Actually to me, the connotation of the word fluff DOES mean something of useless value and thereby low cost. An action figure is fluff to me. A costume that ties your character's theme together is less so. And gear or devices that make your character more powerful are even less so. So... disagree with your interpretation of the connotation.
Great, that's why I gave my definition.
While I agree, Legion gear is NOT necessary to play the game's PvE content, that doesn't account for:
the human behavior drive to improve -- Why settle for less when you can be stronger? This isn't a bad thing, but it should be expected as a natural tendency. Why not make your superhero MORE super? I would (as long as I also stay in theme for the character's lore/design). The vast majority of us would.
Then you should be delighted to have new, more-powerful gear to get. (If it is, indeed, more powerful - if not then I don't get the complaints either way.)
power creep -- the act and rate at which existing equipment becomes relatively inferior to the new stuff coming to replace it
Again, your power is creeping, you should be delighted. Get to work! Change that Q for Z and buy some LBs to get that JG!
gambling, or paying somebody else to gamble for you, as the only means of acquisition -- I'd say there's nothing per se wrong with this
Great, we're in agreement.
but even if you're free-trading or buying it off the Auction House, somebody at some point still had to gamble for it
And I thank those players for keeping the game running.
More importantly, replacing the point of recognition with gambling, while profitable for Cryptic, ruins the point of recognition as it was initially designed, and the cost is fewer actively logged in players and increased burn out (because things mean more when you earn them, when there's challenge).
Let's not pretend to know the exact reasons why the game has low population.
An increased imbalance in PvP -- because while Heroic Gear and Legion Gear are barely different for most PvE content, in PvP the difference becomes very noticeable in a contest that's fairly closely matched.
That's fine, just like in every other MMO. Get to work!
Fluff doesn't necessarily mean "of low value." I used the term to mean that it's something that no one actually, really needs. Costumes are fluff. You can play through the entire game without ever having Gravitar's Stylish Haute Couture. But how much does that go for in the auction house?
That's how I see Legion gear. You don't need it, you just want it.
Hm .. i would however never spend money for Fluff that isn't even visible. And for me Fluff is simply something visual that doesn't change your characters performance. However Gear in CO is invisible, so why spent money for it ?
Isn't that the natural way that MMOs work? Gear has always been like computers. Get some, and in a year you're going to want to upgrade. First there was Heroic gear. It was awesome. Then there was Legion gear. It was slightly awesomer. Why did anyone expect it to just end there?
Big difference : Heroic is very easy to get without gambling .. or if you say you can also buy it from the AH, its much less expensive.
For you?...Noted. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because you asked but my opinion currently stands.
I think somebody once said this to me, sums it up quite well:
Conviction in one's opinion is admirable (especially if you have unbiased data to back it up), an immutable opinion is not.
When we feel we are being "attacked" our defensiveness makes us less likely to being open to hearing the counter-point being offered. SeCKSEgai, I'd challenge you to do less finger-pointing with the 2nd person subjective case (I'm talking grammar usage here) and more "I feel that" types of comments. Might not always be a way around it, but less thinking like a competitive PvP'er when you write and more like a diplomat. It works much better for getting your message across.
I'm a bit tired of being polite here while being labeled...consistently.
*shrug* I'm labeled as being rude sometimes, but it's better to be thought as rude than just saying what people want to hear in a forum environment. Can't worry overmuch about what people think of you, just be consistent and open-minded. The hard part is always the open-minded part (which applies to myself as well btw), sometimes people become so entrenched in their positions that they can't see the agreement overlaps or make compromises for the greater good (the USA legislative branch comes to mind as a prime real-world example of people being too entrenched and not open-minded).
Might be a fun off-topic game to try to identify our own label(s) and then you have to discredit the label of the poster above you. Just to show how easily humor, and a bit of creativity, can break such prejudices.
I'll keep this relatively short because this is approaching the point of being a less than purposeful use of time for both of us. You're not reading what I'm typing you're reading into it with your own skew and subsequently I'm less interested in even glancing at what you type where as this wasn't always the case. Maybe it's all one big misunderstanding of intent or maybe you are exactly how I have you pegged right now and maybe I'm really this elitist scumbag you've tried to paint me as repeatedly for a good while now.
Anyway, moving beyond the BS, ...
Elitist scumbag? Where did you get that, I said once that a comment you made came off elitist, as in SOUNDING very elitist. You sure you aren't misinterpreting me? I didn't literally say it SOUNDED elitist word for word, but that was my intended meaning.
Kenpo, I have no argument with you specifically, no beef, no whatever. My concerns have specifically been with the incoming changes. You have come up because of your opposing or differing views, but I'm not hating on you just to hate or anything. I'm a tad offended that you would even think you need to be on the defensive and that I would resort to personal attacks to discredit you.
Then again, I can admit to ME Myself being very elitist and I may very well have responded to something you've said with that mindset. So if I've indeed done that, then you clearly have a reason to be spiteful of me. Just as I may have misinterpreted your words, that does not exclude you from misinterpreting my own.
Before, I used to "spar" with silverspar all the time, but that was merely us disagreeing on perspectives and such. I've watched her in action and know she's a capable player, and I would think she's noticed me too and seen I can perform capably well.
I'm actually surprised that it wasn't her being the person I'd be arguing this on back and forth.
So just to be CLEAR, I have no animosity or hate or negative feelings towards you as a person. I don't think you're some jerk who thinks this or that. If it were another person trying to justify said dodge/avoid nerf, or gear nerf or whatever, it be them my responses would be directed at, just as they have been in every threaf regarding those changes.
As usual, why are you quoting me to say this. What does any of this, including the part I deleted to make the post shorter, have to do with anything I actually said? If the answer is anything other than nothing, start over and try again. Stop (poorly) reading into what I've posted and just read the actual words. It doesn't require Rosetta Stone. This penchant for making **** up and talking about things no one said has gotten dry.
If you really want me to search, I can quote you saying that this game is too easy godmode or something along the lines said to justify the nerfing.
Where do you think these responses come from, I look at what people write and respond. I don't say oh look at so and so, I'm going to make something up out of thin air and claim they said it to make them look foolish, namely because if I had to make it up, I'd be the one looking foolish. Let's be real, if my perceptions were completely farfetched, you probably wouldn't be feeling so defensive.
If I were quoting you, I would use " ". Most of the time I paraphrase responses. As I said earlier, perhaps what I gleaned isn't what you meant. I'm simply writing to what I think people are using to justify these changes and refute them. And again, if my words have made you feel like I'm personally attacking you I apologize. I'm so focused on refuting anything that appears as ones justifications for the changes I may misinterpret your intended meaning. It's not like I think you're at fault for all of this, those of us upset already know where we place our blame, and its not any player.
So again, perhaps you've pegged me all wrong, or maybe I'm just some obnoxious jerk with the sole agenda of trying to make people look bad. Maybe I spam zone relentlessly and change my SG name in an effort to insult whoever's near by.
Or possibly, I haven't pegged you at all, I've been too busy preparing giveaways since despite my best efforts these changes are going forward.
I've been too busy preparing giveaways since despite my best efforts these changes are going forward.
Perhaps we aren't all that different after all. Respect.
P.S. Something that I didn't mention yet is that before this whole internet squabble I asked you in your bug thread (Thrash of the Lich King I think?) what was the 800G gear and mod combo you lost. I was asking because I wanted to help you replace it if you had not already done so.
For you?...Noted. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because you asked but my opinion currently stands. I'm a bit tired of being polite here while being labeled...consistently.
As you can see, we've already had multiple perspectives as to what one would define as "fluff".
In fact, that all posted while I was writing the last post. Again, I'm sorry the elitist comment was taken so personal, you may have misinterpreted my meaning but I have apologized for the confusion.
If I were to peg you by the way, I would say you're doing your best to make the best out of a bad situation.
I would personally prefer to avoid that bad situation altogether.
Hm .. i would however never spend money for Fluff that isn't even visible. And for me Fluff is simply something visual that doesn't change your characters performance. However Gear in CO is invisible, so why spent money for it ?
Big difference : Heroic is very easy to get without gambling .. or if you say you can also buy it from the AH, its much less expensive.
Perhaps we aren't all that different after all. Respect.
P.S. Something that I didn't mention yet is that before this whole internet squabble I asked you in your bug thread (Thrash of the Lich King I think?) what was the 800G gear and mod combo you lost. I was asking because I wanted to help you replace it if you had not already done so.
I didn't even know there was an issue till the tone of your posts escalated. I'm glad its settled.
Basically I had lost a legion util with 2 r7 impacts and 2 r7 int mods. Luckily I had picked up a speed for less than I paid for the util so I just ate the cost of mods.
Do appreciate the offer though. Also, as far as "issues" with other players go, I try to resolve them in game, like a leecher in Grav who thought it would be wise to run Bash with me around. I've even had to put someone and their multiple accounts on ignore just to avoid harassment (I'm sure plenty of people can guess who that is), I have no reason to incite drama intentionally
If anything though, I may coordinate with you later to help distribute some stuff. Just because I'm nearing full burnout doesn't mean all the stuff I burnt out getting should go to waste. Sure I've got plenty of people I can distribute too, but I would think you know much newer players that would enjoy them far more.
People keep saying "Oh after the changes, dodge gear will be worthless".
How does making dodge gear equal to defense/health/whatever gear make it worthless? Doesn't it make it equal in value?
Why would people suddenly be throwing out their Agility pieces as if the stats on them suddenly gave nothing?
I'm pretty sure it's still going to be better for most characters than Defense/Health, just not as overpoweringly better.
It's an opportunity cost thing. Diversifying/layering defenses is still the best way to add the most extra durability at the least cost, and dodge/avoid are cheaper in gear than they are anywhere else compared to what you lose by slotting in Defense/Health over them.
Look at specs that add dodge/avoid vs what else you can get with those spec points. Or a passive, when your starting goal isn't "I want to use Lightning Reflexes" or "I want to use Night Warrior/Quarry/WotW".
Now, if they moved the +Healing% gear to a Defense slot instead of an Offense slot, we'd really have some choices to make.
As a player who has soloed most of lairs in this game over the years (I think only Therakiels is one I didn't solo) there is something wrong with that, a lot of somethings actually in any video game. Those lairs are considered 5 person content for a reason. No single character should ever be able to do content meant for 5 people alone or there is a significant problem (or several) with the game design/systems/mechanics/formulas/etc.. Soloing something meant for 2 people? Not too bad. Meant for 3, should take a very long time and some creativity and some issues are starting to show. Doing something alone meant for 5 should be impossible. That means a single character is performing at 500% of what the expected proficiency is for that encounter.
Of course a real issue few are mentioning is that most players I know who did this (and some who still do) did this before 50/50 dodge avoid was available to everyone with a piece of gear. So I'm left wondering what people are building these days that is so solely reliant on a single piece of gear despite the massive power creep from On Alert. Regarding freeforms we get.
14 powers
2 travel powers
31 specialization points
36 advantage points
6 talents
1 innate talent
1 primary super stat
2 secondary super stats
6 pieces of gear
5 devices per build
6 builds to switch to other devices on the fly if used that way...
And all of that is what people are claiming is irreparably broken because of one item on that list changing? I've been trying to see what builds fall into this category (because despite having so many, none of mine do so I can't see it for myself) but every time I've asked to see them people can't remember the builds that they're so invested in and they never come back later when they can look at it.
theres nothing wrong with soloing lairs. even cosmics if you build for it.
Soloing lairs, by itself, isn't inherently harmful to the playerbase. But it shows that there are very deep-seated problems with the game's mechanics.
It means either that the content is so easy that anyone can walk in off the street and do something originally intended for five people, or it means that the variance in build power is so great that some people are more than 500% more effective than others (I say "more than 500%" because not only are you filling in for four other people, you're filling in for their ability to take simultaneous actions.)
Both of those are bad.
And the "but I'm a superhero, I should be able to solo anything!" argument is kind of missing the point.
You're a superhero in an environment where the challenges are supposed to be, after the leveling content, for groups of superheroes. That's the nature of MMOs.
Ideally, in this hypothetical balanced CO, there'd be an option to do solo-capable versions of the group instances, so if you really don't want to interact with other people, or can't get a full team together, you can still experience the content at a scaled-down level.
But that's even less likely to happen than the game being balanced in the first place.
In this game, gear should be a compliment to a solid character build not a linchpin that causes the whole build to fall apart if any piece(s) of gear changes.
You could swap out the word "Gear" for devices in the first sentence and you would be right on both fronts. Gear or devices being the linchpin that holds some of these builds together. I see them all over the place. IMHO, this should never be the case.
Less emphasis on gear. More on the powers you choose. Tree set-up. Skill in using said powers.
I think COH had a system to where you could ramp up the difficulty of a map/lair and it would add the challenge as if it were x amount of people (I think 5 or more) or solo.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But, that could work in CO, no?
Well if your definition of worth is being able to DPSTANK so you can solo lairs and cosmics, then by that yardstick it will be worthless.
But as you put it, it's only making it equal.
Let's be frank. If Legion agility only granted 18% with 2 r7 gamblers, people would have automatically resorted to defense with 2 impacts. It's potential mitigation is why agility was the most valuable stat by far.
Avoidance grants far better mitigation than defense, and doesn't get affected by defense penetration. However, it's inherently reliant on dodge chance. RnG can make or break, and even at 54% dodge, a few big hits can easily bypass the dodge chance, preventing it from being reliable.
Just because my cursed had dodge/avoid, it didn't suddenly allow her to solo lairs and cosmics. For example, I was able to solo rhinoplasty at 40, not because of her mitigation, but because I brought along a ton of instant heal devices, which would effectively replace having a support healer.
Certain cosmics/legendaries can be solo'd by utilizing range whether it be snipe or a vehicle weapon with 120ft range. Just because it can be done doesn't make it rewarding to do it. And in order to prevent that, you basically have to nullify the advantage any 120ft attack power has.
I see that we are all of two basic schools of thought, Some of us like myself believe being able to solo just about anything should be possible, and others feel that it should not.
My logic behind my belief is that it's the inherent problem of the ff system. In a class based system, strengths and weaknesses are clearly defined.
As far as CoX went, tanks offered significant mitigation, but lacked significant damage output and relied on support healing to keep them standing against heavy resistance. When I ran around covered n Granite, I could take hits and hold threat, but I had to focus my efforts towards holding threat, not damage. The damage dealers did far more damage than I could, but were extremely vulnerable and easily killed. As a blaster I had to be very weary of my damage output, as if I pulled too much threat I could easily be killed, the healer having no way of preventing that.
That was a trinity system, just like in WoW and the usual MMO. What sets CO apart is the FF system allowing players to mix and match powers.
The biggest issue with balance has never so much been dodge/avoid or the changes, but the fact that everyone can sefl-heal. When you can heal on your own, you can now survive long enough to take on what someone who can't heal cannot.
Look at the ATs. A mind can bubble and self-heal, but is no way a "dps tank". It has inherent limitations, primarily by power choices. A Blade has MD and WoTW, but its lack of internal healing means it has no stamina for extended fights. A cursed has resurge and con as a superstat, but it can't take on a small army of tough rated mobs.
If we're utilizing a system that allows people to build what they want, we can't assume that everyone is at the same power level or has the same innate abilities. I myself can no longer build an FF without healing and active defenses, but that's been instilled in me from aall the hours of pvp and necessity in basic alerts.
For plenty of folks these days, having FF access means they'll take some form of healing. But from a thematic point of view, I don't recall most big name heroes healing themselves. The reason it becomes common nature in this game is simply out of necessity.
The only way to bring true balance is to enforce a class based system, something that people clearly would not want. I could only imagine how FF tanks would feel when they have to rely on support healing, or damage became such glass cannons they had to constantly avoid aoe use.
As far as CoX went, tanks offered significant mitigation, but lacked significant damage output and relied on support healing to keep them standing against heavy resistance. When I ran around covered n Granite, I could take hits and hold threat, but I had to focus my efforts towards holding threat, not damage. The damage dealers did far more damage than I could, but were extremely vulnerable and easily killed. As a blaster I had to be very weary of my damage output, as if I pulled too much threat I could easily be killed, the healer having no way of preventing that.
That was a trinity system, just like in WoW and the usual MMO. What sets CO apart is the FF system allowing players to mix and match powers.
CoX also let you do stuff like all-Defender teams. It wasn't always locked into a pure Tank/Healer/DPS setup.
Anyway.
CO should scrap ATs and give Freeform to Silvers (using ATs as templated starting points).
Then give everyone the ability to revive other players as a basic action (kind of like picking up stuff), with revive speed scaling on Presence/Healing power. Have the rez action be interrupt-able on damage taken, like the current rez powers.
Then either completely scrap the current rez powers and make rez action done from Support role non-interruptible (my preference), or make the current rez powers non-interruptible from damage when taken. Knocks/holds/etc could still break the channel, but not every little point of damage.
You sidestep the problem of "needing a healer" in group content, since everyone, at base, has at least some ability to give other players a chance to get back in the fight, even if they can't heal them while they're alive (or heal themselves, for that matter).
Then you can start actually balancing stuff based on an expected minimum baseline of performance, including balancing gear.
And since everyone can rez without wasting a power on it, you don't "need" healers. They just make things faster/more convenient. As it should be.
What exactly was the nerf to Legion gear? I don't remember it being changed. If you mean that it's just "no longer the best" then I think you're misusing the term. Also, I haven't looked at the Justice gear yet, but from what I hear, it's not really that much better than Legion; more of a side-grade than an upgrade. If that's true, isn't the devaluation of Legion gear on live a bit premature?
No. Because it allowed me to get some Legion Gear pieces cheap >_>
Soloing lairs, by itself, isn't inherently harmful to the playerbase. But it shows that there are very deep-seated problems with the game's mechanics.
It means either that the content is so easy that anyone can walk in off the street and do something originally intended for five people, or it means that the variance in build power is so great that some people are more than 500% more effective than others (I say "more than 500%" because not only are you filling in for four other people, you're filling in for their ability to take simultaneous actions.)
Both of those are bad.
And the "but I'm a superhero, I should be able to solo anything!" argument is kind of missing the point.
You're a superhero in an environment where the challenges are supposed to be, after the leveling content, for groups of superheroes. That's the nature of MMOs.
Ideally, in this hypothetical balanced CO, there'd be an option to do solo-capable versions of the group instances, so if you really don't want to interact with other people, or can't get a full team together, you can still experience the content at a scaled-down level.
But that's even less likely to happen than the game being balanced in the first place.
You could swap out the word "Gear" for devices in the first sentence and you would be right on both fronts. Gear or devices being the linchpin that holds some of these builds together. I see them all over the place. IMHO, this should never be the case.
Less emphasis on gear. More on the powers you choose. Tree set-up. Skill in using said powers.
CoX also let you do stuff like all-Defender teams. It wasn't always locked into a pure Tank/Healer/DPS setup.
Anyway.
CO should scrap ATs and give Freeform to Silvers (using ATs as templated starting points).
Then give everyone the ability to revive other players as a basic action (kind of like picking up stuff), with revive speed scaling on Presence/Healing power. Have the rez action be interrupt-able on damage taken, like the current rez powers.
Then either completely scrap the current rez powers and make rez action done from Support role non-interruptible (my preference), or make the current rez powers non-interruptible from damage when taken. Knocks/holds/etc could still break the channel, but not every little point of damage.
You sidestep the problem of "needing a healer" in group content, since everyone, at base, has at least some ability to give other players a chance to get back in the fight, even if they can't heal them while they're alive (or heal themselves, for that matter).
Then you can start actually balancing stuff based on an expected minimum baseline of performance, including balancing gear.
And since everyone can rez without wasting a power on it, you don't "need" healers. They just make things faster/more convenient. As it should be.
Only if power customization is made available to Silvers.
What would be the point of going Gold if practically everything is going to be given to Silvers?
Nothing, which is pretty much the point. Make the game full F2P going forward and grandfather in what people already have. Looking around I don't see the split gold/silver system working wonders for our game.
Nothing, which is pretty much the point. Make the game full F2P going forward and grandfather in what people already have. Looking around I don't see the split gold/silver system working wonders for our game.
From a business standpoint? Maybe it does. Freeform is locked behind a paid-for monthly subscription for a reason. Power customization is locked behind that for the same reasons.
I don't recall F2P meaning giving away as many freebies as possible.
From a business standpoint? Maybe it does. Freeform is locked behind a paid-for monthly subscription for a reason. Power customization is locked behind that for the same reasons.
I don't recall F2P meaning giving away as many freebies as possible.
I'd argue that it was initially locked behind a sub for a reason that doesn't appear to be working out as well as it was originally suggested that it would. STO (among other games but since it's a Cryptic title I'll use that) has a model that seems to be more successful and is significantly less restrictive regarding the games best 'selling' points.
The sarcasm is unnecessary. I don't think I did anything to warrant that.
Don't blame you in the slightest. That's been my major point of contention with the "freeform slot" since it was introduced. The cost of a full game for a slot with partial functionality. I'm not a fan.
I'd argue that it was initially locked behind a sub for a reason that doesn't appear to be working out as well as it was originally suggested that it would. STO (among other games but since it's a Cryptic title I'll use that) has a model that seems to be more successful and is significantly less restrictive regarding the games best 'selling' points.
The sarcasm is unnecessary. I don't think I did anything to warrant that.
Under the old subscription-only model before F2P? It wasn't doing great, that much turned out to be true.
Under F2P, the subscription model seems to still have its place in terms of profit. If sales exclusively from the cash shop turned out to be so good that PWE / Cryptic could be confident enough to abandon repetitive sales from monthly subscription entirely, then I wouldn't have much to say. Up to this day that doesn't seem to be the case however.
For perspective, I'd invite you to take a look at LOTRO's F2P model where free players are more or less forced to buy access to zones and missions to continue levelling to get an idea how exactly bad they got it there.
I didn't intend to come off as sarcastic. Sorry about that.
Under the old subscription-only model before F2P? It wasn't doing great, that much turned out to be true.
Under F2P, the subscription model seems to still have its place in terms of profit. If sales exclusively from the cash shop turned out to be so good that PWE / Cryptic could be confident enough to abandon repetitive sales from monthly subscription entirely, then I wouldn't have much to say. Up to this day that doesn't seem to be the case however.
For perspective, I'd invite you to take a look at LOTRO's F2P model where free players are more or less forced to buy access to zones and missions to continue leveling to get an idea how exactly bad they got it there.
I'll have to check that out (LOTRO). That's like WoW, one of those titles I've hardly ever even glanced at. I guess, to put it into words as well as I can what I'm thinking/feeling/worrying about, if enough people are subscribing to meet this game's financial target (ignoring outside sources of income and the possibility that NW and STO help float CO) either 1) why are they subbing and not playing? 2) If they are playing, when are they playing because I'm not seeing them or 3) If they are playing and I am seeing them...is the target really this low?
I didn't intend to come off as sarcastic. Sorry about that.
The current sub system would be doable if this was a highly popular game. It's not.
Other games have shown that a _seductive_ approach works far better than a tiered approach. Like Cryptic's OTHER game, STO. So much so that with Neverwinter they just abandoned the whole notion of subscriptions altogether.
I think we can all agree that PWE would not have moved to fully f2p if it wasn't a very good business decision.
There are still advantages with gold even if you give silvers all the freeform and power customization -- bank space, free access to stuff that would cost money, and bonus points (though that's just shuffling money around).
Among several issues, one big problem with the current system is that new players are unlikely to take a chance on a subscription right away. As a result, they don't get to see the full range of abilities, they can't even page through different powers to see what's out there in the powers tab.
While I think there are good reasons for ATs (particularly when someone is first starting out), this limited view of the game is a problem. Couple that with lack of power customization (and initial character avatar customization!!), and you make for a system that limits a player's ability to feel invested and connected to their character.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
From a business standpoint? Maybe it does. Freeform is locked behind a paid-for monthly subscription for a reason. Power customization is locked behind that for the same reasons.
I don't recall F2P meaning giving away as many freebies as possible.
When the F2P started they maybe thought that they still make money with subscriptions.
Now they make money with lockboxes and all that is left as goody for subscription is Freeform.
So i think they are not really interested in subscriptions anymore, and if the lockboxes are really that sucessfull then giving freeform to all could only be for the better if it helps getting more players.
About the Lotro model .. the nice thing was that you could play maybe 6-7 months with subbscription and in that time buy all the main zones from your stipend whenever one was on sale.
However after that time when i had most zones i wanted, all my friends stopped playing, and so did i :biggrin:
There are still advantages with gold even if you give silvers all the freeform and power customization -- bank space, free access to stuff that would cost money, and bonus points (though that's just shuffling money around).
Let's not kid ourselves here: Freeform is the highlight of Gold. Everything else is secondary or fluff. It's the most important reason any silver player would want to upgrade to Gold. Removing it from Gold devalues it so much it's not even funny.
The current sub system would be doable if this was a highly popular game. It's not.
Other games have shown that a _seductive_ approach works far better than a tiered approach. Like Cryptic's OTHER game, STO. So much so that with Neverwinter they just abandoned the whole notion of subscriptions altogether.
I think we can all agree that PWE would not have moved to fully f2p if it wasn't a very good business decision.
There are still advantages with gold even if you give silvers all the freeform and power customization -- bank space, free access to stuff that would cost money, and bonus points (though that's just shuffling money around).
Among several issues, one big problem with the current system is that new players are unlikely to take a chance on a subscription right away. As a result, they don't get to see the full range of abilities, they can't even page through different powers to see what's out there in the powers tab.
While I think there are good reasons for ATs (particularly when someone is first starting out), this limited view of the game is a problem. Couple that with lack of power customization (and initial character avatar customization!!), and you make for a system that limits a player's ability to feel invested and connected to their character.
Hell, the reason why I held off on creating my Void (besides not having access to the AT at the time) was because I was waiting for a friend of mine to deliver some New Shadows costume unlocks, since the only character who had access to VB is locked into Gold-status due to being a freeform.
Let's not kid ourselves here: Freeform is the highlight of Gold. Everything else is secondary or fluff. It's the most important reason any silver player would want to upgrade to Gold. Removing it from Gold devalues it so much it's not even funny.
If keeping subscriptions with that much power behind them is so valuable, why do neither STO nor NW use that model?
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
If keeping subscriptions with that much power behind them is so valuable, why do neither STO nor NW use that model?
Because STO and NW are entirely different games based on much more popular licenses, with much bigger player populations that are willing to spend at the Z-store?
Or are you suggesting that in the state that CO is in right now, that we can simply drop Gold and just rely on Z-store sales?
Because STO and NW are entirely different games based on much more popular licenses, with much bigger player populations that are willing to spend at the Z-store?
Or are you suggesting that in the state that CO is in right now, that we can simply drop Gold and just rely on Z-store sales?
Considering the most popular things are character slots and keys for lockboxes...
Considering the most popular things are character slots and keys for lockboxes...
A single month of gold entitles the gold player to buy up to 5 keys alongside everything else that the gold player is entitled to having. Factor those in.
Because STO and NW are entirely different games based on much more popular licenses, with much bigger player populations that are willing to spend at the Z-store?
Or are you suggesting that in the state that CO is in right now, that we can simply drop Gold and just rely on Z-store sales?
Yes. Because this game desperately needs retention, and right now what new players see is a very limited character creation systems, bug aliens, and then accountants with superpowers.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Yes. Because this game desperately needs retention, and right now what new players see is a very limited character creation systems, bug aliens, and then accountants with superpowers.
New players are given access to 10 different ATs to experience a whole array of powersets on an individual basis for free before letting them decide if they want to mix-and-match those powersets as they wish if they were to go Gold or buy a freeform slot. Limited character creation systems? Seriously?
What's more they're allowed to experience the full game content and full character level progression with no additional cost.
Silver players have already gotten it good with how this game's F2P model is set up. There has to be a cut-off line eventually as to how much free stuff they get.
Sadly, since the character creation "streamlining", new players aren't even aware of most of their choices - the creator won't tell you there are any more ATs until you get through at least the tutorial with your first toon, and most of the free costume options are locked away until after you hit lvl 10 the first time.
BTW, STO does have a hybrid model, like CO - but since they gave away most of the worthwhile perks to Silvers, fewer people bother to sub (all you get is a stipend to put toward buying C-Store ships or uniform packs, a little more storage, more EC availability [like that matters - I've never even approached the cap, which is I believe somewhere in the hundreds of millions of EC], and a higher daily Dilithium refining cap). Give everyone Freeform in here, and you'll get a similar result.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Silver players have already gotten it good with how this game's F2P model is set up. There has to be a cut-off line eventually as to how much free stuff they get.
And this is the kind of thinking that makes for a bad F2P model.
The cut-off should be things like costume packs, gear, possibly specific powers, travel powers, etc.
Because once players get a good taste for mix and match powers and REALLY open costume/power customization, you've gotten the hook in.
But I think at this point our positions are staked out. I disagree with your assessment, you disagree with mine.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Sadly, since the character creation "streamlining", new players aren't even aware of most of their choices - the creator won't tell you there are any more ATs until you get through at least the tutorial with your first toon, and most of the free costume options are locked away until after you hit lvl 10 the first time.
BTW, STO does have a hybrid model, like CO - but since they gave away most of the worthwhile perks to Silvers, fewer people bother to sub (all you get is a stipend to put toward buying C-Store ships or uniform packs, a little more storage, more EC availability [like that matters - I've never even approached the cap, which is I believe somewhere in the hundreds of millions of EC], and a higher daily Dilithium refining cap). Give everyone Freeform in here, and you'll get a similar result.
Legitimate freeform, as in one who can customize the colors and emanation points of their powers.
Sadly, since the character creation "streamlining", new players aren't even aware of most of their choices - the creator won't tell you there are any more ATs until you get through at least the tutorial with your first toon, and most of the free costume options are locked away until after you hit lvl 10 the first time.
I was rather shocked that they restricted the costuming like that when I was forced to make a silver account during the whole subscription snafu. I couldn't even use a bunny tail (for Bunni 2.0) until I was level ten, and that was never announced in game in any way.. I just found out randomly when I went to the tailor. It's sad when even the free items are level gated. When I started playing 2 years ago the tailor was what had me hooked in the first place, so to see that restricted even from a brand new account, it's disheartening.
I've mentioned in another post that I think Freeforms should be standard for silver accounts, and that the ATs are guided builds that you can select for learning how powers work or to achieve perks (ala TSW). Gold and LTS should include the costume and vet perks, as well as special travel powers and effects (maybe even auras) as well as the Stipend, and other "ooh shiney" things. One thing that should be added to subscriptions is ability to unlock lockboxes free through a simple daily, playable per character, to open one box in a 24 hour period.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Comments
Great, that's why I gave my definition.
Then you should be delighted to have new, more-powerful gear to get. (If it is, indeed, more powerful - if not then I don't get the complaints either way.)
Again, your power is creeping, you should be delighted. Get to work! Change that Q for Z and buy some LBs to get that JG!
Great, we're in agreement.
And I thank those players for keeping the game running.
Let's not pretend to know the exact reasons why the game has low population.
That's fine, just like in every other MMO. Get to work!
Hm .. i would however never spend money for Fluff that isn't even visible. And for me Fluff is simply something visual that doesn't change your characters performance. However Gear in CO is invisible, so why spent money for it ?
Big difference : Heroic is very easy to get without gambling .. or if you say you can also buy it from the AH, its much less expensive.
I think somebody once said this to me, sums it up quite well:
Conviction in one's opinion is admirable (especially if you have unbiased data to back it up), an immutable opinion is not.
When we feel we are being "attacked" our defensiveness makes us less likely to being open to hearing the counter-point being offered. SeCKSEgai, I'd challenge you to do less finger-pointing with the 2nd person subjective case (I'm talking grammar usage here) and more "I feel that" types of comments. Might not always be a way around it, but less thinking like a competitive PvP'er when you write and more like a diplomat. It works much better for getting your message across.
*shrug* I'm labeled as being rude sometimes, but it's better to be thought as rude than just saying what people want to hear in a forum environment. Can't worry overmuch about what people think of you, just be consistent and open-minded. The hard part is always the open-minded part (which applies to myself as well btw), sometimes people become so entrenched in their positions that they can't see the agreement overlaps or make compromises for the greater good (the USA legislative branch comes to mind as a prime real-world example of people being too entrenched and not open-minded).
Might be a fun off-topic game to try to identify our own label(s) and then you have to discredit the label of the poster above you. Just to show how easily humor, and a bit of creativity, can break such prejudices.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Elitist scumbag? Where did you get that, I said once that a comment you made came off elitist, as in SOUNDING very elitist. You sure you aren't misinterpreting me? I didn't literally say it SOUNDED elitist word for word, but that was my intended meaning.
Kenpo, I have no argument with you specifically, no beef, no whatever. My concerns have specifically been with the incoming changes. You have come up because of your opposing or differing views, but I'm not hating on you just to hate or anything. I'm a tad offended that you would even think you need to be on the defensive and that I would resort to personal attacks to discredit you.
Then again, I can admit to ME Myself being very elitist and I may very well have responded to something you've said with that mindset. So if I've indeed done that, then you clearly have a reason to be spiteful of me. Just as I may have misinterpreted your words, that does not exclude you from misinterpreting my own.
Before, I used to "spar" with silverspar all the time, but that was merely us disagreeing on perspectives and such. I've watched her in action and know she's a capable player, and I would think she's noticed me too and seen I can perform capably well.
I'm actually surprised that it wasn't her being the person I'd be arguing this on back and forth.
So just to be CLEAR, I have no animosity or hate or negative feelings towards you as a person. I don't think you're some jerk who thinks this or that. If it were another person trying to justify said dodge/avoid nerf, or gear nerf or whatever, it be them my responses would be directed at, just as they have been in every threaf regarding those changes.
I respond to what people say.
If you really want me to search, I can quote you saying that this game is too easy godmode or something along the lines said to justify the nerfing.
Where do you think these responses come from, I look at what people write and respond. I don't say oh look at so and so, I'm going to make something up out of thin air and claim they said it to make them look foolish, namely because if I had to make it up, I'd be the one looking foolish. Let's be real, if my perceptions were completely farfetched, you probably wouldn't be feeling so defensive.
If I were quoting you, I would use " ". Most of the time I paraphrase responses. As I said earlier, perhaps what I gleaned isn't what you meant. I'm simply writing to what I think people are using to justify these changes and refute them. And again, if my words have made you feel like I'm personally attacking you I apologize. I'm so focused on refuting anything that appears as ones justifications for the changes I may misinterpret your intended meaning. It's not like I think you're at fault for all of this, those of us upset already know where we place our blame, and its not any player.
So again, perhaps you've pegged me all wrong, or maybe I'm just some obnoxious jerk with the sole agenda of trying to make people look bad. Maybe I spam zone relentlessly and change my SG name in an effort to insult whoever's near by.
Or possibly, I haven't pegged you at all, I've been too busy preparing giveaways since despite my best efforts these changes are going forward.
Perhaps we aren't all that different after all. Respect.
P.S. Something that I didn't mention yet is that before this whole internet squabble I asked you in your bug thread (Thrash of the Lich King I think?) what was the 800G gear and mod combo you lost. I was asking because I wanted to help you replace it if you had not already done so.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
As you can see, we've already had multiple perspectives as to what one would define as "fluff".
In fact, that all posted while I was writing the last post. Again, I'm sorry the elitist comment was taken so personal, you may have misinterpreted my meaning but I have apologized for the confusion.
If I were to peg you by the way, I would say you're doing your best to make the best out of a bad situation.
I would personally prefer to avoid that bad situation altogether.
I think us veterans have a pretty solid reasoning as we are players just like the ones who leave or choose not to stay.
I didn't even know there was an issue till the tone of your posts escalated. I'm glad its settled.
Basically I had lost a legion util with 2 r7 impacts and 2 r7 int mods. Luckily I had picked up a speed for less than I paid for the util so I just ate the cost of mods.
Do appreciate the offer though. Also, as far as "issues" with other players go, I try to resolve them in game, like a leecher in Grav who thought it would be wise to run Bash with me around. I've even had to put someone and their multiple accounts on ignore just to avoid harassment (I'm sure plenty of people can guess who that is), I have no reason to incite drama intentionally
If anything though, I may coordinate with you later to help distribute some stuff. Just because I'm nearing full burnout doesn't mean all the stuff I burnt out getting should go to waste. Sure I've got plenty of people I can distribute too, but I would think you know much newer players that would enjoy them far more.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
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Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Reasoning? Sure. Exact reasons? My rebuttal is what you quoted.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
People keep saying "Oh after the changes, dodge gear will be worthless".
How does making dodge gear equal to defense/health/whatever gear make it worthless? Doesn't it make it equal in value?
Why would people suddenly be throwing out their Agility pieces as if the stats on them suddenly gave nothing?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Well if your definition of worth is being able to DPSTANK so you can solo lairs and cosmics, then by that yardstick it will be worthless.
But as you put it, it's only making it equal.
I'm pretty sure it's still going to be better for most characters than Defense/Health, just not as overpoweringly better.
It's an opportunity cost thing. Diversifying/layering defenses is still the best way to add the most extra durability at the least cost, and dodge/avoid are cheaper in gear than they are anywhere else compared to what you lose by slotting in Defense/Health over them.
Look at specs that add dodge/avoid vs what else you can get with those spec points. Or a passive, when your starting goal isn't "I want to use Lightning Reflexes" or "I want to use Night Warrior/Quarry/WotW".
Now, if they moved the +Healing% gear to a Defense slot instead of an Offense slot, we'd really have some choices to make.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
As a player who has soloed most of lairs in this game over the years (I think only Therakiels is one I didn't solo) there is something wrong with that, a lot of somethings actually in any video game. Those lairs are considered 5 person content for a reason. No single character should ever be able to do content meant for 5 people alone or there is a significant problem (or several) with the game design/systems/mechanics/formulas/etc.. Soloing something meant for 2 people? Not too bad. Meant for 3, should take a very long time and some creativity and some issues are starting to show. Doing something alone meant for 5 should be impossible. That means a single character is performing at 500% of what the expected proficiency is for that encounter.
Of course a real issue few are mentioning is that most players I know who did this (and some who still do) did this before 50/50 dodge avoid was available to everyone with a piece of gear. So I'm left wondering what people are building these days that is so solely reliant on a single piece of gear despite the massive power creep from On Alert. Regarding freeforms we get.
14 powers
2 travel powers
31 specialization points
36 advantage points
6 talents
1 innate talent
1 primary super stat
2 secondary super stats
6 pieces of gear
5 devices per build
6 builds to switch to other devices on the fly if used that way...
And all of that is what people are claiming is irreparably broken because of one item on that list changing? I've been trying to see what builds fall into this category (because despite having so many, none of mine do so I can't see it for myself) but every time I've asked to see them people can't remember the builds that they're so invested in and they never come back later when they can look at it.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Soloing lairs, by itself, isn't inherently harmful to the playerbase. But it shows that there are very deep-seated problems with the game's mechanics.
It means either that the content is so easy that anyone can walk in off the street and do something originally intended for five people, or it means that the variance in build power is so great that some people are more than 500% more effective than others (I say "more than 500%" because not only are you filling in for four other people, you're filling in for their ability to take simultaneous actions.)
Both of those are bad.
And the "but I'm a superhero, I should be able to solo anything!" argument is kind of missing the point.
You're a superhero in an environment where the challenges are supposed to be, after the leveling content, for groups of superheroes. That's the nature of MMOs.
Ideally, in this hypothetical balanced CO, there'd be an option to do solo-capable versions of the group instances, so if you really don't want to interact with other people, or can't get a full team together, you can still experience the content at a scaled-down level.
But that's even less likely to happen than the game being balanced in the first place.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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You could swap out the word "Gear" for devices in the first sentence and you would be right on both fronts. Gear or devices being the linchpin that holds some of these builds together. I see them all over the place. IMHO, this should never be the case.
Less emphasis on gear. More on the powers you choose. Tree set-up. Skill in using said powers.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But, that could work in CO, no?
Just a thought.
Let's be frank. If Legion agility only granted 18% with 2 r7 gamblers, people would have automatically resorted to defense with 2 impacts. It's potential mitigation is why agility was the most valuable stat by far.
Avoidance grants far better mitigation than defense, and doesn't get affected by defense penetration. However, it's inherently reliant on dodge chance. RnG can make or break, and even at 54% dodge, a few big hits can easily bypass the dodge chance, preventing it from being reliable.
Just because my cursed had dodge/avoid, it didn't suddenly allow her to solo lairs and cosmics. For example, I was able to solo rhinoplasty at 40, not because of her mitigation, but because I brought along a ton of instant heal devices, which would effectively replace having a support healer.
Certain cosmics/legendaries can be solo'd by utilizing range whether it be snipe or a vehicle weapon with 120ft range. Just because it can be done doesn't make it rewarding to do it. And in order to prevent that, you basically have to nullify the advantage any 120ft attack power has.
I see that we are all of two basic schools of thought, Some of us like myself believe being able to solo just about anything should be possible, and others feel that it should not.
My logic behind my belief is that it's the inherent problem of the ff system. In a class based system, strengths and weaknesses are clearly defined.
As far as CoX went, tanks offered significant mitigation, but lacked significant damage output and relied on support healing to keep them standing against heavy resistance. When I ran around covered n Granite, I could take hits and hold threat, but I had to focus my efforts towards holding threat, not damage. The damage dealers did far more damage than I could, but were extremely vulnerable and easily killed. As a blaster I had to be very weary of my damage output, as if I pulled too much threat I could easily be killed, the healer having no way of preventing that.
That was a trinity system, just like in WoW and the usual MMO. What sets CO apart is the FF system allowing players to mix and match powers.
The biggest issue with balance has never so much been dodge/avoid or the changes, but the fact that everyone can sefl-heal. When you can heal on your own, you can now survive long enough to take on what someone who can't heal cannot.
Look at the ATs. A mind can bubble and self-heal, but is no way a "dps tank". It has inherent limitations, primarily by power choices. A Blade has MD and WoTW, but its lack of internal healing means it has no stamina for extended fights. A cursed has resurge and con as a superstat, but it can't take on a small army of tough rated mobs.
If we're utilizing a system that allows people to build what they want, we can't assume that everyone is at the same power level or has the same innate abilities. I myself can no longer build an FF without healing and active defenses, but that's been instilled in me from aall the hours of pvp and necessity in basic alerts.
For plenty of folks these days, having FF access means they'll take some form of healing. But from a thematic point of view, I don't recall most big name heroes healing themselves. The reason it becomes common nature in this game is simply out of necessity.
The only way to bring true balance is to enforce a class based system, something that people clearly would not want. I could only imagine how FF tanks would feel when they have to rely on support healing, or damage became such glass cannons they had to constantly avoid aoe use.
CoX also let you do stuff like all-Defender teams. It wasn't always locked into a pure Tank/Healer/DPS setup.
Anyway.
CO should scrap ATs and give Freeform to Silvers (using ATs as templated starting points).
Then give everyone the ability to revive other players as a basic action (kind of like picking up stuff), with revive speed scaling on Presence/Healing power. Have the rez action be interrupt-able on damage taken, like the current rez powers.
Then either completely scrap the current rez powers and make rez action done from Support role non-interruptible (my preference), or make the current rez powers non-interruptible from damage when taken. Knocks/holds/etc could still break the channel, but not every little point of damage.
You sidestep the problem of "needing a healer" in group content, since everyone, at base, has at least some ability to give other players a chance to get back in the fight, even if they can't heal them while they're alive (or heal themselves, for that matter).
Then you can start actually balancing stuff based on an expected minimum baseline of performance, including balancing gear.
And since everyone can rez without wasting a power on it, you don't "need" healers. They just make things faster/more convenient. As it should be.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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No. Because it allowed me to get some Legion Gear pieces cheap >_>
Precisely.
Full agreement.
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Only if power customization is made available to Silvers.
Sage suggested that in the what you just quoted.
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Nothing, which is pretty much the point. Make the game full F2P going forward and grandfather in what people already have. Looking around I don't see the split gold/silver system working wonders for our game.
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I didn't saw anything concerning the powers' color hue and emanation points.
All of that is included in real Freeform and not the "sort of" Freeform they sell as an overpriced slot.
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From a business standpoint? Maybe it does. Freeform is locked behind a paid-for monthly subscription for a reason. Power customization is locked behind that for the same reasons.
I don't recall F2P meaning giving away as many freebies as possible.
I'd argue that it was initially locked behind a sub for a reason that doesn't appear to be working out as well as it was originally suggested that it would. STO (among other games but since it's a Cryptic title I'll use that) has a model that seems to be more successful and is significantly less restrictive regarding the games best 'selling' points.
The sarcasm is unnecessary. I don't think I did anything to warrant that.
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And then people ask me why I stick to ATs...
Although nobody really did that.
Don't blame you in the slightest. That's been my major point of contention with the "freeform slot" since it was introduced. The cost of a full game for a slot with partial functionality. I'm not a fan.
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Under the old subscription-only model before F2P? It wasn't doing great, that much turned out to be true.
Under F2P, the subscription model seems to still have its place in terms of profit. If sales exclusively from the cash shop turned out to be so good that PWE / Cryptic could be confident enough to abandon repetitive sales from monthly subscription entirely, then I wouldn't have much to say. Up to this day that doesn't seem to be the case however.
For perspective, I'd invite you to take a look at LOTRO's F2P model where free players are more or less forced to buy access to zones and missions to continue levelling to get an idea how exactly bad they got it there.
I didn't intend to come off as sarcastic. Sorry about that.
I'll have to check that out (LOTRO). That's like WoW, one of those titles I've hardly ever even glanced at. I guess, to put it into words as well as I can what I'm thinking/feeling/worrying about, if enough people are subscribing to meet this game's financial target (ignoring outside sources of income and the possibility that NW and STO help float CO) either 1) why are they subbing and not playing? 2) If they are playing, when are they playing because I'm not seeing them or 3) If they are playing and I am seeing them...is the target really this low?
No worries, still love ya' to pieces.
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Other games have shown that a _seductive_ approach works far better than a tiered approach. Like Cryptic's OTHER game, STO. So much so that with Neverwinter they just abandoned the whole notion of subscriptions altogether.
I think we can all agree that PWE would not have moved to fully f2p if it wasn't a very good business decision.
There are still advantages with gold even if you give silvers all the freeform and power customization -- bank space, free access to stuff that would cost money, and bonus points (though that's just shuffling money around).
Among several issues, one big problem with the current system is that new players are unlikely to take a chance on a subscription right away. As a result, they don't get to see the full range of abilities, they can't even page through different powers to see what's out there in the powers tab.
While I think there are good reasons for ATs (particularly when someone is first starting out), this limited view of the game is a problem. Couple that with lack of power customization (and initial character avatar customization!!), and you make for a system that limits a player's ability to feel invested and connected to their character.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
When the F2P started they maybe thought that they still make money with subscriptions.
Now they make money with lockboxes and all that is left as goody for subscription is Freeform.
So i think they are not really interested in subscriptions anymore, and if the lockboxes are really that sucessfull then giving freeform to all could only be for the better if it helps getting more players.
About the Lotro model .. the nice thing was that you could play maybe 6-7 months with subbscription and in that time buy all the main zones from your stipend whenever one was on sale.
However after that time when i had most zones i wanted, all my friends stopped playing, and so did i :biggrin:
Let's not kid ourselves here: Freeform is the highlight of Gold. Everything else is secondary or fluff. It's the most important reason any silver player would want to upgrade to Gold. Removing it from Gold devalues it so much it's not even funny.
Hell, the reason why I held off on creating my Void (besides not having access to the AT at the time) was because I was waiting for a friend of mine to deliver some New Shadows costume unlocks, since the only character who had access to VB is locked into Gold-status due to being a freeform.
If keeping subscriptions with that much power behind them is so valuable, why do neither STO nor NW use that model?
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Because STO and NW are entirely different games based on much more popular licenses, with much bigger player populations that are willing to spend at the Z-store?
Or are you suggesting that in the state that CO is in right now, that we can simply drop Gold and just rely on Z-store sales?
Considering the most popular things are character slots and keys for lockboxes...
A single month of gold entitles the gold player to buy up to 5 keys alongside everything else that the gold player is entitled to having. Factor those in.
Yes. Because this game desperately needs retention, and right now what new players see is a very limited character creation systems, bug aliens, and then accountants with superpowers.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
New players are given access to 10 different ATs to experience a whole array of powersets on an individual basis for free before letting them decide if they want to mix-and-match those powersets as they wish if they were to go Gold or buy a freeform slot. Limited character creation systems? Seriously?
What's more they're allowed to experience the full game content and full character level progression with no additional cost.
Silver players have already gotten it good with how this game's F2P model is set up. There has to be a cut-off line eventually as to how much free stuff they get.
BTW, STO does have a hybrid model, like CO - but since they gave away most of the worthwhile perks to Silvers, fewer people bother to sub (all you get is a stipend to put toward buying C-Store ships or uniform packs, a little more storage, more EC availability [like that matters - I've never even approached the cap, which is I believe somewhere in the hundreds of millions of EC], and a higher daily Dilithium refining cap). Give everyone Freeform in here, and you'll get a similar result.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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And this is the kind of thinking that makes for a bad F2P model.
The cut-off should be things like costume packs, gear, possibly specific powers, travel powers, etc.
Because once players get a good taste for mix and match powers and REALLY open costume/power customization, you've gotten the hook in.
But I think at this point our positions are staked out. I disagree with your assessment, you disagree with mine.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Legitimate freeform, as in one who can customize the colors and emanation points of their powers.
I was rather shocked that they restricted the costuming like that when I was forced to make a silver account during the whole subscription snafu. I couldn't even use a bunny tail (for Bunni 2.0) until I was level ten, and that was never announced in game in any way.. I just found out randomly when I went to the tailor. It's sad when even the free items are level gated. When I started playing 2 years ago the tailor was what had me hooked in the first place, so to see that restricted even from a brand new account, it's disheartening.
I've mentioned in another post that I think Freeforms should be standard for silver accounts, and that the ATs are guided builds that you can select for learning how powers work or to achieve perks (ala TSW). Gold and LTS should include the costume and vet perks, as well as special travel powers and effects (maybe even auras) as well as the Stipend, and other "ooh shiney" things. One thing that should be added to subscriptions is ability to unlock lockboxes free through a simple daily, playable per character, to open one box in a 24 hour period.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.