Yes, they are. Case in point: Mountain Grab Bag. It actually guaranteed a costume piece and was argueably the last somewhat honest store item before the entire business model switched to a "honestly, it's not gambling" con thats honestly not gambling because really, you are guaranteed at least <insert suck-**** mod of choice here>.
Aside from that, see new sig.
What about the Halloween grab bag? The only thing you were guaranteed is that they weren't empty. Cursed grab bag didn't guarantee any costumes or special items either. By your definition then, you can't compare any grab bag to each other because they're apples, oranges, and grapes.
Did I state I know exactly what is selling on the Z-Store, no, no I didn't.
However you stated Lock boxes were the only thing selling on the Z-Store that funds the development team, huh, makes you wonder how the game even lasted before those little con boxes were introduced, I mean it wasn't at all the hundreds of other items, sets and services available through the C-Store, oh no, not at all.
I said they're working off of lockbox money because that's what makes the most money. We've been told that by Trailturtle, and I'm inclined to believe him, since he knows more about that stuff than you or I or anyone else here knows.
I don't think I said that they're the ONLY things that are selling. I think you took what I said about a hypothetical situation a bit too literally (we don't know for sure that they're running a skeleton crew, or just one guy, or a dozen Cryptic North guys, or whatever else).
Unless you know that anything else sold better than the lockboxes, I'm not sure where you're really going with that.
You may normally purchase a hamburger. Or pizza. Or ribs.
Now you are very, very hungry. I offer you 'random food item in a bag'.
You will buy the random food item in a bag, as you have no hamburger, pizza, or ribs option. Especially if that random food item in a bag comes with a chance to win a free t-shirt, some shoes, and free movie tickets. It does not mean you really like that food item in a bag at random. You are hungry, and you will buy it.
You may normally purchase a hamburger. Or pizza. Or ribs.
Now you are very, very hungry. I offer you 'random food item in a bag'.
You will buy the random food item in a bag, as you have no hamburger, pizza, or ribs option. Especially if that random food item in a bag comes with a chance to win a free t-shirt, some shoes, and free movie tickets. It does not mean you really like that food item in a bag at random. You are hungry, and you will buy it.
Then I must not be very hungry, because I've never purchased their random food bags.
However, it's quite plain from the fact that they're still selling them that other people have. Not you, not me, not a lot of people in the forums - but, apparently, a lot of people not in the forums, which, let's be honest, is by far the larger set.
I dislike the lockboxes intensely - but I can hardly fault Cryptic for acting like a corporation, and trying to make money the most efficient way they can. It's not like there are Bangladeshi orphans laboring overtime in a sweatshop to manufacture those keys or anything...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I dislike the lockboxes intensely - but I can hardly fault Cryptic for acting like a corporation, and trying to make money the most efficient way they can. It's not like there are Bangladeshi orphans laboring overtime in a sweatshop to manufacture those keys or anything...
My problem isn't 'Lockboxes'. My problem is 'ONLY LOCKBOXES'. I think no one would give a damn if they sold lockboxes and then other stuff outright.
if this is all they are going to add to CO from here on in then unlock my freeform characters. What do they need my subscription money when clearly they are relying on lock boxes almost entirely? In fact not being able to access all but two of my characters is a huge reason why I don't play this game. But having access to freeforms IS NOT ENOUGH to warrant a 15 dollar subscription, especially when you have an in-game store. Especially not for a game that is for all intents and purposes dead in the water.
All I know is that until I see some sign that they are actually going to produce MEANINGFUL content (i.e. not alerts, not these **** "events") I'm not spending a dime on this game. I don't even really play anymore because I'm disgusted with how cryptic chooses to handle this title.
And no, I don't play STO or NO. Actually, I think NO is, in general, pretty horrible and STO pretty much nickles and dimes you for every cent you're worth, even if you're already subbed, so I stopped playing that a year or two ago.
I have never seen a video game community, especially for an MMO, actively IGNORED by the developer for so long. The fact that they can't get somebody on here to put out the fires at all says a lot more to me about the state of this game and its expected "progress" than anything else.
TO me it simply says "your concerns are completely valid and are pretty much 100% on the money, but I don't want people to give up that last sliver of hope they have, so I'll just sit back and wait for everyone to quit out of disgust... At which point I can quietly, and with good reason, shut down this piece of **** to concentrate on more important IP's"
THE DEAFENING SILENCE FROM CRYPTIC SHOULD TELL US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW.
You may normally purchase a hamburger. Or pizza. Or ribs.
Now you are very, very hungry. I offer you 'random food item in a bag'.
You will buy the random food item in a bag, as you have no hamburger, pizza, or ribs option. Especially if that random food item in a bag comes with a chance to win a free t-shirt, some shoes, and free movie tickets. It does not mean you really like that food item in a bag at random. You are hungry, and you will buy it.
Awesome, new analogies.
Have you thought that maybe if they offered the same things in lockboxes that they do in the C Store, the lockboxes will not sell as much, and thus the game gets less funding, maybe enough to not sustain itself anymore? The whole point is to get people to pay more than 5 bucks for a costume set. And I'm willing to bet that this is the way it is, because without the lockboxes, the game wasn't making enough money.
I doubt very much that they had a "Let's piss off all our customers" meeting where someone suggested to stop all the C Store stuff in favor of lockboxes that people hate, the ayes had it, and they all went home laughing.
The way things are is due to necessity, not because they don't know what they're doing, or because they hate the players.
Trust me I'm in the same boat as you guys. I've spent a lot of money on this game, and would gladly spend a lot more if A - I liked the things they released and B - they released them in a way that I liked. I don't want to buy lockboxes, and it's due in part to my terrible-**** luck. It cost me about 60 bucks to get a Widow Grav Bike. In all those boxes I opened, I got nothing but Salvage, boosts, and mods.
So yeah, I don't like lockboxes, would spend a lot more money in the game, and I hate how things are being sold now. But unless some miracle happens and thousands of people start throwing money at the game, this is probably the logical course for the game, and we can all grin and bear it or go somewhere else.
Have you thought that maybe if they offered the same things in lockboxes that they do in the C Store, the lockboxes will not sell as much, and thus the game gets less funding, maybe enough to not sustain itself anymore? The whole point is to get people to pay more than 5 bucks for a costume set. And I'm willing to bet that this is the way it is, because without the lockboxes, the game wasn't making enough money.
I don't care, honestly. Raise the price on the costume sets. Put some alternative different thing in lockboxes.
But this 'only lockbox' B.S. is getting absurd. When the walls comes down and CO is ashes, I won't touch a Cryptic game even if it comes with 2 free naked women and bacon if this is their 'new business practice'.
I'll judge this by the quality of whatever alerts and missions follow. A lot of eyes are on you, Cryptic North. Hope you can hit this one out of the park.
I'll judge this by the quality of whatever alerts and missions follow. A lot of eyes are on you, Cryptic North. Hope you can hit this one out of the park.
Yeah. I'm hoping that the ramp-up missions are compelling, or at least not silly little 3-minute missions.
Yeah. I'm hoping that the ramp-up missions are compelling, or at least not silly little 3-minute missions.
Just watch as they give us another Alert with a or several high level 'bosses' to defeat in less than ten seconds and say you only needed to last 2 to complete it so don't whine about it while you play it on lvl 30, again.
I doubt very much that they had a "Let's piss off all our customers" meeting where someone suggested to stop all the C Store stuff in favor of lockboxes that people hate, the ayes had it, and they all went home laughing.
I wish I could believe that they haven't, but Cryptic is making it very hard for me to do so.
I'd be more ok with the Lockboxes if there was an in game way, via a mission/daily, where you can earn one key per character. That way people who can't afford or don't want to risk real money at a chance to get something they like can still make an effort towards it.
I also have a hard time believing that the lockboxes are for sure on a separate loot table from other items in the game, since I have noticed the drop rates for many items all over the game have lowered a lot.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
100% in agreement. I came over from CoH in November of last year and love the freeform (and power armor), but it just doesn't seem to be much in terms of new content (outside of alerts). If there was a way for me to retain my ability to keep my freeforms (5 characters), then I'd kill my subscription.
if this is all they are going to add to CO from here on in then unlock my freeform characters. What do they need my subscription money when clearly they are relying on lock boxes almost entirely? In fact not being able to access all but two of my characters is a huge reason why I don't play this game. But having access to freeforms IS NOT ENOUGH to warrant a 15 dollar subscription, especially when you have an in-game store. Especially not for a game that is for all intents and purposes dead in the water.
All I know is that until I see some sign that they are actually going to produce MEANINGFUL content (i.e. not alerts, not these **** "events") I'm not spending a dime on this game. I don't even really play anymore because I'm disgusted with how cryptic chooses to handle this title.
And no, I don't play STO or NO. Actually, I think NO is, in general, pretty horrible and STO pretty much nickles and dimes you for every cent you're worth, even if you're already subbed, so I stopped playing that a year or two ago.
I have never seen a video game community, especially for an MMO, actively IGNORED by the developer for so long. The fact that they can't get somebody on here to put out the fires at all says a lot more to me about the state of this game and its expected "progress" than anything else.
TO me it simply says "your concerns are completely valid and are pretty much 100% on the money, but I don't want people to give up that last sliver of hope they have, so I'll just sit back and wait for everyone to quit out of disgust... At which point I can quietly, and with good reason, shut down this piece of **** to concentrate on more important IP's"
THE DEAFENING SILENCE FROM CRYPTIC SHOULD TELL US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW.
I'd be more ok with the Lockboxes if there was an in game way, via a mission/daily, where you can earn one key per character. That way people who can't afford or don't want to risk real money at a chance to get something they like can still make an effort towards it.
You can. It's called Questionite. You can convert it to Zen.
There's also keys on the Exchange Market that other people have bought and are selling.
Have you thought that maybe if they offered the same things in lockboxes that they do in the C Store, the lockboxes will not sell as much, and thus the game gets less funding, maybe enough to not sustain itself anymore? The whole point is to get people to pay more than 5 bucks for a costume set. And I'm willing to bet that this is the way it is, because without the lockboxes, the game wasn't making enough money.
I doubt very much that they had a "Let's piss off all our customers" meeting where someone suggested to stop all the C Store stuff in favor of lockboxes that people hate, the ayes had it, and they all went home laughing.
The way things are is due to necessity, not because they don't know what they're doing, or because they hate the players.
Trust me I'm in the same boat as you guys. I've spent a lot of money on this game, and would gladly spend a lot more if A - I liked the things they released and B - they released them in a way that I liked. I don't want to buy lockboxes, and it's due in part to my terrible-**** luck. It cost me about 60 bucks to get a Widow Grav Bike. In all those boxes I opened, I got nothing but Salvage, boosts, and mods.
So yeah, I don't like lockboxes, would spend a lot more money in the game, and I hate how things are being sold now. But unless some miracle happens and thousands of people start throwing money at the game, this is probably the logical course for the game, and we can all grin and bear it or go somewhere else.
you are making rather large leaps here between what info we have from trailturtle, that the keys are selling well, and that is well by co standards, and inferring that they are the only thing that was profitable for them. I can live in a world with lockboxes, p.t. barnum had a point about birthrates and all, but i dont think we necessarily have to assume that with lock-boxes they cant also put out costume sets new power sets or new content.
it is not how it is done in other mmos that have lockbox type systems and if co really believes that, then grinning and bearing it may not be much of a going concern for much longer. i am trying to get the word through the official channels, much like most of us that we dont want to have to leave co, that they can use lockboxes to fleece the gormless and real content for the savvy and we all win.
I dont want to walk away but will never, ever buy a key, I never bought a hero pack and i never bought whatever the sucker boxes were called in tera. but this is literally that last chance i am giving them, with that error whatever thing they are doing. I am begging them to turn away from putting all their hope in lockboxes and temp content, but im also prepared to walk away. e can either meet halfway or they can see how much revenue they can get from the diminishing number of players that will put up with this crap.
You may normally purchase a hamburger. Or pizza. Or ribs.
Now you are very, very hungry. I offer you 'random food item in a bag'.
You will buy the random food item in a bag, as you have no hamburger, pizza, or ribs option. Especially if that random food item in a bag comes with a chance to win a free t-shirt, some shoes, and free movie tickets. It does not mean you really like that food item in a bag at random. You are hungry, and you will buy it.
I could buy this analogy except for the fact that the customers here do have other options on how to spend their money that are not random.
A more apt analogy would be:
You do have a hamburger, pizza, and rib option, but if you want a new addition to the menu you can opt to buy random food item in a box.
or, if you really need something other than the items that have been on the menu for ages you can eat anywhere else without spending money on random food boxes...and yet you buy them anyway.
Hmm, maybe basic life necessity analogies really just dont work when talking about digital items in a computer game.
but i dont think we necessarily have to assume that with lock-boxes they cant also put out costume sets new power sets or new content.
I really doubt that its a matter of, "they can't also put out costume sets new power sets or new content," but rather that lockboxes likely produce a higher return on investment.
Currently the CO team is working on new powers for existing sets (telepathy and force) without any indication that they intend to introduce these through lockboxes. I have not particularly cared for the new content that has come out over the last few months but they are releasing new content (very sloooowly) as well.
So you are correct. We cannot assume that with lockboxes they cannot put out those other things as well because they have been releasing other things in addition to lockboxes to date.
i dont think we necessarily have to assume that with lock-boxes they cant also put out costume sets new power sets or new content.
They can't do both because the team is too small, and still learning the ropes. When they're only capable of putting out a limited amount of content, how do you think PWE is going to approve its distribution?
I am begging them to turn away from putting all their hope in lockboxes and temp content.
I'm perpetually amazed at the number of people who think that the temporary content is some sort of sneaky marketing scam that is somehow designed to steal more of our money.
THEY HAVE AN ALMOST COMPLETELY NEW SET OF DEVS.
If they roll out new permanent content, and something game-breaking slips through, they need it fixed IMMEDIATELY. Except that the devs are still new, so there's no guarantee that they can. If that happens, then the only fix is a rollback. Rolkbacks are BAD, because in most MMOs, the character data isn't backwards compatible, so they may have to rollback the characters to pre-patch backup.
By hooking the new content to the event code, if they break something, they just turn off the event, and reactivate it when it's fixed. No rollback, no lost character progress, much safer for the devs and the code base.
And the last event wasn't even temporary. The Forum Malvanum was added to the Custom Alert rotation. I'm a little disappointed that the race probably won't be included; I enjoyed it.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I could buy this analogy except for the fact that the customers here do have other options on how to spend their money that are not random.
A more apt analogy would be:
You do have a hamburger, pizza, and rib option, but if you want a new addition to the menu you can opt to buy random food item in a box.
or, if you really need something other than the items that have been on the menu for ages you can eat anywhere else without spending money on random food boxes...and yet you buy them anyway.
Hmm, maybe basic life necessity analogies really just dont work when talking about digital items in a computer game.
It's kind of a hyperbolic comparison anyway. What he's talking about are digital items that are available anytime and are not subject to expiration dates like food. Said food is also necessary for life whereas you could easily live without buying a single key. The only common factor is that you could get both for free if you tried; By asking a friend to get you something to eat or by buying the key off of someone in-game with globals respectively.
I need to spend my free zen on something! If they put more things in the store for me to buy that has nothing to do with keys or vehicles, I'd run out very fast and would have to put actual money into the game to get all the cool things I want that would be coming out.
Lets hope auras are cool enough to be comparable to costume sets and are available mostly through the store. Or maybe customizable visual parts for my vehicles would be nice.
Well I was a supporter of lockboxes, but after opening 250 boxes and getting 9 costumes pieces and no bike, the odds just seem like they are at BS numbers.
I really doubt that its a matter of, "they can't also put out costume sets new power sets or new content," but rather that lockboxes likely produce a higher return on investment.
Currently the CO team is working on new powers for existing sets (telepathy and force) without any indication that they intend to introduce these through lockboxes. I have not particularly cared for the new content that has come out over the last few months but they are releasing new content (very sloooowly) as well.
So you are correct. We cannot assume that with lockboxes they cannot put out those other things as well because they have been releasing other things in addition to lockboxes to date.
yes, we get the return on investment thing, the keys are a minimal investment of time on their part and since new cosmic keys are not required for new lockboxes, we get that. My point is that running a profitable business is also about maintaining customers and getting good word of mouth to replace natural loss of customers. doing the absolute bare minimum as they have for such a very long time is a great ay to scrimp by on cost on the short term and , as a cursory look at the forums can attest, it also destroys goodwill. there are more factors that one would hope they are looking at other than how much they can scrimp by on, and while no forums is ever unified on one idea of what they want, meaningfully interacting with their customers should show them that a lot of their long termers are just plain leaving, or are so sick of their treatment that they no longer are buying anything.
as for content they have been putting out, ok, i should have prefaced it with permanant, mistype on my part, still doesn't change the fact that we have had 2 new alerts, one short door mish, 2ish outdoor hunts and a sketchy race mission added in the last 9 months. that and they are finally finishing adding powers that they started nearly a year ago. even by fairly charitable standards, we are really going to say that they have been working on much more than lunchboxes?
as for bunnyman, plausible but still you are basing that on a lot of assumptions. not sure if a team that ran one mechanically successful game in the past with at least 6 months lead in time is assumed to be unable to patch bugs, particularly since we know that at the very least gentleman crush is back on the game and is familiar with the code. so yeah your statements are plaueseable, but are drawing inferences from the scant communications we have actually had from cryptic.
The plans for everything this year were probably at least rough drafted by the time the Ask Cryptic answers were released, early this year. Those plans indicated that everything this year would be released in the "event" format. Why would they do that? Because they were probably working on everything for this year right from the beginning.
Throwing away 6 months of work because someone said "ok, the team doesn't actually need this safety net, let's start from scratch so that it isn't built on that framework" would be stupid, and would just mean that we would get WORSE content, because it would still have the same deadline. So, we'd have really bad content that nobody would want to pkay. But it would be permanent! Yay?
(Aside: When City of Heroes closed, with Issue 24 a week or two away from launch, Positron revealed that they had work started - at least in the planning phases - on issues all the way up to 32. With 3-4 months between issues, they were working ahead 2+ years. That's pretty standard for the MMO industry. )
I'm not making assumptions about this game. I'm making reasonable inferrences based on how programming and businesses actually work, compounded with what I know is happening here.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
So in a nutshell, we have two confirmed devs working on the game: LordGar and Gentleman_Crush, since we have heard nothing substantial about this Cryptic North studio putting any significant development effort into this game. Because of this, we have no choice but to accept temporary events as the norm because either because there are only two devs working or the game, or because Cryptic North is just a bunch of incompetent newbies who just can't figure out the game code quick enough.
yes, we get the return on investment thing, the keys are a minimal investment of time on their part and since new cosmic keys are not required for new lockboxes, we get that..
The point was not a reference to whether or not keys are a minimal investment of time. The ROI reference was made because Cryptic (or PWE) must decide for each new item whether to put it into a lockbox or into the Z-Store. If a given item seems more likely to produce greater revenue (based on data that the company has access to but we do not) for the company/game by being put into a lockbox instead of the Z-store then the items go into lockboxes. This is determined by the players. The people that, as a group, control this aspect of the monetization of the game are those spending money on it.
I am positive that if lockbox keys produced little or no revenue they would go away.
Keys are not sold for their own sake, they are sold for the sake of whatever new shiny is in the most recent lockbox release. None of this is about the time investment to produce keys.
Ultimately even if CO was growing rapidly, new power sets, new playable content, new game modes, new features, etc..if purchasable items produced more revenue when sold through lockboxes than the store they would likely still be available through the boxes.
My point is that running a profitable business is also about maintaining customers and getting good word of mouth to replace natural loss of customers.
They tried that. It didnt work. Everyone pining for new costume sets in the C-Store, new permanent content, new power sets, new powers for existing sets, etc seem to be forgetting that Cryptic did all of that...and the game never really stopped its downward population spiral throughout any of it.
doing the absolute bare minimum as they have for such a very long time is a great ay to scrimp by on cost on the short term and , as a cursory look at the forums can attest, it also destroys goodwill. there are more factors that one would hope they are looking at other than how much they can scrimp by on, and while no forums is ever unified on one idea of what they want, meaningfully interacting with their customers should show them that a lot of their long termers are just plain leaving, or are so sick of their treatment that they no longer are buying anything.
There are what 20 frequent forumites now ? Many of them are LTSers. So should Cryptic base their business decision on a relative handful of individuals who bother to come to these forums or on those who have voted with their wallets by making lockboxes the better revenue generation model for the game and the company ?
You are absolutely right that Cryptic needs to listen to its player base, and that player base is saying yes to lockboxes.
as for content they have been putting out, ok, i should have prefaced it with permanant, mistype on my part, still doesn't change the fact that we have had 2 new alerts, one short door mish, 2ish outdoor hunts and a sketchy race mission added in the last 9 months. that and they are finally finishing adding powers that they started nearly a year ago. even by fairly charitable standards, we are really going to say that they have been working on much more than lunchboxes?
.
Nope. A step, barely, above maintenance mode. That, "step," is likely because revenue is sufficiently greater than operating cost to justify any dev investment at all. Cut that revenue stream to any significant degree (by selling new purchasables in a less efficient manner for example) and the game may no longer be on the plus side of that equation. "Not much," new content is more than, "no new content."
Keep in mind that they have not been working on new, "lunchboxes," they have been working on things to put into, "lunchboxes." The distinction is rather important. lockboxes are not a product, they are a means of monetizing a product.
Honestly I do not really think that the existence of lockboxes, or even their near monopoly on new purchasables, is the real issue here.
If there were new content, permanent, significant, high production value, content in the works...
If there were new powersets....
If there were new powers for existing sets...
If there were a high rate, and high caliber, of bug fixes....
...I don't think that there would be as much noise about it being funded through lockboxes and key sales.
On the other hand, if lockboxes were to go away tomorrow people would still be complaining about a lack of all of the above.
TLDR:
The company made a go at it with direct C-Store purchases rather than lockboxes.
It failed.
The company decided to try grab bags-then lockboxes.
They tried that. It didnt work. Everyone pining for new costume sets in the C-Store, new permanent content, new power sets, new powers for existing sets, etc seem to be forgetting that Cryptic did all of that...and the game never really stopped its downward population spiral throughout any of it.
The core problem is that the game was released with very little content compared to the other titles out there. Using an estimate that I think is fair: All of the initial game's content could be completed within a span of three months, and it wasn't impossible to do it in less than three.
When the Marvel Online project was suddenly canned in Feb '08, Cryptic had just a year and a half to put out CO. That's an absurdly short development time for a MMO including beta-testing. Assuming that the CO engine was originally meant for Marvel Online, they'd still have to overhaul the whole thing, like redo character models, playable content and environments. It doesn't surprise me that there was a rather small amount of content available at launch when I learned of that fact.
It took them a whole year to put out Vibora Bay as their first content addition. By that time I'm pretty sure it was far too late. You don't release new costume sets and powers and expect them to sell like hotcakes when people already find the game absolutely stale and have quit. It's not like those C-store items came out that quickly after launch either. A number of us die-hards have gladly purchased these items and then some over the years, but relying on us die-hards to make the difference doesn't work.
Lockboxes are how they pay for new lockboxes. I dont have a problem with that, because I dont have to buy them, but I still get to play the new lockboxes.
Fixed that for you for accuracy.
Unless you somehow want to claim flying through rings is new content.
How about they do like STO and release both? In STO, there are cool new ships released via lockboxes AND cool new ships released in the C-Store. STO still releases ships and *costumes* to the C-store. It's not either/or over there. They have added vehicles to the store, not to discount that. But what about new costume sets or powersets?
Yes, we can see the logic from the sales side of things--for those who have more dollars than sense. I don't have the money to throw away on junk lockboxes in the hopes of getting something I actually want.
When I pay for something, I want to *know* exactly what it is that I am getting. I played the lockbox game for a while and received nothing of value to me.
I'd also point out the other large difference is everything worthwhile that drops from STO Lockboxes can be bought from the auction house for a decently reasonable sum, because you're allowed to list lockbox ships on the AH.
I don't think anything that drops from lockboxes is Bind on Pickup... at least not very recently. I know the Freeform slot was, can't think of any others off the top of my head.
I don't think anything that drops from lockboxes is Bind on Pickup... at least not very recently. I know the Freeform slot was, can't think of any others off the top of my head.
I see what you're getting at, and it's 'You can buy them from other players at the AH'...right?
Problem. Our economy is insane.
Silvers can't carry more than 250G. So when people are selling costume parts for 1000G+... it's kinda hard.
Silvers can turn Gs into keys. Many of them already do.
It's makeshift solution which makes silver players very vulnerable for scammers.
This global limit is another proof how lazy Cryptic is considering CO. Compared to STO, where silver can lift this limit via Z-Store.
It also means that silver players, and right now they are quite large part of playerbase, including golds who dropped subscription (because why pay Cryptic for this game?) have no interest in selling things on AH.
It only contributes more to CO sick economy.
It's also a very interesting paradox, as game seems to be less and less oriented towards rewarding subscribers.
But Cryptic is very good at their unique approach to logic. :P
Silvers can turn Gs into keys. Many of them already do.
Not a solution to the concern. At all. A solution would be an option to raise the global limit or something along those lines.
Seriously, can I get a job at Cryptic? I'd love to have a career where all my customers' concerns were addressed by other customers. No matter what I produce, I'd always have someone there to make an apologetic excuse for me and aggressively defend my flaws. I could do whatever I wanted.
If keys are the best selling item of anything that has ever come out and they were coming out with content regularly on subscriptions and Z store items before, how are they not producing more content than ever before from these key sales?
Its because they are making so much money from this little investment into the game that they can't be bothered to make content anymore. Temporary events look good on paper even though they are actually **** compared to real permanent updates when you actually play them.
If keys are the best selling item of anything that has ever come out and they were coming out with content regularly on subscriptions and Z store items before, how are they not producing more content than ever before from these key sales?
Its because they are making so much money from this little investment into the game that they can't be bothered to make content anymore. Temporary events look good on paper even though they are actually **** compared to real permanent updates when you actually play them.
Yeah, it would seem that the "successful sales" from lockboxes are only enough to keep the game running. Because if they were actually so phenomenal, we certainly would be getting the real sort of content that STO's been getting.
Yeah, it would seem that the "successful sales" from lockboxes are only enough to keep the game running. Because if they were actually so phenomenal, we certainly would be getting the real sort of content that STO's been getting.
Not phenomenal. Just enough to keep the game sustaining itself (keys in addition to everything else they're selling).
It's possible that with keys and a very small development team, it's the first time the game has kept its head above water. This is complete speculation, obviously. But there' has to be a reason other than "This game is making too much money. Let's cut out a bunch of stuff and all our developers and make the game an embarrassment to our name!"
Right, and I wasn't blasting you- but I kinda thought that's what you were hinting at.
right. But as they others pointed out. the difference between STO and CO in that regard is on STO, if I want a fancy Federation timeship for my romulan, alls I have to do is farm up just enough dilithium (questionite) to earn 500 zen, go unlock my currency cap to be on par with subscribers, then go farm the energy credits (IE, ingame currency)
to buy it off the AH.
CO, I get to stare at it in the AH because I capped out at 250G at level 15 and the cheapest ones are triple that.
Not to mention, Lockboxes arent quite as annoying on STO because we get regular huge infusions of free content along with them.
Not to mention, Lockboxes arent quite as annoying on STO because we get regular huge infusions of free content along with them.
How are people still saying this? STO gets updates, features, content, store items and expansions with their lockboxes. CO gets 15 minutes tops per box and its gone in two weeks.
How are people still saying this? STO gets updates, features, content, store items and expansions with their lockboxes. CO gets 15 minutes tops per box and its gone in two weeks.
I think when he(?) said "we", he(?) meant "STO players".
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
How are people still saying this? STO gets updates, features, content, store items and expansions with their lockboxes. CO gets 15 minutes tops per box and its gone in two weeks.
thats what I was saying. I mainly play STO.
There, a lockbox is simply part of a far larger update.
here, on CO that i used to play back in the day, a lockbox IS the entire update.
Lockboxes in STO, despite being a huge sale, are definitely a mere afterthought to players there specifically because of everything else they get. I just wished CO was actually feeling the sales it makes from its own keys.
There, a lockbox is simply part of a far larger update.
here, on CO that i used to play back in the day, a lockbox IS the entire update.
Unfortunately true.
What we've been getting lately is filler at best. A minimal effort to say, "hey guys, it's not all about the lockboxes". So if lockboxes are so profitable, why has this last year not offered much of anything new? Don't answer that, because we all know the answer (NWO, yadda, yadda). I'm just trying to prove a point.
Do you remember when we were getting things like power review/updates and store costume sets every once in awhile? Even the little things have been MIA this last year. I started playing this game shortly after launch, and even though CO has had it's dry spells here and there, this last year has been flatline for the most part. That's pretty bad coming from a guy like me, who has kept playing (and loving) this game while friends and other players bailed long ago because they didn't feel the game had much to offer.
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What about the Halloween grab bag? The only thing you were guaranteed is that they weren't empty. Cursed grab bag didn't guarantee any costumes or special items either. By your definition then, you can't compare any grab bag to each other because they're apples, oranges, and grapes.
I said they're working off of lockbox money because that's what makes the most money. We've been told that by Trailturtle, and I'm inclined to believe him, since he knows more about that stuff than you or I or anyone else here knows.
I don't think I said that they're the ONLY things that are selling. I think you took what I said about a hypothetical situation a bit too literally (we don't know for sure that they're running a skeleton crew, or just one guy, or a dozen Cryptic North guys, or whatever else).
Unless you know that anything else sold better than the lockboxes, I'm not sure where you're really going with that.
Now you are very, very hungry. I offer you 'random food item in a bag'.
You will buy the random food item in a bag, as you have no hamburger, pizza, or ribs option. Especially if that random food item in a bag comes with a chance to win a free t-shirt, some shoes, and free movie tickets. It does not mean you really like that food item in a bag at random. You are hungry, and you will buy it.
That's actually pretty apt.
However, it's quite plain from the fact that they're still selling them that other people have. Not you, not me, not a lot of people in the forums - but, apparently, a lot of people not in the forums, which, let's be honest, is by far the larger set.
I dislike the lockboxes intensely - but I can hardly fault Cryptic for acting like a corporation, and trying to make money the most efficient way they can. It's not like there are Bangladeshi orphans laboring overtime in a sweatshop to manufacture those keys or anything...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Good. I applaud this self-control. And I'm not being condescending, I mean it. If everyone did this, then things would change.
My problem isn't 'Lockboxes'. My problem is 'ONLY LOCKBOXES'. I think no one would give a damn if they sold lockboxes and then other stuff outright.
All I know is that until I see some sign that they are actually going to produce MEANINGFUL content (i.e. not alerts, not these **** "events") I'm not spending a dime on this game. I don't even really play anymore because I'm disgusted with how cryptic chooses to handle this title.
And no, I don't play STO or NO. Actually, I think NO is, in general, pretty horrible and STO pretty much nickles and dimes you for every cent you're worth, even if you're already subbed, so I stopped playing that a year or two ago.
I have never seen a video game community, especially for an MMO, actively IGNORED by the developer for so long. The fact that they can't get somebody on here to put out the fires at all says a lot more to me about the state of this game and its expected "progress" than anything else.
TO me it simply says "your concerns are completely valid and are pretty much 100% on the money, but I don't want people to give up that last sliver of hope they have, so I'll just sit back and wait for everyone to quit out of disgust... At which point I can quietly, and with good reason, shut down this piece of **** to concentrate on more important IP's"
THE DEAFENING SILENCE FROM CRYPTIC SHOULD TELL US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW.
(sorry hit capslock)
Awesome, new analogies.
Have you thought that maybe if they offered the same things in lockboxes that they do in the C Store, the lockboxes will not sell as much, and thus the game gets less funding, maybe enough to not sustain itself anymore? The whole point is to get people to pay more than 5 bucks for a costume set. And I'm willing to bet that this is the way it is, because without the lockboxes, the game wasn't making enough money.
I doubt very much that they had a "Let's piss off all our customers" meeting where someone suggested to stop all the C Store stuff in favor of lockboxes that people hate, the ayes had it, and they all went home laughing.
The way things are is due to necessity, not because they don't know what they're doing, or because they hate the players.
Trust me I'm in the same boat as you guys. I've spent a lot of money on this game, and would gladly spend a lot more if A - I liked the things they released and B - they released them in a way that I liked. I don't want to buy lockboxes, and it's due in part to my terrible-**** luck. It cost me about 60 bucks to get a Widow Grav Bike. In all those boxes I opened, I got nothing but Salvage, boosts, and mods.
So yeah, I don't like lockboxes, would spend a lot more money in the game, and I hate how things are being sold now. But unless some miracle happens and thousands of people start throwing money at the game, this is probably the logical course for the game, and we can all grin and bear it or go somewhere else.
I don't care, honestly. Raise the price on the costume sets. Put some alternative different thing in lockboxes.
But this 'only lockbox' B.S. is getting absurd. When the walls comes down and CO is ashes, I won't touch a Cryptic game even if it comes with 2 free naked women and bacon if this is their 'new business practice'.
Yeah. I'm hoping that the ramp-up missions are compelling, or at least not silly little 3-minute missions.
Just watch as they give us another Alert with a or several high level 'bosses' to defeat in less than ten seconds and say you only needed to last 2 to complete it so don't whine about it while you play it on lvl 30, again.
I wish I could believe that they haven't, but Cryptic is making it very hard for me to do so.
I also have a hard time believing that the lockboxes are for sure on a separate loot table from other items in the game, since I have noticed the drop rates for many items all over the game have lowered a lot.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
You can. It's called Questionite. You can convert it to Zen.
There's also keys on the Exchange Market that other people have bought and are selling.
it is not how it is done in other mmos that have lockbox type systems and if co really believes that, then grinning and bearing it may not be much of a going concern for much longer. i am trying to get the word through the official channels, much like most of us that we dont want to have to leave co, that they can use lockboxes to fleece the gormless and real content for the savvy and we all win.
I dont want to walk away but will never, ever buy a key, I never bought a hero pack and i never bought whatever the sucker boxes were called in tera. but this is literally that last chance i am giving them, with that error whatever thing they are doing. I am begging them to turn away from putting all their hope in lockboxes and temp content, but im also prepared to walk away. e can either meet halfway or they can see how much revenue they can get from the diminishing number of players that will put up with this crap.
I could buy this analogy except for the fact that the customers here do have other options on how to spend their money that are not random.
A more apt analogy would be:
You do have a hamburger, pizza, and rib option, but if you want a new addition to the menu you can opt to buy random food item in a box.
or, if you really need something other than the items that have been on the menu for ages you can eat anywhere else without spending money on random food boxes...and yet you buy them anyway.
Hmm, maybe basic life necessity analogies really just dont work when talking about digital items in a computer game.
I really doubt that its a matter of, "they can't also put out costume sets new power sets or new content," but rather that lockboxes likely produce a higher return on investment.
Currently the CO team is working on new powers for existing sets (telepathy and force) without any indication that they intend to introduce these through lockboxes. I have not particularly cared for the new content that has come out over the last few months but they are releasing new content (very sloooowly) as well.
So you are correct. We cannot assume that with lockboxes they cannot put out those other things as well because they have been releasing other things in addition to lockboxes to date.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
They can't do both because the team is too small, and still learning the ropes. When they're only capable of putting out a limited amount of content, how do you think PWE is going to approve its distribution?
I'm perpetually amazed at the number of people who think that the temporary content is some sort of sneaky marketing scam that is somehow designed to steal more of our money.
THEY HAVE AN ALMOST COMPLETELY NEW SET OF DEVS.
If they roll out new permanent content, and something game-breaking slips through, they need it fixed IMMEDIATELY. Except that the devs are still new, so there's no guarantee that they can. If that happens, then the only fix is a rollback. Rolkbacks are BAD, because in most MMOs, the character data isn't backwards compatible, so they may have to rollback the characters to pre-patch backup.
By hooking the new content to the event code, if they break something, they just turn off the event, and reactivate it when it's fixed. No rollback, no lost character progress, much safer for the devs and the code base.
And the last event wasn't even temporary. The Forum Malvanum was added to the Custom Alert rotation. I'm a little disappointed that the race probably won't be included; I enjoyed it.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
It's kind of a hyperbolic comparison anyway. What he's talking about are digital items that are available anytime and are not subject to expiration dates like food. Said food is also necessary for life whereas you could easily live without buying a single key. The only common factor is that you could get both for free if you tried; By asking a friend to get you something to eat or by buying the key off of someone in-game with globals respectively.
I don't 'have' to do anything. It's not a bill or legal obligation.
I just don't want what I WANT shifted exclusively to a gambling method when I could purchase it before.
Lets hope auras are cool enough to be comparable to costume sets and are available mostly through the store. Or maybe customizable visual parts for my vehicles would be nice.
I learned my lesson, only can blame myself.
as for content they have been putting out, ok, i should have prefaced it with permanant, mistype on my part, still doesn't change the fact that we have had 2 new alerts, one short door mish, 2ish outdoor hunts and a sketchy race mission added in the last 9 months. that and they are finally finishing adding powers that they started nearly a year ago. even by fairly charitable standards, we are really going to say that they have been working on much more than lunchboxes?
as for bunnyman, plausible but still you are basing that on a lot of assumptions. not sure if a team that ran one mechanically successful game in the past with at least 6 months lead in time is assumed to be unable to patch bugs, particularly since we know that at the very least gentleman crush is back on the game and is familiar with the code. so yeah your statements are plaueseable, but are drawing inferences from the scant communications we have actually had from cryptic.
Throwing away 6 months of work because someone said "ok, the team doesn't actually need this safety net, let's start from scratch so that it isn't built on that framework" would be stupid, and would just mean that we would get WORSE content, because it would still have the same deadline. So, we'd have really bad content that nobody would want to pkay. But it would be permanent! Yay?
(Aside: When City of Heroes closed, with Issue 24 a week or two away from launch, Positron revealed that they had work started - at least in the planning phases - on issues all the way up to 32. With 3-4 months between issues, they were working ahead 2+ years. That's pretty standard for the MMO industry. )
I'm not making assumptions about this game. I'm making reasonable inferrences based on how programming and businesses actually work, compounded with what I know is happening here.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I feel much better knowing that now.
The point was not a reference to whether or not keys are a minimal investment of time. The ROI reference was made because Cryptic (or PWE) must decide for each new item whether to put it into a lockbox or into the Z-Store. If a given item seems more likely to produce greater revenue (based on data that the company has access to but we do not) for the company/game by being put into a lockbox instead of the Z-store then the items go into lockboxes. This is determined by the players. The people that, as a group, control this aspect of the monetization of the game are those spending money on it.
I am positive that if lockbox keys produced little or no revenue they would go away.
Keys are not sold for their own sake, they are sold for the sake of whatever new shiny is in the most recent lockbox release. None of this is about the time investment to produce keys.
Ultimately even if CO was growing rapidly, new power sets, new playable content, new game modes, new features, etc..if purchasable items produced more revenue when sold through lockboxes than the store they would likely still be available through the boxes.
They tried that. It didnt work. Everyone pining for new costume sets in the C-Store, new permanent content, new power sets, new powers for existing sets, etc seem to be forgetting that Cryptic did all of that...and the game never really stopped its downward population spiral throughout any of it.
There are what 20 frequent forumites now ? Many of them are LTSers. So should Cryptic base their business decision on a relative handful of individuals who bother to come to these forums or on those who have voted with their wallets by making lockboxes the better revenue generation model for the game and the company ?
You are absolutely right that Cryptic needs to listen to its player base, and that player base is saying yes to lockboxes.
Nope. A step, barely, above maintenance mode. That, "step," is likely because revenue is sufficiently greater than operating cost to justify any dev investment at all. Cut that revenue stream to any significant degree (by selling new purchasables in a less efficient manner for example) and the game may no longer be on the plus side of that equation. "Not much," new content is more than, "no new content."
Keep in mind that they have not been working on new, "lunchboxes," they have been working on things to put into, "lunchboxes." The distinction is rather important. lockboxes are not a product, they are a means of monetizing a product.
Honestly I do not really think that the existence of lockboxes, or even their near monopoly on new purchasables, is the real issue here.
If there were new content, permanent, significant, high production value, content in the works...
If there were new powersets....
If there were new powers for existing sets...
If there were a high rate, and high caliber, of bug fixes....
...I don't think that there would be as much noise about it being funded through lockboxes and key sales.
On the other hand, if lockboxes were to go away tomorrow people would still be complaining about a lack of all of the above.
TLDR:
The company made a go at it with direct C-Store purchases rather than lockboxes.
It failed.
The company decided to try grab bags-then lockboxes.
It didnt fail as much.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The core problem is that the game was released with very little content compared to the other titles out there. Using an estimate that I think is fair: All of the initial game's content could be completed within a span of three months, and it wasn't impossible to do it in less than three.
When the Marvel Online project was suddenly canned in Feb '08, Cryptic had just a year and a half to put out CO. That's an absurdly short development time for a MMO including beta-testing. Assuming that the CO engine was originally meant for Marvel Online, they'd still have to overhaul the whole thing, like redo character models, playable content and environments. It doesn't surprise me that there was a rather small amount of content available at launch when I learned of that fact.
It took them a whole year to put out Vibora Bay as their first content addition. By that time I'm pretty sure it was far too late. You don't release new costume sets and powers and expect them to sell like hotcakes when people already find the game absolutely stale and have quit. It's not like those C-store items came out that quickly after launch either. A number of us die-hards have gladly purchased these items and then some over the years, but relying on us die-hards to make the difference doesn't work.
So that's that. Rant over.
Fixed that for you for accuracy.
Unless you somehow want to claim flying through rings is new content.
I'd also point out the other large difference is everything worthwhile that drops from STO Lockboxes can be bought from the auction house for a decently reasonable sum, because you're allowed to list lockbox ships on the AH.
I see what you're getting at, and it's 'You can buy them from other players at the AH'...right?
Problem. Our economy is insane.
Silvers can't carry more than 250G. So when people are selling costume parts for 1000G+... it's kinda hard.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
It's makeshift solution which makes silver players very vulnerable for scammers.
This global limit is another proof how lazy Cryptic is considering CO. Compared to STO, where silver can lift this limit via Z-Store.
It also means that silver players, and right now they are quite large part of playerbase, including golds who dropped subscription (because why pay Cryptic for this game?) have no interest in selling things on AH.
It only contributes more to CO sick economy.
It's also a very interesting paradox, as game seems to be less and less oriented towards rewarding subscribers.
But Cryptic is very good at their unique approach to logic. :P
Not a solution to the concern. At all. A solution would be an option to raise the global limit or something along those lines.
Seriously, can I get a job at Cryptic? I'd love to have a career where all my customers' concerns were addressed by other customers. No matter what I produce, I'd always have someone there to make an apologetic excuse for me and aggressively defend my flaws. I could do whatever I wanted.
Was just responding to the comment above mine. No subtext or anything.
Right, and I wasn't blasting you- but I kinda thought that's what you were hinting at.
Its because they are making so much money from this little investment into the game that they can't be bothered to make content anymore. Temporary events look good on paper even though they are actually **** compared to real permanent updates when you actually play them.
Yeah, it would seem that the "successful sales" from lockboxes are only enough to keep the game running. Because if they were actually so phenomenal, we certainly would be getting the real sort of content that STO's been getting.
Not phenomenal. Just enough to keep the game sustaining itself (keys in addition to everything else they're selling).
It's possible that with keys and a very small development team, it's the first time the game has kept its head above water. This is complete speculation, obviously. But there' has to be a reason other than "This game is making too much money. Let's cut out a bunch of stuff and all our developers and make the game an embarrassment to our name!"
I'm betting you're going to be horribly unrewarded for your hope.
right. But as they others pointed out. the difference between STO and CO in that regard is on STO, if I want a fancy Federation timeship for my romulan, alls I have to do is farm up just enough dilithium (questionite) to earn 500 zen, go unlock my currency cap to be on par with subscribers, then go farm the energy credits (IE, ingame currency)
to buy it off the AH.
CO, I get to stare at it in the AH because I capped out at 250G at level 15 and the cheapest ones are triple that.
Not to mention, Lockboxes arent quite as annoying on STO because we get regular huge infusions of free content along with them.
How are people still saying this? STO gets updates, features, content, store items and expansions with their lockboxes. CO gets 15 minutes tops per box and its gone in two weeks.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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thats what I was saying. I mainly play STO.
There, a lockbox is simply part of a far larger update.
here, on CO that i used to play back in the day, a lockbox IS the entire update.
Lockboxes in STO, despite being a huge sale, are definitely a mere afterthought to players there specifically because of everything else they get. I just wished CO was actually feeling the sales it makes from its own keys.
Unfortunately true.
What we've been getting lately is filler at best. A minimal effort to say, "hey guys, it's not all about the lockboxes". So if lockboxes are so profitable, why has this last year not offered much of anything new? Don't answer that, because we all know the answer (NWO, yadda, yadda). I'm just trying to prove a point.
Do you remember when we were getting things like power review/updates and store costume sets every once in awhile? Even the little things have been MIA this last year. I started playing this game shortly after launch, and even though CO has had it's dry spells here and there, this last year has been flatline for the most part. That's pretty bad coming from a guy like me, who has kept playing (and loving) this game while friends and other players bailed long ago because they didn't feel the game had much to offer.