I do take this nerf quite personally because while I do not claim credit for using revitalise to cooldown actives, I dare say I was the first who put radiance with revitalize and synergize it with the various actives for a build that can work with EB spam.
Sorry, but no. People were doing that when it was originally on PTS, before the 2-second ICD was put into place. And again after it went live with the 2-second ICD. It just didn't become super-popular right off the bat, probably because there were so many other new shinies.
It's a quick logical leap from "oh, I want to use my EB all the time" to "oh, I want an EB that I can use even when I don't have anything to target". Same line of thinking that pairs up Conviction with MSA, really.
Not saying this doesn't suck for you (and everyone else that spent time putting together builds reliant on it), but it's still a damned powerful spec even with a 6-second ICD.
It shouldn't have been released with merely a 2-second ICD, but it didn't really begin to show up as the huge issue we knew it had the potential to be until they started releasing the legacy devices.
And, cheap plug: I do believe I said in my Spec Tree guide that it needed "quality time with the nerf bat" and it was "the most broken spec in the game", waaay back in April or so of last year. Yes, I'm quoting myself. It's late here and I'm tired. Also, I really need to get around to fixing the formatting on that damned thing, at some point.
But anyway. The reason why it's just getting nerfed now is because Neverwinter's live (Okay, "Open Beta"...) and Crush was able to pick the locks chaining him to his NW desk for a bit.
Am I missing something or is Redirected Force much like the advantage on Empathic Healing which practically no one uses because it's a pain to make work correctly for too little benefit?
Unlike Empathic Healing, I thought (refuse to test now) the buff aided teammates that are affected as well.. they will get much more use of the buffs than the caster biensure.
Also unlike Empathic Healing Redirected Force is not Telepathy and thus isn't worth the man hours of PTS time/money spent by me
Sorry, but no. People were doing that when it was originally on PTS, before the 2-second ICD was put into place. And again after it went live with the 2-second ICD. It just didn't become super-popular right off the bat, probably because there were so many other new shinies.
It's a quick logical leap from "oh, I want to use my EB all the time" to "oh, I want an EB that I can use even when I don't have anything to target". Same line of thinking that pairs up Conviction with MSA, really.
Not saying this doesn't suck for you (and everyone else that spent time putting together builds reliant on it), but it's still a damned powerful spec even with a 6-second ICD.
It shouldn't have been released with merely a 2-second ICD, but it didn't really begin to show up as the huge issue we knew it had the potential to be until they started releasing the legacy devices.
And, cheap plug: I do believe I said in my Spec Tree guide that it needed "quality time with the nerf bat" and it was "the most broken spec in the game", waaay back in April or so of last year. Yes, I'm quoting myself. It's late here and I'm tired. Also, I really need to get around to fixing the formatting on that damned thing, at some point.
But anyway. The reason why it's just getting nerfed now is because Neverwinter's live (Okay, "Open Beta"...) and Crush was able to pick the locks chaining him to his NW desk for a bit.
If you are referring to using energy builder then yes that was how revitalize works hence people will use their energy builder but to use an energy builder all the time requires a target and no one actually thought of using radiance on self even though it was a natural step for you.
A 6 second ICD will make it quite worthless. Just let it go to live and see how many people will still use it as it is there are already so few adopters compared to all the other builds which are popping up repeatedly that I keep pointing out. I don't really care too much anymore because I am pretty assured the devs will let it through and I am quite ready to move off the game.
As you mentioned the impact was not felt until the legacy devices. So which one in particular are yout referring to? Eruption I supposed. Did it occur to you then the issue is not revitalize and rather the legacy devices. However we know Cryptic will not touch them because they cost players money and so many players have forked out money to get them that if they did there will be a major repercussion.
You mentioned G Crush return as something to be happy about. I guess coming from the perspective of having a dev is better than no dev that may be true but think about how many OP and broken stuff came with him. I did not really want to bring it in perhaps he is not familiar with the system and the balance of CO but let me put them up for you to think about even though I am sure you know all of them.
Imbue was changed drastically to something that did not function as it was originally intended with reason being they cannot fix it right. Throwing blade can be spam without energy consumption in ridiculously short time with tap and block, gas pellets were critting and instead of an aoe could have all 8 pellets damaging the target if concentrated or if enemy is large, shadowstrike hits for ridiculous amount of damage even without smoke grenade and with that thrown in it is even more spectacular, strafing run has become a.popular choice amongst pvper because of the high damage and short cooldown, ricochet throw does huge damage with low energy cost, 2gm has become another favourite pvp power overshadowing any other tier 2 powers, the new telepathy set puts out numbers only fan boys approves of and of course legacy devices. I have such incredible faith in the devs now.
Sympathy? Naahh, not asking for sympathy or empathy. Just voicing my opinions. I admire your persistent to keep going down the road but not for me. This will be once too many. If other mmo does the same and they do it after months of inactivity and players have spent lots of time and money on it then it is a good thing I do not intend to switch to other mmos not one by cryptic in any case. So revitalize cannot be a build to revolve around but devour essence and 2gm can? Interesting.
The maintain prevents any other actions (except PA toggles).
The bonus damage only lasts 4 seconds which makes it very difficult for support characters to make use of it as they'll likely be bubbling/healing instead of attacking after maintaining Redirected Force for some time (assuming they even have the energy to do so).
The resistance is decent, especially since it's in its own layer, but I have to wonder in which circumstances the power would be best used. Since it's a maintain you can't use it in situations where you need to block, yet that would be the best time to make use of the extra damage reduction.
Am I missing something or is Redirected Force much like the advantage on Empathic Healing which practically no one uses because it's a pain to make work correctly for too little benefit?
We're seeing the beginning of a focus on power direction where there are multiple strategies for powers for different builds other than just statistical strategic ones. Redirected Force can primarily be used for healers/support toons. But its also for other toons who want to aid their allies in a dire situation and then get a spike of damage with whatever they use once they switch back to the offensive.
Which is why I think this power should boost ALL physical damage (including melee). Imagine melee focused builds being able to do something other than nothing while running to their targets, then hit those targets with a spike of damage. It could be a way to keep up with range builds when it comes to competing with DPS or even holding agro while tanking.
DON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT IT!
The FF character I mention, Use PFF!
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Which is why I think this power should boost ALL physical damage (including melee). Imagine melee focused builds being able to do something other than nothing while running to their targets, then hit those targets with a spike of damage. It could be a way to keep up with range builds when it comes to competing with DPS or even holding agro while tanking.
So revitalize cannot be a build to revolve around but devour essence and 2gm can? Interesting.
Revitalize is still strong enough to be the centerpiece of a build even with the increased cooldown. And I'd argue that a power should pretty much always be strong enough to be the central focus of a build, over a spec. Specs are numbers padding and minor additional effects, except in the case of Revitalize. Even the Aggressive Stance/The Best Defense combo is just number padding. There's nothing special or unique that high offense/defense brings to a build. And being locked into two spec trees for that combo is still weaker than what you can do by being locked into one spec tree and an energy builder to spam Revitalize with any cooldown power or device.
Since you mentioned Imbue...This change is an entirely different animal from the Imbue change. It's not changing how the core of the spec works, it's just toning it down to something more like reasonable levels.
Imbue? Builds that worked with old Imbue literally will not work with new Imbue. You have to stat differently and take different attacks. Since Imbue's an AO now, single-hit large-damage chargeups aren't as useful as maintains that benefit from the duration of the buff.
Former alpha-strike builds focused around cooldown reduction and stacking damage buffs now need to regear for crit chance and take damage to fully use Imbue. It's easier to just go with crits and swap to a maintain instead of trying to make the old build work. Which, in the example I'm using, means that my Gigabolt spiker gets shelved until I feel like refarming the gear and redoing his build to make him work again.
100-plus days in, I still haven't done that.
Getting a power nerfed after you've built around it always sucks, but at least in this case you aren't losing the core functionality of the build.
And I didn't say this "became" an issue with the Legacy devices. It was always an issue, it just didn't become visible-enough to anyone (other than the PTS testers who originally raged against it) until it became coupled with device use. People don't notice near-perma ADs/AOs as much as they notice Eruption spam and dino spam. But both are pretty bad for the game.
As for Crush and OP powers...
He's fixing Shadow Strike and Gas Pellets. Throwing Blades spam is clearly a bug that needs to be fixed (but it ties in with the block mechanics, which is why it isn't fixed yet). Ricochet Throw and 2GM could stand to be adjusted downward in damage (I'd suggest lowering the bounce damage on RT and just nerfing 2GM's damage to make it comparable with, say, Lightning Arc. Don't add cooldowns), as could some of the new Telepathy powers (but Telepathy needs something to deal with flat reduction, in exchange).
On Alert completely broke most of the game's balance anyway, but since we aren't going to get anything close to a full, comprehensive powers pass, they're going after the outliers. Those that have the highest likelihood to be fixed in a short amount of time when all you have access to change is powers. Not devices, not enemy encounters, just powers.
Would you feel better about this change if, instead of increasing the ICD, they made it so you have to do damage (to either a shield or health) to proc Revitalize?
Would you feel better about this change if, instead of increasing the ICD, they made it so you have to do damage (to either a shield or health) to proc Revitalize?
Why not make it so that it triggers when your energy builder gives you energy instead of when it's used?
Then, Radiance targeted on yourself or an ally with full health won't proc Revitalize, nor would spamming your energy builder on an object. It also wouldn't proc if you were spamming your EB while at full energy. But at any other time, it will work as it does now.
Unintended behavior eliminated, intended behavior left un-nerfed.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
The maintain prevents any other actions (except PA toggles).
The bonus damage only lasts 4 seconds which makes it very difficult for support characters to make use of it as they'll likely be bubbling/healing instead of attacking after maintaining Redirected Force for some time (assuming they even have the energy to do so).
The resistance is decent, especially since it's in its own layer, but I have to wonder in which circumstances the power would be best used. Since it's a maintain you can't use it in situations where you need to block, yet that would be the best time to make use of the extra damage reduction.
Am I missing something or is Redirected Force much like the advantage on Empathic Healing which practically no one uses because it's a pain to make work correctly for too little benefit?
Well, the thing is...I was under the assumption that ALL shielded got a boost too, because since the boost lasts 4 secs, I'm pretty sure it would be a waste trying to pull off a Force Cascade barrage in that time frame or something, especially when this is being used/ designed for support toons.
I reckon that a few things need to change before it hitting LIVE:
1- It should be able to work with Force Powers, so that whilst having it maintained I can fire off Force Bolts, Blast, Cascade etc.
2- PA toggles shouldn't have the maintain advantage over other powersets in conjunction with this power
3-It needs a name change, seriously. Call it Force Field, Force Barrier, hell even Force Force lol, just something reminiscent of what its meant to be rather than Redirected Force, you aren't even redirecting anything.
4-I'd like it if we could trade up that damage buff for extra % mitigation. i.e. Rank1/2/3 = 15/20/25, but there would be a 2 point advantage called Redirected Force which grants that damage buff.
5- If we have to keep the damage buff as innate, allow all shielded to be affected by it, not just the caster, that way it not only pays off to be near the caster for defence reasons but also for damage buffs, so like a dual support function.
EDIT: Can we have it tagged as a Ranged Defense Buff Power? So that it benefits from cost reduction to ranged powers spec? It only seems fair IMO...especially when it has a high cost and its been modified..so please reduce cost more (I'd personally like to see it reduced...without having to butcher a few of my support builds to accommodate it)
Redirected is quite the energy consumer...and the advantage of the buff would be better utilized if all shielded got the buff, instead of just caster.
Before going LIVE:
- Allow the physical damage buff to affect shielded targets too
- Have this power tagged so it benefits properly from ranged power cost discount specs
- CHANGE DAT NAME! I suggest Force Barrier as a primary candidate for the rename.
- I would love for the graphic to be an AoE Shield (but I realise the issues with it, is there anyway it could be changed? I mean CoH was able to do it, right?)
f(t) = t0 - t - (t0 * 0.06) * ceiling(t / c), t >=0, f(t) >=0
t' = min(f(t)), 0 <= f(t) < t0 *0.06
h = (t0 - t') / t0
f(t): time remaining in cooldown, t0: power cooldown time after applying cooldown reduction, c: time between Revitalize trigger, t': adjusted cooldown time with Revitalize, h: cooldown reduction from Revitalize after cooldown reduction adjustments
(power cooldown time after applying cooldown reduction, cooldown time with Revitalize ICD: 6s, cooldown time with Revitalize ICD: 2s, percent change on cooldown time between Revitalize ICD: 2s and ICD: 6s, cooldown reduction from base with Revitalize ICD: 6s) Graph of 90s cooldown. (90, 46.8, 24, 95%, -92.3%) Graph of 60s cooldown. (60, 36, 20.4, 76.5%, -66.7%) Graph of 45s cooldown. (45, 30, 18, 66.7%, -50%) Graph of 30s cooldown. (30, 22.8, 15.6, 46.2%, -31.6%) Graph of 15s cooldown. (15, 12.3, 10, 23%, -22.0%)
Why not make it so that it triggers when your energy builder gives you energy instead of when it's used?
Then, Radiance targeted on yourself or an ally with full health won't proc Revitalize, nor would spamming your energy builder on an object. It also wouldn't proc if you were spamming your EB while at full energy. But at any other time, it will work as it does now.
Unintended behavior eliminated, intended behavior left un-nerfed.
Ugh, this is a super super small edge case that I've never seen anyone but myself use, but...
Wrist Bolters + Automated Assault adv. is how I proc Revitalize. It keeps firing even though I'm maintaining other toggles, but won't return me energy, so under your suggestion Revitalize will only proc for me in between firing rounds.
Which is still better than have a 6 second CD, okay, never mind.
>___> I actually checked PFF on LIVE vs PTS numbers...yew evil evil person...:biggrin:
I would have cried tears of blood, rolled some heads and then broken the power again.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
3-It needs a name change, seriously. Call it Force Field, Force Barrier, hell even Force Force lol, just something reminiscent of what its meant to be rather than Redirected Force, you aren't even redirecting anything.
I rather like the name.
You're redirecting the force of incoming attacks into your own attacks, for a few seconds.
"Force Barrier" or the like would be better for a real AoE bubble (like something that has shield HP, basically a dome-shaped Nimbus of Force or something).
f(t) = t0 - t - (t0 * 0.06) * ceiling(t / c), t >=0, f(t) >=0
t' = min(f(t)), 0 <= f(t) < t0 *0.06
h = (t0 - t') / t0
f(t): time remaining in cooldown, t0: cooldown reduction adjusted power cooldown, c: time between Revitalize trigger, t': adjusted cooldown time with Revitalize, h: cooldown reduction from Revitalize after cooldown reduction adjustments
(base: cooldown time after adjustment, cooldown time with Revitalize ICD: 6s, cooldown time with Revitalize ICD: 2s, percent change on cooldown time between Revitalize ICD: 2s and ICD: 6s, cooldown reduction from base with Revitalize ICD: 6s) Graph of 90s cooldown. (90, 46.8, 24, 95%, -92.3%) Graph of 60s cooldown. (60, 36, 20.4, 76.5%, -66.7%) Graph of 45s cooldown. (45, 30, 18, 66.7%, -50%) Graph of 30s cooldown. (30, 22.8, 15.6, 46.2%, -31.6%) Graph of 15s cooldown. (15, 12.3, 10, 23%, -22.0%)
Very nice but I do not think Revitalize works on the actual base cool down time. The calculation from my observations work on the cool down time after factoring all gear and intelligence. Meaning an original cooldown with 1min30sec whn after gear and intelligence could go to about 30 sec and revitalize is calculated using the 30 sec rather that the original 1min30sec. Hence changing the ICD from 2 to 6 seconds will make it quite useless altogether.
To sagewithbubble:
honestly I don't really care anymore what they are going to change revitalize to. If this goes live and my toon has to be rebuilt, well it just is not going to take place. I actually just got a friend to start playing but had to tell him not to go on because I am probably quitting. Simple reason, I do not care if you or devs or anyone feels whichever power is OP etc. I am not going to spend money and time to compensate post release nerfs anymore. I think my point about what was release my Crush is valid then. Until they are able to develop powers with proper balance before release then such post release nerfs will continue to take place. I feel this is like selling someone a 4G phone but later on release a firmware update which then disable the 4G capabilities to a 3G phone after the person also bought every single piece of accessory that goes with that phone and then release new phones with maybe 4G or similar features or better. Remember the prototype jets? Of course in this case we do not need to buy Revitalize but having to rank up impact prisms, int mods to R9 and buying all the devices that works with the current cooldown build easily cost a fortune be it in terms of globals or real money. It has reached the point that I do not even want to log in to the game now even though this has not gone live yet. It is just disillusioning to see something you spend so much time and effort building up get destroyed. There is no need to carry on with this discussion.
Very nice but I do not think Revitalize works on the actual base cool down time. The calculation from my observations work on the cool down time after factoring all gear and intelligence. Meaning an original cooldown with 1min30sec whn after gear and intelligence could go to about 30 sec and revitalize is calculated using the 30 sec rather that the original 1min30sec. Hence changing the ICD from 2 to 6 seconds will make it quite useless altogether.
Correct, Revitalize doesn't use base cooldown time, but Intelligence/Cooldown Reduction adjusted cooldown time, which is what the equation uses. Reworded the original post to make that more clear.
Correct, Revitalize doesn't use base cooldown time, but Intelligence/Cooldown Reduction adjusted cooldown time, which is what the equation uses. Reworded the original post to make that more clear.
Ahh wait ok got it. Did not look at the graphs you linked at first. It will be OK to have a 6s ICD if revitalize uses base cooldown time though LOL.
Hence the gap becomes bigger the higher we go which is correct.
Most actives would have abt 30s cooldown after gear and INT. They usually last about 15s R3 AO last 18s. Hence with revitalize at ICD 2, it is about enough keep an active defense ALMOST permanently up at the expensive of having to constantly use the energy builder which then severely limits the choice of powers i.e. no maintains or full charge, to externally targetting etc. The penalties for a self-radiance revitalize build is already very harsh. Which is the simple reason why you do not see revitalize builds flooding the game unlike CoPD-DE-Claws build, AoED-Pet Dino build, Quarry-Geyser-2GM builds.
You're redirecting the force of incoming attacks into your own attacks, for a few seconds.
"Force Barrier" or the like would be better for a real AoE bubble (like something that has shield HP, basically a dome-shaped Nimbus of Force or something).
Yeah, provided you can actually use an attack before the buff runs out...seriously, it needs a name change, you aren't REALLY redirecting anything, the attack damage is being absorbed, you aren't reflecting a percentage of the incoming damage, that would be REAL redirection.
That ally defense buff is simply absorbing a percentage of incoming damage, with the physical damage buff being generated by the caster storing the potential kinetic energy... if anything its like a kinetic reverberation.
Force Barrier/Force Field would sound better, AoE Shield graphics apparently cannot be done, so there's that concept thrown out of the window. (NOTE: This is because of the strain it would cause the server for players to be able to cast large AoE Shields on the fly)
Redirected Force sounds...really lame. Allied Defence, Allied Force etc would be better than its current name, it would be disappointing to have it hit LIVE with that name.
rename it Useless force, now that its been nerfed THAT bad its nearly USELESS.
I don't know if it will be worth taking or not as I won't be back in game until August, but the way that it was worded makes it sound like the damage would be reduced before Resist/Dodge takes effect. To me, 20% off of an attack that would do, say, 6k damage would be reduced to 4.5k and then the resists and dodge take effect. Sounds good to me.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I don't know if it will be worth taking or not as I won't be back in game until August, but the way that it was worded makes it sound like the damage would be reduced before Resist/Dodge takes effect. To me, 20% off of an attack that would do, say, 6k damage would be reduced to 4.5k and then the resists and dodge take effect. Sounds good to me.
Is it 20% flat reduction or 20% additive, subject to Cryptic Math? Same with the damage boost.
Redirected Force sounds...really lame. Allied Defence, Allied Force etc would be better than its current name, it would be disappointing to have it hit LIVE with that name.
I don't know if it will be worth taking or not as I won't be back in game until August, but the way that it was worded makes it sound like the damage would be reduced before Resist/Dodge takes effect. To me, 20% off of an attack that would do, say, 6k damage would be reduced to 4.5k and then the resists and dodge take effect. Sounds good to me.
Is it 20% flat reduction or 20% additive, subject to Cryptic Math? Same with the damage boost.
According to the Devs it's 20% which operates outside DR, in a little test of mine with those laser cannons in PH vs PFF, without the shield (non dodge) = 1056, with Allied Defense active = 880 (non dodge), I think this power would mainly be for END/REC users, either that or support toons which good energy management.
END seems to be a requirement in a sense, which is why I'd expect it to appear on The Impulse AT instead of that god awful power Force Snap (on a ranged AT = logic FAIL)
I tried it with END primary and so much win, but not really for non END/REC packing builds. unless you reduce the energy cost so much and have high enough REC to pull it off, or something like that.
It does take off damage before Dodge both times I did it with dodged hits I took less with the shield active (i.e. smaller dodge number with shield).
I think its just a little bad the value was cut so harshly, but when you think about it...60% off an attack without DR affecting it + Invuln + possible AoRP with High PRE and IDF and you are going to have one heck of an unstoppable force. <--so to stop that from becoming the new way to LOL through content and perhaps even PvP (lol) it was lowered.
To be fair it had to be explained to me before I understood why it was cut so deeply.
Although, I am miffed at a couple things.. 1. Lack of AoE Graphic.. 2. Lack of name change
I REALLY hope the name is reconsidered though..Allied Defense would sound so much better.
Feedback? Eww, no thanks, I'd probably suggest that for an energy unlock name either that or Kinetic Reverberation.
I'm sticking with Allied Defense, sounds "proper" IMO, since it is an ally defense buff, sort of fits. But if they are intent on keeping the word Force in there...
Allied Force
Force Protect (?) O_o
Force Assist (eww)
I dont want to suggest anymore before I scare myself with how BAD they sound lol, but Allied Force would suffice, I'd imagine.
Redirected has the impression you are absorbing the force and its being redirected by the force field...when its not..you are absorbing 20% and you have a four sec window to out put that extra damage..
so they meganerfed the force aoe shield. not using it. the power sucks now, its not worth it anymore. good job all you QQers who got it nerfed, good job.
WTF, now revitalize is near useless. I guess I'm going back to pres main on savior.
It was done for a reason, not saying I am happy about it but for the sake of balance it was needed I reckon.
It currently acts OUTSIDE of DR, so you can pack on Invuln, IDF, AoRP, Dodge/avoid gear and natural resistances and it would STILL operate outside all of the aforementioned resistances..
As for QQers..I dont actually recall anyone QQing about the % defense only about the obscene damage increase it was granting via the damage buff.
However, I will say I am not happy about being forced almost to use END/REC to make this power function well...OR the fact that it works very well with PA toggles..it should be greyed out alongside other non PA powers.
And since there hasnt been much response..I'd say that it may get a few behind the scene tweaks, possibly a description alteration, perhaps added to a certain AT and shipped off to LIVE. If that is the case, needless to say I'll be slightly disappointed but doesnt mean I wont try to use it..
I think if they should really change anything it should be the way the power is activated..keep it as a maintain but make it...passive? Like a form almost, so that as long as there is enough energy it will remain, this would allow for energy generation and fighting/healing from the said toon, no point shielding if your team are in need of HPS at the same time..right?
Coming on to say the new powers are weak. 5 times weaker than i had anticipated.
If anyone tried to take any of these powers into PvP the only thing thats going to happen is this: 1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
Master of The Mind: Get rid of it...turning Powers themselves into Become Devices goes completely against subscribers needs for freeform building, and goes against a lot of things that CO stands for.
But having already realised you ignore all test feedback, why should i hit Reply here...Hire me for balance.
Master of The Mind: Get rid of it...turning Powers themselves into Become Devices goes completely against subscribers needs for freeform building, and goes against a lot of things that CO stands for.
They are truly at a precipice. Either becomes are powers that are fun and awesome. Or the becomes are stupid crap powers that should only be in device slots.
But this is what happens when standards are thrown out
The power could not compare to block and its supposed to be for team support. The resistance got nerfed but the damage buff didn't? Odd.
Personally..I find the damage buff to be a useless feature, I mean, its an ally defense BUFF, i.e. helping others. It should provide the caster with a higher amount of protection than allies (purely for survival purposes).
However if a damage buff is viewed as a "pay off" for having to maintain, its a pretty poor pay off if you ask me, 4 sec window to deal some damage which may not even be directly related to your damage type e.g. Dimensional Damage Healers, Magic Damage healers, hell even Telepathic Damage Healers...if we still have them that is.
I don't really see the need for the damage buff myself, however if it was still kept as a mechanic BUT, this buff affected ALL team members, then you'd be "cooking with gas", would make the power a truly needed and useful power, because it would actually serve a dual purpose of defense buff and damage buff which would = more support toons being useful, especially if they can maintain it AND allow team members to get hit = stacking damage buff to team members = more DPS output = more win.
I still think if possible this should have stuck closer to my suggestion of an AoE Shield, however since that isn't possible/difficult for the server, I guess This power (which needs a rename!) will have to do.
Coming on to say the new powers are weak. 5 times weaker than i had anticipated.
If anyone tried to take any of these powers into PvP the only thing thats going to happen is this: 1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
Do you mean Rimefire Burst? Or the New Telepathy powers which are still bugged and require tweaks? As you can probably guess, I'm not looking to jump on the next FoTM PvP build with any of these new powers, I don't need to beat them all or whatever, I'm not a pokemon trainer lol.
Master of The Mind: Get rid of it...turning Powers themselves into Become Devices goes completely against subscribers needs for freeform building, and goes against a lot of things that CO stands for.
But having already realised you ignore all test feedback, why should i hit Reply here...Hire me for balance.
As for MoTM... In my honest opinion...its a nice concept, but there are too many issues with it, for example..it doesn't seem to ignore your builds current damage buffs, such as Concentration, AoPM, CoS etc so it takes all those into account with the inflated values it already has. I know its meant to be sort of "The Ultimate Power Telepathy Never Had"....but truthfully it feels unnecessary (for my build anyway).
Some people may like it, but I'd love a proper animation for it before they finalize the deal...and I'm hoping to see the return of my lovely Mind Wipe Power.
When someone is using Redirected Force they are not contributing to the damage output anymore. The resistance buff should be 10/20/30 at least. Otherwise why would I take this power when I can instead be dealing damage. Even as a healer/support dealing damage or spamming heals would be preferable over this now ****ty maintain.
It isn't worth being a maintain, it should be a toggle at the very least.
I think it has to have a definite cost per second (aka maintain). I do see that players want the effect to last after the the power is turned off.. the only real power I can think of that does this successfully is Ice Storm.
The longer you cast it, the longer the effect lasts after you stop casting it.
As for animations.. is Splosions even alive?
ANYWAY.. none of this should be implemented until telepathy is live.
Ditch the damage buff from Redirected Force, make it a toggle and rebuff it to 10%/20%/30%...please?
I disagree with this change. and not just because it comes before telepathy. This power should work in concert with IDF.
Also giving it a casting akin to Snow Storm (where it persists longer based on how long it's maintained) will keep it from being spammed by low END builds and reward players with high END/REC to maintain it for longer and still have energy to attack before the buff is gone.
Who is to say that there won't be an energy penalty or consumption for keeping it toggled. Kind of like Spark Storm with the Advantage.
Allowing it to be a toggle like Spark Storm would mean the caster does not have to maintain the power for any period of time and is allowed to spam attacks while the (rather large) buff is active.
There has to be a time/energy penalty that keeps it from being YET ANOTHER unregulated buff. These un-regulated buffs ruin balance. So if you are going to allow powers that increase damage or defense I only ask that they be made exclusive so they cannot be cherry picked. The maintain serves this purpose because while you are using THAT power you cannot also be doing damage.
I already cringe at the thought of the spammed powers that are cast with a "relatively free" buff. Energy is too easy to maintain to rely on it as a governor.
Comments
Sorry, but no. People were doing that when it was originally on PTS, before the 2-second ICD was put into place. And again after it went live with the 2-second ICD. It just didn't become super-popular right off the bat, probably because there were so many other new shinies.
It's a quick logical leap from "oh, I want to use my EB all the time" to "oh, I want an EB that I can use even when I don't have anything to target". Same line of thinking that pairs up Conviction with MSA, really.
Not saying this doesn't suck for you (and everyone else that spent time putting together builds reliant on it), but it's still a damned powerful spec even with a 6-second ICD.
It shouldn't have been released with merely a 2-second ICD, but it didn't really begin to show up as the huge issue we knew it had the potential to be until they started releasing the legacy devices.
And, cheap plug: I do believe I said in my Spec Tree guide that it needed "quality time with the nerf bat" and it was "the most broken spec in the game", waaay back in April or so of last year. Yes, I'm quoting myself. It's late here and I'm tired. Also, I really need to get around to fixing the formatting on that damned thing, at some point.
But anyway. The reason why it's just getting nerfed now is because Neverwinter's live (Okay, "Open Beta"...) and Crush was able to pick the locks chaining him to his NW desk for a bit.
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Unlike Empathic Healing, I thought (refuse to test now) the buff aided teammates that are affected as well.. they will get much more use of the buffs than the caster biensure.
Also unlike Empathic Healing Redirected Force is not Telepathy and thus isn't worth the man hours of PTS time/money spent by me
Oh good. Useless then.
Back to telepathy
If you are referring to using energy builder then yes that was how revitalize works hence people will use their energy builder but to use an energy builder all the time requires a target and no one actually thought of using radiance on self even though it was a natural step for you.
A 6 second ICD will make it quite worthless. Just let it go to live and see how many people will still use it as it is there are already so few adopters compared to all the other builds which are popping up repeatedly that I keep pointing out. I don't really care too much anymore because I am pretty assured the devs will let it through and I am quite ready to move off the game.
As you mentioned the impact was not felt until the legacy devices. So which one in particular are yout referring to? Eruption I supposed. Did it occur to you then the issue is not revitalize and rather the legacy devices. However we know Cryptic will not touch them because they cost players money and so many players have forked out money to get them that if they did there will be a major repercussion.
You mentioned G Crush return as something to be happy about. I guess coming from the perspective of having a dev is better than no dev that may be true but think about how many OP and broken stuff came with him. I did not really want to bring it in perhaps he is not familiar with the system and the balance of CO but let me put them up for you to think about even though I am sure you know all of them.
Imbue was changed drastically to something that did not function as it was originally intended with reason being they cannot fix it right. Throwing blade can be spam without energy consumption in ridiculously short time with tap and block, gas pellets were critting and instead of an aoe could have all 8 pellets damaging the target if concentrated or if enemy is large, shadowstrike hits for ridiculous amount of damage even without smoke grenade and with that thrown in it is even more spectacular, strafing run has become a.popular choice amongst pvper because of the high damage and short cooldown, ricochet throw does huge damage with low energy cost, 2gm has become another favourite pvp power overshadowing any other tier 2 powers, the new telepathy set puts out numbers only fan boys approves of and of course legacy devices. I have such incredible faith in the devs now.
Sympathy? Naahh, not asking for sympathy or empathy. Just voicing my opinions. I admire your persistent to keep going down the road but not for me. This will be once too many. If other mmo does the same and they do it after months of inactivity and players have spent lots of time and money on it then it is a good thing I do not intend to switch to other mmos not one by cryptic in any case. So revitalize cannot be a build to revolve around but devour essence and 2gm can? Interesting.
We're seeing the beginning of a focus on power direction where there are multiple strategies for powers for different builds other than just statistical strategic ones. Redirected Force can primarily be used for healers/support toons. But its also for other toons who want to aid their allies in a dire situation and then get a spike of damage with whatever they use once they switch back to the offensive.
Which is why I think this power should boost ALL physical damage (including melee). Imagine melee focused builds being able to do something other than nothing while running to their targets, then hit those targets with a spike of damage. It could be a way to keep up with range builds when it comes to competing with DPS or even holding agro while tanking.
Cryptic Logic: If we can't make it work Properly, then we are gonna Butch it to the ground! :mad:
This is gonna Ruin my 4th FF character SO BAD
DON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT IT!
The FF character I mention, Use PFF!
broken powers are broken powers, if you feel like you cant live without it it might be broken.
I support this change.
Revitalize is still strong enough to be the centerpiece of a build even with the increased cooldown. And I'd argue that a power should pretty much always be strong enough to be the central focus of a build, over a spec. Specs are numbers padding and minor additional effects, except in the case of Revitalize. Even the Aggressive Stance/The Best Defense combo is just number padding. There's nothing special or unique that high offense/defense brings to a build. And being locked into two spec trees for that combo is still weaker than what you can do by being locked into one spec tree and an energy builder to spam Revitalize with any cooldown power or device.
Since you mentioned Imbue...This change is an entirely different animal from the Imbue change. It's not changing how the core of the spec works, it's just toning it down to something more like reasonable levels.
Imbue? Builds that worked with old Imbue literally will not work with new Imbue. You have to stat differently and take different attacks. Since Imbue's an AO now, single-hit large-damage chargeups aren't as useful as maintains that benefit from the duration of the buff.
Former alpha-strike builds focused around cooldown reduction and stacking damage buffs now need to regear for crit chance and take damage to fully use Imbue. It's easier to just go with crits and swap to a maintain instead of trying to make the old build work. Which, in the example I'm using, means that my Gigabolt spiker gets shelved until I feel like refarming the gear and redoing his build to make him work again.
100-plus days in, I still haven't done that.
Getting a power nerfed after you've built around it always sucks, but at least in this case you aren't losing the core functionality of the build.
And I didn't say this "became" an issue with the Legacy devices. It was always an issue, it just didn't become visible-enough to anyone (other than the PTS testers who originally raged against it) until it became coupled with device use. People don't notice near-perma ADs/AOs as much as they notice Eruption spam and dino spam. But both are pretty bad for the game.
As for Crush and OP powers...
He's fixing Shadow Strike and Gas Pellets. Throwing Blades spam is clearly a bug that needs to be fixed (but it ties in with the block mechanics, which is why it isn't fixed yet). Ricochet Throw and 2GM could stand to be adjusted downward in damage (I'd suggest lowering the bounce damage on RT and just nerfing 2GM's damage to make it comparable with, say, Lightning Arc. Don't add cooldowns), as could some of the new Telepathy powers (but Telepathy needs something to deal with flat reduction, in exchange).
On Alert completely broke most of the game's balance anyway, but since we aren't going to get anything close to a full, comprehensive powers pass, they're going after the outliers. Those that have the highest likelihood to be fixed in a short amount of time when all you have access to change is powers. Not devices, not enemy encounters, just powers.
Would you feel better about this change if, instead of increasing the ICD, they made it so you have to do damage (to either a shield or health) to proc Revitalize?
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Why not make it so that it triggers when your energy builder gives you energy instead of when it's used?
Then, Radiance targeted on yourself or an ally with full health won't proc Revitalize, nor would spamming your energy builder on an object. It also wouldn't proc if you were spamming your EB while at full energy. But at any other time, it will work as it does now.
Unintended behavior eliminated, intended behavior left un-nerfed.
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Well, the thing is...I was under the assumption that ALL shielded got a boost too, because since the boost lasts 4 secs, I'm pretty sure it would be a waste trying to pull off a Force Cascade barrage in that time frame or something, especially when this is being used/ designed for support toons.
I reckon that a few things need to change before it hitting LIVE:
1- It should be able to work with Force Powers, so that whilst having it maintained I can fire off Force Bolts, Blast, Cascade etc.
2- PA toggles shouldn't have the maintain advantage over other powersets in conjunction with this power
3-It needs a name change, seriously. Call it Force Field, Force Barrier, hell even Force Force lol, just something reminiscent of what its meant to be rather than Redirected Force, you aren't even redirecting anything.
4-I'd like it if we could trade up that damage buff for extra % mitigation. i.e. Rank1/2/3 = 15/20/25, but there would be a 2 point advantage called Redirected Force which grants that damage buff.
5- If we have to keep the damage buff as innate, allow all shielded to be affected by it, not just the caster, that way it not only pays off to be near the caster for defence reasons but also for damage buffs, so like a dual support function.
EDIT: Can we have it tagged as a Ranged Defense Buff Power? So that it benefits from cost reduction to ranged powers spec? It only seems fair IMO...especially when it has a high cost and its been modified..so please reduce cost more
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Before going LIVE:
- Allow the physical damage buff to affect shielded targets too
- Have this power tagged so it benefits properly from ranged power cost discount specs
- CHANGE DAT NAME! I suggest Force Barrier as a primary candidate for the rename.
- I would love for the graphic to be an AoE Shield (but I realise the issues with it, is there anyway it could be changed? I mean CoH was able to do it, right?)
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hovering is for suckers
How about an Ego Blast charging pose...to make it that much more special
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f(t) = t0 - t - (t0 * 0.06) * ceiling(t / c), t >=0, f(t) >=0
t' = min(f(t)), 0 <= f(t) < t0 *0.06
h = (t0 - t') / t0
f(t): time remaining in cooldown, t0: power cooldown time after applying cooldown reduction, c: time between Revitalize trigger, t': adjusted cooldown time with Revitalize, h: cooldown reduction from Revitalize after cooldown reduction adjustments
(power cooldown time after applying cooldown reduction, cooldown time with Revitalize ICD: 6s, cooldown time with Revitalize ICD: 2s, percent change on cooldown time between Revitalize ICD: 2s and ICD: 6s, cooldown reduction from base with Revitalize ICD: 6s)
Graph of 90s cooldown. (90, 46.8, 24, 95%, -92.3%)
Graph of 60s cooldown. (60, 36, 20.4, 76.5%, -66.7%)
Graph of 45s cooldown. (45, 30, 18, 66.7%, -50%)
Graph of 30s cooldown. (30, 22.8, 15.6, 46.2%, -31.6%)
Graph of 15s cooldown. (15, 12.3, 10, 23%, -22.0%)
Edit: Since wording was unclear.
Ugh, this is a super super small edge case that I've never seen anyone but myself use, but...
Wrist Bolters + Automated Assault adv. is how I proc Revitalize. It keeps firing even though I'm maintaining other toggles, but won't return me energy, so under your suggestion Revitalize will only proc for me in between firing rounds.
Which is still better than have a 6 second CD, okay, never mind.
@charachu
I would have cried tears of blood, rolled some heads and then broken the power again.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
.. please
I rather like the name.
You're redirecting the force of incoming attacks into your own attacks, for a few seconds.
"Force Barrier" or the like would be better for a real AoE bubble (like something that has shield HP, basically a dome-shaped Nimbus of Force or something).
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And I want it now.
Very nice but I do not think Revitalize works on the actual base cool down time. The calculation from my observations work on the cool down time after factoring all gear and intelligence. Meaning an original cooldown with 1min30sec whn after gear and intelligence could go to about 30 sec and revitalize is calculated using the 30 sec rather that the original 1min30sec. Hence changing the ICD from 2 to 6 seconds will make it quite useless altogether.
To sagewithbubble:
honestly I don't really care anymore what they are going to change revitalize to. If this goes live and my toon has to be rebuilt, well it just is not going to take place. I actually just got a friend to start playing but had to tell him not to go on because I am probably quitting. Simple reason, I do not care if you or devs or anyone feels whichever power is OP etc. I am not going to spend money and time to compensate post release nerfs anymore. I think my point about what was release my Crush is valid then. Until they are able to develop powers with proper balance before release then such post release nerfs will continue to take place. I feel this is like selling someone a 4G phone but later on release a firmware update which then disable the 4G capabilities to a 3G phone after the person also bought every single piece of accessory that goes with that phone and then release new phones with maybe 4G or similar features or better. Remember the prototype jets? Of course in this case we do not need to buy Revitalize but having to rank up impact prisms, int mods to R9 and buying all the devices that works with the current cooldown build easily cost a fortune be it in terms of globals or real money. It has reached the point that I do not even want to log in to the game now even though this has not gone live yet. It is just disillusioning to see something you spend so much time and effort building up get destroyed. There is no need to carry on with this discussion.
Correct, Revitalize doesn't use base cooldown time, but Intelligence/Cooldown Reduction adjusted cooldown time, which is what the equation uses. Reworded the original post to make that more clear.
Ahh wait ok got it. Did not look at the graphs you linked at first. It will be OK to have a 6s ICD if revitalize uses base cooldown time though LOL.
Hence the gap becomes bigger the higher we go which is correct.
Most actives would have abt 30s cooldown after gear and INT. They usually last about 15s R3 AO last 18s. Hence with revitalize at ICD 2, it is about enough keep an active defense ALMOST permanently up at the expensive of having to constantly use the energy builder which then severely limits the choice of powers i.e. no maintains or full charge, to externally targetting etc. The penalties for a self-radiance revitalize build is already very harsh. Which is the simple reason why you do not see revitalize builds flooding the game unlike CoPD-DE-Claws build, AoED-Pet Dino build, Quarry-Geyser-2GM builds.
Yeah, provided you can actually use an attack before the buff runs out...seriously, it needs a name change, you aren't REALLY redirecting anything, the attack damage is being absorbed, you aren't reflecting a percentage of the incoming damage, that would be REAL redirection.
That ally defense buff is simply absorbing a percentage of incoming damage, with the physical damage buff being generated by the caster storing the potential kinetic energy... if anything its like a kinetic reverberation.
Force Barrier/Force Field would sound better, AoE Shield graphics apparently cannot be done, so there's that concept thrown out of the window. (NOTE: This is because of the strain it would cause the server for players to be able to cast large AoE Shields on the fly)
Redirected Force sounds...really lame. Allied Defence, Allied Force etc would be better than its current name, it would be disappointing to have it hit LIVE with that name.
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Hear HERE!
#TelepathyNOW
I don't know if it will be worth taking or not as I won't be back in game until August, but the way that it was worded makes it sound like the damage would be reduced before Resist/Dodge takes effect. To me, 20% off of an attack that would do, say, 6k damage would be reduced to 4.5k and then the resists and dodge take effect. Sounds good to me.
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Is it 20% flat reduction or 20% additive, subject to Cryptic Math? Same with the damage boost.
How about Force Feedback?
LOL, If a power is gonna have a sembelance of my handle at least make it an AoE Shield xD
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According to the Devs it's 20% which operates outside DR, in a little test of mine with those laser cannons in PH vs PFF, without the shield (non dodge) = 1056, with Allied Defense active = 880 (non dodge), I think this power would mainly be for END/REC users, either that or support toons which good energy management.
END seems to be a requirement in a sense, which is why I'd expect it to appear on The Impulse AT instead of that god awful power Force Snap (on a ranged AT = logic FAIL)
I tried it with END primary and
It does take off damage before Dodge both times I did it with dodged hits I took less with the shield active (i.e. smaller dodge number with shield).
I think its just a little bad the value was cut so harshly, but when you think about it...60% off an attack without DR affecting it + Invuln + possible AoRP with High PRE and IDF and you are going to have one heck of an unstoppable force. <--so to stop that from becoming the new way to LOL through content and perhaps even PvP (lol) it was lowered.
To be fair it had to be explained to me before I understood why it was cut so deeply.
Although, I am miffed at a couple things.. 1. Lack of AoE Graphic.. 2. Lack of name change
I REALLY hope the name is reconsidered though..Allied Defense would sound so much better.
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Feedback? Eww, no thanks, I'd probably suggest that for an energy unlock name either that or Kinetic Reverberation.
I'm sticking with Allied Defense, sounds "proper" IMO, since it is an ally defense buff, sort of fits. But if they are intent on keeping the word Force in there...
Allied Force
Force Protect (?) O_o
Force Assist (eww)
I dont want to suggest anymore before I scare myself with how BAD they sound lol, but Allied Force would suffice, I'd imagine.
Redirected has the impression you are absorbing the force and its being redirected by the force field...when its not..you are absorbing 20% and you have a four sec window to out put that extra damage..
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It was done for a reason, not saying I am happy about it but for the sake of balance it was needed I reckon.
It currently acts OUTSIDE of DR, so you can pack on Invuln, IDF, AoRP, Dodge/avoid gear and natural resistances and it would STILL operate outside all of the aforementioned resistances..
As for QQers..I dont actually recall anyone QQing about the % defense only about the obscene damage increase it was granting via the damage buff.
However, I will say I am not happy about being forced almost to use END/REC to make this power function well...OR the fact that it works very well with PA toggles..it should be greyed out alongside other non PA powers.
And since there hasnt been much response..I'd say that it may get a few behind the scene tweaks, possibly a description alteration, perhaps added to a certain AT and shipped off to LIVE. If that is the case, needless to say I'll be slightly disappointed but doesnt mean I wont try to use it..
I think if they should really change anything it should be the way the power is activated..keep it as a maintain but make it...passive? Like a form almost, so that as long as there is enough energy it will remain, this would allow for energy generation and fighting/healing from the said toon, no point shielding if your team are in need of HPS at the same time..right?
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If anyone tried to take any of these powers into PvP the only thing thats going to happen is this:
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
1 damage
Master of The Mind: Get rid of it...turning Powers themselves into Become Devices goes completely against subscribers needs for freeform building, and goes against a lot of things that CO stands for.
But having already realised you ignore all test feedback, why should i hit Reply here...Hire me for balance.
They are truly at a precipice. Either becomes are powers that are fun and awesome. Or the becomes are stupid crap powers that should only be in device slots.
But this is what happens when standards are thrown out
Personally..I find the damage buff to be a useless feature, I mean, its an ally defense BUFF, i.e. helping others. It should provide the caster with a higher amount of protection than allies (purely for survival purposes).
However if a damage buff is viewed as a "pay off" for having to maintain, its a pretty poor pay off if you ask me, 4 sec window to deal some damage which may not even be directly related to your damage type e.g. Dimensional Damage Healers, Magic Damage healers, hell even Telepathic Damage Healers...if we still have them that is.
I don't really see the need for the damage buff myself, however if it was still kept as a mechanic BUT, this buff affected ALL team members, then you'd be "cooking with gas", would make the power a truly needed and useful power, because it would actually serve a dual purpose of defense buff and damage buff which would = more support toons being useful, especially if they can maintain it AND allow team members to get hit = stacking damage buff to team members = more DPS output = more win.
I still think if possible this should have stuck closer to my suggestion of an AoE Shield, however since that isn't possible/difficult for the server, I guess This power (which needs a rename!) will have to do.
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Do you mean Rimefire Burst? Or the New Telepathy powers which are still bugged and require tweaks? As you can probably guess, I'm not looking to jump on the next FoTM PvP build with any of these new powers, I don't need to beat them all or whatever, I'm not a pokemon trainer lol.
As for MoTM... In my honest opinion...its a nice concept, but there are too many issues with it, for example..it doesn't seem to ignore your builds current damage buffs, such as Concentration, AoPM, CoS etc so it takes all those into account with the inflated values it already has. I know its meant to be sort of "The Ultimate Power Telepathy Never Had"....but truthfully it feels unnecessary (for my build anyway).
Some people may like it, but I'd love a proper animation for it before they finalize the deal...and I'm hoping to see the return of my lovely Mind Wipe Power.
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LOL, if they don't that would be plain silly IMO.
It isn't worth being a maintain, it should be a toggle at the very least.
I'd prefer toggle however. Electricity graphic HAS to go. That should be a basic feature, no electricity in force powerset ty.
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I think it has to have a definite cost per second (aka maintain). I do see that players want the effect to last after the the power is turned off.. the only real power I can think of that does this successfully is Ice Storm.
The longer you cast it, the longer the effect lasts after you stop casting it.
As for animations.. is Splosions even alive?
ANYWAY.. none of this should be implemented until telepathy is live.
I disagree with this change. and not just because it comes before telepathy. This power should work in concert with IDF.
Also giving it a casting akin to Snow Storm (where it persists longer based on how long it's maintained) will keep it from being spammed by low END builds and reward players with high END/REC to maintain it for longer and still have energy to attack before the buff is gone.
Allowing it to be a toggle like Spark Storm would mean the caster does not have to maintain the power for any period of time and is allowed to spam attacks while the (rather large) buff is active.
There has to be a time/energy penalty that keeps it from being YET ANOTHER unregulated buff. These un-regulated buffs ruin balance. So if you are going to allow powers that increase damage or defense I only ask that they be made exclusive so they cannot be cherry picked. The maintain serves this purpose because while you are using THAT power you cannot also be doing damage.
I already cringe at the thought of the spammed powers that are cast with a "relatively free" buff. Energy is too easy to maintain to rely on it as a governor.