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Well, finally played a bit of Neverwinter.

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  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    It's different, Jon. WoW actually gets the updates, both big and small. We have outtages . . . and then nothing.

    Not to mention when WoW goes down, it's just WoW.

    Here, when Neverwinter goes down, it apparently takes Star Trek and Champions with it. Way to miss the point completely, Jon.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Not to mention when WoW goes down, it's just WoW.

    Here, when Neverwinter goes down, it apparently takes Star Trek and Champions with it. Way to miss the point completely, Jon.
    No, point is, Cryptic's running three different MMOs out of the same server farm. And their complete crashes are not terribly common; and their maintenance downtimes are shorter.

    Blizzard runs one MMO out of their server farms. And when they have their expansions, complete crashes are common. And last for days. And that's when they charge fifty bucks to each and every player who wants the expansion, and fifteen bucks a month to every player.

    But when WoW crashes, or has its weekly day-long maintenance cycle, no big deal. When Cryptic's servers crash, though, it's suddenly the worst thing to happen in computing since Babbage first sketched out a difference engine, and everyone wants massive compensation for their lost time - even the ones who play for free.

    I'm just saying, maybe a nice fresh glass of perspective might help here...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • shieldtowershieldtower Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, point is, Cryptic's running three different MMOs out of the same server farm. And their complete crashes are not terribly common; and their maintenance downtimes are shorter.

    Blizzard runs one MMO out of their server farms. And when they have their expansions, complete crashes are common. And last for days. And that's when they charge fifty bucks to each and every player who wants the expansion, and fifteen bucks a month to every player.

    But when WoW crashes, or has its weekly day-long maintenance cycle, no big deal. When Cryptic's servers crash, though, it's suddenly the worst thing to happen in computing since Babbage first sketched out a difference engine, and everyone wants massive compensation for their lost time - even the ones who play for free.

    I'm just saying, maybe a nice fresh glass of perspective might help here...

    When a WoW expansion launches, those several million subscribers try to log in to all of their different servers at the same time and cause a crash. When Neverwinter's open beta launches, tens of thousands of people try to log in to the one server and cause two other games to crash along with it.

    If you can't see where others are coming from here then take a sip of that "perspective" yourself before you pass it around.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, point is, Cryptic's running three different MMOs out of the same server farm.

    Oh gee, y'think? :rolleyes:
    And their complete crashes are not terribly common; and their maintenance downtimes are shorter.

    Neverwinter recently just took Star Trek and Champions with it this week... TWICE. You're still managing to miss the point utterly. It's like if an Admiral told you to sail North to Greenland and you somehow managed to wind up in Singapore. That's how vastly you're missing the point. As I said, when WoW goes down, regardless of how long it goes down, it's the only game that goes down. Because it's the only game running on that server.

    And that's the point. You almost had your finger on the Admiral's orders, but like I've illustrated, you went completely off course. Cryptic, in all of it's wisdom, thought it'd be a bright idea to run three games on the same server. So whatever bugs Neverwinter experiences that crashes it it effects ALL THREE GAMES. And it's what people are complaining about. I'm not particularly fond of wondering when another game gets so overloaded that it's going to effect my experience ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME!

    It's stupid. It's idiotic. And moronic.

    This week has demonstrated alone that it's probably not a good idea to run three games on the same ****ing server, especially when one is undergoing beta.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Full disclosure: I am a huge CO fanboy.

    I still think that all three games going down or being taken down simultaneously (unplanned) is ridiculous.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • keikomystkeikomyst Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So I played with the Foundry.

    They WEREN'T kidding when they said I can make a better looking character in it than I could ingame.

    BLUE HAIR. Q_Q
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    But when WoW crashes, or has its weekly day-long maintenance cycle, no big deal. When Cryptic's servers crash, though, it's suddenly the worst thing to happen in computing since Babbage first sketched out a difference engine, and everyone wants massive compensation for their lost time - even the ones who play for free.

    I'm just saying, maybe a nice fresh glass of perspective might help here...

    When WoW crashes, does it take battle.net along with it, making it impossible for players of the Starcraft and Diablo games to play online?

    Maybe you should start seeing the logic in people's arguments instead of being a contrarian for the sake of being one, and a condescending one at that, just because there's negativity involved on some level.
  • lestylolestylo Posts: 375 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    keikomyst wrote: »
    So I played with the Foundry.

    They WEREN'T kidding when they said I can make a better looking character in it than I could ingame.

    BLUE HAIR. Q_Q

    That's pretty messed up then again, they may want to nickle and dime people later on if they want a truly customized character. If that turns out to be that case, then I'm not sure what to make of it.
    "I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Show of hands: Who here thinks any MMO, from any studio, runs on a single server?

    I see a lot of people assuming that Champions, Star Trek, and Neverwinter all run on the "same server". Please google "mmo server architecture" and disabuse yourselves of that notion promptly.

    Now that we've figured out just how much hardware it takes to put an MMO on your desktop, consider where the points of failure common to all of Cryptic's games could be. The most obvious one is the account server. Too many users attempting to authenticate at the same time could easily take all three out. And yes, that's possible for other studios, too. Imagine Battle.net crashing and taking WoW, Starcraft II, and Diablo III down with it. It could also be, in the end, that a switch or some other piece of network hardware choked on the deluge of additional traffic Neverwinter added.

    Technical details aside, Jon's point is a good and valid one. Unplanned or emergency outages are rare for Cryptic.

    It's very easy for we, the red-headed stepchildren of the Perfect World empire, to get angry because Cryptic's new shiny is ruining our game too. (See also: Me, losing my $#!^ at the end of January) But this is a risk/reward trade-off that would exist whether Champions was getting the shaft, or if it was getting Foundry and a massive Hudson City expansion. (I can dream, can't I?) Right now, we're getting the Risk: failures in systems common to all three games. Before this week ends, though, Neverwinter's growing pains should be behind us. RIGHT, DEZSTRAVUS? By then, we'll be back to the Reward we've been enjoying all along: Short, simple maintenance cycles, for all Cryptic games, that have almost never caused significant outages out of the blue.

    Oh, and if you think nobody else has these problems, Turbine upgraded a billing server in February, and killed Lord of the Rings Online dead for 75 straight hours.
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Alright...

    I admit that I was being too harsh toward Jon, and Cryptic, on the subject of the recent outtages. Sistersilicon is right and Jon does have a valid point, I realize now with Sister's well-written and informed thoughts on the situation. I guess I let my bitterness get the better of me.

    I guess the follow-up argument in this case would be that all of Cryptic's games sharing a single account server lead to such potential problems and the implementation should have been avoided. However, without the system, I'd imagine that a lot of us won't be able to enjoy cross-game chat with friends who are playing different games and also have easier account management for those of us playing more than one game. And yes admittedly, in all of my 3+ years playing the game since early start weekend, such outtages are pretty rare. That's one thing I can credit Cryptic for in spite of all the other things I criticize them for.

    Hopefully there will be no more of such outtages down the road.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2013

    Oh, and if you think nobody else has these problems, Turbine upgraded a billing server in February, and killed Lord of the Rings Online dead for 75 straight hours.

    Again, only one game. And as Jenny pointed out, WoW doesn't take Battle.net with it. You're correct that that's what it would be like concerning the NWO crashes affecting our games, but it doesn't happen.

    The Cheerleaders need to think with their heads rather than with their fanboy/girl hats.
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Again, only one game. And as Jenny pointed out, WoW doesn't take Battle.net with it. You're correct that that's what it would be like concerning the NWO crashes affecting our games, but it doesn't happen.

    The Cheerleaders need to think with their heads rather than with their fanboy/girl hats.

    But nobody has established that hardware dedicated to Neverwinter was the root cause. We only know that Neverwinter's open beta "soft launch" started the outages.

    If, in the end, it was NW-specific hardware causing the problem, then it would be a "WoW kills Battle.net" scenario. Cryptic would also have a lot to answer for, because holy schnikes, would that be dumb. "Battle.net kills WoW/Starcraft/Diablo", however, is far more likely and logical, given the widespread interest in Neverwinter and the flood of new user records, database transactions, and network traffic that come with it.

    Oh, and if that "cheerleader" comment was directed at me, maybe I should give you a gentle reminder of who you are talking to here... :biggrin:

    tumblr_mj7gg8yvbu1rrty25o1_500.gif
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    But nobody has established that hardware dedicated to Neverwinter was the root cause. We only know that Neverwinter's open beta "soft launch" started the outages.

    If, in the end, it was NW-specific hardware causing the problem, then it would be a "WoW kills Battle.net" scenario. Cryptic would also have a lot to answer for, because holy schnikes, would that be dumb.

    Do not forget what company we're talking about.
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Cryptic would also have a lot to answer for, because holy schnikes, would that be dumb.

    haha.. I had to take a moment to really look at that comment over a few times
  • gingervitosgingervitos Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I was in the middle of creeping out a Deadpool clone with standing behind him and doing the "running man" dance when the first outage hit. I demand compensation.

    Git Gud M8!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Cause I'm worth it. Playing since 2009.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    But when WoW crashes, or has its weekly day-long maintenance cycle, no big deal. .

    I tend to agree with most of what you are saying here...except for the quoted part, a significant portion of my reason for quitting WoW was exactly that situation. It was a pretty big deal to me.

    As regards to the, "perspective," thing, it does kind of go both ways. The inevitable technical issues of something as complex as an MMO might very well be easier to take when the game and its playerbase seem to be getting more attention from the developer.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    When a game you aren't paying for brings down the game you are paying for, expect backlash.
  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Re: It's not one server, dummy

    The problem is the fast and loose ways mmo companies use nomenclature.

    Consider how often there is a 'server list,' when a single 'server' might actually be several machines and other distributed systems.


    You can hardly fault people for using terms incorrectly in the same way the companies do.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm actually with Jon on this one. Regardless for the reason behind the outage, CO outages really aren't that bad, and few and far between. I get that the source of frustration is that "those darn neverwintians took all our servers!!! grrr!!!!" and I agree, mostly, but really, at the end of the day, being on the same server is probably the only reason CO has a server at all.

    And Re: "It takes more than one server to blah blah?" For most MMO's sure, probably, but this is Cryptic. They're probably running this thnig off an iPhone with duct tape.


    edit: and it's almost a guarantee that we're all running off the same hardware. We've had coinciding outages with STO and NW far too many times to think otherwise.
  • shieldtowershieldtower Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    CO also suffered from a LOT of lag when STO's open beta launched and even more when the game launched proper. I'm with lafury. Issues with one game shouldn't affect the other(s). Period. Unfortunately Cryptic doesn't seem to agree with that idea.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    pion01 wrote: »
    And Re: "It takes more than one server to blah blah?" For most MMO's sure, probably, but this is Cryptic. They're probably running this thnig off an iPhone with duct tape.

    edit: and it's almost a guarantee that we're all running off the same hardware. We've had coinciding outages with STO and NW far too many times to think otherwise.

    Working as intended.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    pion01 wrote: »
    I'm actually with Jon on this one. Regardless for the reason behind the outage, CO outages really aren't that bad, and few and far between. I get that the source of frustration is that "those darn neverwintians took all our servers!!! grrr!!!!" and I agree, mostly, but really, at the end of the day, being on the same server is probably the only reason CO has a server at all.

    Well I'm not okay with a game that I'm not even playing being responsible for the outage of the game that I am playing. It's just downright shoddy workmanship.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    pion01 wrote: »
    but really, at the end of the day, being on the same server is probably the only reason CO has a server at all.

    This would not surprise me.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
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