Why should I more or less gimp myself in support role, laden down with support/CC gear if Mr. or Miss TelepathyDoTDPS, can achieve better numbers and the same level of control debuffing with ranged role, crit gear, the same passive as me and perhaps more HP?
Honestly, I've been wondering about the answer to this one for months now. There have been multiple people in these discussions who seem to not only wish to pidgeon-hole self-gimp themselves into specified AT-like roles...but also wish to force everyone else into the same position. I, personally, support multiple synergy options and actual choices for a greater overall versatility in what is offered when looking at all the powersets. It allows for greater freedom, variety, and more functional concepts. BTW, let's not assume for a second I think CO is even remotely close to this at the momment but, as they say, "The journey of a thousand steps...."
Also(too many posts to quote) where are these hoards of multiple telepath teams? Honestly, unless I was specifically trying to make a telepath team for testing, the most I've EVER come accross in a team was 2 people with myself being one of them. I've teamed with Cryone, Kaiserin, Sang, Jasin, and some other people as well as the occasional random Mind<giggles> in alerts and such. I've never randomly encountered more than 1 other telepath in a team. So while it's kinda cute to consider balancing somewhat from the perspective of multiple telepaths...what's the point of this being a reoccurring driving central point? It "could" happen...but seriously...it's most likely not going to happen so what's the big deal?
As I currently see it the only issue on live right this moment with having multiple telepaths on a team is if they all have TK Maelstrom and there are some destructable objects around...which could slideshow everyone in range and potentially knock most of those people offline....but I can almost do this alone in the alert "A Stitch in Time." Sadly, I don't even remotely think this is on the blocks to be looked at or repaired.
Lastly, the rolling hatred for CoS. Sure it's not ideal. Sure it's not great but it can be made to work and I, personally, believe that it's multi-role versatility is one of it's very few saving graces at this point. Again, for me, it comes down to multi-synergy variables and the ability to do more than build some glorified AT. Some people say they don't want to feel useless in "Encounter X" and that's fine and dandy...so set yourself up to run in multiple builds. Oh look, a passive that lets you do that if you build around it. Again, the problem is where exactly?
Ok, I lied...4 points. At the present CO has roughly 1.5Devs(Prove me wrong Cryptic North People, I dare you...please...pretty please). 1 Dev(Team Lordgar) working on some costume repairs and the new "Not-TRON" stuff and .5Devs(Crush when he has free time from NW work) working on these powers. At this point I, personally, believe we're getting to the end of the road on this. The point where all this debate, math, and such is all but meaningless. Some changes were made. Some changes were not made. Unless I'm wrong(I welcome this btw) it's all but time to take a deep breath, close our eyes, and wait for the impact wave to hit Live. Look on the bright side. Now we have some new powers to do the same content over and over with again. Yes, that's the bright side...
Out of pure curiosity, has anyone actually tried tanking with CoS yet? Is it even possible? That and the whole Melee Damage Role I don't really understand. Hybrid/Ranged/and Support sure.
...Also(too many posts to quote) where are these hoards of multiple telepath teams? Honestly, unless I was specifically trying to make a telepath team for testing, the most I've EVER come accross in a team was 2 people with myself being one of them. I've teamed with Cryone, Kaiserin, Sang, Jasin, and some other people as well as the occasional random Mind<giggles> in alerts and such. I've never randomly encountered more than 1 other telepath in a team. So while it's kinda cute to consider balancing somewhat from the perspective of multiple telepaths...what's the point of this being a reoccurring driving central point? It "could" happen...but seriously...it's most likely not going to happen so what's the big deal? ...
Isn't balance making sure the top end and the bottom end aren't too far apart? Just because something isn't likely (and with players that's never a safe bet if it's powerful) does not mean it shouldn't be taken into account. Long story short, because 5x Eruptions w/ Revitalize.
...Lastly, the rolling hatred for CoS. Sure it's not ideal. Sure it's not great but it can be made to work and I, personally, believe that it's multi-role versatility is one of it's very few saving graces at this point. Again, for me, it comes down to multi-synergy variables and the ability to do more than build some glorified AT. Some people say they don't want to feel useless in "Encounter X" and that's fine and dandy...so set yourself up to run in multiple builds. Oh look, a passive that lets you do that if you build around it. Again, the problem is where exactly? ...
I did a full write up on CoS earlier and I'm feeling lazy so here's the cliffnotes version.
-The damage bonus sucks because it's ego DoT damage only and said damage bonus number is the same as other energy form passives.
-The resist reduction is overshadowed by mods and specs (in most PvE cases) since it lowers resistances by a percentage instead of a flat number.
-The aggression stealth is useless when you need it most, vs tough mobs.
-The threat reduction might be useful if you're in Hybrid role, but the telepathy DoTs aren't exactly damage powerhouses so there's a good chance you wouldn't have aggro anyway.
In my opinion CoS is *not* as case of "greater than the sum of the parts".
I'm also not seeing the versatility you see. It's a generic energy form offensive passive, except it's got bad bonuses. You won't be tanking or using it in melee dps role. That leaves ranged dps, support or hybrid. Which means to make a versatile build you make a support character sporting varying degrees of damage/support depending on the current role. At that point I'd rather pick an offensive or support passive since the more unique bonuses from them make up for the lack of being able to use them in a 3rd role.
I really don't get the CoS hate. I think it's nice to have a unique passive like this, that can be used in any role.
CoS doesn't completely stop you from getting aggro and I can't see how in the world it would be abused in PvP.. its just too squishy a passive.
For example, my ranged munitions toon with Pestilence -- does lots of damage. But guess what -- he squishy as all get out. If not teamed with someone that can hold aggro and keep it off me.. he dies FREQUENTLY. I don't see this amazingly OP advantage in CoS everyone keeps bringing up.
Think about it from this perspective which not only myself but Jaybezz has also tried to make other people see.
INT Primary + Detect Vulnerability + CoS (granting extra 30% penetration on top of INT penetration) + CoS passive bonuses + Manipulator/Concentration + Ranged Role.
So you have penetration, upon penetration upon the other bonuses plus a role which increases the base damage on ranged abilities. <--what part of that isnt too OP for ranged?
If people are wanting penetration to their DoT values alongside wanting to run ranged Ego, then oh look, Ego Form with INT primary + Detect Vulnerability = Penetration to all damage including your Ego DoTs.
I don't see why the mold should be broken and allow a multi role passive that hardly anyone is going to use because people are pointing out issues with it.
10 months ago, CoS was basically ready for LIVE, it was Support/Hybrid and NO ONE had an issue with it, if they did, Ego Form was waiting for them just around the corner and guess what, it still is.
I do not see why such a mechanic should be introduced into CO. Are they hoping to expand upon this mechanic by allowing other passives to be multi role passives? Not likely. So why on Earth allow or even think about putting such a passive on LIVE? Anything outside the conventional order of dual role passives is going to be an issue.
Think of it as a "saving grace" for these powers if you will, but as far as I am concerned it's a bad move. Why it had to be changed from 10 months ago when it was great, I am not sure.
Honestly, I've been wondering about the answer to this one for months now. There have been multiple people in these discussions who seem to not only wish to pidgeon-hole self-gimp themselves into specified AT-like roles...but also wish to force everyone else into the same position. I, personally, support multiple synergy options and actual choices for a greater overall versatility in what is offered when looking at all the powersets. It allows for greater freedom, variety, and more functional concepts. BTW, let's not assume for a second I think CO is even remotely close to this at the momment but, as they say, "The journey of a thousand steps...."
What I wish, is to allow myself to play a toon of mine which I have been waiting to play with for almost an entire YEAR after going from Silver Status to LTS on the premise that these powers were going to be my "saving grace" as regards Telepathy. So far the situation has gone from: "Great! to Wow...that bad huh?"
Unless they are planning to extend this multi role deal to other passives, I do not see how this will not cause an issue. Why is that so difficult to understand? We have a system for passives in place, why break it?
Also(too many posts to quote) where are these hoards of multiple telepath teams? Honestly, unless I was specifically trying to make a telepath team for testing, the most I've EVER come accross in a team was 2 people with myself being one of them. I've teamed with Cryone, Kaiserin, Sang, Jasin, and some other people as well as the occasional random Mind<giggles> in alerts and such. I've never randomly encountered more than 1 other telepath in a team. So while it's kinda cute to consider balancing somewhat from the perspective of multiple telepaths...what's the point of this being a reoccurring driving central point? It "could" happen...but seriously...it's most likely not going to happen so what's the big deal?
There in lies the sad truth. Where there can be multiple 2GM builds in a group, you'll NEVER ever see a multiple Telepath Group unless you are all Mind AT's or FF Telepaths who found each other. With the current iteration of the powers, a multiple team of telepaths would be counterproductive; Debuffs do not currently stack past 4 so if I build up 4 stacks, another telepath would be simply building up the other primary effects and constantly refreshing the four stacks. Which is the same job as I can currently do ALONE. So in a team of 3 telepaths and 1 DPS and 1 Tank. One of the Telepaths with the fastest CD on DoTs can spam for the debuffs, the other two will be refreshing, not actively contributing to the debuffing of a foe, doing the same as that 1 telepath would be doing. THAT is one of the reasons multiple Telepaths are bad, poor stacking debuff structure and then there is the active granting of CC resistance stacks when you "accidentally" press Psi Lash on a slept target so they insta break out. Another reason not to team.
Lastly, the rolling hatred for CoS. Sure it's not ideal. Sure it's not great but it can be made to work and I, personally, believe that it's multi-role versatility is one of it's very few saving graces at this point. Again, for me, it comes down to multi-synergy variables and the ability to do more than build some glorified AT. Some people say they don't want to feel useless in "Encounter X" and that's fine and dandy...so set yourself up to run in multiple builds. Oh look, a passive that lets you do that if you build around it. Again, the problem is where exactly?
See my above reply to riveroceans post and you'll see (hopefully) why I have an issue with CoS being multi role. But to put it simply, what benefit do I gain from being CC Support with CoS over someone with concentration, same DoTs, CoS, more HP and higher damage in Ranged Role? At this point in time, nothing what so ever. If you consider the ranged going INT primary, their CD's on the DoTs will be quicker than mine, meaning they spam more often and have the same level of control as the "15%" and the "6%" are not affected by Manipulator. Therefore I gain nothing.
All I am looking for is to be useful, not a dead weight on a team. I want to be able to team up with my friends in game on my main character without them breaking my control powers so easily or me breaking theirs (if fellow telepaths). I would like to be rewarded for my effort towards Crowd Control game play style, so far I have been reduced to DPS, which has the ability to negate my controlling powers and still HEALS MY ENEMIES IN PVP.
If you can try to imagine how I feel, knowing that going LTS so far has not exactly panned out in my favor when it could have. I've been deprived my main char for almost a year, and although people may not want to acknowledge it, there have been additions and changes this year which I had fun doing on my other toons, but I wasn't allowed to on my main. And when finally these powers are worked on, they are pretty much the definition of "weak sauce control". Sob Story I know, but that's how I feel, I feel as if I've spent alot and been given the equivalent of gruel.
So why not treat the paralyze from Mental Storm as an interrupt? Charge it part way and it's a guaranteed "interrupt"! Plus unlike all the real interrupts, paralyzes have spec options to debuff when the target is immune. I know you know how useless Ego Sleep is as a control power in teams too. Even Mental Storm comes out on top there.
#Interruptstrivializegameplay :rolleyes:
On a serious note I wouldn't mind if Mental Storm was an interrupt on charging over 1 sec, and stun on tap and paralyze on full charge.
Considering the charge speed and cooldown timer debuffs wouldn't mean anything if the mob didn't fight back... I am. That 0.12 sec is probably closer to 0.3 sec to 0.375 sec given most mobs have a charge time of 2 to 2.5 seconds. Don't forget the 15% increased cooldown timers due too. That can mean several seconds more downtime on the longer heavy hitting powers....Because Mr or Ms TelepathyDoTDPS won't have 100% uptime on the debuffs like you will since you specced controls.
I fought another player with these powers. They increased Mind Break from 1.5 sec charge time to 1.72 charge time an increase of 0.22 sec. And increased Masterful Dodge recharge time by 4 seconds. Which was the exact same increase to recharge/charge time, I, a fully specced control build gave him. I fail to see how that is fantastic, if it doesnt do much to a player, what on earth is it going to do to a boss? I think what needs to be done is to test what happens control wise to a boss using these powers. On Firewing he was still a pain monster of a boss, but less people died with the inflated amount debuffs which were increased by 1000%, regardless, people still died, so myself and other CC users failed to assist well enough with inflated numbers. Now deflated and "WAI" I would NOT want to see what the fight would be like. If someone has high enough CD they can keep the DoTs cycling, like I can....with the same level of control...and higher DPS....and possibly more HP, not seeing how Mr or Ms TelepathyDoTDPS is at a disadvantage here.
Unless those % number start being affected by Hold Strength..it's going to be a total self gimp running in Support Role.
Then you consider nearly every MV+ mob in the game (Kigatilik and his puppies are the only exceptions I know of) that have debuff caps. Legendary+ mobs are capped at about 25% redux to any one thing. That 55% x 5 from Ebon Sigils against Mega Terak, Qwyjibo, Teleiosaurus or other Legendary+ mobs? 25%. Telepathy is only one percent away from the debuff caps on most Legendary+ mobs *and* telepaths don't even have to try since the attacks are part of their normal attack rotation. When you add in spec tree debuffs it's easy to hit the debuff caps using the new telepathy powers. Why? It's an offensive passive that's a cobbled together mess of crappy bonuses. What's supporty about it? And don't point to the Trauma debuff advantage, Pestilence cuts healing as well yet is an offensive passive.
Then you consider multiple Ebon Sigil users, I have an Ebon Sigil user, together with DE:LTA's Arkane, we severely nerfed Gravitar's damage output. That felt rather good.
Originally, yes, CoS was an offensive passive, then it was changed to support/hybrid and worked pretty darn well. Then we had a 10 month gap of nothingness and for some unknown reason it was made into this multi role..thing.
Maybe it needs to be refashioned to be a more support type passive, increasing control effects, granting chance to not have a CC effect apply Hold Resistance on breakfree and granting damage increase and Ego Damage resistance (like it currently does) and have the aggression stealth and % threat redux scale with PRE and have that applied to the whole team.
Another Ego Form + small perks isn't really the spirit nor is it necessary for Telepathy. What it needs is a passive which tries to blow life into it's main mechanic, namely Crowd Control.
how about just adding a "damage done to held target does not break hold" effect to CoS? or maybe reduce the amount that damage affects hold strength?
Yeah I did suggest this earlier, it would be under increasing effectiveness of CC effects. However this needs to be innate to the DoTs, and apply to all holds (if using Cos).
...Then you consider multiple Ebon Sigil users, I have an Ebon Sigil user, together with DE:LTA's Arkane, we severely nerfed Gravitar's damage output. That felt rather good. ...
I still need to test to verify that debuff caps are per player so multiple players can in fact lower resistances/damage/etc further than just one player alone because of the caps.
But yeah, if we assume debuff caps are per player that's the main reason I'd want the telepathy debuffs to also be per player. That and I dislike the thought of others popping my debuffs to help their dps.
I still need to test to verify that debuff caps are per player so multiple players can in fact lower resistances/damage/etc further than just one player alone because of the caps.
But yeah, if we assume debuff caps are per player that's the main reason I'd want the telepathy debuffs to also be per player. That and I dislike the thought of others popping my debuffs to help their dps.
Lets just say the debuff caps per player works now.... I think the devs would know, and since it lowers dmg and resistance to ego dmg, that would leave bosses such as gravitar almost helpless and far too easy or detained. Since they know maybe that's why they didn't want the telepathy powers to stack so many debuffs per player. I'm not saying this is true (Which is not-or it could be) but it might just be that. But yet again, I've seen other debuffs stack per player, but they might not work properly.
Still need testing.
Would the Charge time debuff from telepathy work on Gravitar and such bosses?
how about just adding a "damage done to held target does not break hold" effect to CoS? or maybe reduce the amount that damage affects hold strength?
This is right in line with what I was going to suggest to help out Crowd Control as a whole. Remove the "Damage done to Held Target shortens Hold Duration crap." There are plenty of ways to get out of holds. The fact that any damage we do to a target(even with an energy builder) right after placing a hold on them pretty much nulls the hold. It makes holds a waste of energy and a waste of time in using. ALL HOLDS in game are currently nothing more then Interrupts.
I hope this change seriously becomes a reality. Players don't need more ways to beat holds, they already have high hold resistances + active def/offences + Z mashing. I mean come on guys.
This needs to be a game wide change, not a CoS boost only.
I hope this change seriously becomes a reality. Players don't need more ways to beat holds, they already have high hold resistances + active def/offences + Z mashing. I mean come on guys.
This needs to be a game wide change, not a CoS boost only.
I disagree with the highlighted pink. Why? Because this will lead to Stuns being used more in PvP alongside other holds which would then = PvPers being even more "unbalanced" and we'd have the whole maintained holds to incapaciderps situation all over again and another CC nerf. This boost should be CoS specific ONLY. That way people are actually rewarded for taking the passive, instead of running Ego Sleep, Bolas, Manipulator, AoPM, Devices, high INT and Strafing run or some other combo since holds would no longer break on damage.
Maintained holds were the only holds which didnt break with continued damage (hence their name) but the damage came from the same source as the hold. <-- that was killed off and melted down and reformed into Incapaciderps.
I'd hate to see something like that happen again. So to summarise,
1 - Yes introduce damage done does not reduce hold HP
2 - Improve Congress of Selves Passive by adding in this mechanic to CoS ONLY.
3 - Restrict CoS from being a multi role passive to Hybrid and Support Roles and implement the new mechanic
3 - Profit! As CC players now have a CC orientated passive which gives them a niche. And even better its Telepathy!
Would the Charge time debuff from telepathy work on Gravitar and such bosses?
These Telepathy powers were started off with the intention; To. Work. On. Everything.
That is the way it started off with Interrupts <--which were fantastic, best feeling of control and power and usefulness I had felt for ages in a boss fight using Telepathy.
These charge time and recharge time debuffs are also meant to be imposed on everything in game. As for usefulness of these debuffs, I think they are sort of weak and needs to properly scale on CC str as a ranged CoS user can have the same level of control and debuffing as I would in a Support Role, with perhaps higher HP and more damage.
I still need to test to verify that debuff caps are per player so multiple players can in fact lower resistances/damage/etc further than just one player alone because of the caps.
I am pretty sure they do stack on top of each other, Gravitar's 50k Yellows were nuked to around 16k between 10 Ebon Sigils and AoRP. So it was a very very nice negation.
But yeah, if we assume debuff caps are per player that's the main reason I'd want the telepathy debuffs to also be per player. That and I dislike the thought of others popping my debuffs to help their dps.
They should be per player and they should stack, or it would be meaningless to team with other telepathic toons using these DoTs, cause one person would be applicator and the others would be refreshing constantly, literally adding nothing to the fight.
I too despise the notion of someone stealing my stacks to fuel their own DPS.
I disagree with the highlighted pink. Why? Because this will lead to Stuns being used more in PvP alongside other holds which would then = PvPers being even more "unbalanced" and we'd have the whole maintained holds to incapaciderps situation all over again and another CC nerf. This boost should be CoS specific ONLY. That way people are actually rewarded for taking the passive, instead of running Ego Sleep, Bolas, Manipulator, AoPM, Devices, high INT and Strafing run or some other combo since holds would no longer break on damage.
Maintained holds were the only holds which didnt break with continued damage (hence their name) but the damage came from the same source as the hold. <-- that was killed off and melted down and reformed into Incapaciderps.
PvP Balance? Where? LoL, joking aside. I still fail to see the problem with having "Damage no longer effecting Hold Duration."
If your indeed worried about the PvP Balance, then a boost to one of the ways to shorten hold duration on yourself in a PvP match is all that would be needed. I vote for a buff to Z mashing mechanic. Having a player have to work to get out of the hold rather then another buff to natural hold resistances through stats. There you go, PvP Balance should stay the same as it is now. *cough*
The change is more to help out the PvE scenarios. Allowing powers like Ego Storm to be useful again(how often have you had your Ego Storm cut out to early cause one target busts out of the hold to soon.) Same goes for all the maintained incapacitates/holds.
So again, I'm sticking with my guns here. This change to Crowd Control should be game wide. Not just a CoS buff. Sorry Raven.:redface:
PvP Balance? Where? LoL, joking aside. I still fail to see the problem with having "Damage no longer effecting Hold Duration."
If your indeed worried about the PvP Balance, then a boost to one of the ways to shorten hold duration on yourself in a PvP match is all that would be needed. I vote for a buff to Z mashing mechanic. Having a player have to work to get out of the hold rather then another buff to natural hold resistances through stats. There you go, PvP Balance should stay the same as it is now. *cough*
The change is more to help out the PvE scenarios. Allowing powers like Ego Storm to be useful again(how often have you had your Ego Storm cut out to early cause one target busts out of the hold to soon.) Same goes for all the maintained incapacitates/holds.
So again, I'm sticking with my guns here. This change to Crowd Control should be game wide. Not just a CoS buff. Sorry Raven.:redface:
As you previously stated there are enough ways to weaken and get out of holds.
Ego Stat, Devaluing of hold HP over time without any external intervention, Z mashing, Active Offensive Breakfree damage, Hold Resistance Stacks, Hold Immunity, Rebounding Resillience from Super Jump, sheer DPS.
If there should be a buff to Z mashing then a lot of things should change. Everything above which works against CC should be neutered then, bar AO breakfree damage.
As it stands there are so many ways to laugh at holds it really is not funny.
The notion of the proposed mechanic of damage done does not affect Hold HP, is for all intents and purposes there to benefit CCers and should NOT be blanketed to the entire game.
Why?
If I can have a DPS build with Sleeps/Stuns/Paralyzes with Ranged Role, High DPS, High Damage and a decent amount of HP and I take something like Quarry Passive. If my damage does not break or weaken my holds, where is the appeal to play as a toon with high control, lower HP, lower damage and in support role?
The simple answer is There is none. <--That is the outcome in a game where Holds not being affected by damage is applied across the board.
Now, if it were to be limited to CoS, then a number of things which I previously mentioned would come into effect...
Including CC players being rewarded FOR PLAYING CC. <--That is very important.
Think of the mechanic being applied across the board to being like a similar situation to how CoS is right now.
Currently there is very little, if anything, to be desired using CoS in Support Role over Ranged DPS or Hybrid.
Why?
Because the passive is applied to all roles, allowing for whatever. In a similar fashion if CoS did not house this advantage solely where would be the appeal of choosing it for a CC build, or taking it at all?
Answer = There wouldn't be one.
It's like if AoPM was able to be applied to all roles. You can only imagine how broken and how trivialized content would be if that was the case, and PvP would be a straight up no go (even more so that it can be now).
It would essentially be easy mode for anyone and anything. The appeal for taking other passives could essentially be meaningless.
In a similar vein, making the proposed change of "damage done has no effect on Hold HP" would make trying to run a controller less appealing if everyone can have holds and not break them with damage, the only upside being you can keep enemies under for longer, then again it wouldn't matter if everyone could just DPS them to death (which they do).
Keeping it CoS only would be a fantastic way to go, but to avoid a trivializing of the role of CC any further limit it to Support/Hybrid Role.
Incapacitates just flat out need to be burned in a fire, either that or remove the silly if one target dies/breaks free, maintained hold deactivates rule as well as the 1 second maintain till it actually holds rule. That would be how to fix the Incapaciderp issue.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I am ALL for having this mechanic introduced into CO. BUT it should be CoS Restricted (and in turn have CoS Support/Hybrid restricted). I am not fighting against bringing the effect in game, just allowing the effect to benefit non CoS users. CCer's need a niche, a reason to be used, this mechanic being restricted to CoS would be it.
I am pretty sure they do stack on top of each other, Gravitar's 50k Yellows were nuked to around 16k between 10 Ebon Sigils and AoRP. So it was a very very nice negation. ...
Just saying it wouldn't matter if it was 10 sigils from two players or 2 sigils from two players regarding Ebon Sigils because of debuff caps (still assuming debuff caps are per player). The only time Ebon Sigils really shine is vs tough trash mobs because much of their debuff potential is wasted against bosses.
I think one thing you seem to be asking for there is that, from what I've read, your asking for people to be confined to very narrow roles. Why not allow someone to fill more then one role such as doing damage and crowd control? Honestly support of any form, buffing, debuffing, or crowd control should NOT be exclusive to damage because honestly the whole "holy trinity" is a very old and dated form of play that just means everyone waits around for 20-30 minutes before actually playing.
I actually enjoy being able to do more then one thing in a team in any game, and I get bored, fast, when i'm pidgin holed into only controlling crowds while I watch the team wipe the mobs, or watching the health bar all day or even doing only damage and then dying whenever a tank/crowd control player fails to control the mobs because the game forbids anyone from having the ability to do more then one thing. It's not really fun to wait around all day for a "perfect" holy trinity team. Just a point i'm making.
To Clarify; I'm not aganst the idea of a build being better at crowd control then damage or vice versa, but rather I'm against the idea of requiring people to over specialize all the time. I am even more strongly aganst the idea of any one kind of role being "required" in a team. Thats fake balance, not true balance. True balance allows any combination to work with a decent strategy, fake balance is "Oh you lost because you didn't have X", not "You lost because you had X but never used it".
IMO, I'd like to have a purpose and not be gimped because I chose to do CC when someone who wanted DPS can do heavy DPS with the same control potential as me on the side. <--that is not balanced.
CoS being multi role does not allow for "versatility" if everyone is pretty much saying it is crap. CoS being multi role is not "true balance" either.
If you want to be ranged Ego DoT DPS with penetration? Ego Form + Concentration + INT Primary + Detect Vulnerability Specs + your build = Ego DoT DPS Ranged Penetration build.
Not hard to do.
I want CoS to boost CC, if that happens it NEEDS to be restricted to Support/Hybrid.
CO now a days is less and less about teaming, which is actually an enjoyable aspect IMO. I like to be able to be in a team and have a purpose, no one else in the team (unless big enough) should be good at everything making me and others feel redundant.
If I play a healer/support I expect to heal/support, I don't expect the tank to have high DPS, high healing etc, I'm there to support.
Whether you agree with the notion of roles or not, they are there for a purpose, I intend to fill that purpose. I just hope CoS is re done perhaps and then restricted.
Ranged Telepaths can still exist they will just use Ego Form, simple. As of yet there is NO CC orientated passive. This could be the games chance to provide and cater outside of heals/DPS/Tank.
I fail to see why people are so against that notion.
I dont agree with strict roles, I DO agree with more vauge and flexible COMBINATIONS of roles. for instance if you wanna be a one man trinity, then you need to sacrifice some effectiveness at healing/dps/tanking. jack of all trades master of none. this keeps the game balanced and still encourages teaming. so that way, roles arent strictly enforced but still have some sort of place in the game, i.e. a dedicated tank character will be better at tanking than a heal/tank/dps mashup would be.
I can't agree any more with this wise words... I just hate when a "omg we lost because we didn't bring x" kind of situations in my MMOs. Strict roles shouldn't be a thing CO ever.
___________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Click up there if you want to find more about the costumes behind my heroines.
IMO, I'd like to have a purpose and not be gimped because I chose to do CC when someone who wanted DPS can do heavy DPS with the same control potential as me on the side. <--that is not balanced.
Sure it is balanced because you could choose to have DPS as well as CC yourself. if you choose to not use the options available to you to compete with someone who is useing the same options that is not a matter of imbalance.
I can't agree any more with this wise words... I just hate when a "omg we lost because we didn't bring x" kind of situations in my MMOs. Strict roles shouldn't be a thing CO ever.
Same here. I am not saying I want strict roles in the sense that only Ranged DPS should be able to do damage or something like that, I am speaking about being rewarded for dedicating yourself to a certain mechanic. It would be like a Support Toon with AoAC having the same DPS potential and output as a Ranged DPS with Quarry. Not only does that not make sense, but it would be stupid. In a similar fashion, there is no appeal to go Support with CoS if it can be used in any role. I simply want their to be an appeal and these powers to reward those who have been waiting for the best part of a year to use them. That appeal can be achieved by refashioning CoS for controllers and limiting it to support/hybrid. Not saying that a Ranged DPS cannot have CC powers but, there aren't exactly that many Ranged Role CCer's, it isnt common as you can just mow things down with your powers than control them in ranged role.
Sure it is balanced because you could choose to have DPS as well as CC yourself. if you choose to not use the options available to you to compete with someone who is useing the same options that is not a matter of imbalance.
I'd like to think that I would have better control capacity and control output than a Ranged DPS with CoS using these powers. That is what I am trying to get at. If I am dedicated to one sort of play style I should be rewarded better than someone who is trying to dip everywhere. For example, I have a mage toon who used to be able to heal others, my healing was not as strong on CharmCaster as it is/was on Alara The Light Guardian, even though they were using the same heal other power, gearing differences aside, my point is, if I spec for CC, I should have alot stronger and better CC than someone who is DPSing.
theres a place for roles, or at least should be. even strict defined ones should be viable i.e. doing the job better than a mashup. which was my point, jack of all trades SHOULD be master of none, making both strict role based characters and hybrid's worthwhile.
Exactly. That is basically what I have been trying to get across. People say that CoS isn't great yet don't want it restricted for some reason. If it isnt going to be used by a wide majority of people, why keep it a multi-role-never-before-seen-in-CO style passive?
If I have picked to do less damage in a bid for higher control capacity. I should be rewarded, in this instance to reward CCer's CoS should be restricted to Support/Hybrid, possibly refashioned to include the aforementioned mechanic about damage done not affecting hold HP AND make those 15% and 6%'s scale with Hold Strength.
Currently a Ranged DPS has JUST as much control potential as a Support Role CC toon with these buffs, and with enough CD can keep them on a target with no issue and higher DPS.
EDIT: I will say this, bar FX and CC, these powers for Telepathy are "OK" if I wanted to play an amateur Telepath who loved to run alert level content consistently. From my understanding this whole project was meant to enliven the Telepathy Power Set and allow for control to be used as a viable mechanic to assist in boss fights (so would work on ALL foes). Right now, I'm not exactly feeling an overabundance of control capacity, just seems like Pink DPS, which is a shame considering what it could be. Anyways, until we get correspondence from Dev Team, I'll be waiting.
CC resist buff on players doesn't last as long as on enemies I believe.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I dont agree with strict roles, I DO agree with more vauge and flexible COMBINATIONS of roles. for instance if you wanna be a one man trinity, then you need to sacrifice some effectiveness at healing/dps/tanking. jack of all trades master of none. this keeps the game balanced and still encourages teaming. so that way, roles arent strictly enforced but still have some sort of place in the game, i.e. a dedicated tank character will be better at tanking than a heal/tank/dps mashup would be.
The issue is (and one tiny powerset update won't fix this) that one set has been completely nerfed into uselessness. Crowd control existed at one point -- and then it was gutted. So with telepathy we have a powerset that sort of doesn't really fill any role -- except maybe DPS.
This isn't true of other sets in the game. I don't expect GC to fix such a HUGE problem. It will take more than one overworked dev to do that. But I'd like to see the new telepathy powers at least bring the set on par with sets like Technology and Mysticism. I think he's on the right track with the debuffs. My fingers are crossed that at least one more iteration of New Telepathy is coming.
You'd be surprised how much damage one dev can do to a game. I mean, look at where we are now.
Missing content.
PvP dead.
Vehicles are NOTHING like what players wanted or anything remote to being close to what Cryptic said they would be (and I quote "they won't be Become devices").
New Costume pieces are ALL purple.
Specialized Mods don't work.
Open missions lost unique rewards.
Free content removed yet returned with a price tag (lost costume unlock sources in favor of RANDOM 60 salvage gambles).
Crafting replaced with "superior" uninspired version (aka not really crafting).
Hard earned perk rewards removed and not replaced (so much for hours of farming for that uber cool costume piece).
I'd like to think that I would have better control capacity and control output than a Ranged DPS with CoS using these powers. That is what I am trying to get at. If I am dedicated to one sort of play style I should be rewarded better than someone who is trying to dip everywhere. For example, I have a mage toon who used to be able to heal others, my healing was not as strong on CharmCaster as it is/was on Alara The Light Guardian, even though they were using the same heal other power, gearing differences aside, my point is, if I spec for CC, I should have alot stronger and better CC than someone who is DPSing..
There is a difference between, "dipping everywhere," and being top notch at a couple of things. Being good, or even stellar, at a couple of things is a far cry from being a jack of all trades. The game is not designed around the idea of speccing for just one thing. I agree completely that someone trying to do everything should pay for their versatility, but in this genre and this game a character can and should have more breadth than traditional fantasy trinity MMO roles.
You'd be surprised how much damage one dev can do to a game. I mean, look at where we are now.
Missing content.
PvP dead.
Vehicles are NOTHING like what players wanted or anything remote to being close to what Cryptic said they would be (and I quote "they won't be Become devices").
New Costume pieces are ALL purple.
Specialized Mods don't work.
Open missions lost unique rewards.
Free content removed yet returned with a price tag (lost costume unlock sources in favor of RANDOM 60 salvage gambles).
Crafting replaced with "superior" uninspired version (aka not really crafting).
Hard earned perk rewards removed and not replaced (so much for hours of farming for that uber cool costume piece).
Scathing review but I cannot say that it is inaccurate.
Sure it is balanced because you could choose to have DPS as well as CC yourself. if you choose to not use the options available to you to compete with someone who is useing the same options that is not a matter of imbalance.
I'm surprised to hear this kind of argument from you. This is an old played out logic that i usually hear from PVPers in defense of fotum builds and OP powers. I guess the game is already balanced then, if all we have to do is use your build. This type of mentality would kill diversity.
I believe whats being asked for here is balance among powers and roles not balance in players ability to choose any power available to them. If the above quote was true balance, then the FF system would be inherently balanced.
There is a difference between, "dipping everywhere," and being top notch at a couple of things. Being good, or even stellar, at a couple of things is a far cry from being a jack of all trades. The game is not designed around the idea of speccing for just one thing. I agree completely that someone trying to do everything should pay for their versatility, but in this genre and this game a character can and should have more breadth than traditional fantasy trinity MMO roles.
Being good or stellar in a few things IS being a jack of all trades if your talking about CO where only two roles (defense & offense) are fully supported. As you know CO is mainly about DPS and survivability. If you are stellar at both of those things then you are effectively a jack of all trades.
We have an epidemic of people "dipping everywhere" in this game which is why the word "frankenbuild" gets thrown around so often.
As i have stated in numerous threads, im not against role blending in builds. But as it stands now in CO, a generalist can compete with a specialist in any given role if its a FF build and you understand the system. This hurts team dynamics thus making the game less fun for people who like to play MMOs socially, enjoy specialization or have specialization in an non DPS/Tank role as part of their theme.
By extension it also hurts player retention in a game that is already struggling to stay afloat. Social bonds are the glue that holds MMOS together and drives the internet in general.
This is why i would hate to see the "tankmage/zerg" design philosophy that has made CO so shallow perpetuated in the set that was supposed to be a beacon for CC and thus a beacon for diversity in play styles in CO. Especially because adding moar PSI dps is redundant.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I'm surprised to hear this kind of argument from you. This is an old played out logic that i usually hear from PVPers in defense of fotum builds and OP powers. I guess the game is already balanced then, if all we have to do is use your build. This type of mentality would kill diversity.
I believe whats being asked for here is balance among powers and roles not balance in players ability to choose any power available to them. If the above quote was true balance, then the FF system would be inherently balanced.
Being good or stellar in a few things IS being a jack of all trades if your talking about CO where only two roles (defense & offense) are fully supported. As you know CO is mainly about DPS and survivability. If you are stellar at both of those things then you are effectively a jack of all trades.
We have an epidemic of people "dipping everywhere" in this game which is why the word "frankenbuild" gets thrown around so often.
As i have stated in numerous threads, im not against role blending in builds. But as it stands now in CO, a generalist can compete with a specialist in any given role if its a FF build and you understand the system. This hurts team dynamics thus making the game less fun for people who like to play MMOs socially, enjoy specialization or have specialization in an non DPS/Tank role as part of their theme.
By extension it also hurts player retention in a game that is already struggling to stay afloat. Social bonds are the glue that holds MMOS together and drives the internet in general.
This is why i would hate to see the "tankmage/zerg" design philosophy that has made CO so shallow perpetuated in the set that was supposed to be a beacon for CC and thus a beacon for diversity in play styles in CO. Especially because adding moar PSI dps is redundant.
Most of the game mechanics have a diminishing returns model (which players hate and find ways around by using crit and dodge). Perhaps you should consider REVERSING you model to be exponentially better for higher numbers of stats and mechanic numbers?
I'm not proposing that the end level of damage, mitigation, or energy be changed.. I'm saying that having 60EGO is no longer enough to get where you want to be for ranged damage instead that number is closer to 500 EGO.
YES this is a way to reward people for being inside a role/stat/mechanic. NO I do not feel it would be unfair to hybrid builds. The stat cap has drastically changed since launch. It's time for a real update to ALL these mechanics to put them back in some kind of order.
That idea makes a lot of sense to me, if it includes adjusting all the mobs in the game to account for the increased ability of some players to take or deal more damage than they can now.
__________________________________________________
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
That idea makes a lot of sense to me, if it includes adjusting all the mobs in the game to account for the increased ability of some players to take or deal more damage than they can now.
I don't think the endgame of any one mechanic should change much.. it would just be harder to do all of them in one build.
I'm just thinking that we're already capable of some pretty crazy high DPS. If adjustments aren't made we might see nothing but 600 Ego blasters that can tear through any but the toughest lairs before the mobs can land a blow.
__________________________________________________
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
I'm just thinking that we're already capable of some pretty crazy high DPS. If adjustments aren't made we might see nothing but 600 Ego blasters that can tear through any but the toughest lairs before the mobs can land a blow.
Yeah but 600EGO makes it hard to also have 300 CON and 300 of another stat.. also if we go to an exponential model, that 300 CON won't do as well as it used to.
I'm just thinking that we're already capable of some pretty crazy high DPS. If adjustments aren't made we might see nothing but 600 Ego blasters that can tear through any but the toughest lairs before the mobs can land a blow.
I do this already with a Recovery single stat character.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
problem. Doing That Would Rip All The Creativity Out Of Building A Strong Toon And Make It High Stats Win. I'd Expect This Kinda Reasoning From Someone With Over 700 Int, But I Didn't Think You'd Actually Think Forcing Such A Gear-centric Stat Focused Model On The Rest Of Us. Your Suggestion Would Require A Gearless, Modless System With Spec Tree Like Choices That Affect Your Stats In Place Of It.
Problem. doing that would rip all the creativity out of building a strong toon and make it high stats win. I'd expect this kinda reasoning from someone with over 700 int, but I didn't think you'd actually think forcing such a gear-centric stat focused model on the rest of us. your suggestion would require a GEARLESS, MODLESS system with spec tree like choices that affect your stats in place of it.
Or how about removing diminishing returns and adjusting the scale to reflect this, because **** Diminishing Returns?
Diminishing Returns are the reason dodge/resistance stacking is so potent, if Dodge Rating was more linear, Lightning Reflexes builds wouldn't be so inferior to Invul/Dodge.
Problem. doing that would rip all the creativity out of building a strong toon and make it high stats win. I'd expect this kinda reasoning from someone with over 700 int, but I didn't think you'd actually think forcing such a gear-centric stat focused model on the rest of us. your suggestion would require a GEARLESS, MODLESS system with spec tree like choices that affect your stats in place of it.
Then you think about the current system where someone with over XXX stat number can be steamrolled by someone with lower stat numbers + AoPM.
Beside some of the RP community and people I do know, there isn't much creativity going on.
Why? Because some mechanics have been rendered useless, flat out no longer exist or simply are not worth it over 2GMing everything to death.
Having said that I'd prefer if I was rewarded for investing in higher stats. <---Doesn't mean that people cannot still be creative, if creativity is comparing yourself to other theme builds then something isn't right there, logic wise. It's probably more risky and creative to single stat a build rather than the conventional way. Whichever way someone chooses to play is up to them. It would be nice if the system could support both/all ways to play.
Having a build and having gear are two different things, even though one impacts the other.
I may choose to have a ranged TK build, if I then choose to go single stat EGO gear that is my own personal decision.
It's not being forced on anyone else. I would like to think if the facilities allow for higher stats, which it does, people who invest in higher stats should be rewarded.
You'd obviously need to look into what AoPM would do to such numbers etc and perhaps Quarry.
I'm surprised to hear this kind of argument from you. This is an old played out logic that i usually hear from PVPers in defense of fotum builds and OP powers. I guess the game is already balanced then, if all we have to do is use your build. This type of mentality would kill diversity.
I believe whats being asked for here is balance among powers and roles not balance in players ability to choose any power available to them. If the above quote was true balance, then the FF system would be inherently balanced.
Being good or stellar in a few things IS being a jack of all trades if your talking about CO where only two roles (defense & offense) are fully supported. As you know CO is mainly about DPS and survivability. If you are stellar at both of those things then you are effectively a jack of all trades.
We have an epidemic of people "dipping everywhere" in this game which is why the word "frankenbuild" gets thrown around so often.
As i have stated in numerous threads, im not against role blending in builds. But as it stands now in CO, a generalist can compete with a specialist in any given role if its a FF build and you understand the system. This hurts team dynamics thus making the game less fun for people who like to play MMOs socially, enjoy specialization or have specialization in an non DPS/Tank role as part of their theme.
By extension it also hurts player retention in a game that is already struggling to stay afloat. Social bonds are the glue that holds MMOS together and drives the internet in general.
This is why i would hate to see the "tankmage/zerg" design philosophy that has made CO so shallow perpetuated in the set that was supposed to be a beacon for CC and thus a beacon for diversity in play styles in CO. Especially because adding moar PSI dps is redundant.
Wow. Thank you. Someone else who gets it.
I have no issue at being able to compete with specialised roles in certain things, BUT it is an issue when I not only compete but surpass a healer/DPSer role toons and I am running around with high DPS and survival.
In a similar manner, I expect to be better than the rest when I invest in one style of game play over the conventional style.
Been waiting a looong while for Telepathy and it just seems to be "m0ar Derps Per Second".
People who originally wanted it to be that way now see that it is pretty much horribad this way and sort of say "cba" and have moved on.
Why these powers couldn't be CC centric, LIKE THEY USED TO, I don't know..
Alrighty, finally got some debuff cap testing done.
Resist debuff testing vs Mega Destroid
Mega D base resistance: 55%
The build I was using had Vengeance w/ adv set up to debuff enemy resists by 29% due to specs (all verified to be working correctly). The other person was running Ego Placate w/ adv + R3 Chest Beam. Total resist debuff 29% + 10% + 12.5% = 51.5%
Mega D resistance with 29% in resist debuffs: ~32%
Mega D resistance with 51.5% in resist debuffs: ~29%
There appears to be heavy DR when stacking large amounts of resistance debuffs. More testing would be required to find the threshold, which may be different for each boss/cosmic given Kigatilik and his dogs do not have any resistances whatsoever.
Damage debuff testing vs Qwyjibo
This is harder to test since a baseline needed to be established then a certain number of hits at each sigil level since damage debuffing happens before any record in the combat log and there is some randomness in damage.
Qwyjibo smash attack: ~1850-2250 damage base
We both had Ebon Sigils. I had 506 PRE and they had over 600 PRE. This makes each sigil a 59% or higher damage debuff.
Qwyjibo smash w/ 10 sigils from two players: ~1550-1750
Qwyjibo smash w/ 1 sigil: ~1550-1750
More than one player summoning a set of sigils made no discernible difference in Qwyjibo's damage. Stacking ebon sigils made no discernible difference in Qwyjibo's damage. If there is a steep soft cap like there is apparent for resistance debuffs, 59% appears to be well into DR such that additional debuffing makes no noticeable difference.
Also note other bosses/cosmics may have different thresholds.
I'm surprised to hear this kind of argument from you. This is an old played out logic that i usually hear from PVPers in defense of fotum builds and OP powers. I guess the game is already balanced then, if all we have to do is use your build. This type of mentality would kill diversity.
I did not mention, "my build." In fact I did not mention using any specific build. What I did speak of was the ability to combine different options into one. This does not reduce diversity, it increases it. The more variables built into something, the more complex it is, the less like other things of its general type it is.
I believe whats being asked for here is balance among powers and roles not balance in players ability to choose any power available to them. If the above quote was true balance, then the FF system would be inherently balanced.
I am not sure if this is an intentional strawman or merely a misreading of my post.
Being good or stellar in a few things IS being a jack of all trades if your talking about CO where only two roles (defense & offense) are fully supported. As you know CO is mainly about DPS and survivability. If you are stellar at both of those things then you are effectively a jack of all trades.
We have an epidemic of people "dipping everywhere" in this game which is why the word "frankenbuild" gets thrown around so often..
This is incorrect in the context of the exchange between Raven and myself. .
Raven and I were speaking, obviously somewhat hypothetically because we were specifically referring to control as a viable role, of the CC role. In addition there are damage dealer, defensive specialist, and group support (healer for the most part but not exclusively). All of those (again the discussion ventured into the hypothetical because we were speaking of CC as a viable option) are viable. A character that can spec into two of the four (and note that the two were not even offense and defense as you reference) is not doing everything. The specific example mentioned was damage dealer combined with control. Such a character would have limited survivability and little or no group support options beyond what is inherent to controlling foes to some extent. This would play very differently than, for example, a defensive specced character who provides group support.
As i have stated in numerous threads, im not against role blending in builds. But as it stands now in CO, a generalist can compete with a specialist in any given role if its a FF build and you understand the system. This hurts team dynamics thus making the game less fun for people who like to play MMOs socially, enjoy specialization or have specialization in an non DPS/Tank role as part of their theme.
By extension it also hurts player retention in a game that is already struggling to stay afloat. Social bonds are the glue that holds MMOS together and drives the internet in general.
This is why i would hate to see the "tankmage/zerg" design philosophy that has made CO so shallow perpetuated in the set that was supposed to be a beacon for CC and thus a beacon for diversity in play styles in CO. Especially because adding moar PSI dps is redundant.
The top survivability builds do not generally produce the top DPS (note that I am not referring to devices here because they are something that exist outside of inherent build capability). The best healer will generally not have the top DPS (though its survivability might be very good). Pretty much across the board a character that is decent, or even very good, at defense, offense, and group support will not produce numbers as good as someone who does only one of them.
Can that generalist, "compete," with the, "specialist ?" Yes he can. That is not because he is as good at those various roles as a specialist can be in any one of them. its because the specialist's capability in his area of specialty goes beyond the capacity of the game to handle. The problem is not with the generalist. Its with the fact that the amount by which the specialist exceeds the generalist's capabilities is meaningless. What is the point of 10k DPS if 1k is more than enough for pretty much anything in the game ?
The reality of the matter is that, "diversity in playstyle," in CO is not being held back by the powers, "frankenbuilds," specs, etc. Its being held back by the content. As you said here:
There is not really much that can be done to make pure control (as much as I would like it) viable with the current content. Spending endurance and a moment of activation time to control mobs that anyone else in the group can defeat in the same time is meaningless. Specialists potentially make this even worse. A specialist DPS can kill the mob even quicker...perhaps even before the animation of the control effect can be completed. A defensive specialist, particularly one with the ability to hold aggro, makes controlling mobs irrelevant because they cannot hurt him and so the control is providing no actual benefit.
For what it is worth, I play specialists exclusively (in every game I play). My sole point of dissatisfaction with that playstyle in CO is not that someone else playing a generalist might be able to generate DPS that is a significant percentage of my own while being more survivable. Its that the benefit of specialization, that extra performance within my character's area of expertise, and it is there, is irrelevant in CO's content.
Comments
Honestly, I've been wondering about the answer to this one for months now. There have been multiple people in these discussions who seem to not only wish to pidgeon-hole self-gimp themselves into specified AT-like roles...but also wish to force everyone else into the same position. I, personally, support multiple synergy options and actual choices for a greater overall versatility in what is offered when looking at all the powersets. It allows for greater freedom, variety, and more functional concepts. BTW, let's not assume for a second I think CO is even remotely close to this at the momment but, as they say, "The journey of a thousand steps...."
Also(too many posts to quote) where are these hoards of multiple telepath teams? Honestly, unless I was specifically trying to make a telepath team for testing, the most I've EVER come accross in a team was 2 people with myself being one of them. I've teamed with Cryone, Kaiserin, Sang, Jasin, and some other people as well as the occasional random Mind<giggles> in alerts and such. I've never randomly encountered more than 1 other telepath in a team. So while it's kinda cute to consider balancing somewhat from the perspective of multiple telepaths...what's the point of this being a reoccurring driving central point? It "could" happen...but seriously...it's most likely not going to happen so what's the big deal?
As I currently see it the only issue on live right this moment with having multiple telepaths on a team is if they all have TK Maelstrom and there are some destructable objects around...which could slideshow everyone in range and potentially knock most of those people offline....but I can almost do this alone in the alert "A Stitch in Time." Sadly, I don't even remotely think this is on the blocks to be looked at or repaired.
Lastly, the rolling hatred for CoS. Sure it's not ideal. Sure it's not great but it can be made to work and I, personally, believe that it's multi-role versatility is one of it's very few saving graces at this point. Again, for me, it comes down to multi-synergy variables and the ability to do more than build some glorified AT. Some people say they don't want to feel useless in "Encounter X" and that's fine and dandy...so set yourself up to run in multiple builds. Oh look, a passive that lets you do that if you build around it. Again, the problem is where exactly?
Ok, I lied...4 points. At the present CO has roughly 1.5Devs(Prove me wrong Cryptic North People, I dare you...please...pretty please). 1 Dev(Team Lordgar) working on some costume repairs and the new "Not-TRON" stuff and .5Devs(Crush when he has free time from NW work) working on these powers. At this point I, personally, believe we're getting to the end of the road on this. The point where all this debate, math, and such is all but meaningless. Some changes were made. Some changes were not made. Unless I'm wrong(I welcome this btw) it's all but time to take a deep breath, close our eyes, and wait for the impact wave to hit Live. Look on the bright side. Now we have some new powers to do the same content over and over with again. Yes, that's the bright side...
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Anyway, just curious.
I did a full write up on CoS earlier and I'm feeling lazy so here's the cliffnotes version.
-The damage bonus sucks because it's ego DoT damage only and said damage bonus number is the same as other energy form passives.
-The resist reduction is overshadowed by mods and specs (in most PvE cases) since it lowers resistances by a percentage instead of a flat number.
-The aggression stealth is useless when you need it most, vs tough mobs.
-The threat reduction might be useful if you're in Hybrid role, but the telepathy DoTs aren't exactly damage powerhouses so there's a good chance you wouldn't have aggro anyway.
In my opinion CoS is *not* as case of "greater than the sum of the parts".
I'm also not seeing the versatility you see. It's a generic energy form offensive passive, except it's got bad bonuses. You won't be tanking or using it in melee dps role. That leaves ranged dps, support or hybrid. Which means to make a versatile build you make a support character sporting varying degrees of damage/support depending on the current role. At that point I'd rather pick an offensive or support passive since the more unique bonuses from them make up for the lack of being able to use them in a 3rd role.
Think about it from this perspective which not only myself but Jaybezz has also tried to make other people see.
INT Primary + Detect Vulnerability + CoS (granting extra 30% penetration on top of INT penetration) + CoS passive bonuses + Manipulator/Concentration + Ranged Role.
So you have penetration, upon penetration upon the other bonuses plus a role which increases the base damage on ranged abilities. <--what part of that isnt too OP for ranged?
If people are wanting penetration to their DoT values alongside wanting to run ranged Ego, then oh look, Ego Form with INT primary + Detect Vulnerability = Penetration to all damage including your Ego DoTs.
I don't see why the mold should be broken and allow a multi role passive that hardly anyone is going to use because people are pointing out issues with it.
10 months ago, CoS was basically ready for LIVE, it was Support/Hybrid and NO ONE had an issue with it, if they did, Ego Form was waiting for them just around the corner and guess what, it still is.
I do not see why such a mechanic should be introduced into CO. Are they hoping to expand upon this mechanic by allowing other passives to be multi role passives? Not likely. So why on Earth allow or even think about putting such a passive on LIVE? Anything outside the conventional order of dual role passives is going to be an issue.
Think of it as a "saving grace" for these powers if you will, but as far as I am concerned it's a bad move. Why it had to be changed from 10 months ago when it was great, I am not sure.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
What I wish, is to allow myself to play a toon of mine which I have been waiting to play with for almost an entire YEAR after going from Silver Status to LTS on the premise that these powers were going to be my "saving grace" as regards Telepathy. So far the situation has gone from: "Great! to Wow...that bad huh?"
Unless they are planning to extend this multi role deal to other passives, I do not see how this will not cause an issue. Why is that so difficult to understand? We have a system for passives in place, why break it?
There in lies the sad truth. Where there can be multiple 2GM builds in a group, you'll NEVER ever see a multiple Telepath Group unless you are all Mind AT's or FF Telepaths who found each other. With the current iteration of the powers, a multiple team of telepaths would be counterproductive; Debuffs do not currently stack past 4 so if I build up 4 stacks, another telepath would be simply building up the other primary effects and constantly refreshing the four stacks. Which is the same job as I can currently do ALONE. So in a team of 3 telepaths and 1 DPS and 1 Tank. One of the Telepaths with the fastest CD on DoTs can spam for the debuffs, the other two will be refreshing, not actively contributing to the debuffing of a foe, doing the same as that 1 telepath would be doing. THAT is one of the reasons multiple Telepaths are bad, poor stacking debuff structure and then there is the active granting of CC resistance stacks when you "accidentally" press Psi Lash on a slept target so they insta break out. Another reason not to team.
See my above reply to riveroceans post and you'll see (hopefully) why I have an issue with CoS being multi role. But to put it simply, what benefit do I gain from being CC Support with CoS over someone with concentration, same DoTs, CoS, more HP and higher damage in Ranged Role? At this point in time, nothing what so ever. If you consider the ranged going INT primary, their CD's on the DoTs will be quicker than mine, meaning they spam more often and have the same level of control as the "15%" and the "6%" are not affected by Manipulator. Therefore I gain nothing.
All I am looking for is to be useful, not a dead weight on a team. I want to be able to team up with my friends in game on my main character without them breaking my control powers so easily or me breaking theirs (if fellow telepaths). I would like to be rewarded for my effort towards Crowd Control game play style, so far I have been reduced to DPS, which has the ability to negate my controlling powers and still HEALS MY ENEMIES IN PVP.
If you can try to imagine how I feel, knowing that going LTS so far has not exactly panned out in my favor when it could have. I've been deprived my main char for almost a year, and although people may not want to acknowledge it, there have been additions and changes this year which I had fun doing on my other toons, but I wasn't allowed to on my main. And when finally these powers are worked on, they are pretty much the definition of "weak sauce control". Sob Story I know, but that's how I feel, I feel as if I've spent alot and been given the equivalent of gruel.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
#Interruptstrivializegameplay :rolleyes:
On a serious note I wouldn't mind if Mental Storm was an interrupt on charging over 1 sec, and stun on tap and paralyze on full charge.
I fought another player with these powers. They increased Mind Break from 1.5 sec charge time to 1.72 charge time an increase of 0.22 sec. And increased Masterful Dodge recharge time by 4 seconds. Which was the exact same increase to recharge/charge time, I, a fully specced control build gave him. I fail to see how that is fantastic, if it doesnt do much to a player, what on earth is it going to do to a boss? I think what needs to be done is to test what happens control wise to a boss using these powers. On Firewing he was still a pain monster of a boss, but less people died with the inflated amount debuffs which were increased by 1000%, regardless, people still died, so myself and other CC users failed to assist well enough with inflated numbers. Now deflated and "WAI" I would NOT want to see what the fight would be like. If someone has high enough CD they can keep the DoTs cycling, like I can....with the same level of control...and higher DPS....and possibly more HP, not seeing how Mr or Ms TelepathyDoTDPS is at a disadvantage here.
Unless those % number start being affected by Hold Strength..it's going to be a total self gimp running in Support Role.
Then you consider multiple Ebon Sigil users, I have an Ebon Sigil user, together with DE:LTA's Arkane, we severely nerfed Gravitar's damage output. That felt rather good.
Originally, yes, CoS was an offensive passive, then it was changed to support/hybrid and worked pretty darn well. Then we had a 10 month gap of nothingness and for some unknown reason it was made into this multi role..thing.
Maybe it needs to be refashioned to be a more support type passive, increasing control effects, granting chance to not have a CC effect apply Hold Resistance on breakfree and granting damage increase and Ego Damage resistance (like it currently does) and have the aggression stealth and % threat redux scale with PRE and have that applied to the whole team.
Another Ego Form + small perks isn't really the spirit nor is it necessary for Telepathy. What it needs is a passive which tries to blow life into it's main mechanic, namely Crowd Control.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Yeah I did suggest this earlier, it would be under increasing effectiveness of CC effects. However this needs to be innate to the DoTs, and apply to all holds (if using Cos).
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
I still need to test to verify that debuff caps are per player so multiple players can in fact lower resistances/damage/etc further than just one player alone because of the caps.
But yeah, if we assume debuff caps are per player that's the main reason I'd want the telepathy debuffs to also be per player. That and I dislike the thought of others popping my debuffs to help their dps.
Lets just say the debuff caps per player works now.... I think the devs would know, and since it lowers dmg and resistance to ego dmg, that would leave bosses such as gravitar almost helpless and far too easy or detained. Since they know maybe that's why they didn't want the telepathy powers to stack so many debuffs per player. I'm not saying this is true (Which is not-or it could be) but it might just be that. But yet again, I've seen other debuffs stack per player, but they might not work properly.
Still need testing.
Would the Charge time debuff from telepathy work on Gravitar and such bosses?
This is right in line with what I was going to suggest to help out Crowd Control as a whole. Remove the "Damage done to Held Target shortens Hold Duration crap." There are plenty of ways to get out of holds. The fact that any damage we do to a target(even with an energy builder) right after placing a hold on them pretty much nulls the hold. It makes holds a waste of energy and a waste of time in using. ALL HOLDS in game are currently nothing more then Interrupts.
I hope this change seriously becomes a reality. Players don't need more ways to beat holds, they already have high hold resistances + active def/offences + Z mashing. I mean come on guys.
This needs to be a game wide change, not a CoS boost only.
I disagree with the highlighted pink. Why? Because this will lead to Stuns being used more in PvP alongside other holds which would then = PvPers being even more "unbalanced" and we'd have the whole maintained holds to incapaciderps situation all over again and another CC nerf. This boost should be CoS specific ONLY. That way people are actually rewarded for taking the passive, instead of running Ego Sleep, Bolas, Manipulator, AoPM, Devices, high INT and Strafing run or some other combo since holds would no longer break on damage.
Maintained holds were the only holds which didnt break with continued damage (hence their name) but the damage came from the same source as the hold. <-- that was killed off and melted down and reformed into Incapaciderps.
I'd hate to see something like that happen again. So to summarise,
1 - Yes introduce damage done does not reduce hold HP
2 - Improve Congress of Selves Passive by adding in this mechanic to CoS ONLY.
3 - Restrict CoS from being a multi role passive to Hybrid and Support Roles and implement the new mechanic
3 - Profit! As CC players now have a CC orientated passive which gives them a niche. And even better its Telepathy!
These Telepathy powers were started off with the intention; To. Work. On. Everything.
That is the way it started off with Interrupts <--which were fantastic, best feeling of control and power and usefulness I had felt for ages in a boss fight using Telepathy.
These charge time and recharge time debuffs are also meant to be imposed on everything in game. As for usefulness of these debuffs, I think they are sort of weak and needs to properly scale on CC str as a ranged CoS user can have the same level of control and debuffing as I would in a Support Role, with perhaps higher HP and more damage.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
I am pretty sure they do stack on top of each other, Gravitar's 50k Yellows were nuked to around 16k between 10 Ebon Sigils and AoRP. So it was a very very nice negation.
They should be per player and they should stack, or it would be meaningless to team with other telepathic toons using these DoTs, cause one person would be applicator and the others would be refreshing constantly, literally adding nothing to the fight.
I too despise the notion of someone stealing my stacks to fuel their own DPS.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
PvP Balance? Where? LoL, joking aside. I still fail to see the problem with having "Damage no longer effecting Hold Duration."
If your indeed worried about the PvP Balance, then a boost to one of the ways to shorten hold duration on yourself in a PvP match is all that would be needed. I vote for a buff to Z mashing mechanic. Having a player have to work to get out of the hold rather then another buff to natural hold resistances through stats. There you go, PvP Balance should stay the same as it is now. *cough*
The change is more to help out the PvE scenarios. Allowing powers like Ego Storm to be useful again(how often have you had your Ego Storm cut out to early cause one target busts out of the hold to soon.) Same goes for all the maintained incapacitates/holds.
So again, I'm sticking with my guns here. This change to Crowd Control should be game wide. Not just a CoS buff. Sorry Raven.:redface:
As you previously stated there are enough ways to weaken and get out of holds.
Ego Stat, Devaluing of hold HP over time without any external intervention, Z mashing, Active Offensive Breakfree damage, Hold Resistance Stacks, Hold Immunity, Rebounding Resillience from Super Jump, sheer DPS.
If there should be a buff to Z mashing then a lot of things should change. Everything above which works against CC should be neutered then, bar AO breakfree damage.
As it stands there are so many ways to laugh at holds it really is not funny.
The notion of the proposed mechanic of damage done does not affect Hold HP, is for all intents and purposes there to benefit CCers and should NOT be blanketed to the entire game.
Why?
If I can have a DPS build with Sleeps/Stuns/Paralyzes with Ranged Role, High DPS, High Damage and a decent amount of HP and I take something like Quarry Passive. If my damage does not break or weaken my holds, where is the appeal to play as a toon with high control, lower HP, lower damage and in support role?
The simple answer is There is none. <--That is the outcome in a game where Holds not being affected by damage is applied across the board.
Now, if it were to be limited to CoS, then a number of things which I previously mentioned would come into effect...
Including CC players being rewarded FOR PLAYING CC. <--That is very important.
Think of the mechanic being applied across the board to being like a similar situation to how CoS is right now.
Currently there is very little, if anything, to be desired using CoS in Support Role over Ranged DPS or Hybrid.
Why?
Because the passive is applied to all roles, allowing for whatever. In a similar fashion if CoS did not house this advantage solely where would be the appeal of choosing it for a CC build, or taking it at all?
Answer = There wouldn't be one.
It's like if AoPM was able to be applied to all roles. You can only imagine how broken and how trivialized content would be if that was the case, and PvP would be a straight up no go (even more so that it can be now).
It would essentially be easy mode for anyone and anything. The appeal for taking other passives could essentially be meaningless.
In a similar vein, making the proposed change of "damage done has no effect on Hold HP" would make trying to run a controller less appealing if everyone can have holds and not break them with damage, the only upside being you can keep enemies under for longer, then again it wouldn't matter if everyone could just DPS them to death (which they do).
Keeping it CoS only would be a fantastic way to go, but to avoid a trivializing of the role of CC any further limit it to Support/Hybrid Role.
Incapacitates just flat out need to be burned in a fire, either that or remove the silly if one target dies/breaks free, maintained hold deactivates rule as well as the 1 second maintain till it actually holds rule. That would be how to fix the Incapaciderp issue.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I am ALL for having this mechanic introduced into CO. BUT it should be CoS Restricted (and in turn have CoS Support/Hybrid restricted). I am not fighting against bringing the effect in game, just allowing the effect to benefit non CoS users. CCer's need a niche, a reason to be used, this mechanic being restricted to CoS would be it.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Just saying it wouldn't matter if it was 10 sigils from two players or 2 sigils from two players regarding Ebon Sigils because of debuff caps (still assuming debuff caps are per player). The only time Ebon Sigils really shine is vs tough trash mobs because much of their debuff potential is wasted against bosses.
IMO, I'd like to have a purpose and not be gimped because I chose to do CC when someone who wanted DPS can do heavy DPS with the same control potential as me on the side. <--that is not balanced.
CoS being multi role does not allow for "versatility" if everyone is pretty much saying it is crap. CoS being multi role is not "true balance" either.
If you want to be ranged Ego DoT DPS with penetration? Ego Form + Concentration + INT Primary + Detect Vulnerability Specs + your build = Ego DoT DPS Ranged Penetration build.
Not hard to do.
I want CoS to boost CC, if that happens it NEEDS to be restricted to Support/Hybrid.
CO now a days is less and less about teaming, which is actually an enjoyable aspect IMO. I like to be able to be in a team and have a purpose, no one else in the team (unless big enough) should be good at everything making me and others feel redundant.
If I play a healer/support I expect to heal/support, I don't expect the tank to have high DPS, high healing etc, I'm there to support.
Whether you agree with the notion of roles or not, they are there for a purpose, I intend to fill that purpose. I just hope CoS is re done perhaps and then restricted.
Ranged Telepaths can still exist they will just use Ego Form, simple. As of yet there is NO CC orientated passive. This could be the games chance to provide and cater outside of heals/DPS/Tank.
I fail to see why people are so against that notion.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
I can't agree any more with this wise words... I just hate when a "omg we lost because we didn't bring x" kind of situations in my MMOs. Strict roles shouldn't be a thing CO ever.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Click up there if you want to find more about the costumes behind my heroines.
Sure it is balanced because you could choose to have DPS as well as CC yourself. if you choose to not use the options available to you to compete with someone who is useing the same options that is not a matter of imbalance.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Same here. I am not saying I want strict roles in the sense that only Ranged DPS should be able to do damage or something like that, I am speaking about being rewarded for dedicating yourself to a certain mechanic. It would be like a Support Toon with AoAC having the same DPS potential and output as a Ranged DPS with Quarry. Not only does that not make sense, but it would be stupid. In a similar fashion, there is no appeal to go Support with CoS if it can be used in any role. I simply want their to be an appeal and these powers to reward those who have been waiting for the best part of a year to use them. That appeal can be achieved by refashioning CoS for controllers and limiting it to support/hybrid. Not saying that a Ranged DPS cannot have CC powers but, there aren't exactly that many Ranged Role CCer's, it isnt common as you can just mow things down with your powers than control them in ranged role.
I'd like to think that I would have better control capacity and control output than a Ranged DPS with CoS using these powers. That is what I am trying to get at. If I am dedicated to one sort of play style I should be rewarded better than someone who is trying to dip everywhere. For example, I have a mage toon who used to be able to heal others, my healing was not as strong on CharmCaster as it is/was on Alara The Light Guardian, even though they were using the same heal other power, gearing differences aside, my point is, if I spec for CC, I should have alot stronger and better CC than someone who is DPSing.
Exactly. That is basically what I have been trying to get across. People say that CoS isn't great yet don't want it restricted for some reason. If it isnt going to be used by a wide majority of people, why keep it a multi-role-never-before-seen-in-CO style passive?
If I have picked to do less damage in a bid for higher control capacity. I should be rewarded, in this instance to reward CCer's CoS should be restricted to Support/Hybrid, possibly refashioned to include the aforementioned mechanic about damage done not affecting hold HP AND make those 15% and 6%'s scale with Hold Strength.
Currently a Ranged DPS has JUST as much control potential as a Support Role CC toon with these buffs, and with enough CD can keep them on a target with no issue and higher DPS.
EDIT: I will say this, bar FX and CC, these powers for Telepathy are "OK" if I wanted to play an amateur Telepath who loved to run alert level content consistently. From my understanding this whole project was meant to enliven the Telepathy Power Set and allow for control to be used as a viable mechanic to assist in boss fights (so would work on ALL foes). Right now, I'm not exactly feeling an overabundance of control capacity, just seems like Pink DPS, which is a shame considering what it could be. Anyways, until we get correspondence from Dev Team, I'll be waiting.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
If so that means that the Hold Resist buff lasts as long as an active defensive power.
Which means...every player regardless of build has an anti CC AD built in. lol.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
This also goes for Stuns, Roots, and Knocks.
Deliciously nutritious!
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
True.
I guess I'd like to see what CO would be like without those resistances xD
probably complete chaos. :biggrin:
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
The issue is (and one tiny powerset update won't fix this) that one set has been completely nerfed into uselessness. Crowd control existed at one point -- and then it was gutted. So with telepathy we have a powerset that sort of doesn't really fill any role -- except maybe DPS.
This isn't true of other sets in the game. I don't expect GC to fix such a HUGE problem. It will take more than one overworked dev to do that. But I'd like to see the new telepathy powers at least bring the set on par with sets like Technology and Mysticism. I think he's on the right track with the debuffs. My fingers are crossed that at least one more iteration of New Telepathy is coming.
Missing content.
PvP dead.
Vehicles are NOTHING like what players wanted or anything remote to being close to what Cryptic said they would be (and I quote "they won't be Become devices").
New Costume pieces are ALL purple.
Specialized Mods don't work.
Open missions lost unique rewards.
Free content removed yet returned with a price tag (lost costume unlock sources in favor of RANDOM 60 salvage gambles).
Crafting replaced with "superior" uninspired version (aka not really crafting).
Hard earned perk rewards removed and not replaced (so much for hours of farming for that uber cool costume piece).
There is a difference between, "dipping everywhere," and being top notch at a couple of things. Being good, or even stellar, at a couple of things is a far cry from being a jack of all trades. The game is not designed around the idea of speccing for just one thing. I agree completely that someone trying to do everything should pay for their versatility, but in this genre and this game a character can and should have more breadth than traditional fantasy trinity MMO roles.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Scathing review but I cannot say that it is inaccurate.
I believe whats being asked for here is balance among powers and roles not balance in players ability to choose any power available to them. If the above quote was true balance, then the FF system would be inherently balanced.
Being good or stellar in a few things IS being a jack of all trades if your talking about CO where only two roles (defense & offense) are fully supported. As you know CO is mainly about DPS and survivability. If you are stellar at both of those things then you are effectively a jack of all trades.
We have an epidemic of people "dipping everywhere" in this game which is why the word "frankenbuild" gets thrown around so often.
As i have stated in numerous threads, im not against role blending in builds. But as it stands now in CO, a generalist can compete with a specialist in any given role if its a FF build and you understand the system. This hurts team dynamics thus making the game less fun for people who like to play MMOs socially, enjoy specialization or have specialization in an non DPS/Tank role as part of their theme.
By extension it also hurts player retention in a game that is already struggling to stay afloat. Social bonds are the glue that holds MMOS together and drives the internet in general.
This is why i would hate to see the "tankmage/zerg" design philosophy that has made CO so shallow perpetuated in the set that was supposed to be a beacon for CC and thus a beacon for diversity in play styles in CO. Especially because adding moar PSI dps is redundant.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
When: When editing the colors of the piece in the Tailor
What happens: None of the colors have a GLOW option. At least the fourth slot needs this, or else it's a very bad cyber costume piece
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
I agree with all of this.
Most of the game mechanics have a diminishing returns model (which players hate and find ways around by using crit and dodge). Perhaps you should consider REVERSING you model to be exponentially better for higher numbers of stats and mechanic numbers?
I'm not proposing that the end level of damage, mitigation, or energy be changed.. I'm saying that having 60EGO is no longer enough to get where you want to be for ranged damage instead that number is closer to 500 EGO.
YES this is a way to reward people for being inside a role/stat/mechanic. NO I do not feel it would be unfair to hybrid builds. The stat cap has drastically changed since launch. It's time for a real update to ALL these mechanics to put them back in some kind of order.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
I don't think the endgame of any one mechanic should change much.. it would just be harder to do all of them in one build.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Yeah but 600EGO makes it hard to also have 300 CON and 300 of another stat.. also if we go to an exponential model, that 300 CON won't do as well as it used to.
I do this already with a Recovery single stat character.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
This.............
@Scrizz :biggrin:
Or how about removing diminishing returns and adjusting the scale to reflect this, because **** Diminishing Returns?
Diminishing Returns are the reason dodge/resistance stacking is so potent, if Dodge Rating was more linear, Lightning Reflexes builds wouldn't be so inferior to Invul/Dodge.
Then you think about the current system where someone with over XXX stat number can be steamrolled by someone with lower stat numbers + AoPM.
Beside some of the RP community and people I do know, there isn't much creativity going on.
Why? Because some mechanics have been rendered useless, flat out no longer exist or simply are not worth it over 2GMing everything to death.
Having said that I'd prefer if I was rewarded for investing in higher stats. <---Doesn't mean that people cannot still be creative, if creativity is comparing yourself to other theme builds then something isn't right there, logic wise. It's probably more risky and creative to single stat a build rather than the conventional way. Whichever way someone chooses to play is up to them. It would be nice if the system could support both/all ways to play.
Having a build and having gear are two different things, even though one impacts the other.
I may choose to have a ranged TK build, if I then choose to go single stat EGO gear that is my own personal decision.
It's not being forced on anyone else. I would like to think if the facilities allow for higher stats, which it does, people who invest in higher stats should be rewarded.
You'd obviously need to look into what AoPM would do to such numbers etc and perhaps Quarry.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Wow. Thank you. Someone else who gets it.
I have no issue at being able to compete with specialised roles in certain things, BUT it is an issue when I not only compete but surpass a healer/DPSer role toons and I am running around with high DPS and survival.
In a similar manner, I expect to be better than the rest when I invest in one style of game play over the conventional style.
Been waiting a looong while for Telepathy and it just seems to be "m0ar Derps Per Second".
People who originally wanted it to be that way now see that it is pretty much horribad this way and sort of say "cba" and have moved on.
Why these powers couldn't be CC centric, LIKE THEY USED TO, I don't know..
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Resist debuff testing vs Mega Destroid
Mega D base resistance: 55%
The build I was using had Vengeance w/ adv set up to debuff enemy resists by 29% due to specs (all verified to be working correctly). The other person was running Ego Placate w/ adv + R3 Chest Beam. Total resist debuff 29% + 10% + 12.5% = 51.5%
Mega D resistance with 29% in resist debuffs: ~32%
Mega D resistance with 51.5% in resist debuffs: ~29%
There appears to be heavy DR when stacking large amounts of resistance debuffs. More testing would be required to find the threshold, which may be different for each boss/cosmic given Kigatilik and his dogs do not have any resistances whatsoever.
Damage debuff testing vs Qwyjibo
This is harder to test since a baseline needed to be established then a certain number of hits at each sigil level since damage debuffing happens before any record in the combat log and there is some randomness in damage.
Qwyjibo smash attack: ~1850-2250 damage base
We both had Ebon Sigils. I had 506 PRE and they had over 600 PRE. This makes each sigil a 59% or higher damage debuff.
Qwyjibo smash w/ 10 sigils from two players: ~1550-1750
Qwyjibo smash w/ 1 sigil: ~1550-1750
More than one player summoning a set of sigils made no discernible difference in Qwyjibo's damage. Stacking ebon sigils made no discernible difference in Qwyjibo's damage. If there is a steep soft cap like there is apparent for resistance debuffs, 59% appears to be well into DR such that additional debuffing makes no noticeable difference.
Also note other bosses/cosmics may have different thresholds.
I did not mention, "my build." In fact I did not mention using any specific build. What I did speak of was the ability to combine different options into one. This does not reduce diversity, it increases it. The more variables built into something, the more complex it is, the less like other things of its general type it is.
I am not sure if this is an intentional strawman or merely a misreading of my post.
This is incorrect in the context of the exchange between Raven and myself. .
Raven and I were speaking, obviously somewhat hypothetically because we were specifically referring to control as a viable role, of the CC role. In addition there are damage dealer, defensive specialist, and group support (healer for the most part but not exclusively). All of those (again the discussion ventured into the hypothetical because we were speaking of CC as a viable option) are viable. A character that can spec into two of the four (and note that the two were not even offense and defense as you reference) is not doing everything. The specific example mentioned was damage dealer combined with control. Such a character would have limited survivability and little or no group support options beyond what is inherent to controlling foes to some extent. This would play very differently than, for example, a defensive specced character who provides group support.
The top survivability builds do not generally produce the top DPS (note that I am not referring to devices here because they are something that exist outside of inherent build capability). The best healer will generally not have the top DPS (though its survivability might be very good). Pretty much across the board a character that is decent, or even very good, at defense, offense, and group support will not produce numbers as good as someone who does only one of them.
Can that generalist, "compete," with the, "specialist ?" Yes he can. That is not because he is as good at those various roles as a specialist can be in any one of them. its because the specialist's capability in his area of specialty goes beyond the capacity of the game to handle. The problem is not with the generalist. Its with the fact that the amount by which the specialist exceeds the generalist's capabilities is meaningless. What is the point of 10k DPS if 1k is more than enough for pretty much anything in the game ?
The reality of the matter is that, "diversity in playstyle," in CO is not being held back by the powers, "frankenbuilds," specs, etc. Its being held back by the content. As you said here:
There is not really much that can be done to make pure control (as much as I would like it) viable with the current content. Spending endurance and a moment of activation time to control mobs that anyone else in the group can defeat in the same time is meaningless. Specialists potentially make this even worse. A specialist DPS can kill the mob even quicker...perhaps even before the animation of the control effect can be completed. A defensive specialist, particularly one with the ability to hold aggro, makes controlling mobs irrelevant because they cannot hurt him and so the control is providing no actual benefit.
For what it is worth, I play specialists exclusively (in every game I play). My sole point of dissatisfaction with that playstyle in CO is not that someone else playing a generalist might be able to generate DPS that is a significant percentage of my own while being more survivable. Its that the benefit of specialization, that extra performance within my character's area of expertise, and it is there, is irrelevant in CO's content.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.