Down to "only" 8.3 million paying customers. Oh my God, it's dying, right?
Sky, it wasn't a "smokescreen" - NW referenced the other games as "doing BETTER than CO in terms of popularity and population", with the implication that it was because they supposedly don't lock you out of sub benefits if a sub lapses. Therefore, it is quite appropriate to look at the game with the most "popularity and population", and compare the terms. And that one doesn't even let you play if you let a sub lapse. Ergo, it seems likely that the comparison being drawn by NW is inaccurate. More data is always better.
Actually, the games I mentioned are fairly NEW mmo's. None of them have been out as long as WoW. WoW is a dinosaur and the reason they are falling down in numbers is because of the restrictions you made reference too. The reason WoW has so many subscribers is, it's an ancient mmo.
MMO's have gone into a new world of free to play, and the one's who refuse to follow are slowly sinking like Star Wars Old Republic. I know SWOR is now calling itself free to play, but once you make an account and get started you soon find out that it isn't.
As far as wow being the biggest mmo out there, well that will change soon enough with the list of subscribers dropping off. Face it, wow isn't the only boss on the block anymore and there are far too many other options to be bullied into unfair subscriptions and over priced content.
Sklyger's cash shop plan would really get the money rolling in, in my opinion. His idea would bring in new players and also prompt players to purchase the content.
The more players you have the more money you make. The more reasonable you are on the prices and restrictions to your product ( game ) the more money you will make. If you choose the SWOR way of doing things, well, you see what happened to them.
Here is an interesting article I ran across about the games former WoW players have jumped ship to.
Actually, if you want to damn anyone's shortsightedness with those numbers, you might want to look to Blizzard.
This is either evidence that you failed to read or comprehend my post, or you're trying to dance around the bush. Just a few posts ago you were using Blizzard's practices to justify Cryptic's, and I was refuting that.
And somehow you build a strawman that claims that I was blaming WoW's drop-off of subscription numbers on Cryptic.
You're a real piece of work, Jon.
As F2P spreads and becomes the norm for MMOs (as it seems to be doing), they persist in maintaining it only in the sense of a limited trial of the game. If you want to actually play the silly thing, you've got to give them money.
Says he who just said posts ago that WoW wasn't having any problems because of their archaic subscription model.
So bush-dancing, got it.
Contrast to CO, where the only play limitation for Silvers is that you have to play an AT, rather than Freeform. It's difficult to do a comparison on that, because I don't know of any other MMO that even has a Freeform-style option
Chaelk has just named the Secret World.
- most of them are class-based, and no matter how strong your Mage is he will never be allowed to learn how to use a zweihander. In CO, you can, for a price, make a toon with both magical and HW powers. (As the saying has it, "Free For All, not All For Free.")
And if your subscription lapses, you're locked out of those characters and need to spend more money to retcon them into archetypes. It's a stupid penalty. You should keep what you paid for.
Think, wouldn't it be nice if you were Gold (I know, I know, you're already a Silver, Jon) but had to go Silver for whatever reason, and got to keep your Free Forms? Sure, you wouldn't be allowed to make new Free Forms as a Gold subscriber does (meaning you'd have to buy the Free Form slot in the C-store if you wanted to create more), but your characters wouldn't be held for ransom like they are now under the current system.
I still maintain that one of the major reasons we don't have a very large player base is because there is absolutely no advertising of this game. It's hard to attract many new players when they have to stumble across the place...
CO doesn't have that many subscribers because it's just not a very good game, for a variety of reasons, but in no small part because it's gone ignored and neglected. Why does WoW bury the competition? Because it is simply a better game than anything else [in the same genre] out there, with a depth of content that dwarves its closest competitors. Eight million people playing a game that's been around almost a decade should be telling that there is more to it than many of you are giving it credit for. To say that WoW is popular for any other reason than its own merits is so extremely disingenuous I cannot even begin to fathom the depth of willful ignorance it would take to come to that ridiculous conclusion.
CO doesn't have that many subscribers because it's just not a very good game, for a variety of reasons, but in no small part because it's gone ignored and neglected. Why does WoW bury the competition? Because it is simply a better game than anything else [in the same genre] out there, with a depth of content that dwarves its closest competitors. Eight million people playing a game that's been around almost a decade should be telling that there is more to it than many of you are giving it credit for. To say that WoW is popular for any other reason than its own merits is so extremely disingenuous I cannot even begin to fathom the depth of willful ignorance it would take to come to that ridiculous conclusion.
Seriously AGREE.
CO isn't doing badly because of its restrictions on the free form system. That's just asinine.
CO is don't badly because there has not been funds to expand any of its major content systems.
And to say WoW is bad cause it lost 600,000 subs in one quarter, yet still has millions of players . . . freaking LOL.
Point to me how many other MMOs have 5+ million players currently.
I'll wait . . .
*hears crickets*
P.S. With that said I'd play CO over WoW any day of the week . . . now if only CO had added some significant content since the last time I actually posted.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
CO isn't doing badly because of its restrictions on the free form system. That's just asinine.
CO is don't badly because there has not been funds to expand any of its major content systems.
And to say WoW is bad cause it lost 600,000 subs in one quarter, yet still has millions of players . . . freaking LOL.
Point to me how many other MMOs have 5+ million players currently.
I'll wait . . .
*hears crickets*
P.S. With that said I'd play CO over WoW any day of the week . . . now if only CO had added some significant content since the last time I actually posted.
Like you stated, Wow has been around for a decade so that is the reason for it's high numbers. Now seeing that wow is losing players, let's see where wow ends up in another decade or so and let's also see where other mmo's end up in that same time period.
Important thing to remember is, wow is losing players and the new mmo's are gaining them.
CO if it wishes to live and grow would be well served to drop subbing options completely, make a new account start with one free slot, and access to one power set, then charge 10 dollars per power set added to their account options, and 10 dollars for each new character slot. Remove the gaining of character slots upon capping a toon( worst idea ever as it bred way out of hand rampant altaholism here that really kept the game from ever getting solid high end content additions. Content designed to be run by the lowest to the highest can never include actual game mechanic challenges for the high end spectrum.
No. If CO goes sub-free, and does anything remotely like what you suggest.... I'll be gone.
I started playing Champions Online right as free-to-play started - first day as a matter of fact. I was getting tired of the same ol' same ol' in City Of... so I created a character. I liked the fresh modern graphics, the feel of certain powers, and the overall vibe. But I hated being stuck in yet another AT, which I found to be extremely limiting. I bought a sub less than 2 days later.
Now over 800 days later, I am still having fun. I've paid my $15 each and every month, and never regretted it. I've spent far more on occasion because I wanted a specific costume or travel power, but for a LONG time now, $15 a month has been the norm. I get everything I bought, plus over 40 slots now (all freeform) and get 500 Z a month. I can farm for questionite on multiple 40's, so I can easily make 100 zen a day (yeah I know, I made a dollar!) or I can level another toon to 40. Not tired of it yet...
CO's giving you a free slot upon leveling of a toon is a brilliant thing in my opinion, as it's reward for an accomplishment. It makes me feel good to see that new slot, and I can hardly wait to start anew.
The designers of this game could have easily put more content for level 40's if they desired, but they chose not to for whatever reason. The lack of end game content is most likely the reason they give you another slot, otherwise you'd be forced to buy more slots. And when everyone's a sub, being forced to spend more money to keep playing wouldn't go over so well.
Imagine if for example there was content that made it so if you didnt have at least one vertical travel power and one long ranged power how much QQ would come from all the meat headed land bound melee specs who dont even belong on a game with free form options.
I'm having difficulty following that sentence, but I'd say that if said content was single-player-capable yet unplayable unless you had a ranged attack, it would be poorly designed. I'd also say that it appears that you have some beef with non-flying melee players. The idea behind Champions's freeform design was to be the hero you want to be, not what someone else thinks you should be. Freeform doesn't mean forcing you to choose a ranged option, or into taking a vertical travel power. You've got it all wrong...
Each MMO has a niche they need to cater to, COs should of been free form focussed RP PVP/PVE players with no care for non RPers, altaholics, or boxxed in thinkers. They belonged on other games. But because CO never made a hard line in the sand about what type of player they wanted, they lost too many from every front. Now CO is filled with wannaPRs, altaholics who think their long ago LTS is still worth something to the game company when really when PWE took over they should of voided all those old contracts.
Champions Online's niche is the Super Hero MMO. Outside of the now-defunct "City of...", there's no one else doing it. Marvel's so different it doesn't count; and DC's offering is too dumbed down to be enjoyable for many of us.
I am not an RP'er, but I think every game should encourage RP'ers. They bring a lot to the game, much as those of who don't. Unless a specific type of play is a HUGE problem, I don't think that any subset of players should be excluded. To do so is to basically say "I don't want your money." Poor business practice x10.
And your suggestion that PWE void the LTS's? You understand the word "lifetime" right?
There is nothing in CO for the majority of gamers out there now except the free form character building, and that just took a huge hit with DDOs revamp of their own enhancement and multi class systems. Where only a small handful of classes and races are barred from FTPers, and several of those pay for races and classes can be unlocked via standard game play fast.
What is DDO? Is that a Super Hero MMO? If not, it's not really relevant here - Champions caters specifically to Super Hero/Comic gamers, just as STO caters to Trek and Sci-Fi lovers. If DDO is a Superhero game I've missed, please fill me in!
So frankly I find more super hero free form fun on DDO where I can make a guy who can solo their Epic ELite dif and actually be worthy of some kind of player peer recognition where here not a damn thing anyone has ever done has been worth a second thought beyond mockery and derision.
Interesting. I've solo'd various Elite Cosmics, and experienced no mockery or derision. I'm confused...
CO has never been and never will be big enough or frankly a good enough game play experience to warrant the price tags associated with it to the vast majority of quality gamers who have too many reasonable options to indulge in.
Clearly, these are you opinions. I for one do not feel things are too expensive here, especially compared to some other MMO's which seem to charge you for ANYTHING cool. But the reality is that Champions Online isn't competition for Neverwinter, Star Trek Online, ****, World Of ********, Final Fantasy or pretty much any other MMO out there. If you consider them as viable options, you probably wouldn't play CO very long, as I've yet to see any other MMO do the Hero thing as good, much less better. I myself don't see ANY other game out there as an alternative to CO, so we can see here how wildly opinions can vary.
Hell for my heroic PVP fix lately I am playing Gothams Most Wanted a fun game I found for free on Steam.
Ah, if you are a PvP'er then there's another variance. I haven't the time or desire to PvP, but I do know that many people feel that CO's PvP isn't what it was, or should be. No doubt you've experienced similar.
CO doesn't have that many subscribers because it's just not a very good game, for a variety of reasons, but in no small part because it's gone ignored and neglected. Why does WoW bury the competition? Because it is simply a better game than anything else [in the same genre] out there, with a depth of content that dwarves its closest competitors. Eight million people playing a game that's been around almost a decade should be telling that there is more to it than many of you are giving it credit for. To say that WoW is popular for any other reason than its own merits is so extremely disingenuous I cannot even begin to fathom the depth of willful ignorance it would take to come to that ridiculous conclusion.
While I can't do anything but agree to the relatively low number subscribers, I wouldn't say it's because CO isn't a very good game. Low player volume is most certainly due to the lack of new content, and to the lack of endgame when you finally make it to 40. Lackluster customer service certainly plays a part, and of course when the player base diminishes, there's yet another reason NOT to stay. As much as I love the comic book/heroic genre, it's very small compared to the Dungeons and Dragons and WoW worlds. There are so many MMO's with sorceress/witches, sorcerers/warlocks, fairies, ogres, demons elves, dwarves, barbarians and the ever-present scantily-clad warrior princess. It's quite obvious that there's a HUGE fanbase for fantasy worlds incorporating these types of characters, and a very small fanbase of Superhero worlds like Champions. I tried to get an idea of how many accounts City of Heroes had at it's peak, and what I found was only 194,000 accounts. It seemed like a lot back then. But WoW dwarfed it far more that I suspected.
And that's interesting, because for me WoW was never really that much fun by itself. Only when you hooked up with some fun players did it start to hold any merit for me. But it wasn't enough to keep me, because the game itself wasn't that much fun compared to CoX (or now CO). But the genre it inhabits is ingrained in our psyche through years of movies, cartoons and other games - it's so familiar for most.
WoW is the rare exception rather than the rule. It got there through it's own merits, combined with excellent marketing. While it certainly is a BIGGER game, it's not a better game to people who choose Champions over it. See, in the end it's really all just opinions :biggrin:
So while the fact remains that the playerbase is small, the reason for this isn't that Champions 'isn't a good game" - it is a good game, or no one would be on it's forums arguing anything about it. This game is a niche product (Superhero game) within a niche of gaming (MMO's). It just happens that the niche we live in is smaller than the more popular 'medieval' games.
That's not to say that things can't be improved on, be it new content, bug fixing, or content delivery (i.e. lockboxes -vs- get what you pay for models). But I seriously doubt that if Champions released new content every week, had 100 endgame missions, 10 more zones and every single bug fixed that it'd have 1/4 as many players as DC Online. And maybe 1/10th WoW's current playerbase.
CO doesn't have that many subscribers because it's just not a very good game, for a variety of reasons, but in no small part because it's gone ignored and neglected. Why does WoW bury the competition? Because it is simply a better game than anything else [in the same genre] out there, with a depth of content that dwarves its closest competitors. Eight million people playing a game that's been around almost a decade should be telling that there is more to it than many of you are giving it credit for. To say that WoW is popular for any other reason than its own merits is so extremely disingenuous I cannot even begin to fathom the depth of willful ignorance it would take to come to that ridiculous conclusion.
Really? Are you for real? Is this an astroturf?
I seem to recall that most players of WoW actually hate the game, but play anyway because they have friends playing. In essence, WoW is the Facebook of the MMO world.
And if your subscription lapses, you're locked out of those characters and need to spend more money to retcon them into archetypes.
No you aren't. Every character comes with a free Retrain Token which can be used at any time to change the character to an Archetype or Freeform, or to change your AT.
If the character is already an AT (either a free one or a premium one that you already bought), there's no charge to convert between Silver and Gold, as long as you keep the same AT.
And if you're converting from Gold to Silver, it's always free to convert from a Freeform or unavailable AT to a free or already purchased AT.
It's a stupid penalty.
No, it's a stupid system that is far too complicated and doesn't explain itself clearly. But there's no "penalty" unless you're constantly converting between AT and Freeform, and in that case, it's your own fault. Before I went Lifetime, I kept two characters as free ATs so that I kept access to them while unsubbed. Problem solved.
You should keep what you paid for.
Did you buy a Freeform slot? If so, you DO keep the Freeform you paid for. If not, you didn't "pay for" it, you rented it. If you stop paying your cable subscription, do you get mad because you can't watch HBO any more?
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
CO doesn't have that many subscribers because it's just not a very good game, for a variety of reasons, but in no small part because it's gone ignored and neglected. Why does WoW bury the competition? Because it is simply a better game than anything else [in the same genre] out there, with a depth of content that dwarves its closest competitors. Eight million people playing a game that's been around almost a decade should be telling that there is more to it than many of you are giving it credit for. To say that WoW is popular for any other reason than its own merits is so extremely disingenuous I cannot even begin to fathom the depth of willful ignorance it would take to come to that ridiculous conclusion.
Being popular does not make WoW a good game or a bad game. It just makes it a popular game. Popularity is not a measure of product quality. Billions of people do not play WoW, that does not make it a bad game.
Being popular does not make WoW a good game or a bad game. It just makes it a popular game. Popularity is not a measure of product quality. Billions of people do not play WoW, that does not make it a bad game.
I hate to say it, but sometimes Champs feels like Myspace. You have almost unlimited creativity and of course the socialization, but there's a more popular product out there that may be similar but not as customizable.
There's an avid group of people that still play the game and enjoy it, despite the general populace not being aware of it's existence even. Those that do play are not happy with it's unpopularity/issues or are in a limbo if hope that maybe, just maybe one day it will get the attention it deserves.
So... yeah.... Myspace, almost ><
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
I hate to say it, but sometimes Champs feels like Myspace. You have almost unlimited creativity and of course the socialization, but there's a more popular product out there that may be similar but not as customizable.
There's an avid group of people that still play the game and enjoy it, despite the general populace not being aware of it's existence even. Those that do play are not happy with it's unpopularity/issues or are in a limbo if hope that maybe, just maybe one day it will get the attention it deserves.
So... yeah.... Myspace, almost ><
Twinkle-GIF Myspace backgrounds were the blackredder costumes of their day.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
No you aren't. Every character comes with a free Retrain Token which can be used at any time to change the character to an Archetype or Freeform, or to change your AT.
If the character is already an AT (either a free one or a premium one that you already bought), there's no charge to convert between Silver and Gold, as long as you keep the same AT.
And if you're converting from Gold to Silver, it's always free to convert from a Freeform or unavailable AT to a free or already purchased AT.
Really? Then why do I seem to recall people complaining about having to pay to "unlock" their characters?
No, it's a stupid system that is far too complicated and doesn't explain itself clearly.
That much seems to be correct.
Did you buy a Freeform slot? If so, you DO keep the Freeform you paid for. If not, you didn't "pay for" it, you rented it. If you stop paying your cable subscription, do you get mad because you can't watch HBO any more?
This may have been a valid argument when every MMO was subscribe to play, but in this era of free to play, it's not.
For example, I started as silver, and converted my six silver toons to gold. I also had 3 FF slots, which stayed the same when I went gold. As gold, I have 22 more toons.
If I go back to silver, I cannot convert my original group of toons back for free.
My FF slots stay the same.
My 22 other toons can all be converted to silver ATs, ONCE, for free.
The problem people have is when the switch between silver and gold several times, convert toons for free the first time, and then cannot do so for free again.
You can switch back and forth for free, assuming you maintain the same AT. For instance, one that I've done - you can create a Behemoth as a Silver, carry it over to Gold when you sub, and turn it back to Silver for free when you lapse - you lose special emanation points, special powers colors, extra storage slots, and any costume parts you don't have as a Silver, but there's no charge per se.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
CO if it wishes to live and grow would be well served to drop subbing options completely, make a new account start with one free slot, and access to one power set, then charge 10 dollars per power set added to their account options, and 10 dollars for each new character slot. Remove the gaining of character slots upon capping a toon( worst idea ever as it bred way out of hand rampant altaholism here that really kept the game from ever getting solid high end content additions. Content designed to be run by the lowest to the highest can never include actual game mechanic challenges for the high end spectrum.
YOU LEAVE MY GAME ALONE.
No, seriously. I make alts. It's what I do. In single player RPGs I'm likely to start one of each kind of character a few times until I decide what to finish the story with. In MMOs I max out my slots with different kinds of characters until I have to delete some and narrow down which ones I'm going to play.
In no games do I care about end-game content. I like variety. I like having the ability to make lots of unique characters which play differently. I really don't want to run the same dungeons hundreds of times to collect rare gear in order to run some other dungeon thousands of times to collect rarer gear. I don't want to PvP.
Champions is the game I keep coming back to, because I can play it the way I want to play it.
I am an LTS. That $200 was the best value I have spent on gaming. Why? The alt-friendliness and customizability of Champions.
I'm not even a superhero fan. The only comics I really got into were Sandman, The Invisibles, and Transmetropolitan with a bit of Poison Elves. But this game has alt-friendliness and customizability. I like SF and fantasy, and I can get close enough to both of those here.
I currently have 52 characters, of which 28 are level 40. I have done no end-game content with any of those level 40s.
I passed the 900 day mark a couple weeks ago. (And back when new costume sets in the C-store were a regular occurence, I usually bought more costumes than my stipend covered.) If it were what you just asked for, I wouldn't have stayed a week.
For example, I started as silver, and converted my six silver toons to gold. I also had 3 FF slots, which stayed the same when I went gold. As gold, I have 22 more toons.
If I go back to silver, I cannot convert my original group of toons back for free.
My FF slots stay the same.
My 22 other toons can all be converted to silver ATs, ONCE, for free.
The problem people have is when the switch between silver and gold several times, convert toons for free the first time, and then cannot do so for free again.
Okay, that helps clarify the things I've been reading. Thank you.
Doesn't change my mind about the setup being stupid. What you've described sounds more complex than it should be.
Comments
Actually, the games I mentioned are fairly NEW mmo's. None of them have been out as long as WoW. WoW is a dinosaur and the reason they are falling down in numbers is because of the restrictions you made reference too. The reason WoW has so many subscribers is, it's an ancient mmo.
MMO's have gone into a new world of free to play, and the one's who refuse to follow are slowly sinking like Star Wars Old Republic. I know SWOR is now calling itself free to play, but once you make an account and get started you soon find out that it isn't.
As far as wow being the biggest mmo out there, well that will change soon enough with the list of subscribers dropping off. Face it, wow isn't the only boss on the block anymore and there are far too many other options to be bullied into unfair subscriptions and over priced content.
Sklyger's cash shop plan would really get the money rolling in, in my opinion. His idea would bring in new players and also prompt players to purchase the content.
The more players you have the more money you make. The more reasonable you are on the prices and restrictions to your product ( game ) the more money you will make. If you choose the SWOR way of doing things, well, you see what happened to them.
Here is an interesting article I ran across about the games former WoW players have jumped ship to.
Link: http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/05/13/ddo-jumps-to-third-most-popular-spot-in-mmo-survey/
Thanks for your reply.
http://www.gamesradar.com/*********-officially-hits-mammoth-200-millionth-user-milestone/
I remember when playing WOW at a game cafe, 2 signs,
WOW over 10million people playing,
Rune..scape over 230 million people playing
They have the new game running plus the classic
I would also point out that all of those get a lot of advertising, we get none.
also the newer games are made as F2p, so their costing is in the shop
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
This is either evidence that you failed to read or comprehend my post, or you're trying to dance around the bush. Just a few posts ago you were using Blizzard's practices to justify Cryptic's, and I was refuting that.
And somehow you build a strawman that claims that I was blaming WoW's drop-off of subscription numbers on Cryptic.
You're a real piece of work, Jon.
Says he who just said posts ago that WoW wasn't having any problems because of their archaic subscription model.
So bush-dancing, got it.
Chaelk has just named the Secret World.
And if your subscription lapses, you're locked out of those characters and need to spend more money to retcon them into archetypes. It's a stupid penalty. You should keep what you paid for.
Think, wouldn't it be nice if you were Gold (I know, I know, you're already a Silver, Jon) but had to go Silver for whatever reason, and got to keep your Free Forms? Sure, you wouldn't be allowed to make new Free Forms as a Gold subscriber does (meaning you'd have to buy the Free Form slot in the C-store if you wanted to create more), but your characters wouldn't be held for ransom like they are now under the current system.
No dispute on that point.
Seriously AGREE.
CO isn't doing badly because of its restrictions on the free form system. That's just asinine.
CO is don't badly because there has not been funds to expand any of its major content systems.
And to say WoW is bad cause it lost 600,000 subs in one quarter, yet still has millions of players . . . freaking LOL.
Point to me how many other MMOs have 5+ million players currently.
I'll wait . . .
*hears crickets*
P.S. With that said I'd play CO over WoW any day of the week . . . now if only CO had added some significant content since the last time I actually posted.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Like you stated, Wow has been around for a decade so that is the reason for it's high numbers. Now seeing that wow is losing players, let's see where wow ends up in another decade or so and let's also see where other mmo's end up in that same time period.
Important thing to remember is, wow is losing players and the new mmo's are gaining them.
No. If CO goes sub-free, and does anything remotely like what you suggest.... I'll be gone.
I started playing Champions Online right as free-to-play started - first day as a matter of fact. I was getting tired of the same ol' same ol' in City Of... so I created a character. I liked the fresh modern graphics, the feel of certain powers, and the overall vibe. But I hated being stuck in yet another AT, which I found to be extremely limiting. I bought a sub less than 2 days later.
Now over 800 days later, I am still having fun. I've paid my $15 each and every month, and never regretted it. I've spent far more on occasion because I wanted a specific costume or travel power, but for a LONG time now, $15 a month has been the norm. I get everything I bought, plus over 40 slots now (all freeform) and get 500 Z a month. I can farm for questionite on multiple 40's, so I can easily make 100 zen a day (yeah I know, I made a dollar!) or I can level another toon to 40. Not tired of it yet...
CO's giving you a free slot upon leveling of a toon is a brilliant thing in my opinion, as it's reward for an accomplishment. It makes me feel good to see that new slot, and I can hardly wait to start anew.
The designers of this game could have easily put more content for level 40's if they desired, but they chose not to for whatever reason. The lack of end game content is most likely the reason they give you another slot, otherwise you'd be forced to buy more slots. And when everyone's a sub, being forced to spend more money to keep playing wouldn't go over so well.
I'm having difficulty following that sentence, but I'd say that if said content was single-player-capable yet unplayable unless you had a ranged attack, it would be poorly designed. I'd also say that it appears that you have some beef with non-flying melee players. The idea behind Champions's freeform design was to be the hero you want to be, not what someone else thinks you should be. Freeform doesn't mean forcing you to choose a ranged option, or into taking a vertical travel power. You've got it all wrong...
Champions Online's niche is the Super Hero MMO. Outside of the now-defunct "City of...", there's no one else doing it. Marvel's so different it doesn't count; and DC's offering is too dumbed down to be enjoyable for many of us.
I am not an RP'er, but I think every game should encourage RP'ers. They bring a lot to the game, much as those of who don't. Unless a specific type of play is a HUGE problem, I don't think that any subset of players should be excluded. To do so is to basically say "I don't want your money." Poor business practice x10.
And your suggestion that PWE void the LTS's? You understand the word "lifetime" right?
What is DDO? Is that a Super Hero MMO? If not, it's not really relevant here - Champions caters specifically to Super Hero/Comic gamers, just as STO caters to Trek and Sci-Fi lovers. If DDO is a Superhero game I've missed, please fill me in!
Interesting. I've solo'd various Elite Cosmics, and experienced no mockery or derision. I'm confused...
Clearly, these are you opinions. I for one do not feel things are too expensive here, especially compared to some other MMO's which seem to charge you for ANYTHING cool. But the reality is that Champions Online isn't competition for Neverwinter, Star Trek Online, ****, World Of ********, Final Fantasy or pretty much any other MMO out there. If you consider them as viable options, you probably wouldn't play CO very long, as I've yet to see any other MMO do the Hero thing as good, much less better. I myself don't see ANY other game out there as an alternative to CO, so we can see here how wildly opinions can vary.
Ah, if you are a PvP'er then there's another variance. I haven't the time or desire to PvP, but I do know that many people feel that CO's PvP isn't what it was, or should be. No doubt you've experienced similar.
I agree, the PvP experience should be better.
While I can't do anything but agree to the relatively low number subscribers, I wouldn't say it's because CO isn't a very good game. Low player volume is most certainly due to the lack of new content, and to the lack of endgame when you finally make it to 40. Lackluster customer service certainly plays a part, and of course when the player base diminishes, there's yet another reason NOT to stay. As much as I love the comic book/heroic genre, it's very small compared to the Dungeons and Dragons and WoW worlds. There are so many MMO's with sorceress/witches, sorcerers/warlocks, fairies, ogres, demons elves, dwarves, barbarians and the ever-present scantily-clad warrior princess. It's quite obvious that there's a HUGE fanbase for fantasy worlds incorporating these types of characters, and a very small fanbase of Superhero worlds like Champions. I tried to get an idea of how many accounts City of Heroes had at it's peak, and what I found was only 194,000 accounts. It seemed like a lot back then. But WoW dwarfed it far more that I suspected.
And that's interesting, because for me WoW was never really that much fun by itself. Only when you hooked up with some fun players did it start to hold any merit for me. But it wasn't enough to keep me, because the game itself wasn't that much fun compared to CoX (or now CO). But the genre it inhabits is ingrained in our psyche through years of movies, cartoons and other games - it's so familiar for most.
WoW is the rare exception rather than the rule. It got there through it's own merits, combined with excellent marketing. While it certainly is a BIGGER game, it's not a better game to people who choose Champions over it. See, in the end it's really all just opinions :biggrin:
So while the fact remains that the playerbase is small, the reason for this isn't that Champions 'isn't a good game" - it is a good game, or no one would be on it's forums arguing anything about it. This game is a niche product (Superhero game) within a niche of gaming (MMO's). It just happens that the niche we live in is smaller than the more popular 'medieval' games.
That's not to say that things can't be improved on, be it new content, bug fixing, or content delivery (i.e. lockboxes -vs- get what you pay for models). But I seriously doubt that if Champions released new content every week, had 100 endgame missions, 10 more zones and every single bug fixed that it'd have 1/4 as many players as DC Online. And maybe 1/10th WoW's current playerbase.
Really? Are you for real? Is this an astroturf?
I seem to recall that most players of WoW actually hate the game, but play anyway because they have friends playing. In essence, WoW is the Facebook of the MMO world.
No you aren't. Every character comes with a free Retrain Token which can be used at any time to change the character to an Archetype or Freeform, or to change your AT.
If the character is already an AT (either a free one or a premium one that you already bought), there's no charge to convert between Silver and Gold, as long as you keep the same AT.
And if you're converting from Gold to Silver, it's always free to convert from a Freeform or unavailable AT to a free or already purchased AT.
No, it's a stupid system that is far too complicated and doesn't explain itself clearly. But there's no "penalty" unless you're constantly converting between AT and Freeform, and in that case, it's your own fault. Before I went Lifetime, I kept two characters as free ATs so that I kept access to them while unsubbed. Problem solved.
Did you buy a Freeform slot? If so, you DO keep the Freeform you paid for. If not, you didn't "pay for" it, you rented it. If you stop paying your cable subscription, do you get mad because you can't watch HBO any more?
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Being popular does not make WoW a good game or a bad game. It just makes it a popular game. Popularity is not a measure of product quality. Billions of people do not play WoW, that does not make it a bad game.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records-7000/most-popular-free-mmorpg/
missing word minus the ... is Rune...scape
most popular subscription game is WOW
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I think that would make us Google Plus... :cool:
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I hate to say it, but sometimes Champs feels like Myspace. You have almost unlimited creativity and of course the socialization, but there's a more popular product out there that may be similar but not as customizable.
There's an avid group of people that still play the game and enjoy it, despite the general populace not being aware of it's existence even. Those that do play are not happy with it's unpopularity/issues or are in a limbo if hope that maybe, just maybe one day it will get the attention it deserves.
So... yeah.... Myspace, almost ><
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Twinkle-GIF Myspace backgrounds were the blackredder costumes of their day.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
:biggrin: can we get it on tights or a vehicle?
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Really? Then why do I seem to recall people complaining about having to pay to "unlock" their characters?
That much seems to be correct.
This may have been a valid argument when every MMO was subscribe to play, but in this era of free to play, it's not.
So the comparison doesn't work.
For example, I started as silver, and converted my six silver toons to gold. I also had 3 FF slots, which stayed the same when I went gold. As gold, I have 22 more toons.
If I go back to silver, I cannot convert my original group of toons back for free.
My FF slots stay the same.
My 22 other toons can all be converted to silver ATs, ONCE, for free.
The problem people have is when the switch between silver and gold several times, convert toons for free the first time, and then cannot do so for free again.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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YOU LEAVE MY GAME ALONE.
No, seriously. I make alts. It's what I do. In single player RPGs I'm likely to start one of each kind of character a few times until I decide what to finish the story with. In MMOs I max out my slots with different kinds of characters until I have to delete some and narrow down which ones I'm going to play.
In no games do I care about end-game content. I like variety. I like having the ability to make lots of unique characters which play differently. I really don't want to run the same dungeons hundreds of times to collect rare gear in order to run some other dungeon thousands of times to collect rarer gear. I don't want to PvP.
Champions is the game I keep coming back to, because I can play it the way I want to play it.
I am an LTS. That $200 was the best value I have spent on gaming. Why? The alt-friendliness and customizability of Champions.
I'm not even a superhero fan. The only comics I really got into were Sandman, The Invisibles, and Transmetropolitan with a bit of Poison Elves. But this game has alt-friendliness and customizability. I like SF and fantasy, and I can get close enough to both of those here.
I currently have 52 characters, of which 28 are level 40. I have done no end-game content with any of those level 40s.
I passed the 900 day mark a couple weeks ago. (And back when new costume sets in the C-store were a regular occurence, I usually bought more costumes than my stipend covered.) If it were what you just asked for, I wouldn't have stayed a week.
Okay, that helps clarify the things I've been reading. Thank you.
Doesn't change my mind about the setup being stupid. What you've described sounds more complex than it should be.