Energy Builders. Why do they even have ranks?

xcaligax · July 2013

Think about it. Ranking them practically does nothing but give more visual effects. If it were up to me, I would simply make Energy builders rank up to rank 2 at level 20, and rank 3 at level 40. Who actually ranks up these? It's practically the same as not using your points, or throwing them away. Thoughts?

lucysneakymynx · July 2013

OMG Stop saying things that make sense! STAHP!

*bans Caliga from chat for 53 hours*

^_~

rianfrost · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

Think about it. Ranking them practically does nothing but give more visual effects. If it were up to me, I would simply make Energy builders rank up to rank 2 at level 20, and rank 3 at level 40. Who actually ranks up these? It's practically the same as not using your points, or throwing them away. Thoughts?

i like this idea actually, i was tempted to rank up my sorcery energy builder to get the cool glyphs, but that would wind up hurting more reliable utility powers.

flamingbunnyman · July 2013

I ranked up my EB on my first character, when I was low level and the gap between it and my T0 wasn't as obvious.

I could see ranking Wrist Bolter as worthwhile, IF you're using Automated Assault AND have the points to spare. Otherwise, I don't see a point unless you really suck at energy management, and need the tiny increase.

ashensnow · July 2013

I know that some people rank their EBs for the greater energy gain.

thebuckeye · July 2013

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

I could see ranking Wrist Bolter as worthwhile, IF you're using Automated Assault AND have the points to spare. Otherwise, I don't see a point unless you really suck at energy management, and need the tiny increase.

That right there...When I make a 3 toggle Power Armor character, that's the set up I use for Leveling.

Wrist Bolters, Mini-Gun, Micro-Munitions....with Endurance Primary for the Kickback spec, Recovery and Intelligence as Secondaries while Talent and Gearing for Dex and Ego. I rank the Bolters to 3 with the Automated Assault and Mini-Gun at R2 and the U234 advantage and Micro-Munitions taken to R3. Its a very easy and reliable Power Armor build to set up and to help familiarize yourself with the Toggle Mechanic behind Power Armor...

Later on I'll respec out of the Bolters when I've gotten better Energy Management gear and go with depending on if I'm going for a Ballistic Barrage style or a Classic build I'll either take Conc Beams or Tactical Missiles for my Hand Slot...

crypticbuxom · July 2013

If the energy boost between ranks really made a difference that would be the only reason to use them. I never knew about the visual difference between ranks until about 5 months ago. I still don't care enough to actually see them.

jennymachx · July 2013

I ranked my Power Bolt up a level so that it wouldn't look so "puny".

lucysneakymynx · July 2013

jennymachx wrote: »

I ranked my Power Bolt up a level so that it wouldn't look so "puny".

See, I knew you'd say something sensible. :P

Yeah, the ranks are great for concept characters.

roughbearmattach · July 2013

If you have Endurance as a superstat, you can reliably use your EB as your "energy unlock". I have a toon with a max energy of nearly 600.

One shot of the EB gives 100 energy.

Still, I agree that the ranks don't do enough for most toons. I would fold the increased EB damage in with the various advantages the EBs have.

forrksakesexco · July 2013

Simple - it's there so noobs can make a classic mistake.
Or perhaps more plausibly EB's have some advantages which means you need the option to spend some points on em and therefore had to be treated as regular powers.
Changing things now would I suspect be quite tricky on the coding front and would require dev hours that could be better spent elsewhere.

itsbrou · July 2013

Ranking your EB is another path towards energy management when you don't want an unlock, REC stacking, or other secondary effect. It's an option for someone out there.

cybersoldier1981 · July 2013

My EB is a sword, and I'm munitions.

So I can say in RP 'I have a sword'.

ashensnow · July 2013

cybersoldier1981 wrote: »

My EB is a sword, and I'm munitions.

So I can say in RP 'I have a sword'.

LOL.

Ive done the same. And the reverse.

jaguar40 · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

Think about it. Ranking them practically does nothing but give more visual effects. If it were up to me, I would simply make Energy builders rank up to rank 2 at level 20, and rank 3 at level 40. Who actually ranks up these? It's practically the same as not using your points, or throwing them away. Thoughts?

I rank them up usually when I have nothing to spend them on and probably would have thrown them away otherwise.

For the energy gain, well some of my toons dont crit often nor have ton of intelligence stat nor causes bleeds or dodge often. In those cases sometimes I do rank up the EB for more energy gained per hit, but even then that stems from just having extra points that I nothing better to do with.

rugrothrumbor · July 2013

Rank 2 and rank 3 damage should be improved enough that it would be more noticable.

Maybe give them advantages that would help you keep toggle stacks up as well. Like Clobber's Onslaught.

smoochan · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

Think about it. Ranking them practically does nothing but give more visual effects. If it were up to me, I would simply make Energy builders rank up to rank 2 at level 20, and rank 3 at level 40. Who actually ranks up these? It's practically the same as not using your points, or throwing them away. Thoughts?

I agree, energy builder ranks are having a serious negative effect on the game. Why practically everything I do is ruined on a daily basis because energy builders can be ranked up. Every time I fail an alert, I know it's because energy builders can be ranked up. Every costume part combination that I'm not allowed to make is unallowable due to the presence of energy builder ranks. They can't up the challenge level in the game because then everybody would be required to rank up their energy builders, which would ruin any chance at making a theme. Didn't get what I wanted out of a lockbox? EB ranks. Can't afford yet another full retcon? EB ranks. EB ranks? EB ranks.

ENERGY BUILDER RANKS! HOW DARE YOU CRYPWE! HOOOOW DAAAAARE YOOOOOOUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!

You realize they did this for the express purpose of ruining pvp, right?

avianos · July 2013

I facepalm on the new players who actually RANK to RANK 3 their Energy Builder!
Two of my friends did that, they said that they did it to increase damage!
I had to make them understand that their Energy Build exists ONLY to Generate Energy and possible with the Right
Advantage do other stuff (based on the EB)! But it's not worth Ranking to 3 at all
The REAL damage is dealt by the other Powers, especially on the Damage Spikes moves!

I have never ranked them up, they are waste of Points

smoochan · July 2013

avianos wrote: »

I facepalm on the new players who actually RANK to RANK 3 their Energy Builder!
Two of my friends did that, they said that they did it to increase damage!
I had to make them understand that their Energy Build exists ONLY to Generate Energy and possible with the Right
Advantage do other stuff (based on the EB)! But it's not worth Ranking to 3 at all
The REAL damage is dealt by the other Powers, especially on the Damage Spikes moves!

I have never ranked them up, they are waste of Points

I'm honestly not sure how that happens. If we had advantage points when our only power was our energy builder, then I could understand... but by the point that we have advantage points, we allready have other powers. I guess I just don't get why someone would see this:

-Whimpy Shot: Builds energy and does 2 whole damage!
-Murder Stab: Does 1000 damage.

And think "...yeah.... yeah that 2 damage one needs to be ranked up".

The ONLY thing I can imagine is that that early on some people are still very dependent on their energy builder for all of their energy management, and are unaware that immensely better options are right around the corner. I mean hey, if you were to take all the other ways to get energy out of the game, then ranking up your energy builder might actually be a good idea.

Personally I would love to see them buff the energy builder ranks, so that ranking them up would actually create a very noticeable increase in the amount of energy coming in, just to have yet another option for how to build our characters. Willing to deal with the restrictions of using your buffed up energy builder to generate your energy? Grats, you just opened up another power slot

flyingfinn · July 2013

There was a time long ago when it didn't take 9 hours to level up to 40 with infinite energy.
So you had to rely on your Eb.
giggity

When i rank, i rank for the looks.

theravenforce · July 2013

I would like your proposal actually, regarding the auto ranking of energy builders.

The visual FX tend to go to waste on energy builders and some of them look very nice actually.

If we had energy builders rank up automatically without it impacting our 36 advantage points that would be a good idea, however...it may lockout Energy Builder advantages, such as

Force Bolts - Energy Refraction

Psi Lash - Psychic Reverberation

etc

So unless all EB advantages became 1 pointers it would be a bit bad. Unless Energy builders had X/6 instead of X/5, that way we could still purchase advantages if need be.

But as others have said, it can be used to increase energy gain, provide an alternate energy management path or simply be there for utility purposes (like RP or cosmetic FX).

Personally I have never ranked up an energy builder beyond rank 1, never really seen the need to..

chaoswolf820 · July 2013

forrksakesexco wrote: »

Simple - it's there so noobs can make a classic mistake.

Getting involved in a land war in Asia?

jonsills · July 2013

forrksakesexco wrote: »

Simple - it's there so noobs can make a classic mistake.

Well, after all, there has to be some excuse for the uberleet to sneer at the noobs...

gamakyte · July 2013

I use em, its called fun!

lucysneakymynx · July 2013

...because giving players maxed out EB and removing the ranks makes too much sense. :punishes Caliga somehow: Smooches keeps PvE-ing in every hero gamer's Cheerios. Less cardboard taste. I tell mummy!

smoochan · July 2013

jonsills wrote: »

Well, after all, there has to be some excuse for the uberleet to sneer at the noobs...

This ^

How else am I supposed to feel superior to other people in this game? Leering and jeering at people for not knowing everything their first day playing the game is the only real opportunity to do that here.

Well, other than coming on the forums and claiming that something I did in game makes me some sort of predator-of-the-masses... but that's just silly.

gamakyte wrote: »

I use em, its called fun!

I can't have fun with a power unless it does a minimum of 4000 dps. If the numbers popping up above the thing I'm hitting aren't huge, how will I know I'm having fun? I have to write something on the spread sheet... can't very well write "Looks neat, made me giggle".

lucysneakymynx · July 2013

Moar Cheerios. I giv yew munni ^_^

sistersilicon · July 2013

I have no problem with EB ranks being part of the advantage point budget, especially for toons that don't have END, REC, or INT superstats.

If you want to move adv points out of useless slots, let's talk Travel Powers. Instead of ranks, let the top speed of the primary TP scale on a curve by level, from R1 at level 6 to R3 at level 40. If the TP has effect changes at ranks 2 and 3, apply them at, say, levels 20 and 35. And to make up for legacy crafted travel power devices no longer providing 2 "bonus" adv points (since everybody gets them now), nudge up their top speed.

bluhman · July 2013

Heck, I think in general that rank-ups of low tier moves should be more effective (I.E. the damage gap between R3 Force Bolts, Force Blast, and Force Cascade becomes smaller than the damage gap between R1 Force Bolts, Force Blast, and Force Cascade). The upper-level powers would still end up more powerful, though that sort of does bring up the issue of, if that were the case, would low-level characters ever cross over to using the higher-tier skills if their lower tier ones already work well?

The whole power-armor synnergy with wrist bolters totally makes sense. But in general, EB ranks make a paradox: ranking them up causes them to generate more energy, and do more damage - yet, you'd only want them doing more damage if you had to rely on them for extended periods of time, and because you're ranking them up, you have to use them less, since they grant you more energy. Certainly doesn't help that most toggle forms and on-next-hit skills don't actively encourage the use of EB's. If there was like, some kind of form that could utilize it perhaps.

theravenforce · July 2013

bluhman wrote: »

Certainly doesn't help that most toggle forms and on-next-hit skills don't actively encourage the use of EB's. If there was like, some kind of form that could utilize it perhaps.

Hehe,

[Form of The Energy Master] - You have utilized the ability to rank up your energy builder powers and as a result, whilst the form is active you can increase your max energy and energy equilibrium by XX%. You also can reduce the cost of your powers by XX%. In addition you no longer generate less energy using your energy builders if your attacks are dodged. Increases your damage by half of your max energy percentage.

This scales with your Energy Builder Rank.

:biggrin:

bluhman · July 2013

I was thinking of something more to the effect of like:

Tension - Builds tension stacks over time, at a rate of 1 stack every 3 seconds.This greatly boosts all damage (~12% softcap). Whenever the user uses a non-energy-builder attack, all Tension stacks are used up to boost the damage. Scales off of whichever is higher of Intelligence or Endurance.
Ranking this up will change the maximum number of stacks that Tension can build to. At rank 1, it can only go up to 6 stacks. At 2, this is upped to 7, and at 3, upped to 8.

chalupaoffury · July 2013

... My tk blade character can crit for 1500 with her energy builder. 1000 on your average player. Not all of em are useless.

jorifice1 · July 2013

In a LOT of games out there what we would call an E.B. would be the Primary Attack for the Toon for the ENTIRE GAME. Think At Wills in N.W. You absolutely HAVE to rank these things up before everything else because they account for 90% of the attacks you make. It takes a while to really sink in that, in Champs, they really ARE just for building Energy.
Also, as Finn mentioned, way, way back in the Dawn Of Time when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth you did need to use your Energy Builder a LOT more than you do now, making it practical to rank it up.

chalupaoffury · July 2013

gradii wrote: »

pray tell HOW did you do that? my tk blade toon crits for 400-550 max with EB.

Legion gear, really stacked on crits and severity, r8 mods. To be fair, my concept for her was actually that I wanted her to hit so hard that even her energy builder came off as a legitimate attack.

theravenforce · July 2013

chalupaoffury wrote: »

... My tk blade character can crit for 1500 with her energy builder. 1000 on your average player. Not all of em are useless.

Yeah, true, some eb's I've used hit for that range as well, some of them are quite potent xD

xcaligax · July 2013

gradii wrote: »

IMO legion gear was a mistake. lockboxes in general, but making legion gear lockbox only was a massive step towards P2W. I dont care that you can buy it on AH, who has that kinda g? put it up for 80 or so SCR and then we're talking.

I disagree there. If they do that, then you might as well just get rid of heroic gear and have legion gear fully replace it. Anyway that's off topic. Ranking EBs is pointless, so much so that the actual ranks should just be replaced with advantages.

theravenforce · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

I disagree there. If they do that, then you might as well just get rid of heroic gear and have legion gear fully replace it.

Agreed, Legion Gear is attainable through farming for G or other means.

monaahiru · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

I disagree there. If they do that, then you might as well just get rid of heroic gear and have legion gear fully replace it. Anyway that's off topic. Ranking EBs is pointless, so much so that the actual ranks should just be replaced with advantages.

theravenforce wrote: »

Agreed, Legion Gear is attainable through farming for G or other means.

Yup. Don't dream so much about Legion Gear, or you will make BIG MISTAKE.
Spend G or Zen or time or what ever won't come back after 'Bound'.

isuobae · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

Think about it. Ranking them practically does nothing but give more visual effects. If it were up to me, I would simply make Energy builders rank up to rank 2 at level 20, and rank 3 at level 40. Who actually ranks up these? It's practically the same as not using your points, or throwing them away. Thoughts?

Incorrect.
Ranking them tricks ******* like me that are new to the game into buying a retcon when they realize that they are useless when they hit 40:O

scorpagor · July 2013

isuobae wrote: »

Incorrect.
Ranking them tricks ******* like me that are new to the game into buying a retcon when they realize that they are useless when they hit 40:O

tancrediiv · July 2013

xcaligax wrote: »

Think about it. Ranking them practically does nothing but give more visual effects. If it were up to me, I would simply make Energy builders rank up to rank 2 at level 20, and rank 3 at level 40. Who actually ranks up these? It's practically the same as not using your points, or throwing them away. Thoughts?

' been saying this for many years.

smoochan · July 2013

gradii wrote: »

IMO legion gear was a mistake. lockboxes in general, but making legion gear lockbox only was a massive step towards P2W. I dont care that you can buy it on AH, who has that kinda g? put it up for 80 or so SCR and then we're talking.

Okay... can you explain one thing to me?

Pay 2 win what? ....like... what are you paying to win at?

theravenforce · July 2013

smoochan wrote: »

Okay... can you explain one thing to me?

Pay 2 win what? ....like... what are you paying to win at?

:biggrin:

To win at l33t PvP? lmao. :biggrin:

drgmstr · July 2013

After reading this, my first impression was: "Oh geeze...if Cryptic reads this they may make E.B. something along the line of "you must have X rank on your E.B. to use Y attack"...*facepalms*

jonsills · July 2013

drgmstr wrote: »

...if Cryptic reads this...

Let's be honest - there's not much danger of that. <sad smile>

blumoon8 · July 2013

jonsills wrote: »

Let's be honest - there's not much danger of that. <sad smile>

Sad smile makes me sad

But it's true. For everything. Ever. *goes into a corner and stares at the floor*

I remember that I actually used to rank my EB up... also both travel powers to rank 3. It was only between after I played an AT and looked at one of my toon's builds heavily after a retcon that something clicked and I was like, Dafuq was I doing this entire time. To answer your question, at that point I had 2-3 40s. :l

In short,

allthebuckets · July 2013

For the looks ... that's it.

If you could get the R2 or R3 looks for say, a 0-point advantage, that'd be great, otherwise the damage boost needs to be noticeable.

Being the vain person that I am, I demand that the ability i'm going to probably use the most (or see a lot of) look pleasing to my eye. As it stands, most R1 energy builders look pathetic. Case in point: Power Bolts. R1 power bolts is just shining a laser pointer at the enemies eyes, whereas higher ranks actually look like they might sting a bit.

But overall, yeah, we shouldn't be paying advantage points for a cosmetic upgrade. After all, Giant Growth is a free advantage and does nothing other than obscure everyone's view.

Energy Builders. Why do they even have ranks?

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