Yeah, there is some kind of issue that I haven't been able to resolve. I've fiddled with the graphics settings, and it still looks off. I have no trouble in CO or STO with getting decent quality with minimal lag issues, but NWO kind of eludes me.
And, while my computer isn't some epic artifact suitable for the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race, it's no slouch. I can run most MMOs at only a step below max settings without the performance suffering noticeably.
Are you sure you don't have the renderscale set to below 1?
Poor controls, poor graphics, on-rails playstyle; the only complaint I've seen here that isn't accurate is the one about only three classes and everybody uses swords (or giant freaking "daggers"). There's also the "mage" class (yeah, just try to cast Light on an enemy's eyes - one of my favorite low-level spells in D&D, blinds 'em real good), who walk around juggling their giant balls...
The guy said that of the three melee classes all of them use swords. Not that there were only three classes to use.
Poor controls, poor graphics, on-rails playstyle; the only complaint I've seen here that isn't accurate is the one about only three classes and everybody uses swords (or giant freaking "daggers"). There's also the "mage" class (yeah, just try to cast Light on an enemy's eyes - one of my favorite low-level spells in D&D, blinds 'em real good), who walk around juggling their giant balls...
if you were referring to my post, i said every melee class uses swords. cleric and control mage are ranged classes (i played a cleric myself.) and use holy symbols and, didnt see what control mages use, but it was not a melee weapon. my complaint was there are no mace/polearm/axe users, nor options to use them in the existing builds. are disputing that?
I've had the same problem as atring. No matter what I do, NW comes across looking like CO with half-graphics on (and a muddy color palette). I can run CO in a mode where I can see my hero's exaggerated comic-book-style musculature, and the textures on the costumes - but in NW, no such luck.
This right here irks me as well. I'm not asking for everything to look like an LSD trip during an episode of Rainbow Brite, but even ancient Rome was a colorful place.
Just an overlay, and I have only found one so far of low level, so in order to put them on my high lvl guy it gets a little costly to change the appearance of the daggers to the axes
Are you sure you don't have the renderscale set to below 1?
I can't say for sure, since I'm not on the computer that has the game installed, ATM. I poked at a lot of settings. I would like to say that I was methodical and hit them all, but I have no reliable recollection. I'll do a more detailed test, tonight, and take some notes as I go, but it's really not what's keeping me from playing the game.
I'm kinda with the other posters who are getting the D&D fix from other places (for me, I'm also introducing my two sons to the old box sets and 2nd ED; yes, I still have them :biggrin:). I'm OK with STO, I loke CO, but NWO just kind of misses a lot of marks, for me. It's not a failure, in my eyes, nor is it a terrible game. In a genre where there is a glut of options, I don't find anything in it to pull me away from anything I'm already playing.
I will still try the renderscale, though, and give the settings another look. The troubleshooter in me is intrigued.
So, Neverwinter's melee folks are trying to be monster hunters? (And yes, those are among the SMALLER weapons available.)
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Well, if you ever get graphics sorted out... NW graphics are at least a generation better. The weapons look better, animate better, and your character seems to be swinging a sword rather than awkwardly waving a nerf weapon around with a handle your hand sinks into.
Let's be clear, I fault NW for a lot of things and there are many elements that are superior in CO.
But basic graphics aren't even arguably it.
(Art direction is more arguable, although there are some VERY neat environments and stylistic shifts in the game, like walking across a bridge that isn't a bridge in the icy ... Vellosk?)
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Again, say what you will about art style, but the hair alone is significantly more detailed than the plastic hair caps CO has.
I didn't have a good CO character with medieval-style armor (and I don't care quite enough to go and make one), but CO armors are also a lot less detailed.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Again, say what you will about art style, but the hair alone is significantly more detailed than the plastic hair caps CO has.
I didn't have a good CO character with medieval-style armor (and I don't care quite enough to go and make one), but CO armors are also a lot less detailed.
After playing the game for several hours and progressing to about level 15 or so, I was still wearing that same set of armor. I thought it may have been something I missed, but nope- everyone in the game was wearing this armor. So yeah, your armor is going to look detailed and better if they've only made 10 different pieces of it.
I'll take my less detailed, less-shiny CO options over another generic chainmail shirt.
And you're right about the hair. It's the most detailed straw I've ever seen jabbed into a plastic doll's head.
Has anyone, at any point, claimed the options and style of Neverwinter is better?
I'm no analyst, detective, or even what could be considered an investigative genius... but I just happened to notice it was the actual name of this thread you're posting in.
But hey, Neverwinter's graphics might be 'more advanced' but it still looks like garbage to me.
So yeah, your armor is going to look detailed and better if they've only made 10 different pieces of it.
To be fair, there is more then that. However, the armor does follow a predictable pattern. Below 60 there are 4 appearance brackets, about every 15 levels. When you cross into a new bracket, the armors within the set shift fairly dramatically. Even the item icon changes to reflect this.
Within each bracket there seems to be 4 main styles, with minor subtle differences between each one. And this gets further broken down with each style having a chance to have optional parts tacked on. It might be a style 1 jacket, but it has an optional hip guard, or a slightly different shoulder guard, ect.
The problem with the looks is really two fold. In an effort to keep everything stylistically the same. The differences really come off as VERY minor and easily missed. This is further compounded by having all gear of the same class always come in the same default uniform color. It reduces the games customization to something similar to a military prep school.
I can only assume this was an artistic choice. The idea being, that by keeping everything stylistically similar and in matching colors. They avoided horrible clashing "skittled" type characters. You know the type, Red armor, pink boots, green gloves, ect.
I can only imagine the rage and outcry had that option been a reality. Everything from "Its breaking my immersion" to "They are FORCING us to buy dye, just to look normal"
Had they spent a bit more time, doubled the number of style brackets, and had armor within that style also shift to another color pallet. I feel most of the complaints would go away. So while, there is variety, it really has a feel like they only did the bare minimum. That said, I do see potential here. I generally dislike games where gear decides my characters outward looks. I rarely cringe putting on new gear in NW. I at least know its not going to look terrible or out of place.
For me, there are two things at work in the graphics: the characters and the environment.
The Environment is gorgeous. That is without question. Dialing up the settings to max provides an impressive, almost cinematic vista. I say almost, because it's still not photo-real, like one would see in a summer blockbuster. That would probably make even the most powerful gaming machine go all 'splody.
The characters are still off. Even at maximum setting (just popping the slider to max, not doing any fiddling with advanced settings), the scene looks like an old Hanna Barbera cartoon. The detail on the characters is lower, and the color is different. The characters don't look like part of the environment, but something separate from it. I can go into the creator and make an image like the one posted above, but that's not what it ends up looking like in the game.
In Champs and STO, the characters (or ships/vehicles) render the same as the environment, so everything blends smoothly. There is less break in the illusion. There are definite places where I can see it as a difference in stylistic choices. In a fantasy game, you want the sense of sweeping vistas and epic tales, particularly if you're attempting to do it "in" something as venerated as Dungeons & Dragons. Champions looks like a comic book, and Star Trek looks, well, like Star Trek. That's fine, but it's in maintaining the illusion that I find Neverwinter lacking. On the surface, it's a much better looking game than DDO, which went for the same sort of visual style. (Although, I have to fault Cryptic for using the EXACT same premise of a shipwreck survivor for the character's intro into the world! Seriously!?)
"Better" or "worse" is subjective, and could arguably be seen as itchin' for a fight. As for superior or inferior? It's the same game, just with a few tweaks and a different setting. Anything else is semantics.
I vastly prefer the way GW2 handles colors/dyes -- you collect dyes and they are unlocked for your character. Some of them (particularly very black blacks and very white whites) are very expensive.
But... then you can easily make an outfit that looks cool and you don't have that weird 'oh crud, I colored this armor and now I have better armor DANG IT'
Here are some examples from GW2. It strikes a nice balance between detail and artistic.
As for CO, say what you will about hair and whatnot, but the weapons look REALLY BAD. A handgun looks like cardboard boxes stuck together, and hands gripping weapons look... so clippy and clunky.
Again, I have a great love for the sheer RANGE of CO. I just wish the graphics were a little better and I had something to do.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Cyber: Yes, it's the topic of the thread, but you quoted ME so presumably you had read the subthread I was responding to. To whit, several people claimed that NW's basic graphics were inferior to CO. Not art style, rendering quality. They then admitted that they probably were facing a bug. Which doesn't make sense -- it should be clear from looking at a screenshot that you are having a bug, and if you know it's not displaying properly on your machine that's not a sensible indictment of the game's graphics.
I was merely and very specifically pointing out that NW's graphical fidelity is higher.
As for the shipwreck thing... it's even funnier than that, because Age of Conan _also_ uses 'you are a shipwrecked survivor' schtick, including starting you off with a shiv or boat oar and no armor to fight your way to the port city.
And to yet again reiterate my views to folks who have mayfly memories, I adore CO's range of options and ability to make ALMOST ANYTHING. I just wish we had Foundry to go... DO something with it, and it's a constant heartbreaker. (I also wish the graphics were a little better, but Foundry is more important)
Sigh.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I was very very sad that my Santa ranger can't tame any form of deer as a pet.
Dang it.
(He does have a nice antler bow, though)
And for all its flexibility, getting certain styles in GW2 can require cleverness -- that hood is only available as a starter rogue item, which required me to create a rogue, reskin a leather common head item as the hood and mail it to my ranger to skin to one of his head items...
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I gotta give some love to Guild Wars of the Gaurdians!
I honestly don't recall the system in GW1, but I do recall finding bottles of dye and being able to apply them to my clothing/armor. I got board with the original around level 17, and haven't started it back up in more than a year. I think the last time I did, it was only for a few minutes before logging off out of lack of interest. I never did bother with any of the other material, beyond the original, unexpanded game, so maybe I'm selling it short, but I can't bring myself to spend money to find out. Sorry.
As for the clipping issue, that's had whole threads dedicated to it. I personally haven't noticed anything, but others have pointed out subtle improvements to textures, here and there. Something like an object held in a moving hand is slightly more difficult, but I'm sure we'll get there. The new team has managed to put out new content that, so far, has managed to avoid any major complaints. All I have seen is grumbling about rewards and lack of permanence. It's at least a step in the right direction.
But hey, Neverwinter's graphics might be 'more advanced' but it still looks like garbage to me.
Not to try and take sides here....but NW's graphics are basically these. And what's found in STO. So if they look like garbage...by extension...these should too.
They do to me. All three games have the same face coupled with the odd proportions thing going on.
I hate the notion that realism/more detail equals better; TERA got it right with cartoony and technically sound.
Then again, this is all subjective anyways...
As for the shipwreck thing... it's even funnier than that, because Age of Conan _also_ uses 'you are a shipwrecked survivor' schtick, including starting you off with a shiv or boat oar and no armor to fight your way to the port city.
Sigh.
I was looking up which game came first, DDO or AoC, but I realized that this one is less a lack of originality. NWO came out years after those, while they came out comparatively close to each other. Also, Gygax, Arneson, and company leaned heavily on Robert Howard, as well as Tolkein, in designing the mechanics and world of the original game. OK, barbarians weren't in the original game, but they were introduced well before 2nd Ed.
I'm not saying that Cryptic has crap writers for not being original. They've set themselves up as the adaptation studio, since all but City of Heroes was based on someone else's IP, though it could be argued that CoH was an attempt at Champions Online before they had the IP, since the bulk of the creative team had spent a lot of time playing the PnP game before coming to Cryptic. I guess there are just still a lot of things about NWO that feel unfinished. The graphics is the biggest offender, for me, but there are a lot of subtle rough edges. Of course, this is the first game I've played "since beta," so I'm not holding that against it. I just take issue with the assertion put forth in the OP, mostly on that ground.
I don't fault the shipwreck thing. Having a unique idea for starting out doesn't matter, IMO, as much as doing it well.
For me, negatives of NW:
Lack of customization
Ok, sure, it's not going to have the range of 'frog-headed demon robots' that CO can have, but even if you look at other games, NW compares somewhat poorly.
When you look at character abilities rather than graphics... NW is _terrible_. I mean, jaw-droppingly godawful.
Pick a class, you can use ONE kind of weapon, in one particular way. You have a LITTLE choice of encounter/daily/etc. abilities, so it's not quite 'Gauntlet' or something, but ... wow.
And that's comparing to, say, Guild Wars 2, where each class gets 3-4 weapons plus oodles of other varying abilities/specials.
Compare to DDO... holy spit.
In DDO, I can be an archer fighter who sometimes uses a sword and shield and has Religion skill because at one point he was thinking of becoming a cleric.
Content
This is somewhat of a neutral thing... but NW has very little content. It's really NICE content, but... man, you can blow through it pretty fast. I don't know how well the dungeons are, because I kept outleveling them.
'Sidekicking'
This game could really use it, though I guess they expect everyone to hit 60 pretty fast.
Monetization
After the refreshing nature of STO, which sweet-talks my wallet open, NW is unpleasant. Respecs, mounts, companions... meh.
Maybe after the game matures it'll be less annoying, but right now it feels like being eyed up like a side of beef in a disreputable used car lot.
Granted, CO is hardly much better, but STO spoiled me.
Combat flow
I give Cryptic points for trying something rather unconventional with targeting and rooting while casting. It gives a tactical element MMOs often lack, and a rhythm of combat. Dance, baby!
Thing is, ultimately... it's annoying as heck. It works, I just doesn't enjoy it.
Positives
Foundry
I'm sure you are shocked to see this. yep. Foundry.
When you are done with doing the same content over and over and over, when you want to be creative with your Nemesis or backstory... you have FOUNDRY. Create worlds, plots, amazing stuff.
There are missions I've played made by players that are FAR better than anything Cryptic ever put out. And it's brilliant of them to yoke that energy.
NW is going to live or die by Foundry, because the rest of the game isn't good enough.
Hopefully Cryptic knows this.
Graphics
I DO like the style of NW, at least compared to CO. I like the detail, the items look weighty and 'real,' and the environments are sometimes amazing.
I'm not sure why CO gets a pass for lumpy plastic hair because it's 'like a comic book' while NW doesn't for being D&D.
And while one could excuse CO's bad weapon models for 'well, they try to do a lot of different things,' I will again point to GW2 which manages to do a decent job with held flamethrowers, swords, staves, and fetishes, and have them 'put away' on the back or hip when appropriate.
Dog
I can have a dog for a useful combat pet.
I'm ... kind of shocked this doesn't happen more in MMOs. (Although now that I'm thinking of it, GW2 has hound pets for rangers...)
Companions and mounts are fun. And you don't have to spend cash for your vehicle, you get one for free as part of advancement.
Attention
Cryptic is actually paying to NW and developing stuff.
That counts for a lot.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Champions looks like a Saturday morning cartoon, and Star Trek looks, well, like Star Trek. That's fine, but it's in maintaining the illusion that I find Neverwinter lacking. On the surface, i
hair lin3e is canted to the left, also head is too small for body.
but on the fun side,
after many complaints about the Neverwinter founder packs and how they were suppoased to be only limited time. They changed one word and are still selling them.
The new area is coming out, guess what? A new pack to buy, race, clothing,A BAG, AD and the usual rubbish.
Don't think anyone will beleive limited time this time.
yet more mounts and companions in the store. yet more people on forums complaining about Pay 2 win....
meanwhile on Champions, we see Supre man( a victim of misspelling)face of Supre- a FEMALE clothing store
OK, I'll grant you the Kubert analogy, but not the "fix." NWO looks like Saturday morning cartoons, which was what I was trying to say with the rest of my post. The characters have a detachedness to them, like the original Scooby Doo. To change my comparison of the visual style of CO to essentially the same thing kinda makes it look like you're cherry-picking my post. Granted, I was uncharacteristically verbose, but you clearly missed what I was trying to say.
It's weird, because it's usually when I've been drinking that my point is missed that way, and I was sober for that post... :biggrin:
I got your point (did I not freak out over that halfling's hideously rendered head?), I just don't agree that CO "looks like a comic book" because it doesn't. Most comics I've read have striven for more realistic appearances and proportions. They vary in their style and how close they get, but I've seen very few serious comic artists get to the Saturday morning cartoony look that CO has going.
I have no interest in even looking at NWO, especially after reading this thread.
I have no time for more MMOs and Im not fussed by stupendous graphics. I like game play and customization. So If Im not here Im playing Car Wa.. ahh.. Dark Wind - War on wheels where you make your own skins and add or share as you please. (Yes its got buggs, but its a one man show and its a bloody good game worth putting up with its faults)
CO could really benefit from a foundry. Thats the one thing Ive got from reading this. And that GW 2 has wonky heads.
did I mention you should all try out Darkwind cuz its ace.
(did I not freak out over that halfling's hideously rendered head?)
I'm really trying not to look at that halfling. It looks like Syndrome, from The Incredibles.
I'm not trying to say that CO actually looks like a comic, but I think we may be quibbling over a "generational" difference. Some of the stuff on Cartoon Network, maybe five years ago or so, looks like this, so I can grant that it looks cartoony, rather than the comic book style they were going for.
Aren't you a little tall for a halfling?
And 'bald' is new 'wild'?
I need more coffee. The initial comments were for the original image. THAT guy is my human Guardian.
(The cleric companion is in the foreground, random npcs in the background)
I posted that because the halfling's hair from previous image is not really representative of most of the hair in-game. Anyway, imagine what a CO character would look like trying for similar looks. I've done it before, and... yeah.
(Personally, I think CO faces/skin is too plasticy and needs a lot different highlight effects to soften, even going for cell shading look)
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I tried GW2,
nice to look at
spam missions, not kidding, you have effectively a pile of open missions in the zone and some set ones,
rinse and repeat... and try to dodge the bot herds.
Lingerie armour, yes well.. I finally got one of my spell casters as pair of trousers then replaced her top, which turned out to be a thin, open, wrap which I have only seen in lingerie catalogues. The males got armour and clothing.
The ranger was the most fun, skipping between zones pet hunting.
but ehh... still boring.
Okay, that's a little better, but I don't know if it's the angle or what but your human looks like he has weirdly short legs.
Yea that image looks odd. The game can do much better.
Ill admit, I was fully prepared to hate the game. Up until actually playing it. All the videos, and screenshots had me convinced I was going to hate the style.
Ive actually grown fond of it however. It has a unique look, realistic but not dull. And managing to stay out of the uncanny valley. I like how the armor and gear has a fantasy feel without looking horribly impractical, skimpy, or unwieldy.
Okay, those look alright. I'm still weirded out by that guy's halfling, though. Something about the head just didn't look... right, and it wasn't the hair.
Comments
Are you sure you don't have the renderscale set to below 1?
The guy said that of the three melee classes all of them use swords. Not that there were only three classes to use.
This right here irks me as well. I'm not asking for everything to look like an LSD trip during an episode of Rainbow Brite, but even ancient Rome was a colorful place.
There are axes for rogues.
Supposedly there is a weaponsmith profession coming that will open things up more. More variety would be nice.
ok, i never saw that, do they use unique animations or are they just a skin overlay?
Same for CO isn't it? Everything is just an overlay but same animation.
You don't lose any damage by using an overlay.
Rogues don't use swords. Swords and daggers are not synonyms
I can't say for sure, since I'm not on the computer that has the game installed, ATM. I poked at a lot of settings. I would like to say that I was methodical and hit them all, but I have no reliable recollection. I'll do a more detailed test, tonight, and take some notes as I go, but it's really not what's keeping me from playing the game.
I'm kinda with the other posters who are getting the D&D fix from other places (for me, I'm also introducing my two sons to the old box sets and 2nd ED; yes, I still have them :biggrin:). I'm OK with STO, I loke CO, but NWO just kind of misses a lot of marks, for me. It's not a failure, in my eyes, nor is it a terrible game. In a genre where there is a glut of options, I don't find anything in it to pull me away from anything I'm already playing.
I will still try the renderscale, though, and give the settings another look. The troubleshooter in me is intrigued.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Maybe you missed the part where the daggers were mentioned to be so big that they practically are short swords.
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I must have.
Actual short swords are supposed to be coming. (tm)
Let's be clear, I fault NW for a lot of things and there are many elements that are superior in CO.
But basic graphics aren't even arguably it.
(Art direction is more arguable, although there are some VERY neat environments and stylistic shifts in the game, like walking across a bridge that isn't a bridge in the icy ... Vellosk?)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Don't be hatin' Brachy weapons, those buggers are tough nuts.
...But really DnD never really would fit with such anime-inspired weaponry.
Deliciously nutritious!
My inner 12 year old is screaming to post something about this, but Biff would smack it well... :cool:
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Again, say what you will about art style, but the hair alone is significantly more detailed than the plastic hair caps CO has.
I didn't have a good CO character with medieval-style armor (and I don't care quite enough to go and make one), but CO armors are also a lot less detailed.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I'd rather have good gameplay than "fancier" textures.
Also, every single character of that class is going to wear that exact same armor, and that detracts a lot from the coolness factor.
Also, screenshot a wizard with their so-called "robes" and see if you still think it looks good.
I don't know how much clearer I have to be about my point. Yes. You're right.
The _specific complaint_ that NW's graphics are inferior in basic quality than CO's is factually in error.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
After playing the game for several hours and progressing to about level 15 or so, I was still wearing that same set of armor. I thought it may have been something I missed, but nope- everyone in the game was wearing this armor. So yeah, your armor is going to look detailed and better if they've only made 10 different pieces of it.
I'll take my less detailed, less-shiny CO options over another generic chainmail shirt.
And you're right about the hair. It's the most detailed straw I've ever seen jabbed into a plastic doll's head.
Has anyone, at any point, claimed the options and style of Neverwinter is better?
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I'm no analyst, detective, or even what could be considered an investigative genius... but I just happened to notice it was the actual name of this thread you're posting in.
But hey, Neverwinter's graphics might be 'more advanced' but it still looks like garbage to me.
To be fair, there is more then that. However, the armor does follow a predictable pattern. Below 60 there are 4 appearance brackets, about every 15 levels. When you cross into a new bracket, the armors within the set shift fairly dramatically. Even the item icon changes to reflect this.
Within each bracket there seems to be 4 main styles, with minor subtle differences between each one. And this gets further broken down with each style having a chance to have optional parts tacked on. It might be a style 1 jacket, but it has an optional hip guard, or a slightly different shoulder guard, ect.
The problem with the looks is really two fold. In an effort to keep everything stylistically the same. The differences really come off as VERY minor and easily missed. This is further compounded by having all gear of the same class always come in the same default uniform color. It reduces the games customization to something similar to a military prep school.
I can only assume this was an artistic choice. The idea being, that by keeping everything stylistically similar and in matching colors. They avoided horrible clashing "skittled" type characters. You know the type, Red armor, pink boots, green gloves, ect.
I can only imagine the rage and outcry had that option been a reality. Everything from "Its breaking my immersion" to "They are FORCING us to buy dye, just to look normal"
Had they spent a bit more time, doubled the number of style brackets, and had armor within that style also shift to another color pallet. I feel most of the complaints would go away. So while, there is variety, it really has a feel like they only did the bare minimum. That said, I do see potential here. I generally dislike games where gear decides my characters outward looks. I rarely cringe putting on new gear in NW. I at least know its not going to look terrible or out of place.
The Environment is gorgeous. That is without question. Dialing up the settings to max provides an impressive, almost cinematic vista. I say almost, because it's still not photo-real, like one would see in a summer blockbuster. That would probably make even the most powerful gaming machine go all 'splody.
The characters are still off. Even at maximum setting (just popping the slider to max, not doing any fiddling with advanced settings), the scene looks like an old Hanna Barbera cartoon. The detail on the characters is lower, and the color is different. The characters don't look like part of the environment, but something separate from it. I can go into the creator and make an image like the one posted above, but that's not what it ends up looking like in the game.
In Champs and STO, the characters (or ships/vehicles) render the same as the environment, so everything blends smoothly. There is less break in the illusion. There are definite places where I can see it as a difference in stylistic choices. In a fantasy game, you want the sense of sweeping vistas and epic tales, particularly if you're attempting to do it "in" something as venerated as Dungeons & Dragons. Champions looks like a comic book, and Star Trek looks, well, like Star Trek. That's fine, but it's in maintaining the illusion that I find Neverwinter lacking. On the surface, it's a much better looking game than DDO, which went for the same sort of visual style. (Although, I have to fault Cryptic for using the EXACT same premise of a shipwreck survivor for the character's intro into the world! Seriously!?)
"Better" or "worse" is subjective, and could arguably be seen as itchin' for a fight. As for superior or inferior? It's the same game, just with a few tweaks and a different setting. Anything else is semantics.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
But... then you can easily make an outfit that looks cool and you don't have that weird 'oh crud, I colored this armor and now I have better armor DANG IT'
Here are some examples from GW2. It strikes a nice balance between detail and artistic.
As for CO, say what you will about hair and whatnot, but the weapons look REALLY BAD. A handgun looks like cardboard boxes stuck together, and hands gripping weapons look... so clippy and clunky.
Again, I have a great love for the sheer RANGE of CO. I just wish the graphics were a little better and I had something to do.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I was merely and very specifically pointing out that NW's graphical fidelity is higher.
As for the shipwreck thing... it's even funnier than that, because Age of Conan _also_ uses 'you are a shipwrecked survivor' schtick, including starting you off with a shiv or boat oar and no armor to fight your way to the port city.
And to yet again reiterate my views to folks who have mayfly memories, I adore CO's range of options and ability to make ALMOST ANYTHING. I just wish we had Foundry to go... DO something with it, and it's a constant heartbreaker. (I also wish the graphics were a little better, but Foundry is more important)
Sigh.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
SANTA!!! Why you no gives me mah poneh last year?
Dang it.
(He does have a nice antler bow, though)
And for all its flexibility, getting certain styles in GW2 can require cleverness -- that hood is only available as a starter rogue item, which required me to create a rogue, reskin a leather common head item as the hood and mail it to my ranger to skin to one of his head items...
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I gotta give some love to Guild Wars of the Gaurdians!
I honestly don't recall the system in GW1, but I do recall finding bottles of dye and being able to apply them to my clothing/armor. I got board with the original around level 17, and haven't started it back up in more than a year. I think the last time I did, it was only for a few minutes before logging off out of lack of interest. I never did bother with any of the other material, beyond the original, unexpanded game, so maybe I'm selling it short, but I can't bring myself to spend money to find out. Sorry.
As for the clipping issue, that's had whole threads dedicated to it. I personally haven't noticed anything, but others have pointed out subtle improvements to textures, here and there. Something like an object held in a moving hand is slightly more difficult, but I'm sure we'll get there. The new team has managed to put out new content that, so far, has managed to avoid any major complaints. All I have seen is grumbling about rewards and lack of permanence. It's at least a step in the right direction.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Not to try and take sides here....but NW's graphics are basically these. And what's found in STO. So if they look like garbage...by extension...these should too.
They do to me. All three games have the same face coupled with the odd proportions thing going on.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Then again, this is all subjective anyways...
I was looking up which game came first, DDO or AoC, but I realized that this one is less a lack of originality. NWO came out years after those, while they came out comparatively close to each other. Also, Gygax, Arneson, and company leaned heavily on Robert Howard, as well as Tolkein, in designing the mechanics and world of the original game. OK, barbarians weren't in the original game, but they were introduced well before 2nd Ed.
I'm not saying that Cryptic has crap writers for not being original. They've set themselves up as the adaptation studio, since all but City of Heroes was based on someone else's IP, though it could be argued that CoH was an attempt at Champions Online before they had the IP, since the bulk of the creative team had spent a lot of time playing the PnP game before coming to Cryptic. I guess there are just still a lot of things about NWO that feel unfinished. The graphics is the biggest offender, for me, but there are a lot of subtle rough edges. Of course, this is the first game I've played "since beta," so I'm not holding that against it. I just take issue with the assertion put forth in the OP, mostly on that ground.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
For me, negatives of NW:
Lack of customization
Ok, sure, it's not going to have the range of 'frog-headed demon robots' that CO can have, but even if you look at other games, NW compares somewhat poorly.
When you look at character abilities rather than graphics... NW is _terrible_. I mean, jaw-droppingly godawful.
Pick a class, you can use ONE kind of weapon, in one particular way. You have a LITTLE choice of encounter/daily/etc. abilities, so it's not quite 'Gauntlet' or something, but ... wow.
And that's comparing to, say, Guild Wars 2, where each class gets 3-4 weapons plus oodles of other varying abilities/specials.
Compare to DDO... holy spit.
In DDO, I can be an archer fighter who sometimes uses a sword and shield and has Religion skill because at one point he was thinking of becoming a cleric.
Content
This is somewhat of a neutral thing... but NW has very little content. It's really NICE content, but... man, you can blow through it pretty fast. I don't know how well the dungeons are, because I kept outleveling them.
'Sidekicking'
This game could really use it, though I guess they expect everyone to hit 60 pretty fast.
Monetization
After the refreshing nature of STO, which sweet-talks my wallet open, NW is unpleasant. Respecs, mounts, companions... meh.
Maybe after the game matures it'll be less annoying, but right now it feels like being eyed up like a side of beef in a disreputable used car lot.
Granted, CO is hardly much better, but STO spoiled me.
Combat flow
I give Cryptic points for trying something rather unconventional with targeting and rooting while casting. It gives a tactical element MMOs often lack, and a rhythm of combat. Dance, baby!
Thing is, ultimately... it's annoying as heck. It works, I just doesn't enjoy it.
Positives
Foundry
I'm sure you are shocked to see this. yep. Foundry.
When you are done with doing the same content over and over and over, when you want to be creative with your Nemesis or backstory... you have FOUNDRY. Create worlds, plots, amazing stuff.
There are missions I've played made by players that are FAR better than anything Cryptic ever put out. And it's brilliant of them to yoke that energy.
NW is going to live or die by Foundry, because the rest of the game isn't good enough.
Hopefully Cryptic knows this.
Graphics
I DO like the style of NW, at least compared to CO. I like the detail, the items look weighty and 'real,' and the environments are sometimes amazing.
I'm not sure why CO gets a pass for lumpy plastic hair because it's 'like a comic book' while NW doesn't for being D&D.
And while one could excuse CO's bad weapon models for 'well, they try to do a lot of different things,' I will again point to GW2 which manages to do a decent job with held flamethrowers, swords, staves, and fetishes, and have them 'put away' on the back or hip when appropriate.
Dog
I can have a dog for a useful combat pet.
I'm ... kind of shocked this doesn't happen more in MMOs. (Although now that I'm thinking of it, GW2 has hound pets for rangers...)
Companions and mounts are fun. And you don't have to spend cash for your vehicle, you get one for free as part of advancement.
Attention
Cryptic is actually paying to NW and developing stuff.
That counts for a lot.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Dear god, what is wrong with his head?
Fixed that for you. Joe Kubert CO is not.
but on the fun side,
after many complaints about the Neverwinter founder packs and how they were suppoased to be only limited time. They changed one word and are still selling them.
The new area is coming out, guess what? A new pack to buy, race, clothing,A BAG, AD and the usual rubbish.
Don't think anyone will beleive limited time this time.
yet more mounts and companions in the store. yet more people on forums complaining about Pay 2 win....
meanwhile on Champions, we see Supre man( a victim of misspelling)face of Supre- a FEMALE clothing store
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OK, I'll grant you the Kubert analogy, but not the "fix." NWO looks like Saturday morning cartoons, which was what I was trying to say with the rest of my post. The characters have a detachedness to them, like the original Scooby Doo. To change my comparison of the visual style of CO to essentially the same thing kinda makes it look like you're cherry-picking my post. Granted, I was uncharacteristically verbose, but you clearly missed what I was trying to say.
It's weird, because it's usually when I've been drinking that my point is missed that way, and I was sober for that post... :biggrin:
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
I have no time for more MMOs and Im not fussed by stupendous graphics. I like game play and customization. So If Im not here Im playing Car Wa.. ahh.. Dark Wind - War on wheels where you make your own skins and add or share as you please. (Yes its got buggs, but its a one man show and its a bloody good game worth putting up with its faults)
CO could really benefit from a foundry. Thats the one thing Ive got from reading this. And that GW 2 has wonky heads.
did I mention you should all try out Darkwind cuz its ace.
I'm really trying not to look at that halfling. It looks like Syndrome, from The Incredibles.
I'm not trying to say that CO actually looks like a comic, but I think we may be quibbling over a "generational" difference. Some of the stuff on Cartoon Network, maybe five years ago or so, looks like this, so I can grant that it looks cartoony, rather than the comic book style they were going for.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
But if Foundry isn't 99% of why you are playing the game and you want a good fantasy game, go play GW2.
(Seriously, other than having separate shards, they do just about everything amazingly right. And the price is awesome)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1078710_10200919781730743_632418649_o.jpg
(I'll note that I made him ... wide, like that, on purpose)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I'll play what I enjoy. Tera... meh.
GW2 is well-designed and run by active, communicating, eager, cool devs.
It's not like I'm supporting a political regime, it's a game.
(If CO had Foundry, you wouldn't be able to pry me off with a crowbar, despite however I felt about past 'injustices')
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I encourage people to get an external hard-drive, install every mmo you want to play even remotely, and then just have mmo-ADHD.
PLAY ALL THE GAMES!
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Aren't you a little tall for a halfling?
And 'bald' is new 'wild'?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I need more coffee. The initial comments were for the original image. THAT guy is my human Guardian.
(The cleric companion is in the foreground, random npcs in the background)
I posted that because the halfling's hair from previous image is not really representative of most of the hair in-game. Anyway, imagine what a CO character would look like trying for similar looks. I've done it before, and... yeah.
(Personally, I think CO faces/skin is too plasticy and needs a lot different highlight effects to soften, even going for cell shading look)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
nice to look at
spam missions, not kidding, you have effectively a pile of open missions in the zone and some set ones,
rinse and repeat... and try to dodge the bot herds.
Lingerie armour, yes well.. I finally got one of my spell casters as pair of trousers then replaced her top, which turned out to be a thin, open, wrap which I have only seen in lingerie catalogues. The males got armour and clothing.
The ranger was the most fun, skipping between zones pet hunting.
but ehh... still boring.
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Okay, that's a little better, but I don't know if it's the angle or what but your human looks like he has weirdly short legs.
A doughy middle-aged bald gorilla.
With glasses.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Yea that image looks odd. The game can do much better.
Ill admit, I was fully prepared to hate the game. Up until actually playing it. All the videos, and screenshots had me convinced I was going to hate the style.
Ive actually grown fond of it however. It has a unique look, realistic but not dull. And managing to stay out of the uncanny valley. I like how the armor and gear has a fantasy feel without looking horribly impractical, skimpy, or unwieldy.