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How to balance pvp
blkscourge1
Posts: 10 Arc User
- Adjust Juggernaut
- Don't allow 2 of the same mod on a single piece of gear (stacking leads to problems)
- Increase duration of -travel power powers (its way too easy to escape in this game)
- Shorten buff on +stealth powers (see above)
- Add more Trauma debuffs to different powers for variety (we need ppl to use more then just Ebon ruin and Haymaker)
- Debuff Strafing Run (1st hit 100% chance to hit a single target; 2nd hit 75%; 3rd 50%; 4th 25%) This power is just too good as it is. Its a must have for top lvl pvp. That's bad.
- Increase duration of Conviction (see above)
Since offense, dodge, and devices are taking a hit on test, a few of these changes may bring ppl back to BASH and end 20 minute duels.
Post edited by blkscourge1 on
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There. There is the fix we need.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
I have 2 pve toons without Conviction and they are nearly unkillable. One is tanky the other pure dps.
Trust me you'll be fine.
THIS, please fix this cryptic!
Although this is a bit overused I do not think this is the main problem. Juggernaut is only good if you put every single point into CON and then it still only gets you to 80% or 90% defence with vind-ward. No, it's the spec glitch which is messing this one up. People can get to 140% resistance from defence easily.
A much, much better fix for this would be to add diminishing returns to CON. There never have been any so it allows people to keep on stacking to get 16k hp in support role while using strength to get 90% resistance. Everything other than CON has diminishing returns, it doesn't make much sense.
I don't stack cores plus I use 3 int and 3 con meaning that if you did this it wouldn't affect me the slightest bit.
Teleport is the only one that is really affective for this as you can't be snared while using it. All the other travel powers, just use something like chill as I have on my passive also mini drive and this new earth passive when it comes out. This will make people's TP's pointless, problem is that people use the spec glitch so while the TP is off they can't be snared. Also learn to rotate holds. >.>
EM could do with being actually fixed so it is a 50% chance instead of a 100% chance. Other than that just get stealth sight and the only stealth against you will be smoke grenade and even that ends up not being that reliable. Not having as much stealth will force people to play tanks, this is not good because everyone is already a tank anyway. LoL
One fix they could do is simply to add in stealth secondaries to the acclaim vender, would fix the stealth issue that new players have.
Who uses haymaker for trauma? Infact, who uses haymaker and PvP's? Infact who doesn't use ER, probably about 5-10% of people don't. They added trauma to that new telepathy passive but the passive isn't really that great so no one uses that. I prefer to kill people before they have a chance to use a heal anyway.
Wait, what? So you are asking for a set in stone crit chance on strafing run? In other words I wouldn't need to invest a single bit into crit and could go ego primary, pure ego with ice sheath to hit even more than I do now? Yeah, that would fix it!
But really, not everyone uses strafing run anymore. It's sort of dying out. The problem isn't that strafing run hits too high, it is that people are too defensive and have too much healing to use anything other than it. It isn't really a must have at all, must haves for 1v1 pvp are more like ER, MD, conviction, ascension, ego surge.
Well, a 2 second recharge on conviction really is rather stupid isn't it. Especially when it heals for 6k on crits. Unfortunately for me, my conviction only heals for 500's. :< And 250's if I have trauma on me.
I think I'd rather bring people into UTC and the others although to do that we need them to be fixed. Going into them just to be kicked out and leave one side with 6 and the other with 2 is stupid.
Basically fix the spec glitch which lots of PvP n000bs are using at the moment and it will balance things out between the people who PvP lots and the people who don't.
A lot of your changes seem to skip over the fact PvP is like world of tanks these days other than the odd few. Also, duelling isn't real PvPing.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
You need Conviction to survive? Besides, the heal itself is okay, all the effortless bonuses on top of it turning it into a monster are the problem.
Well, it would help with con stacking and stacking cores (crit, dodge, recharge)
I think you misread my statement. Right now if you place SR properly you can hit the same target with all 4 shots 100% of the time. I'm saying have 1 shot a guarantee HIT, and have the 3 others miss 25% on 2nd hit, 50% on 3rd, and 75%. on 4th. So you can potentially hit with all strikes on same target, it just harder to hit with all at the same time and score 16k+ crits.
It wouldn't help all too much, although with recharge it may help a bit you could still use a perception core and one impact core, one avoidance core and one gamblers then one gamblers and one uranium core. I don't even use gamblers on my gloves though, I use impact as I don't have the usual vindicator / guardian set up which basically everyone uses.
Oh so I get it, you say that strafing run should always hit on the first shot but the others have a chance not to go off?
The problem is this isn't how SR is coded. Basically all 4 of those hits seem to count as one shot crit wise also all 4 of them go off at basically the same time so any buffs you have to buff it will be on all 4 of them. The problem is that it is too easy for a tank who doesn't die to use it and kill squishys with it still. I put everything into increasing it's damage and I have no defense left over for myself other than stealth.
My strafing run hits for 8k currently on live. 8000 x 4 = 32,000 damage on dummies. People will usually half this with basic resistances so that will put it at 16,000 which is sort of funny because some people have more health than this and this is before dodge and debuffs / buffs.
On the other side of things I currently have 7.5k hp, a AOPM heal tank can hit up to 8k with ebon ruin, I take about 2k damage off that, maybe less. I survive usually because of the dodge from my gear although that wont be the case anymore ofcourse. My conviction heals me for 500 on crit, ER hits for about 250 dps on it's DOT, with mental storm hitting for 300 DPS that is 550 DPS. In the time my conviction takes to come up these two DOT's have hit about 600 damage on me after healing myself with conviction.
I just feel some of the changes you suggested here are fairly naive and don't exactly fix the lack of diversity which puts so many people off PvP.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
There is no reason SR should do so much burst with one click. It forces every build to take it just to kill someone. Pvp is all about setting up for a crit SR when your target is out of cds. No other skill has that dmg potential. Ridiculous healing, resists and escape powers, trivialize all other dmg.
So nerf defensives as I've stated above, and then nerf SR. That will cultivate diversity.
Hiding in stealth and tping around the map all day so you can get off one good SR isnt my idea of good pvp.
Who says I teleport? 0.o I use super jump to jump around people, why would I teleport around the map unless I had someone chasing me, and if that was the case it would be best to just sleep him and then get away leaving him held.
32,000 damage isn't much.
I had 25,000 with haymaker with my melee build but it didn't work for various reasons. You could get much more than 32,000 with force cascade and if you use the good old PA combo you can get 40k easily. With my 32,000 SR you can also get a 6-7k 2GM, in other words up to 14k a second in maintained DPS without recharge. It isn't just SR, if it was nerfed I would be forced to find another burst power to hit a ton of damage.
So is your idea of PvP a bunch of tanks running around in a circle not getting eachother under 60% health and having a stalemate BASH with 8 people in there.
FYI, 90% of builds don't use SR. Probably about 50-60%. Although 95% would use ego surge, about 90% would use MD and about 99% of stats are made up off the top of my head.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Calm down man. :biggrin:
They don't even need to bother doing anything else until they can fix this. Nothing else matters as much as this.
Didn't realize this was the "nerf IMP" thread :biggrin:
When we gonna start a "make little kids shorter? thread
Offense is taking a hit? Last I heard, buff.
-If the dodge nerf goes through, we should probably see how that goes before we nerf any other defenses. Though personally, I always thought Juggernaut should scale on Strength, not Con.
-2 of the same mod aint so great.
-Nailed to the ground is fine, especially since it's not the only way to stop someone from escaping. Trust me, you make it too hard to escape and you basically just banned squishy builds from pvp even more than they already are.
-the 3 seconds from EM aren't so bad, and they're extending the cooldown already, so lets see how that goes before we shorten the duration of the stealth buff...3 seconds is already pretty short.
-more trauma availability would be neat...or even better, alternative options for dealing with healers; a hybrid role heal nerf, like IMP keeps talking about, would actually have the same effect, without overnerfing non-hybrid heals
-strafing run shouldn't be nerfed. There should actually be more powers like it; high damage click-aimed powers. One thing you could do to make it less extreme is to increase the activation time slightly, to give people a little bit longer to get out of the way.
-increase duration of conviction? Not sure what increasing the duration on the +15% hit points buff would do, it's pretty long already.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You really can't "balance" pvp when certain power choices are staple, it goes beyond trauma.
With all the spec tree options available, you can't tone down those without it affecting everyone else, not everyone builds for performance, and not everyone even gets to pick their stats/trees.
Apply [Become Balanced Level 40] to everyone when they enter PvP matches, this Become allows you to select a power set and then you are given a build.
All the stats for everyone are the same.
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I think DCUO is the game for you!
<.<
I wanna play as defender!
Edit: infact foxbat, yes I would play as foxbat!
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
While I think that's probably a step in the right direction..
I've argued that PvP needs it's own power set. Something luchador themed maybe?
Just fill it with Nerfed versions of some the PvE powers;
Some ranged attacks-
A ranged AOE
- with a 3 pt bleed adv
-and a 3pt stun adv
A Ranged Single Target
- w/ a 3pt root adv
-and a 3pt KB adv
A PBAOE
- more adv [all 3pts so you have to specialize]
A 50 ft cone
- more adv [all 3pts so you have to specialize]
And.. lets see Melee
A melee Single Target
- more adv [all 3pts so you have to specialize]
A melee PBAOE [180 area]
- more adv [all 3pts so you have to specialize ] etc.. to all
A melee Knock up
A melee knock back
And Some Utility powers--
A lunge
A block
A Self heal
A Passive offense
and
A Passive defense
Finally a passive or two
Two Offensive passives
One for range
One for Melee
Two Defensive passives
-One with lots of Absorb
-One with lots of dodge
Balance those things each week as people find leet combos and exploits.
Leave the PvE powers alone..
Have two fighting ... err three figthing leauges...
Lucha [with the PvP powers]
Icon [for ATs]
and
No Holds Barred [for PvE freeforming]
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
< Finding reason to agree with Foxi. What did you do.
My comment about tp wasnt directed to you. Stop getting defensive.
Ok so that's not relevant if you cant make it work in pvp.
You're talking about combos and a power that takes forever to charge. I don't see how that relates to SR with is a click power. One click and dead. Sorry man SR is in a class by itself. It needs to be nerfed. I haven't seen a power so op in a game in recent times.
I cant see how you can say that when I was clearly listing defenses that need to be nerfed to so ppl arent so tanky. Dodge is getting hit, thats a step in the right direction. Now they need to nerf resists, conviction spam, and travel power escaping. the combo of all of those is op.
*shrugs*
Just trying to help without letting PvP cause PvE nerfs....
Mind you I am aware that this will -never- happen but it's a fun thought experiment
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Maybe more needs to happen. Any suggestions?
Look, I played this game since beta, left 2 years ago and just came back a few weeks ago. Granted I'm out of practice, but ffs this game is at its worst for pvp balance since Ive played. Melee have become obsolete and all the competitive builds revolve around aopm tank mages and stealth builds with SR as their main burst.
I dont think ppl should be forced to use SR to win.
kthxbye
Wait no..
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Buuuuhuuu. Don't make me remember, I grew depressed as I deconstructed my poor R.H.I.N.O.
O.o is he back?!?!?!
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You may not use a combo with your strafing run but I do. I use overseer spec so that I can increase the damage the person takes, no idea if it works like resistance but all I know is that it works really well for my build. So I use my sleep, my root, ego surge -> SR -> rimefire -> nanobot -> repeat. Is that not a combo? 0.o
FYI there are many people who are so tanky I can't get past 25% health before they heal up.
Sorry if I'm getting defensive, but SR isn't no where near the must have status in comparison to ebon ruin. It helps boost damage but if you build right you can kill people easily without it, also if you are like aphrodite then you just use two gun mojo no matter what others are using.
Or if you are aret_f you use infernal blast with ER which will still kill people.
I'm just saying, there are other ways a tank can kill people, it's a different story for a dps because you are forced to need stealth to survive because of the hold resistances.
Too be honest though I think I'll always be stubborn and say squishy stealth wars are much more fun than world of tanks.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Technically you haven't played since beta, you started at beta and left two years ago.
On-Alert is why things are the way they are. My FF Pvp setup doesn't run AoPM, but assuming I don't quite with the planned changes, aopm is very likely to be her future.
SR is a popular choice, ultimately because its the highest burst you can achieve in one power atm. However, you still have to land it and it can be awkward, especially in fast moving combat. You can still be effective without it, sometimes even more so. Not everyone uses it, namely because of the aiming and inconsistency landing all the hits on a moving target.
Melee was made obsolete a long time ago, at the release of On-Alert more or less. While there is the occasional hold out, melee is a natural disadvantage, especially with fall damage from knocks not being nearly as devastating.
Simply put - with the current state you'd need to look at all the powersets to really start to see some balance. FF pvp is not exactly in a "fun" place, and has sooo far to go before it can get there. Since they are unwilling to invest the dev time to balance the powersets properly for pve - don't expect special treatment for us pvp folk.
Okay...right, being the tk lance + invul guy you dueled yesterday (you know that one that caused your screen to "freeze" while teleporting ;;-), I can assure you that many, many more alternatives exist (or maybe will exist after the dodge nerf). There will always be the top combos but still, you can play whatever you like really. After the dodge nerf, I'm going for an electric form build or something. I will die to the most dedicated fotmers, but I'll be having fun.
You should remember the beta days when melee was OP, no? Dragon's Wrath and Dragon's uppercut was the fotm 2 months ago. But yes, I think something like a -speed to all ranged attacks should be implemented.
omg about 4 months ago almost everyone would be UR or 2GM, I don't actually know many people who were ER SR back then. Then green made nonexistance to screw everyone over, then spetzi came back and added some skills to the FOTM. Then... Then....
Next FoTM will be ice cage pure dps build! 200 dps while ice caging is OP!
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Actually ER/SR is at least a year old. I remember DM and Spetz using it against aphro.
Before that, it was a shadow form/imbue build that would beat most aopm builds. After the dodge nerf, I think offensive builds will begin running around 'till someone uses LR, then pps will go back to Aopm etc...
Btw when is it coming? Next month maybe?
Hey, ***** happens. Especially when you use wireless keyboard/mouse. I'm mean damn, some dude lagged out and died in a duel with me and I didnt throw it in his face.:rolleyes:
I dueled you afterward with no problems and it ended up in a 15min draw. But seriously, that's the issue. 15-20 min duels=boring. I fought Imp's yesterday too for the 1st time and gonna say he's got one of the nastier builds. To even contend with his build I'd probably need to respec.:cool: But I admit I rather fight folks like Imp which will end fast, rather then another fotm tank-mage.
Yeah, I was around back then on my toon Stitch. I was one of those DW spammers. And that's a good example. When DW was king, so was PA, KB builds, Sigils, and Defile spam. That period had a lot more diversity and balance IMO.
Look, I'm not calling out ppl on their builds. FFS I use all the powers I listed with the exception of SR (only b/c I cant get it to fire off properly, otherwise I would). I just want to see variety so more ppl will get interested in qing for pvp.
Maybe I'm just being nostalgic, maybe its too late for this game, since we know Cryptic's history with passe' games in their binder.
Honestly, I have more fun pvping with my pve concept build rather then my fotm clone.
SR was only added to the game 1 year ago, and mcluving and darkened might started dominating with SR ER build pretty much right away.
Yes, I know. I wasn't talking about then though, I was talking about 4 months ago. > . <''
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
There are just so many factors to consider you can't just scapegoat a few powers. They're trying to do that with dodge/avoid now.
While hitting dodge/avoid will make people easier to kill as far as pvp goes, it still doesn't resolve a multitude of other pending issues.
First we're all like "yo wtf, why's there no pvp??"
Then we do pvp, it takes a long time, and we're like "yo wtf, why's there so much pvp??"
We need some baby bear up in this piece.
Personally, I like long duels and long hero games matches... then again, I actually like pvp, don't know about the rest of you that constantly talk about wanting it to end as fast as possible
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nerfing defenses is a good way to go. But I'd love to see how awkward it will be in PvP when both pps in a duel use the new block for 2 secs, every 8 secs. Sooooo interesting!
If you are having fun pvping with a PvP toon, do it. Or you could make a non fotm PvP build. To each their own.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
Remove bash from the game.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Arghhh ....t o o .... M u c h ... E_G_O
Stop accidentally not spamming my video thread n00b! You're spam is almost like your use to force geyser.
I suppose the title for the video could have been a number of things. One being 'Strafing Run is underpowered' another could be 'heals are overpowered' another could be 'how to stack resistance using exploits' and another could be 'how to be one shot by something that hits only 8k on dummies.'
By the way lucidity has managed to one shot me once if I stand still so he can melee me. I'm not exactly a hard kill, your apparent exploit bash build is a different story though. You may as well just stand there dancing and chatting while having conviction go off on a script.
I should stop doing a green, damn going to bed at 6am. Lol. <.<
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
......why?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I challenge yew to duel meh ;-p
Btw, imp why don't ya do a Sr/UR build? I'd love to see how high it could go..
I get above 25k with mine.. It's enough.
The problem is that SR is ranged and UR goes off brawler, so pure damage wise you'll always be at a disadvantage with this combo. It's a combo made for a tank basically, especially seeing as you need time to get the combo off right. It's not made for the quick kill in my opinion although it is a burst.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Yea, it makes for some really boring duels. It's just a very boring build in general. I don't recommend it and I know many people can confirm (lots of people have used this combo before me.)
I dunno, I might roll a dex/str/ego build in pts to see how far I can reach. Probably NW in hybrid role. Might as well add rimefire burst and the new particle thingie too...damn if only there was an elemental+energy damage passive it would make this combo shine.