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Unacceptible, Cryptic.
missmaeheym
Posts: 33 Arc User
This wasn't balancing. This was a gutting.
Everything about my characters oriented around DPS from high offense. Not even necessarily crit. I could understand a bit of crit chance reduction. That was ok.
But to totally gut the impact of Offense the way you did went beyond the pale.
550 offense gives +17% dmg strength?? Down from +44%?? REALLY??
Are you going to recompense me for all the time/effort/resources spent equipping my characters around the Offense concept?
Retcon is all fine and dandy, but NOBODY equips characters with the idea that the people who make the game are going to come in behind them and completely invalidate the effectiveness of the very concepts on which your character is designed.
Clearly you had an idea, but it was not thought through all the way, nor tested as thoroughly as was needed. You need to revisit your changes, asap.
-- Miss Mayhem (aka Sanction aka Mynx aka WARHEAD)
1004 days subscribed----and perhaps not much longer.
Everything about my characters oriented around DPS from high offense. Not even necessarily crit. I could understand a bit of crit chance reduction. That was ok.
But to totally gut the impact of Offense the way you did went beyond the pale.
550 offense gives +17% dmg strength?? Down from +44%?? REALLY??
Are you going to recompense me for all the time/effort/resources spent equipping my characters around the Offense concept?
Retcon is all fine and dandy, but NOBODY equips characters with the idea that the people who make the game are going to come in behind them and completely invalidate the effectiveness of the very concepts on which your character is designed.
Clearly you had an idea, but it was not thought through all the way, nor tested as thoroughly as was needed. You need to revisit your changes, asap.
-- Miss Mayhem (aka Sanction aka Mynx aka WARHEAD)
1004 days subscribed----and perhaps not much longer.
Post edited by missmaeheym on
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The result is that offense has a bigger effect than before, and your actual damage is higher.
Long story short, the math changed.
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Where the hell is this spreadsheet obsession getting us except one toxic argument after the next? Unless you are a compulsive arguer who wallows in misery, how the hell is this fun? How is this the wonderful pastime, the welcome respite from a screwed up world and the dull routines and petty frustrations of everyday life, that gaming should bloody well be?
Fricking WoW and their **** meters and their gear scores and the other leet garbage that's come from raiding culture have ruined MMOs. It's time to take them back. It's time to stop obsessing over the damn numbers and start having fun again. The numbers are useful for playtest. The playtest is over. Let's play the actual game and then see if problems arise before getting upset over the numbers.
/end soapbox
Edit: I habve fun Thunderax, though years of playing rpgs has convinced me other wise you don't fight the big boss with lv 15 gear when you are lv 30 XD.... but otherwise, yes, you all should have fun, consider the number secondary.
Handle: @Kurobasa
I don't think you should make it sound like you have to be an awesome character builder to not be affected by these changes. I'm fine with the changes and I'm no great character builder. I build only for concept and never joined the dodge/avoid bandwagon. I don't see what the big issue is. The game is still easy.
Yes.
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Man, it must suck to be them.
I mean, to have their Dodge unchanged... Poor guys. Mine got buffed.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Some people fall into some invisible trap that their imaginary luck is so bad that they always fail at something even if the odds are 99%. In short they feel they need 100% to see any respectable change, and any proof you offer to the contrary is always wrong no matter what you say, proof you give and having them demonstrating for you with an actual tracker running.
This change has done nothing to me, other than increase my over all damage output, and yea I even had some invested dodge, I still tanked Gravitar like a pro post change, and the damage output against me didn't go up either.
It won't matter how much evidence you present in the end, these people have convinced themselves that they are some how an exception to the rule. And they refuse to accept the facts as they really are.
Sorry, but I will have to strongly disagree with this remark. WoW didn't create this ideal, nor did WoW start MMOs or any other myriad things that WoW is often given the credit for. Munchkinning is as old as gaming itself, and there are always going to be people that obsess over that 0.1% difference, no matter how beneficial it is. Even chess has its munchkins, the people who sit there and plan out their moves way in advance and consider every outcome. People just tend to call it being strategic more.
Hell, even the hero game mechanics are a munchkin paradise, along with many other game systems.
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Oh believe me Biff, I'm not, it's just, from my perspective it seems like people just don't want to adapt and change, hell, evolve their builds to a new level sometimes because something that has been working got changed. Now, just to clarify, I have only ever been gold for one month ever out of my almost 3 years on Champs... and that was two years ago and I didn't even really bother with builds. That changes today though especially because these changes made me want to get gold.
Edit: What I meant was FBM, was that despite the nerf to dodge, it really didn't stop ether of those two from still making dodge viable from what they said in the S.E.C.R.E.T. Chat channel, and I was with Kenpo for some of his testing in the powerhouse last night. Now, when I get those sub cards today and get gold, I plan to make for one of many toons I plan to make will be a dodge passive toon, because I am not going to let a nerf ruin my ideas and concepts.
Handle: @Kurobasa
I ran Gravitar with a 4.4k HP Crowd Controller and only almost died 3 times.
Gravitar on the other hand went down like a ton of bricks, it was like all the rage from the dodge change was shoved in her face.
I will admit though, I've had to change fighting tactics on some of my characters, simply because, dodge allowed me to use charge attacks more often, I can still use them but not as often so spamming or tapping actually increase my DPS.
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Why did they punish those who actually have DEX as A SUPERSTAT and gain their crits from it? It would have made better sense to nerf those who get their 40% crit chance from gear alone, I mean... yeah. With 430 DEx, I had less than 34% crit chance. I just dunno, damn.
The gear is no effort whatsoever.
Maybe I should have that AOPM and CRIT GEAR, right. (I have the same crit chance on my grimoire, that's just sad)
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I'm probably going to be lazy and not even bother switching out crit and dodge gems.
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Yup. Dodge builds tested that I remember you were present for were Justice, Broken Arrow and Stalker. I don't think you were there for R.E.L.I.C., Blur or Stone.
But at any rate I chose those during the limited time I had last night because they represented a good assortment of the different ways I use dodge.
Dodge with a dodge passive (Quarry, Way of the Warrior and Night Warrior)
Dodge without a dodge passive (Aura of Primal Majesty and Defiance)
Dodge with ranged (Stalker, Justice, Broken Arrow)
Dodge with melee (Justice, Stalker, R.E.L.I.C., Stone, Blur)
Dodge layered on top of another defense for tanking/off-tanking (Stone)
I had no issues anywhere (as you bore witness to) and the only dodge related change I made last night was dropping Parry from Stone to give him Fluidity so he can maintain 70 dodge/70 avoidance on top of Defiance whenever I feel like adding another persistent layer of defense on top of everything else he has going on. I may do that for Crimson Komodo as well but she's a little different so her numbers won't be quite as high if I do.
And everyone hits harder and kills faster which is damage mitigation in and of itself since dead enemies aren't hurting anyone...usually...
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
The 800lb gorilla may not have started the culture but it sure did spread it and mutated it into an especially nasty form.
I pretty much lost all interest in the other supers game that's out right now once I heard about their endgame, gear score and all. SCR, 11k Q secondaries and R5 mods are enough for me.
For the "nerf", so far my AT characters that got their dodge from a SCR breastplate of agility and a gamblers were still sitting right around where they were before (usually just under 20ish from just over 20ish). Damage done hasn't noticeably changed either.
About the only one I expect to actually feel a difference on is my DP/Devices conversion with BCR/RR and Quarry. That one was pretty much the definition of tankmage. Nearly as survivable with Quarry in an offensive role as with a defensive passive in support or defensive roles and does a ton more damage to boot. Tankmaging is fun on occasions but it usually means you shouldn't get too attached to whatever is letting you do it.
Last night I ran through about 9 of my toons and tried Gravitar. There were no failures. I died a couple of times, but that's not really that unusual. The encounter felt maybe 5% harder, but that's just a gut feeling.
At any rate, I really think some people doth protest too much. Way, way, too much.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Hi. I'm the voice of sanity saying that my Behemoth of all toons got a damage BUFF last night. Now with Aggressor at R3, A Retaliation R2 block, and a fully charged Demolish with R2 and Adv ALL Applied.... my Roomsweeper, That's right MY ROOMSWEEPER of all things, does 10K crits and 6K regulars. Haymaker gets up to 12K with it all applied and 8K without it. And that's at R2 with Nullifying punch. (All of this was against the Progenitors at Andrithal. Couldn't find a Golem)
Now you might be saying "BUT GFN! You probably geared for crit sev!" Nope. I didn't. Sev is just 60%. Chance is 18.6%. "But your survivability is gonna drop!" Not really. I mean yes.. less chance means that the Crit=Heals spec isn't going to proc as much. But that only means I'll need to watch my health a bit more. Means I'll have to do Blocking. I say "woo!", since I already block A LOT to get that double damage going thanks to retaliation. So, ladies and gentlemen, I got a few words of wisdom.
No, I don't crunch numbers.
No, I am not very good at builds. It took me forever to find something that worked well.
So, YES, I have to go off what I am seeing on the character sheet and in the numbers I see when fighting.
and yes, despite what you people claim SHOULD be reality, my dps did drop.
And yet, through all these through all these carefully crafted witticisms lambasting the validity of my original post, only one person actually tried to offer any sort of understanding, helpful response.
Thank you, Kempo. I appreciate your effort.
It is a glaring spotlight on the community that the first instinct is to blast the OP to deny their thoughts any weight or meaning.
Again...Astonishing.
Considering the flood of DOOM! posts this may be your first but the boards have seen more than their fair share of them.
Offense getting moved to a different layer means a smaller displayed number can have a bigger effect on your total damage than a larger number in the old layer.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Isn't demanding recompense asking for help?
Ok, but it didn't for me or seemingly any the other people posting here...
so I'm kind of stumped.
Sorry!
heck, I actually use dodge and avoid (still do btw, that heroic agility piece is still slotted on whatever characters had it before!) and the nerf barely affected me. My dps characters are still dpstanking alerts like wild fiends.
Who didn't get the memo? The apocalypse was cancelled, ninja kitty slew the evil horsemen.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
17% multiplicitive vs 44% additive. In order for the 17% to match what they had with 44% they'd need at least a 158.8% total working damage buff in order to match the 44%. Anything above that would be in the new offense's favor. Anything less and they'd be better with old offense.
Check (Initial 100% is base damage):
100% + 100% + 44% = 244% total
(100% + 100%) * 1.17 = 234%
100% + 150% + 44% = 294%
(100% + 150%) * 1.17 = 292%
100% + 158.8 + 44% = 302.8%
(100% + 158.8) * 1.17 = 302.8% <--- Break even point
100% + 200% + 44% = 344%
(100% + 200%) * 1.17 = 351% <--- Andvantage demonstrated
Some people will have more damage with the new offense, others won't. It's not a global buff, and I've seen as many people with lower damage as I have seen with more damage. Mostly this seems to be a buff to people who already had high levels of damage buffs, and people with lower and moderate ammounts of buff and damage boosts should see less damage.
Ok stop right there. Cryptic has stopped using Cryptic maths and are using real maths now. You see the offense stats down on your info and you freak out. Your DPS hasnt gone down because offense has WENT UP its just how its shown on the stats page thats changed. Unless you come from Wonderland where up is down, then you have my sincere condolences .
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
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"Listen, this patch hasn't affected me, therefore the ones that it has affected are being whiny. Stop throwing a tantrum, they are just 'numbers' and no one really cares about mini-maxing your numbers, or at least I don't care about your numbers. This nerf works to my advantage, so the best thing you can do is STFU."
Actually, from what I tested before the server went completely bonkers...
I still couldn't bring myself to care about the changes. It's not that they don't affect me (they do), but it's really hard to care about someone breaking your skateboard when you live on a dirt road.
You dont understand Cyber. The number on the offense stat screen has went down. BUT the damage it causes has went UP. Most of my toons are a bit borked now due to the nerf and I dont really like the nerf but I paid attention to what was coming, I understood it.
But the OP screaming my offense is down when across the board when its really up is an overreaction to what they have seen on the stats screen.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Not all damage went up. You have to have cerain combinations of new offense and remaining effective damage boosts to see a buff.
Some people have that, and some people don't.
But thats due to changes in powers not offense, I smell some stealth nerfs on certain powers after having a look at some numbers and thats the unacceptable part, I detest stealth power nerfs.
Now if the OP gave us his/her power list we can test and see what powers have been nerfed behind our backs instead of going THE SKY IS FALLING \o\
Offense has gone up not down so its something else.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Handle: @Kurobasa
I hear ya, I'd be more worried about moving to a better road too.
Thank you for taking the time to post this (admittedly I wasn't). This is exactly what I was getting at in my first reply in this thread. I'm only left wondering who (besides some ATs) doesn't have fairly high levels of damage buffs as there is almost no reason not to in the game's current state.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
And I ripped him a new bolt-hole. It wasn't even difficult. I did die a little later, fighting the Irradiates at the choke-point just south of the ghost town, but that was because I let myself get surrounded and all the particle effects slowed my screen just enough that I didn't hit my heal in time.
I'll play some of my other toons later, just to see what's what with them. It's worth noting, though, that I'm still Silver, so every last one of them is an AT.
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Yay! You didn't have a concept for a character that was agile and dodgey! *claps for Biff*
No, look at the numbers I posted previously. The way multiplicitive works means, if it's percentage is less than the additive alternative, than the base damage + damage bufs must reach a certain point to see benefit.
Honestly I doubt there were stealth power nerfs, but the thing that's driving me up the wall is the additive buff DR. I thought additive was simply additive, and the DR was just the standard Proportional benefit DR you see with additive buffs. Instead there is an actual DR curve that mean I have no way to see what my damage buffs actually are without taking some fairly extreme measures. That's why I said Effective damage buffs. Your total damage buffs added together may say 263%, but you may actually only be getting 223%. I guess that's something that doesn't effect ATs from the looking I've done these last few days.
It also makes it very difficult to know if you're in the buff range for new offense, which aggrivates even further.
Take, for instance, 15% and 34%. That's an offense conversion that is possible. Old offense is 34% new is 15%, obviously.
34% / .15 = 226.6666(and so on) from there subtract 1 to account for base damage, and that means you much achive (lets just say) 127% to break even. If I'm in tank or support role, I don't get 100% from SSs, more to the sound of 45%, so that's 82% remaining to see buff. Assume they built for their damage stat (Str or Ego) and pull 30% for 52% remaining. A form should get you the rest of the way, that is unless you're using IDF, which wouldn't be beyond the pale for a tank or support.
This is also accounting buffs in their displayed state, and not what they would be after whatever voodoo makes them smaller in actual play.
All in all, I do see some potential with the offense change, it's just needs a tad bit more tweaking. I feel it was let into the wild a little too soon.
No, I'm sure Biff has at some point had a character that used Acrobatics. Since Acrobatics is the only real way to express a character concept as agile and dodgey.... that means he has had such a character.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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There were no changes to powers that deal damage. What are you saying.
Going to echo jack there and say that the offense changes hurt some more than others because, 1) poor implementation 2) poor testing.
I am one of those builds that took a loss from these changes.
What these changes did to my numbers:
Loss of 10% (14% with EM) dodge chance.
Loss of 4.2% avoidance.
Loss of 8.8% crit chance.
Sword Cyclone reports a loss of 2 damage with 1 focus stack, compared to that of prepatch. This honestly did annoy me since I was promised by base damage would rise, and it didn't. Even funnier is that the loss seemed to increase as focus stacks were gained. Not what I expected.
Yeah!
^ whatever that means ^_^
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I don't know. I know animation wise, there really isn't any dodge animations, but getting hit constantly seems very, undodgey.
Though, why not put a cap on dodge, and allow people to build for avoidance so they can actually dodge and not "well, you don't dodge, you just make it so you get clipped by attacks"?
If you are using an offensive passive, a damage toggle and +Offense on your gear (which you were if I remember right) you should be hitting harder as you should be well over the threshhold. Is that loss of two you're reporting the tooltip or from a parser?
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Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
That's not at all what I said. When it became clear that dodge and avoidance were the go-to stats for surviving, I didn't automatically start stacking those stats on all my characters because it was the thing to do.
That doesn't at all mean that I don't have character concepts that use dodge.
Try not reading things I don't type into my posts. When you do that I'll allow you to give yourself a happy clap.
On your Blade, or on a Freeform?
(snipped the other stuff because we knew that was changing)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I die more from lag than anything else in the game and I run The Swordsman and The Flame now.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
"My spreadsheet shows that, statistically, I should have a 98% chance of completing this encounter without incident, which is supposed to be a 5-man Lair. This shows I have defeated this encounter as it was designed by virtue of my intelligence and knowledge of the internal game mechanics."
Is this a bad thing? No, of course not. They are playing a game for enjoyment, and that is how they get said enjoyment.
Does it mean that that few percentage point change is The End of All That Is? No, of course not. The average gamer, regardless of system, isn't pushing to get every last drop of efficiency from a build, and is playing through the default content.
So to the doomcriers, this isn't doom. It means revising the spreadsheets, recalculating the math, and within a week, perhaps two, a new top-end mathematically-perfect build will replace the Dodge/Avoidance ones. I have seen it in many games before, and this one won't be any different.
....
You mean the Inferno and.. god, still can't figure out what the "Swordsman" is.