that instead of actually just being about damage. This would be good as it would mean that CC is actually needed.
FYI By nerf I would say it just needs some sort of cap on certain powers at least, and a higher DR rate would be good because you may as well just stack as much cooldown reduction as you can at the moment.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I think the ideal path lies between those options. Having some people severely more powerful than others is never a good idea. If you do some group content and one person solos everything you feel kind of useless. Being overshadowed in general is not that much of a fun concept.
It gets even more problematic if they ever introduce group content that gives good rewards.
So I would do something like that:
Look what the average person has of certain stat and balance it around the effectiveness I want said stat to have.
After that I look what min/maxing is possible. Now I implement stacking/diminishing returns in a way that the min/max build is performing as I want it.
The idea of diminishing returns is to punish min/maxing without affecting the average performance. There would also be the simple possibility of a hard cap.
Cooldown reduction is fine the way most people use/have it. But it can be pushed so hard that it defeats the purpose of cooldowns in the first place. That can make some powers perform in a way that they are not meant to. So it would be nice to fix that. And I am sure it could be done in a way that does not affect the majority of the people.
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We need both... the nerfs, and the new content. Which is why Cryptic N are going to do both. Not sure why some people want to push the idea that the two are mutually exclusive so hard. In fact, the content will work better with the nerfs, so you should be happy, the thing you want is going to be improved by the thing you think you don't want
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This.
Basically I strongly feel that the team content in CO should be about as hard for anyone as it was when we did serpent lantern with you on your super squishy DPS, me on my inventor, we had a behemoth and I think we had one FF with us who switched between 2 different builds by the looks of it. I actually had the most fun I have had in PvE in while when we did that purely because it wasn't exactly 'easy' on some parts where we had 50 mobs all condensed into one area all on elite we had to use the behemoth tanking while I try to debuff / buff / heal everyone and foxi bursts out massive aoe damage. If we were on FF's that had no theme other than beating stuff and there were 5 of us there wouldn't even be a point in us turning up, we wouldn't do anything our health wouldn't go down we would hardly even need to move other than to go to the next objective.
If somehow they make content that is as hard as doing current content as hard as you can (elite team size 5) on the squishiest FF or the considered 'worse' AT's then PvE would be rather challenging although you feel a sense of achievement for doing it. I want to feel like 'YES WE DID IT' after you finally kill a boss in a game, not like '...' then leave because you didn't get the drop you wanted.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I call BS on that. You are basically labeling all FF as "no theme" which is absurd. Based on what you wrote it is evident that your gripes are with FF and that you enjoy the trinity system where everyone has a "role".
CO is about FF and the content should be made around that not ATs or "roles". If you want roles go play DCUO there you can be the sidekick you want to be.
I don't want to rely on a healer or debuffer etc.... this is not a fantasy game it's a superhero one and I enjoy being powerful (or at least as powerful as my concept of that toon allows me to be). If you want to play one those type of toons and carve yourself into a "role" that is not there then that's your prerogative not everyones.
I will have to disagree, most players are silver, in short ATs with roles. The content should be based around that, not based on FFs that are immortal. For if content was based around unkillable FFs than ATs would be in heaps of trouble and might not be able to do the content due to their lack of self healing. Plus with how the game plays "roles" can be very useful vs just everyone playing god like FFs.
Plus roles don't force you to heal or debuff or buff or anything. But there are people out there that enjoy healing. And there are people out there that enjoy the trinity. If you don't like it, either: stop playing the game, or solo everything and never do alerts. Do not try to force your play style on others while disregarding someone else's play style.
Also, if you really want to feel like its all about you. Go play a single player game. This is a MMO with others that you play with. Plus people are not saying you can't be powerful, its just that its stupid with how things can be.
I remember a time were I was on one of my healers doing a XP alert. We had a level 40 FF tank that needed no healing. I was bored out of my mind, I was useless. I should not feel that way. Thats not what a game is about.
There is no reward for being a unkillable overpowered FF. I'd get so bored quickly not being able to die and soloing everything.
I have to agree. The challenge of the content makes it more fun, and memorable. However... the challenge of making things challenging through nerfs is keeping the current player base. The player base has been here awhile and many don't take kindly to nerfs because of how long these unbalances have been in place and built upon. The population is kind of low and these nerfs may send some packing, even as the auras send more coming back. However, at the same time, it is a breath of fresh air for those who left because it shows that Cryptic cares. The key is to balance the nerfs with new shinies.
Speaking of new shinies, I don't mean to start a rumor, but On-Alert originally happened because the itemization and stats needed to be in line for the game to move forward to a new zone/ level cap raise. This is at least why it was initially started, and before you ask me for proof, it was said by Robobo several times, but I am NOT about to go searching for it. If the stats are being messed with once again, it may be safe to assume that something is in the pipeline... but they could equally just be balancing for balance sake because these issues HAVE been around for awhile.
I think in terms of CC, there are things that do need some sort of balance. I'm not sure what, but I trust Ravenforce's opinion. xD I think how mobs react with Manipulator stacks as well as the resistances of mobs in general. Manipulator was originally slotted to be able to hold really high level villains (not sure if Cosmics, Legendaries, or whatever is right beneath) for a least a tiny bit if you invest in the right places. However, at the current game difficulty this would do little. We'd need brutal bosses for that kind of CC to be necessary.
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This is completely and utterly wrong. There is not such thing as "immortal FF" and I dare you to prove me that ALL FF are immortal. What you can have, at best, is an extremely durable toon BUT you have to build for it.
You are just making absurd and hyperbole like claims with nothing but air to back them up. Show me those immortal FF and then we are talking. Just throwing claims out there proves nothing. Nobody is immortal.
I don't disregard anyone's play style. It's people that play and want trinity that disregard anything else. I don't care if someone plays a healer. BUT if YOU CHOSE TO play as such don't expect everyone else to bend over to make you feel useful and needed.
It's you who are self absorbed and deluded that you think that just because you made a toon that YOU want to play YOU should be NEEDED. Please, spare me the nonsense. It was your decision to make that toon and play it.
And yes you should feel not needed because you are not needed. The way CO works you are NOT needed. What you are doing is completely disregarding the fact that people don't NEED you. Then you QQ about the fact that they don't NEED you although it's quite evident that with FF you can be self sufficient.
You are entitled to your playstyle but asking to be NEEDED is delusional because that has NOTHING to do with YOUR playsyle but OTHERS. You are asking OTHERS to NEED you and thus you are asking for others to CHANGE their playstyle/toons such that they accommodate YOU (need your healing).
Where did I say that?
I said just before we had 2 FF's, one of whom (foxi) is using a 5k HP true theme build based around power armour. I didn't label FF's as having no theme I was just saying I found this 10x more fun to play like that if we were FF's that happen to not care for theme and just care about doing stuff without a care in the world. You hardly even need any gear for doing that, infact you don't even really need to have more than about 3-4 cheese / cookie cutter powers.
Generally you are saying if you want a role go to DCUO or if you want to heal or debuff go to fantasy. I know plenty of heroes that help people by healing, they help people by buffing their allies or by making their enemy worse off. The way I've always seen it there are a lot of team based battles in the world of hero's, although every hero has such an ego that they think they run things solo every single one of them needs help at some point.
I'm not really talking about the holy trinity this is about what a hero can offer to make up for something another hero lacks. I was playing an inventor that has like 0 damage all I can do is debuff / buff / heal to make sure my team gets through safely. While the behemoth AT threw himself in the way of enemies to make sure they wouldn't get through and hit me.
Too be honest this isn't anything about AT's of FF's.
AT's have massively superior damage while FF's can choose things such as MD / ego surge / conviction while also picking the highest hitting powers and the best combination of specs.
No this isn't about AT's vs FF's at all, generally an AT can be invincible just as a FF can be. Penny and I attempted vikorin on elite mode and team size 5 on my inventor and her inferno, we got to vikorin but failed because of our lack of knock resistance. ;D Knock, knock, knock. But the point there is, how in the hell did the apparently 2 worst AT's in the game duo this 5 man lair so fast and so easily?
My point is that if you are in a team, you should rely on your team and you should trust your team. Even if your heroes ego says otherwise, you will sometimes need help from allies when the going gets tough.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Yeah... IMP is totally anti-FF... you can really tell... when he's playing on his FFs... which have some really goofy themes...and are totally not immortal... >.> awkward~
fyi night... trinity and self-sufficient are not mutually exclusive playstyles
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
He is also hard to kill, but when in open mishes works well in a team.
Anyone who disagrees should go heal a boat :I
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They are if people QQ about being a healer and not "feeling needed". There is no way to make someone who intentionally plays a healer be "needed" all the time without making EVERYONE else change the way the play.
I don't know of his toons so your sarcasm might as well not be there. There no point in you telling me what he does and does not do.
I read what he wrote and he might not have meant it that way but that does not change what he said.
Well if you are not on the "I play X and DEMAND TO BE NEEDED/WANTED" QQ bandwagon then I'm cool with that.
I don't mind/care/want to limit anyone's playstyle but when people come along that make a build or create a role (tank, healer, dps) and they feel they are not needed then it should NOT be OTHERS that should CHANGE but they themselves.
IMO everyone should play what they enjoy but if your enjoyment means that OTHERS have to change to need something like healing then that's being selfish.
I guess I misinterpreted the tone/direction of your post but you have to admit it can be interpreted differently
Stuns are MEANT to be short duration. Thanks to the broken CC system we currently have in place, stuns are the top dogs so to speak with Sleep coming in close second in terms of CC.
This isn't intended, what they need to do for Crowd Control:
- Generate Content where it pays to be diverse. The whole business of DPS and run has been cut down by dodge change somewhat, BUT, there is no real reason for Crowd Control to be used in a boss situation, because it doesn't work.
- Update Hold HP to deal with current DPS levels <-- One of my biggest gripes with the system. A hold can have an hour long duration, if the HP isn't there to back it up, it will break after a couple of hits.
- Allow Manipulator to affect breakfree exertion on "Manipulated" Holds - Manipulator should reduce the values a player/NPC is able to exert on a hold via Z mashing, AO's breakfree would stay the same.
That's just the start really, but should a time come when they want to visit that train wreak, I'd love to be around to help.
At this point in time, making a mechanic come to life again, has always and will always prove to be a low priority since people can just use stuns and say CC works.
I'm not attempting to make jibes at Stun focused builds, I've run one with the current system before, whilst it is ridiculously powerful, it's really not how CC is intended nor my style (based on the powers which proc them).
Crowd Control Powers:
Sleep - One strike and you get hold resistance. But useful if you are soloing.
Stun - Great
Incapciderp - Workable
Paralyze - Workable
Root - Fine
Confuse - Useless
Placate - Useless
Snare - Fine
I've beaten this topic to death pretty much, so I'm not going to repost stuff here unless people take me up on this particular topic.
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My point is that NO ONE is needed. You can solo 5 man content with an inferno AT who is technically the worst of all the AT's. You have no need for allies, for friends. You kill everything so fast you don't even need anyone to hit any more damage with you, and this is the worst of all the AT's. If we scale this up to a FF cheese build you yourself may as well not of even turned up as there is no real challenge there is no real need for you to be there, other than the reward you get from it maybe? I don't really care about the reward as one day this game will not exist and what's the point in that reward then, I care about the memories I get from playing the game. I care about the people I meet in the game and the friends I make from playing it. Is that strange? This is a big reason I play PvP despite there being no reward what so ever, in fact you slowly loose money by doing it if you crash and die or need to rebuild / change gear.
That was a pretty big paragraph but the point is I don't think it is limiting play styles by people need to have friends and allies with them but instead it opens up many more possibilities. Instead of only having 14 powers you get 70 overall powers, this in no way means holy trinity.
Think of Guild Wars (1) where there was never REALLY a tank although there was a healing class. In this game in GvG you could have pure teams of Mesmer / Ele or a team of necromancers and you could still do well. The entire idea here is that you have 8 x the powers to work with, you probably need some sort of buff / healing / protection in there this doesn't mean that one player only is using this.
Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about no holy trinity MMO game design but the possibility for team mates to help each other in the places they are lacking which is what happens in teams in anything.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Agreed.
Teaming in CO can be amazingly rewarding if your team is well balanced. I've only ever been in one team PvE wise which was just purely awesome.
I don't think it -should- be the aim of FF to be the best at everything, but rather to have a wide range of skills which can be complemented and strengthened by others.
Example: Healer/Debuffer working with a high agro DPS build both can damage and solo but when working together they become almost unstoppable. <--That is what I'd like to see more of in CO.
I've had the pleasure of teaming with great tanks how absorb all the agro, allowing me to quietly debuff and CC everything without any trouble. I love that.
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He never did QQ about being a healer and not being needed... what the heck did you even read that made you think that to begin with?
And also, if you're not interested in imp or what he does... then why are you trying to berate him for what you think he does? u_u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The way he said it reminded me of the kind of people who DO QQ about it. But he clarified that.
I don't care for what he does =/= what he says on the forum. I replied towards a statement he made you don't get that?
No I never said what you took from what I said. You just presumed by taking a single fairly vague sentence from the paragraph.
Also FYI gradii you can multi quote so you don't have to post 3 posts at once, it's a pretty useful tool on the forums. ;D
Anyway we have sort of taken this thread off course although these are all things linked to what justice gear represented. My point still stands I hope they look into ways to make this new content need help from team mates, things where you get held by a super strong hold that your team mates need to break by pulling a lever or hitting the hold may be a cool way to do this. Maybe.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
" I actually had the most fun I have had in PvE in while when we did that purely because it wasn't exactly 'easy' on some parts where we had 50 mobs all condensed into one area all on elite we had to use the behemoth tanking while I try to debuff / buff / heal everyone and foxi bursts out massive aoe damage. If we were on FF's that had no theme other than beating stuff and there were 5 of us there wouldn't even be a point in us turning up, we wouldn't do anything our health wouldn't go down we would hardly even need to move other than to go to the next objective."
^ This part here looks to me like you were dissing FF because if everyone were FF then "there wouldn't be a point in us turning up" etc. Basically HERE you talk about you healing/debuffing etc... which is only needed with ATs because FF would not care about it and "we would hardly even need to move other than to go to the next objective.". To me that look like you are complaining that "there would be no point" if people were FF to heal/debuff etc... SO yes this is were I get the QQ vibe regarding you wanting people to need that kind of stuff.
I did read what you wrote but you should take a look at it because the overall impression that paragraph gives is FF vs AT/
To need a team there has to be content that requires a team. By that I don't mean gimmick mechanics and astronomical HP for bosses. The AI of everything is CO is basically on the level of "DUH!". There is no "strategy" if the only thing you need to do is survive and pawn on the boss.
There is no feeling of achievement if you go against thing like Gravitar which is 100% gimmick or Cyber Mind (again gimmick) or Forum Malvanum where it's basically a DPS race.
If there were some support powers that in combination would have some adverse effects for bosses then Teaming might be worthwhile. (ie. Sharkam's Bane removing enegry forms -> useful for Gravitar). But most bosses don't require anything except beat them up.
If a debuffer/support toon could prevent a boss from healing or using a dangerous attack or SOMETHING then teaming would then make sense. The current setup does not require anything beyond a decent self sufficient toon.
Build for durability? Thats so easy its not even funny. Part of the reason dodge was nerfed was because it was so easy to build for without even trying. If you think its takes a specific build to be durable/immortal, than you obviously have not been playing long or don't know how to make such characters. And I pity you for you lack of vision.
And obviously you know nothing about what an mmo is supposed to be if you feel that way about people being needed. Since it truly is that way, stop playing mmos for others sake. And yes, you do disregard people's play style, for you just disregarded mine. Thanks for proving me right on at least that one. After all, the main point of a mmo during team play is to feel needed and useful, not to sit there doing nothing.
Also I was not QQing, I was just using an example. Obviously your total lack of compassion for others and disregard for others style has deluded your ability to pick up the difference between a QQ and an example being used.
Guess what, the trinity fully exists in the game and actually makes it fun, but the game actually allows you to ignore the trinity if you want to which is also fun. But run a group that has no heals and no tank and watch people die left and right, unless they are of the immortal FFs, at which point it gets boring quickly. The trinity is not obsolete and will never go obsolete. After all, the most popular rpgmmo, WoW, still runs the system. So you can't argue that the trinity is obsolete. Also, quick question, but who was the first one to call it the "holy trinity" anyways? I've always wondered about that.
And I totally agree that the game should cater to any one play style, but at the same time, just because someone plays a pure healer shouldn't mean they get punished for playing that style and be useless in combat. And I do support any buffs that support can get to be more useful than just pure healing. I'd personally love to see actual buffs/debuffs be implemented into the game beyond howl and illumination.
This is where you misunderstood me then, okay.
Basically I meant that if we were all using the cheese FF builds (all 5 of us) there wouldn't really be a point in having 5 of us at all we may as well only be solo.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Well if you go INT pri with AoPM and go for cd reduction gear you will reach about 30 sec cd on an active defense. Thats with about 450 int, which means you have don't have to sacrifice your secondary SS completely.
Now if you pick two active defenses, like MD and Unbreakable, you can cycle them and have always one running.
And I don't think you made very big sacrifices to get there. Int pri works rather well with AoPM. Concentration scales with int, so you still have a lot of dmg potential if you go ranged.
I don't think that is how the developers intended an active defense to work. If they say that is fine, ok. In the end they decide what should work, and what should not. For me personally, an active defense should be more like an emergency thing.
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Did you ever stop to consider that if the group had 5 Freeforms in it that it would in fact be impossible to invite any ATs to the group at all, meaning that Imp would have to actually BE one of the immortal FFs in question... so how could he possibly be complaining that the immortal FFs would make him feel like he's not needed, when he in fact IS one of them?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
New content is difficult to make because players can potentially be so powerful that they would have to make new content so insanely difficult that non-optimized players couldn't enjoy it, or risk making content that quickly gets trivialized and doesn't end up having much replay value.
Face it. Nerfs=new content.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I have my AD's on 41 second cooldown, I can rotate them with just a 2 second gap in between each other...
41 seconds...
REALLY?
...And you're saying 30 seconds is fine? Are you crazy? Like I don't even understand how that is fine in ANY way, shape or form
Also how many times do you have to be told the reason for the nerfs is to get ready for new content? I expect great things after they finish fixing some of the broken mechanics, look forward to it and make sure that when things are nerfed they are on the same level as everything else that can be slotted in the same location.
Like really, do you hate being beaten sometimes that bad? 0.o
Edit: Foxi beat me to it ;D
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
An AD has 15 sec uptime. So if you have a 45 sec cd, that means your shared cd should be 15 sec. At that point you can use MD, 15 secs later use unbreakable, now you have a 15 sec gap and you can use MD again, than unbreakable, 15sec gap,...
So 45 sec cd gives you 2/3 uptime on active defenses, if you have two.
With 41sec cd you can use one, after 15sc use the other and than you would have a 11 sec gap. If you split the gap evenly you have a 5.5 sec gap between your active defenses. So it might feel like 2sec but it is longer.
With 30sec you have 100% uptime. The shared cd is now lower than 15sec, so you could screw yourself by activating the 2nd early but basically you use like MD, 15 sec after that unbreakable, md again, etc...
So permanent active defense running, and you can combine that with... actually almost anything.
By the way, did they ever fix revitalize + wrist bolter? With that you could get like 100% uptime of md alone.
I agree on the content part. But still, I think cooldown reduction performs a bit too good. It also makes aura of arcane clarity kind of useless, since can have very low cooldowns without it. If you could only get your cooldowns so low with aoac I would be ok with it.
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I have a very good idea how you can build tanks thank you very much. It is you who claimed "immortal toons" that I called you up on it. There is no such thing as invincible. Now you go back on it and say "I was talking about durable...bla bla bla". That's not the same thing.
If you base your argument on a hyperbole and the go on and rant about it then don't expect others not to call you on this. There is no way you can make a toon to be immortal, you will always take at the very least 1 dmg.
I know exactly what this MMO is supposed to be. I don't care about other MMOs and their prerogative neither is "OTHER MMOs" do X,Y,Z applicable to CO. Again you come up with nonsensical arguments based on MMOs? Since when is CO supposed to be like any other MMO. Nowhere in MMO does it say that you have to team up with people. It's Massive Multiplayer not Massive Teamup.
How exactly am I disregarding your playstyle by telling you NOT to EXPECT others to bend over so that your toon concept is viable/needed/wanted. You are just selfish and demand that you should be useful because you are a HEALER QQ. You might not have noticed but ANYONE can heal in CO, how exactly do you expect to be NEEDED eh? You are just being unreasonable.
Example used or not it changes nothing, it's not about compassion it's about 1 person or 1 build asking to be NEEDED at the expense of the people around it. If I don't build a toon that needs a HEALER why should I need a HEALER? Am I supposed to have to change my build just because someone wanted to play a HEALER?
When I make a toon it does not require anyone else for me to enjoy playing it of feeling useful. If you build toons that rely on others need of X then don't expect to be NEEDED.
It's not required to take 2. It's recommended. I could do it just fine with Field Surge as my only AD. That is, if the regen on PFF gets fixed again.
Now STAHP digging your grave. :biggrin:
Edit:
Thinking back on it. The next time I go tank mode on Protogen I won't slot Unbreakable to my power tray just to prove that you don't *NEED* two AD's with PFF.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf