You mean the Inferno and.. god, still can't figure out what the "Swordsman" is.
The Blade.
By sheer coincidence, I'd just come in here to relate my experience today with Finesse, a Blade. I hadn't been playing him that much because he has always tended to die too easily. Today, though, my blade just seemed to melt my opponents - I only had to pop a heal once, and that was mostly because I didn't realize there was someone behind me until it was almost too late. Any nerfs to my defenses have obviously been matched by boosts to my damage, particularly my ability to crit things.
So, no complaints here so far - I'll have to see how my Fist and Master do later.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
That's not at all what I said. When it became clear that dodge and avoidance were the go-to stats for surviving, I didn't automatically start stacking those stats on all my characters because it was the thing to do.
That doesn't at all mean that I don't have character concepts that use dodge.
Try not reading things I don't type into my posts. When you do that I'll allow you to give yourself a happy clap.
Not at all what post sounded like. You post made it sound like you didn't have a character that used Dodge/Avoid gear. If you had one, and you enhanced for it, would that not be getting on the bandwagon? Or does it only count as getting on the bandwagon when your concept isn't one who can be all dodgey and agile, but you still enhance Dodge/Avoid anyways.
I do know my dodge/agile Chainsaw melee using Hero just had her dodge cut down a lot I know my spider-themed dodge/agile concept had her dodge cut down. I know my gunfu martial artist, supernatural levels of agility/dexterity had her dodge cut.
And all of those used passives that were Dodge/Avoid centered. Not Resist Passives that stacked Dodge/Avoid gear.
My PFF Psychokinetic Catgirl, no Dodge/Avoid gear, no Masterful Dodge, built around concept, has been unaffected by this, and she should have a bit of Dodge/Avoid (nimble catgirl and all, but PFF is her main defense not being superhuman dodge type).
I think what really matters in all of this guys, is that I, Caliga am still fine and will continue too be able playing with all of you. Everyone celebrate how awesome I am, and that you are all thankful to be radiating in my glorious millennial flight.
Hail Caliga, for only he matters, in anything!
/fist-bumps Caliga hard enough to knock out Mike Tyson
/takes no damage because we're both INVULNERABLE! :cool:
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Not at all what post sounded like. You post made it sound like you didn't have a character that used Dodge/Avoid gear. If you had one, and you enhanced for it, would that not be getting on the bandwagon? Or does it only count as getting on the bandwagon when your concept isn't one who can be all dodgey and agile, but you still enhance Dodge/Avoid anyways.
I do know my dodge/agile Chainsaw melee using Hero just had her dodge cut down a lot I know my spider-themed dodge/agile concept had her dodge cut down. I know my gunfu martial artist, supernatural levels of agility/dexterity had her dodge cut.
And all of those used passives that were Dodge/Avoid centered. Not Resist Passives that stacked Dodge/Avoid gear.
My PFF Psychokinetic Catgirl, no Dodge/Avoid gear, no Masterful Dodge, built around concept, has been unaffected by this, and she should have a bit of Dodge/Avoid (nimble catgirl and all, but PFF is her main defense not being superhuman dodge type).
I think it was On Alert when people discovered anyone could stack Dodge/Avoidance in just gear, slap on Quarry, and have a DPS-Tank. Jumping on the bandwagon means that when that was discovered, people built around this concept.
What I was saying was that I didn't do that. My characters that weren't all dodgey didn't become all dodgey. Hell my main is still using Personal Force Field, when not running his Offensive Passive.
If I had a character with Lightning Reflexes, and wanted his Dodge to get better, then gearing for Dodge and Avoidance then, wouldn't be on the bandwagon, because that's something you'd naturally do.
I play most of the time running Offensive Passive, on all my characters. I don't think I have one who doesn't have an Offensive Passive (that is the appropriate level to have one). I sometimes switch to a Defensive Passive when the going gets tough. All the while, though, I'm leveling up these characters with no Dodge, or no Avoidance. Basically, without one, the other sucks. I can't imagine that if I switched out to Lightning Reflexes, I'd start dying all the time. Is Dodge now so broken that it's actually detrimental to take?
So the thing is, why am I able to do all this content with ease, without Dodge, and without a Defensive Passive?
Also, what is the content that becomes too difficult for your Dodge characters?
If you are using an offensive passive, a damage toggle and +Offense on your gear (which you were if I remember right) you should be hitting harder as you should be well over the threshhold. Is that loss of two you're reporting the tooltip or from a parser?
From the tooltip, I did not use a parser because my total damage loss is too huge for me to see what happened to my offense strictly.
It kinda is that simple. The damage from +Offense went up, not down because of the formula change. If your DPS dropped significantly it's because of something else in your build(s). Can you post specifics on the build, specs, total offense score, crit chance prior and post patch, etc.? Would help find what's actually happening.
As a min/maxxer, I saw drops because I built according to the system in place.
A few setups were geared towards hitting 50% crit chance, and one specifically hit 100% for 15s getting an additional 50% from con scaling on ego surge.
These were all specialty builds, focusing on hitting specific target numbers.
Offense may have changed, but anything I specifically built for maximum damage saw drops. I wouldn't be surprised if my invincible saw a slight boost, but as a pve team tank I prioritized threat gen and survivability over damage, and as such paid less attention to his damage numbers.
I'm sure my FFs could adapt and I can still solo something like Vik's Andrith ruins. But I was hardly motivated to run it before the changes as is. I've literally done thousands of alerts. The changes have made some alts even weaker, with the undeniable fact that even with their originally higher doge/avoid they were still liabilities in even your basic alert.
When you feel the need to shelve alts because the focus of the game is alerts and those alts lead to more frustration than anything, making them even weaker isn't balancing.
What people clearly seem to miss is that while FFs can run aopm or switch to a def passive and retain most or even gain effectiveness, people who run ATs cannot.
If you want to argue that the game isn't balanced around ATs, one shouldn't be surprised that those new players starting as ATs don't stay long. Not only does that make it harder to sell stuff, it means even fewer people to invest real money into the game.
If you want to argue that the game is easy, you ignore that not everyone has the same experience. I've done things many players will never do, but my own alert experience is a constant reminder that I can't hold everyone to the same standard. Almost the entirety of defeats I've seen in game have either been one shots during the Mega D invasion (10k+ hits after mitigation) or in PvP. I still have 40s that have yet to see 50 defeats (first death perk).
But as I tried to explain before, general across the board nerfing hits the weaker people far harder than it does the power players. My poor marksman was already a glass cannon even with her 50+% dodge, quarry, EM and 7k hp. Now that's down to 30%, and considering my FFs went down from 71.8/72% to 37%, upgrading her gear wouldn't net any significant gain.
This game needs to be easy because it appeals to the more casual player. I've played far more challenging games, but they were geared for a specific audience. A superhero MMO is for players wanting to enjoy a superhero like experience. If I still see super heroes dying regularly within the first 20s of Grav or the first Cybermind Virus Rain, I accept there are always going to be major skill gaps.
But hey, if every time someone expresses dissatisfaction people feel they have to insult said player or disregard said players experience, you're going to find your population dwindle even faster.
The only reason I've managed to stay as long as I have are my SG and what friends have still been around. I understand why they're staying, and they understand why I'm leaving. Why we can't get that general level of mutual respect and understanding on the forums is only more reason for people to go. I do find it especially funny when someone attempts to argue with my reasoning for leaving and then right after is eager to get free stuff.
Not all damage went up. You have to have cerain combinations of new offense and remaining effective damage boosts to see a buff.
Some people have that, and some people don't.
I'm not 100%, but I think if your toon has been stacking Offense, you should get a buff. I've got one where I didn't go as crazy with it, and has suffered a drop. Time to redo the specialisations.
Sorry guys I'm not getting any of this if it wasnt offense that was nerfed we know that was buffed. But something DPS wise was nerfed. What is nerfed. We are all flinging % and % about.
Anyone capable of in one sentence explaining what was nerfed :P
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I'm not 100%, but I think if your toon has been stacking Offense, you should get a buff. I've got one where I didn't go as crazy with it, and has suffered a drop. Time to redo the specialisations.
Not every character has been stacking offense. That's part of the reason for the change. I'd be willing to bet more offensive primary core slots are filled with Gamblers than Impact gems.
Added to that the new offense isn't going to play as nicely with criticals either, if GCs description is accurate, so there's that consideration. There's going to be a lot of re-building on the min/max front, and it'll probo be full of trial, error, and head-scratching.
Sorry guys I'm not getting any of this if it wasnt offense that was nerfed we know that was buffed. But something DPS wise was nerfed. What is nerfed. We are all flinging % and % about.
Anyone capable of in one sentence explaining what was nerfed :P
New offense is a lower displayed number working multiplicitively, so what was nerfed was damage when other buffs weren't high enough, to bridge the gap vs old offense, when multiplied by new offense.
New offense is a lower displayed number working multiplicitively, so what was nerfed was damage when other buffs weren't high enough, to bridge the gap vs old offense, when multiplied by new offense.
Seriously..
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Not every character has been stacking offense. That's part of the reason for the change. I'd be willing to bet more offensive primary core slots are filled with Gamblers than Impact gems.
Added to that the new offense isn't going to play as nicely with criticals either, if GCs description is accurate, so there's that consideration. There's going to be a lot of re-building on the min/max front, and it'll probo be full of trial, error, and head-scratching.
Well, actually, one of my toons is all Gambler's Gems and she's fine. I think it's mostly in specialisations where I let a couple of toons down. I'll just go redo them and they should be fine.
The drop in crits is about a 10% drop in DPS if everything else stays the same. So it's possible to get close back to previous levels. I'm not too fussed about it really.
In the past offense was additive with the damage bonus from passive and forms and stuff like that. So if for instance your base damage was 1000, your form added 100%, your passive added 100%, and offense 40%.
Not counting diminishing returns your non crit damage would be 1000*3,4=3400 damage.
On a crit, with 50% chance and 100% severity you would do double damage half the time, so your average damage would be 3400*0.5+6800*0.5=5100
Now crit chance is lowered and offense is changed be to additive with severity.
So now crit chance is for instance 40% and offense adds 20%.
Your non crit damage would be 1000*3*1.2=3600, and your crits would be doing 1000*3*2.2=6600 damage. Doing an average of 3600*0.6+6600*0.4=4800 damage.
At least this is how it should work in theory from the information we got so far.
But some people claim their non crit damage dropped too... so something else is going on there.
Still this example show how offense can work better now, the non crit damage increased, but the overall damage can be lower since crit chance was lowered. And severity isn't multiplying the damage bonus from offense, but when you do count diminishing returns that should get less important.
You do know how ridiculous you all sound with taking the maths of a super mmo this seriously. Get some DEF gear job done. And not one of you knows whats really been nerfed.
I know I dont
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
At least this is how it should work in theory from the information we got so far.
But some people claim their non crit damage dropped too... so something else is going on there.
In your example you used 40% old and 20% new with 200% outside damage boosts.
I don't believe that there's an offense value that would give 40% in the old system and 20% now so the numbers would look off. Also, ignoring those numbers wouldn't be anything seen ingame, for those numbers 100% outside damage boost would be the break even.
Using the 44/17 offense conversion you can see that 100 + 44 is bigger than 100 * 1.17, 200 + 44 is bigger than 200 * 1.17, and it's not until you reach 259 + 44 and 259 * 1.17 that you actually see new offense go past. One thing to consider is that 100 of each of the previous numbers is 100% base damage.
Some non crit damage went down, because either offense was too low to provide a big enough boost when multiplied against damage and boosts, or damage and boosts were too small to see enough benefit when new offense was multiplied against it.
Bestest Option:
Used option *Don't show player numbers* in the UI menu. No more stress how much you do this or that. You notice quite quickly if you are just shooting 1s.
Second Bestest Option:
Used option *Don't show anyone others numbers* in the UI menu. No more stress how much others do with this and that. Don't really care if they shoot 1s.
Now if i could find an option which would turn the Character info numbers and % to kittens and puppies. Since those numbers with % don't mean anything to me anyway. I'm wearing a Serious stach
CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
And playing by myself since Aug 2009 Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
In your example you used 40% old and 20% new with 200% outside damage boosts.
I don't believe that there's an offense value that would give 40% in the old system and 20% now so the numbers would look off. Also, ignoring those numbers wouldn't be anything seen ingame, for those numbers 100% outside damage boost would be the break even.
Using the 44/17 offense conversion you can see that 100 + 44 is bigger than 100 * 1.17, 200 + 44 is bigger than 200 * 1.17, and it's not until you reach 259 + 44 and 259 * 1.17 that you actually see new offense go past. One thing to consider is that 100 of each of the previous numbers is 100% base damage.
Some non crit damage went down, because either offense was too low to provide a big enough boost when multiplied against damage and boosts, or damage and boosts were too small to see enough benefit when new offense was multiplied against it.
My example wasn't meant to be exact, just a quick run down how the numbers work.
But if you do want to get close to the actual numbers in the game.. you are not counting diminishing returns in your example. That 44% damage bonus from offense never actually added 44% to your damage, so the new offense should overtake the old one a bit faster... all on non crits of course.
Since we (I) don't really know how those diminishing returns work, calculating it like that is not possible.
My example wasn't meant to be exact, just a quick run down how the numbers work.
But if you do want to get close to the actual numbers in the game.. you are not counting diminishing returns in your example. That 44% damage bonus from offense never actually added 44% to your damage, so the new offense should overtake the old one a bit faster... all on non crits of course.
Since we (I) don't really know how those diminishing returns work, calculating it like that is not possible.
That's fair, my main thing is that some numbers did get smaller, some got bigger. Once that's established, it's easier to help people actually get their numbers bigger if that's something they're looking to do.
Remember, folks, it's not how big your number is, it's how you use it that counts.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
True. M'bad. So basically you went from too easy to a little less than too easy? I don't see that as a big problem.
No. I went from less than dodgey type to even more less than dodgey type.
If they instead put a hard cap on one's dodge outside of using EM or MD. Maybe a different harcap for Dodge/Passive users versus non-Dodge/Passive Users, and then allowed those Dodge/Passive users to obtain 100% avoid, so they can, you know, actually dodge, this wouldn't be bad.
Currently I'm not even considering the lower numbers of using EM in my dodgey concept, I'm talking (typing) straight built for dodge through passive/gear.
Currently I'm not even considering the lower numbers of using EM in my dodgey concept, I'm talking (typing) straight built for dodge through passive/gear.
I got an Archetype to 94% Dodge/82% Avoid in about 5 minutes of testing, using nothing but Heroic and Armadillo gear, and R5 mods. Switching in one Legion gear and R7s, I hit 98.8%. I'm pretty sure that if I had a Vigilante Dodge secpndary, I could have hit 100%.
Oh, and if I'd had some generic purple secondary gear, I probably would have had better numbers. I was working with what I could easily copy to Test.
With an offensive passive, I can't remember the numbers I hit, but I think it was around 40% Dodge/60% Avoid. I'll have to check later.
If I can get ATs that dodgy, how can anyone be having trouble doing the same with Freeforms? Unless they're trying to do so with no passive or specs that add Dodge?
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I like my dodge character. I like it when they are stand there and the word dodge appears above their head and I imagine in my head that they did a cool dodge thing :O
Then I run around and pretend that I had to run around cause the bad guys were trying to get me if I didn't run around! :O
Is this game worth playing? I've read nothing but negative comments so far. The positive ones, don't seem to come from a pvp perspective. I wanted to give this game a try, because i have watched a few really nice pvp videos.
Is this game worth playing? I've read nothing but negative comments so far. The positive ones, don't seem to come from a pvp perspective. I wanted to give this game a try, because i have watched a few really nice pvp videos.
Any idea? Thx in advance.
Well I play it like 20 hours every day.... so obviously there's something worth doing here :P
In general, there's making costumes, cool powers that look cool, there's knocks that send things flying, and if you happen to get your hands on a freeform there's the fun of sitting in the powerhouse and making your character play exactly the way you want!
There is in fact a lot of negativity regarding pvp. However, there are a good core group of players in this game who love pvp, and there is fun to be had in there if you're the right type of person.
Is this game worth playing? I've read nothing but negative comments so far. The positive ones, don't seem to come from a pvp perspective. I wanted to give this game a try, because i have watched a few really nice pvp videos.
Any idea? Thx in advance.
Colonel, a Silver is free. Pick an AT, give it a whirl. If you like it, great, welcome aboard! And if you don't, well, I hope you enjoyed what you did do, and I wish you well in finding a game that suits you better.
That way, you don't have to get your impressions filtered through bittervets who still hold Atari's ancient sins against the brand-new Cryptic North.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Is this game worth playing? I've read nothing but negative comments so far. The positive ones, don't seem to come from a pvp perspective. I wanted to give this game a try, because i have watched a few really nice pvp videos.
But as I tried to explain before, general across the board nerfing hits the weaker people far harder than it does the power players. ...
This game needs to be easy because it appeals to the more casual player. ... I accept there are always going to be major skill gaps.
But hey, if every time someone expresses dissatisfaction people feel they have to insult said player or disregard said players experience, you're going to find your population dwindle even faster.
Because the forum is a bit of an echo chamber.
There are only about a dozen or two posters.
There are a few *extremely* knowledgeable people, who can state impressive accomplishments and perform at amazing levels. Those accomplishments are then taken as proof and used as baselines that the game should be built around.
There are a few posters here for social and attention-need reasons, to spam threads with pictures, gibberish, and snide remarks. They can derail any conversation left.
So there is a high standard set by the pros, and kind of fan group after.
It's not really a healthy forum. The game population is just too low to foster one, so it has become a bit of an echo chamber.
There are a few *extremely* knowledgeable people, who can state impressive accomplishments and perform at amazing levels. Those accomplishments are then taken as proof and used as baselines that the game should be built around.
There are a few posters here for social and attention-need reasons, to spam threads with pictures, gibberish, and snide remarks. They can derail any conversation left.
So there is a high standard set by the pros, and kind of fan group after.
It's not really a healthy forum. The game population is just too low to foster one, so it has become a bit of an echo chamber.
There are a few *extremely* knowledgeable people, who can state impressive accomplishments and perform at amazing levels. Those accomplishments are then taken as proof and used as baselines that the game should be built around.
There are a few posters here for social and attention-need reasons, to spam threads with pictures, gibberish, and snide remarks. They can derail any conversation left.
So there is a high standard set by the pros, and kind of fan group after.
It's not really a healthy forum. The game population is just too low to foster one, so it has become a bit of an echo chamber.
I wish the highlighted part were actually true for a single week. If it ever were people would see just how much all the changes to the game over the years aren't based around the min/maxers so they could stop repeating this empty statement.
If that were true you'd actually see a far harder game, with far higher diminishing returns on just about everything, a steeper nerf on dodge, a nerf to healing, a removal of cooldown reduction, a nerf to cost reduction, diminishing returns placed on CON, INT removed as a stat to give END more of an overall purpose, more defense penetration from mobs, self healing added to more mobs, a hard cap on crit severity, soft cap on crit chance lowered to 25% or lower, removal of specs and advantages that grant flat crit chance, etc. It would take pretty much all of that and yet we see almost none of it. To be frank, none of the changes implemented within the last year plus have really affected any of the min/maxers beyond the changes to devices for those people who relied so heavily on them. But most people knew better than that so basically none of the changes did squat. So if the dev targeted baseline is the min/maxers then we'd have to agree their aim is off as that's who has been hit the least...
So, ladies and gentlemen, I got a few words of wisdom.
SUCK IT UP.
^ This, so much this.
Stop complaining about the nerf and use that FREE RETCON TOKEN THEY GAVE YOU to adapt!
Turando abused the hell out of dodge (Mostly Quarry). It allowed him to be a Tanky Healer with Decent DPS (Roaming around with only 5k HP might I add). Never had to worry about a thing, now I've got something to pay a little more attention to aside from my teammates.
SO YAY!
Accept the change, adapt to it, and move on. Sitting around complaining about something because "Oh, I'm not OP anymore" is by far the stupidest thing you can do.
Dodge-based ATs and freeform players who build for dodge should be performing better since dodge-based powers now give flat dodge chance bonuses instead of rating.
I'm starting to to highly suspect that the most vocal protesters against the recent changes are truly just sour about no longer being able to slap on their R3 defensive passive gear substitutes onto every offensive passive build that they make.
I'm starting to to highly suspect that the most vocal protesters against the recent changes are truly just sour about no longer being able to slap on their R3 defensive passive gear substitutes onto every offensive passive build that they make.
Dodge-based ATs and freeform players who build for dodge should be performing better since dodge-based powers now give flat dodge chance bonuses instead of rating.
We should be. We're not. LR really didn't need to go up. But Way of the Warrior has been hit hard by the changes, same for NW and Quarry. WotW is specifically a melee passive. So why is it so squishy?
If anyone that has been in BASH with me can confirm I still manage rather high dodge and thats just with gear. Doesnt dodge like freaking Neo but dodges ENOUGH. But isnt this thread about DPS and I think Imp has figured out whats going on here. http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=251131
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Comments
By sheer coincidence, I'd just come in here to relate my experience today with Finesse, a Blade. I hadn't been playing him that much because he has always tended to die too easily. Today, though, my blade just seemed to melt my opponents - I only had to pop a heal once, and that was mostly because I didn't realize there was someone behind me until it was almost too late. Any nerfs to my defenses have obviously been matched by boosts to my damage, particularly my ability to crit things.
So, no complaints here so far - I'll have to see how my Fist and Master do later.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Not at all what post sounded like. You post made it sound like you didn't have a character that used Dodge/Avoid gear. If you had one, and you enhanced for it, would that not be getting on the bandwagon? Or does it only count as getting on the bandwagon when your concept isn't one who can be all dodgey and agile, but you still enhance Dodge/Avoid anyways.
I do know my dodge/agile Chainsaw melee using Hero just had her dodge cut down a lot
And all of those used passives that were Dodge/Avoid centered. Not Resist Passives that stacked Dodge/Avoid gear.
My PFF Psychokinetic Catgirl, no Dodge/Avoid gear, no Masterful Dodge, built around concept, has been unaffected by this, and she should have a bit of Dodge/Avoid (nimble catgirl and all, but PFF is her main defense not being superhuman dodge type).
/fist-bumps Caliga hard enough to knock out Mike Tyson
/takes no damage because we're both INVULNERABLE! :cool:
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
sunglasses where are you
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Excuse me, but Caliga uses Defiance. He takes no damage anyway...
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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Wisdom... I do not think that word means what you think it means. :rolleyes:
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
I think it was On Alert when people discovered anyone could stack Dodge/Avoidance in just gear, slap on Quarry, and have a DPS-Tank. Jumping on the bandwagon means that when that was discovered, people built around this concept.
What I was saying was that I didn't do that. My characters that weren't all dodgey didn't become all dodgey. Hell my main is still using Personal Force Field, when not running his Offensive Passive.
If I had a character with Lightning Reflexes, and wanted his Dodge to get better, then gearing for Dodge and Avoidance then, wouldn't be on the bandwagon, because that's something you'd naturally do.
I play most of the time running Offensive Passive, on all my characters. I don't think I have one who doesn't have an Offensive Passive (that is the appropriate level to have one). I sometimes switch to a Defensive Passive when the going gets tough. All the while, though, I'm leveling up these characters with no Dodge, or no Avoidance. Basically, without one, the other sucks. I can't imagine that if I switched out to Lightning Reflexes, I'd start dying all the time. Is Dodge now so broken that it's actually detrimental to take?
So the thing is, why am I able to do all this content with ease, without Dodge, and without a Defensive Passive?
Also, what is the content that becomes too difficult for your Dodge characters?
From the tooltip, I did not use a parser because my total damage loss is too huge for me to see what happened to my offense strictly.
I never said the content was difficult. o.O What I said, was all my dodgey characters became less dodgey. Some more than others.
As a min/maxxer, I saw drops because I built according to the system in place.
A few setups were geared towards hitting 50% crit chance, and one specifically hit 100% for 15s getting an additional 50% from con scaling on ego surge.
These were all specialty builds, focusing on hitting specific target numbers.
Offense may have changed, but anything I specifically built for maximum damage saw drops. I wouldn't be surprised if my invincible saw a slight boost, but as a pve team tank I prioritized threat gen and survivability over damage, and as such paid less attention to his damage numbers.
I'm sure my FFs could adapt and I can still solo something like Vik's Andrith ruins. But I was hardly motivated to run it before the changes as is. I've literally done thousands of alerts. The changes have made some alts even weaker, with the undeniable fact that even with their originally higher doge/avoid they were still liabilities in even your basic alert.
When you feel the need to shelve alts because the focus of the game is alerts and those alts lead to more frustration than anything, making them even weaker isn't balancing.
What people clearly seem to miss is that while FFs can run aopm or switch to a def passive and retain most or even gain effectiveness, people who run ATs cannot.
If you want to argue that the game isn't balanced around ATs, one shouldn't be surprised that those new players starting as ATs don't stay long. Not only does that make it harder to sell stuff, it means even fewer people to invest real money into the game.
If you want to argue that the game is easy, you ignore that not everyone has the same experience. I've done things many players will never do, but my own alert experience is a constant reminder that I can't hold everyone to the same standard. Almost the entirety of defeats I've seen in game have either been one shots during the Mega D invasion (10k+ hits after mitigation) or in PvP. I still have 40s that have yet to see 50 defeats (first death perk).
But as I tried to explain before, general across the board nerfing hits the weaker people far harder than it does the power players. My poor marksman was already a glass cannon even with her 50+% dodge, quarry, EM and 7k hp. Now that's down to 30%, and considering my FFs went down from 71.8/72% to 37%, upgrading her gear wouldn't net any significant gain.
This game needs to be easy because it appeals to the more casual player. I've played far more challenging games, but they were geared for a specific audience. A superhero MMO is for players wanting to enjoy a superhero like experience. If I still see super heroes dying regularly within the first 20s of Grav or the first Cybermind Virus Rain, I accept there are always going to be major skill gaps.
But hey, if every time someone expresses dissatisfaction people feel they have to insult said player or disregard said players experience, you're going to find your population dwindle even faster.
The only reason I've managed to stay as long as I have are my SG and what friends have still been around. I understand why they're staying, and they understand why I'm leaving. Why we can't get that general level of mutual respect and understanding on the forums is only more reason for people to go. I do find it especially funny when someone attempts to argue with my reasoning for leaving and then right after is eager to get free stuff.
Anyone capable of in one sentence explaining what was nerfed :P
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Not every character has been stacking offense. That's part of the reason for the change. I'd be willing to bet more offensive primary core slots are filled with Gamblers than Impact gems.
Added to that the new offense isn't going to play as nicely with criticals either, if GCs description is accurate, so there's that consideration. There's going to be a lot of re-building on the min/max front, and it'll probo be full of trial, error, and head-scratching.
New offense is a lower displayed number working multiplicitively, so what was nerfed was damage when other buffs weren't high enough, to bridge the gap vs old offense, when multiplied by new offense.
Seriously..
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Well, actually, one of my toons is all Gambler's Gems and she's fine. I think it's mostly in specialisations where I let a couple of toons down. I'll just go redo them and they should be fine.
The drop in crits is about a 10% drop in DPS if everything else stays the same. So it's possible to get close back to previous levels. I'm not too fussed about it really.
In the past offense was additive with the damage bonus from passive and forms and stuff like that. So if for instance your base damage was 1000, your form added 100%, your passive added 100%, and offense 40%.
Not counting diminishing returns your non crit damage would be 1000*3,4=3400 damage.
On a crit, with 50% chance and 100% severity you would do double damage half the time, so your average damage would be 3400*0.5+6800*0.5=5100
Now crit chance is lowered and offense is changed be to additive with severity.
So now crit chance is for instance 40% and offense adds 20%.
Your non crit damage would be 1000*3*1.2=3600, and your crits would be doing 1000*3*2.2=6600 damage. Doing an average of 3600*0.6+6600*0.4=4800 damage.
At least this is how it should work in theory from the information we got so far.
But some people claim their non crit damage dropped too... so something else is going on there.
Still this example show how offense can work better now, the non crit damage increased, but the overall damage can be lower since crit chance was lowered. And severity isn't multiplying the damage bonus from offense, but when you do count diminishing returns that should get less important.
I know I dont
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
In your example you used 40% old and 20% new with 200% outside damage boosts.
I don't believe that there's an offense value that would give 40% in the old system and 20% now so the numbers would look off. Also, ignoring those numbers wouldn't be anything seen ingame, for those numbers 100% outside damage boost would be the break even.
Using the 44/17 offense conversion you can see that 100 + 44 is bigger than 100 * 1.17, 200 + 44 is bigger than 200 * 1.17, and it's not until you reach 259 + 44 and 259 * 1.17 that you actually see new offense go past. One thing to consider is that 100 of each of the previous numbers is 100% base damage.
Some non crit damage went down, because either offense was too low to provide a big enough boost when multiplied against damage and boosts, or damage and boosts were too small to see enough benefit when new offense was multiplied against it.
Used option *Don't show player numbers* in the UI menu. No more stress how much you do this or that. You notice quite quickly if you are just shooting 1s.
Second Bestest Option:
Used option *Don't show anyone others numbers* in the UI menu. No more stress how much others do with this and that. Don't really care if they shoot 1s.
Now if i could find an option which would turn the Character info numbers and % to kittens and puppies. Since those numbers with % don't mean anything to me anyway.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
My example wasn't meant to be exact, just a quick run down how the numbers work.
But if you do want to get close to the actual numbers in the game.. you are not counting diminishing returns in your example. That 44% damage bonus from offense never actually added 44% to your damage, so the new offense should overtake the old one a bit faster... all on non crits of course.
Since we (I) don't really know how those diminishing returns work, calculating it like that is not possible.
That's fair, my main thing is that some numbers did get smaller, some got bigger. Once that's established, it's easier to help people actually get their numbers bigger if that's something they're looking to do.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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True. M'bad. So basically you went from too easy to a little less than too easy? I don't see that as a big problem.
No. I went from less than dodgey type to even more less than dodgey type.
If they instead put a hard cap on one's dodge outside of using EM or MD. Maybe a different harcap for Dodge/Passive users versus non-Dodge/Passive Users, and then allowed those Dodge/Passive users to obtain 100% avoid, so they can, you know, actually dodge, this wouldn't be bad.
Currently I'm not even considering the lower numbers of using EM in my dodgey concept, I'm talking (typing) straight built for dodge through passive/gear.
I got an Archetype to 94% Dodge/82% Avoid in about 5 minutes of testing, using nothing but Heroic and Armadillo gear, and R5 mods. Switching in one Legion gear and R7s, I hit 98.8%. I'm pretty sure that if I had a Vigilante Dodge secpndary, I could have hit 100%.
Oh, and if I'd had some generic purple secondary gear, I probably would have had better numbers. I was working with what I could easily copy to Test.
With an offensive passive, I can't remember the numbers I hit, but I think it was around 40% Dodge/60% Avoid. I'll have to check later.
If I can get ATs that dodgy, how can anyone be having trouble doing the same with Freeforms? Unless they're trying to do so with no passive or specs that add Dodge?
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Yes. But in this case, not the sort of help a gaming company can give you.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
And definitely not the type that other players (99.9%+ of potential respondents) can provide.
Well, I guess we could give money from our own pockets to soothe the OP's butthurt, but...
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Then I run around and pretend that I had to run around cause the bad guys were trying to get me if I didn't run around! :O
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Any idea? Thx in advance.
Well I play it like 20 hours every day.... so obviously there's something worth doing here :P
In general, there's making costumes, cool powers that look cool, there's knocks that send things flying, and if you happen to get your hands on a freeform there's the fun of sitting in the powerhouse and making your character play exactly the way you want!
There is in fact a lot of negativity regarding pvp. However, there are a good core group of players in this game who love pvp, and there is fun to be had in there if you're the right type of person.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Jobs that scarce where you are?
Wait? Whaaaa..?
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
That way, you don't have to get your impressions filtered through bittervets who still hold Atari's ancient sins against the brand-new Cryptic North.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Now two rifles instead of one
My build still dances
Where you min/max
There is equilibrium
Don't be a wuss. Install the game. :biggrin:
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
Because the forum is a bit of an echo chamber.
There are only about a dozen or two posters.
There are a few *extremely* knowledgeable people, who can state impressive accomplishments and perform at amazing levels. Those accomplishments are then taken as proof and used as baselines that the game should be built around.
There are a few posters here for social and attention-need reasons, to spam threads with pictures, gibberish, and snide remarks. They can derail any conversation left.
So there is a high standard set by the pros, and kind of fan group after.
It's not really a healthy forum. The game population is just too low to foster one, so it has become a bit of an echo chamber.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Nailed it.
I wish the highlighted part were actually true for a single week. If it ever were people would see just how much all the changes to the game over the years aren't based around the min/maxers so they could stop repeating this empty statement.
If that were true you'd actually see a far harder game, with far higher diminishing returns on just about everything, a steeper nerf on dodge, a nerf to healing, a removal of cooldown reduction, a nerf to cost reduction, diminishing returns placed on CON, INT removed as a stat to give END more of an overall purpose, more defense penetration from mobs, self healing added to more mobs, a hard cap on crit severity, soft cap on crit chance lowered to 25% or lower, removal of specs and advantages that grant flat crit chance, etc. It would take pretty much all of that and yet we see almost none of it. To be frank, none of the changes implemented within the last year plus have really affected any of the min/maxers beyond the changes to devices for those people who relied so heavily on them. But most people knew better than that so basically none of the changes did squat. So if the dev targeted baseline is the min/maxers then we'd have to agree their aim is off as that's who has been hit the least...
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
^ This, so much this.
Stop complaining about the nerf and use that FREE RETCON TOKEN THEY GAVE YOU to adapt!
Turando abused the hell out of dodge (Mostly Quarry). It allowed him to be a Tanky Healer with Decent DPS (Roaming around with only 5k HP might I add). Never had to worry about a thing, now I've got something to pay a little more attention to aside from my teammates.
SO YAY!
Accept the change, adapt to it, and move on. Sitting around complaining about something because "Oh, I'm not OP anymore" is by far the stupidest thing you can do.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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I'm starting to to highly suspect that the most vocal protesters against the recent changes are truly just sour about no longer being able to slap on their R3 defensive passive gear substitutes onto every offensive passive build that they make.
That-at-at.
Is-is-is.
A-a-a.
Dirty-irty-irty.
Lie-ie-ie.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
This. My thoughts exactly.
We should be. We're not. LR really didn't need to go up. But Way of the Warrior has been hit hard by the changes, same for NW and Quarry. WotW is specifically a melee passive. So why is it so squishy?
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!