Well, finally played a bit of Neverwinter.

keikomyst · May 2013

I have plenty of gripes and a LITTLE bit of praise for it.

1. The character creator is terrible, especially compared to CO. I want blue hair! Or pink hair! Or... ANYTHING! What's given is just so lacking. I spent minutes in the character creator compared to the hours I spent in CO's. Gotta love them fantasy MMOs.

2. Right when I started I immediately thought 'well this looks like a generic fantasy MMO.' At least the game didn't start me off with killing rats. OH BOY, HERE WE GO WITH THE HEALING-DOWNED-PEOPLE QUEST. Straight outta CO (and many other MMOs, too!) They were even doing CO's little struggling-to-get-up animation!

3. Combat is... actually kind of neat. I started as a rogue, so dodging is fun. Dodge rolls are always welcome, they make me feel cool. Bring these over to CO please!

4. The bridge battle was kind of cool, even if it was a hack 'n slash-kill 'em all kinda thing. Scripted events like that part of the bridge falling down was cool. It'd be nice to get that kind of scripting in CO.

5. Telergraphed AoEs! Weren't we asking for these? This is how they should be done in CO!

6. whatthehell? Text blurb saying some lucky jerk got a Nightmare? Oh, shut up! >_>

7. lol foundry, please give.

All in all... I don't think I'm going to play any more until the official release. I'm not impressed at all. I just see a generic fantasy MMO, really. Gonna stick with my superheroes for now.

tl;dr: WELL THIS IS AN ALRIGHT GAME, IT'D BE BETTER IF IT HAD SUPERHEROES IN IT.

biffsmackwell · May 2013

1. All the non-superhero MMOs I've ever played had about this much or less customization. A full-on character creator like in Champs is not even near MMO standard.

3. Great Weapon Fighter has a sprint, Wizard has a little teleport thing, Guardian Fighter has an active block (first in any MMO, ask Jack Emmert). I agree, dodging would be cool.

Agreed with your TL;DR :P

gamehobo · May 2013

keikomyst wrote: »

tl;dr: WELL THIS IS AN ALRIGHT GAME, IT'D BE BETTER IF IT HAD SUPERHEROES IN IT.

Maybe this will lead to fewer demon/wizard concepts in Champions and more toons in tights

crypticbuxom · May 2013

gamehobo wrote: »

Maybe this will lead to fewer demon/wizard concepts in Champions and more toons in tights

Naw. CO is just better and easier to be a demon/wizard in.

biffsmackwell · May 2013

gamehobo wrote: »

Maybe this will lead to fewer demon/wizard concepts in Champions and more toons in tights

Don't hold your breath!

savagedeacon · May 2013

keikomyst wrote: »

tl;dr: WELL THIS IS AN ALRIGHT GAME, IT'D BE BETTER IF IT HAD SUPERHEROES IN IT.

But it have them, everyone is a superhero in NW , a medieval superhero sure, but who said that superheroes have to exist only in modern times?

In fact I copied my Neverwinter drow heroine in CO and guess what ? She is one of the best superheroines that did come out of the Champions Online Char Creator and that with the powers and skills that she has in Neverwinter (of course edited with the CO powers sets.) I love her red eyes :cool:
Now I have to create a story that explains her existance in the two universes.

bioshrike · May 2013

I will not be happy until i can play an old style mace & shield wielding Cleric...

selphea · May 2013

bioshrike wrote: »

I will not be happy until i can play an old style mace & shield wielding Cleric...

The sad thing is even daggers are class restricted :eek: Is that really D&D?

bioshrike · May 2013

selphea wrote: »

The sad thing is even daggers are class restricted :eek: Is that really D&D?

Y'know... back in my PnP days, even my mages would keep a dagger or a few darts handy...

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

savagedeacon wrote: »

But it have them, everyone is a superhero in NW , a medieval superhero sure, but who said that superheroes have to exist only in modern times?
In fact I copied my Neverwinter drow heroine in CO and guess what ? She is one of the best superheroines that did come out of the Champions Online Char Creator and that with the powers and skills that she has in Neverwinter (of course edited with the CO powers sets.) I love her red eyes :cool:
Now I have to create a story that explains her existance in the two universes.

It's NOT a superhero game. Fantasy superhero? Nope.

-I have no choice in my armor appearance, despite ANY real fantasy hero having his own style of armor custom-made for him.

-I have no change in my abilities outside my 'class'. I fight the same exact way as every other hero.

-I am STILL being forced to choose between the same old ho-hum trope races.

That isn't being a superhero. It's being a rank and file nobody.

helbjorn · May 2013

I think it's great so far. I've been in since closed beta weekend two and have been having a blast. The combat system is fun and the quest chains are involved and interesting. The foundry material out already is impressive - the system can keep you away from the garbage material and focused on the highly rated stuff. It's going to give NWO long legs.

They've got some class balancing to do, but I've played pretty much only a Trickster Rogue so far, and they are the forum whipping boys for being "OP". The developers have programmed in an escalating challenge level in PvE as you progress, with much top tier content being difficult to solo, unlike CO.

NWO is based on edition 4, which is either loved or hated by many, and in a lot of ways doesn't resemble the PnP DnD so many of us grew up with.

jonsills · May 2013

I'm still finding the controls kind of clunky. I never saw the need for controller support in CO - mouse-and-keyboard has always worked fine for me - but if NW had native support for XBox controllers, I'd be out buying an interface for it right now.

At least the yellow text blurbs advertising the dropboxes appear and disappear quickly, unlike STO's.

I'm also dissatisfied with the graphics. I'm trying a few tweaks, but I begin to suspect that it's not going to get any better unless I get a new graphics card - and considering I'm playing on a laptop, that means a new computer, and that's not happening any time soon...

Customization is limited, but it's better than in some other games, so there's that. I do like the option to have the appearance of your civilian clothing while still having the protection of the armor. The appearance of the armor for toon #1, a Great Weapon Fighter, is pretty cool, but if I ever get some nice-looking civvies, I might go out adventuring in those.

thearkady · May 2013

selphea wrote: »

The sad thing is even daggers are class restricted :eek: Is that really D&D?

No, it's not. Contrary to Hasbro propaganda, there's no D&D beyond 3.5* - and considering Pathfinder's success, I'm pretty sure that for once, I'm rolling with the majority opinion.

*and therefore, no D&D-based computer games beyond the proper Never Winter Nights 2

jonsills · May 2013

thearkady wrote: »

No, it's not. Contrary to Hasbro propaganda, there's no D&D beyond 3.5* - and considering Pathfinder's success, I'm pretty sure that for once, I'm rolling with the majority opinion.

*and therefore, no D&D-based computer games beyond the proper Never Winter Nights 2

You're not a D&D player until there's a new edition you just can't stand. I still like AD&D 2nd Ed...

towershield · May 2013

jonsills wrote: »

You're not a D&D player until there's a new edition you just can't stand. I still like AD&D 2nd Ed...

So I wasn't a real D&D player until 4th showed up? What was I doing for those fifteen years?

jonsills · May 2013

shieldtower wrote: »

So I wasn't a real D&D player until 4th showed up? What was I doing for those fifteen years?

Vamping.

/10char

sparhawk · May 2013

jonsills wrote: »

You're not a D&D player until there's a new edition you just can't stand. I still like AD&D 2nd Ed...

Indeed. 2nd edition was also my favorite.

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

shieldtower wrote: »

So I wasn't a real D&D player until 4th showed up? What was I doing for those fifteen years?

You were ruining the entire game. THAC0 is the one true way!

rexcelestis · May 2013

cybersoldier1981 wrote: »

You were ruining the entire game. THAC0 is the one true way!

I'm glad someone seems to understand.

Folks forget. THAC0 was a player hack adopted by D&D given its wide use by the base. it was a lot easier than looking up if you hit on a chart.
a

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

rexcelestis wrote: »

I'm glad someone seems to understand.

Folks forget. THAC0 was a player hack adopted by D&D given its wide use by the base. it was a lot easier than looking up if you hit on a chart.
a

Believe it or not, I actually preferred 3e- even though I didn't play very often. Shortly after it came out, and the OGL kicked off- I discovered D20 Modern, D20 Future, D20 Cyberscape, and D20 Apocalypse. Not to mention, there was a version of Aberrant for the D20 system. If you had all the books, it was a weird version of Rifts with a lot more material in fewer sources. I played a variation of my CO Character using Unlimited Cybernetics rules- And fought a dragon with an RPG-7, decapitated a Lich with a High-Frequency machete, and destroyed a Megitech mecha with some other wild characters on my team.

I found my fantasy itch being scratched with Exalted, which is pretty much like every fantasy except Tolkien with two shots of tequilla and a few bumps of cocaine at a Motley Crue concert.

impervium · May 2013

You can all choke on superadine! I'm still waiting on someone to make Star Frontiers into an MMORPG!

I can't wait to make my Dralasite say "HOOORB!" (Sorry, probably the wrong place for that joke...)

draogn · May 2013

thearkady wrote: »

No, it's not. Contrary to Hasbro propaganda, there's no D&D beyond 3.5* - and considering Pathfinder's success, I'm pretty sure that for once, I'm rolling with the majority opinion.

*and therefore, no D&D-based computer games beyond the proper Never Winter Nights 2

Just because you don't like a particular edition, does not mean that edition is not DnD. 4e is still DnD, some people will like it some won't just as it was with 2nd ed and 3rd ed.

sparhawk · May 2013

impervium wrote: »

You can all choke on superadine! I'm still waiting on someone to make Star Frontiers into an MMORPG!

I can't wait to make my Dralasite say "HOOORB!" (Sorry, probably the wrong place for that joke...)

It's been many years since I've played or heard anyone even mention Star Frontiers. :cool:

impervium · May 2013

@Sparhawk Google it and just look at some of the covers, and reminisce. Doesn't Cryptic seem like the only studio in the world that's fit to bring a game like that to life? I don't know why, it just seems like the perfect fit.

savagedeacon · May 2013

cybersoldier1981 wrote: »

It's NOT a superhero game. Fantasy superhero? Nope.

-I have no choice in my armor appearance, despite ANY real fantasy hero having his own style of armor custom-made for him.

-I have no change in my abilities outside my 'class'. I fight the same exact way as every other hero.

-I am STILL being forced to choose between the same old ho-hum trope races.

That isn't being a superhero. It's being a rank and file nobody.

Define a superhero game.
Anyway the things that you say are your personal preferences not what a game (be it about superheroes, fantasy, or whatever) should be or not should be

kojirohellfire · May 2013

thearkady wrote: »

No, it's not. Contrary to Hasbro propaganda, there's no D&D beyond 3.5*

Damn right.

rianfrost · May 2013

impervium wrote: »

You can all choke on superadine! I'm still waiting on someone to make Star Frontiers into an MMORPG!

I can't wait to make my Dralasite say "HOOORB!" (Sorry, probably the wrong place for that joke...)

vrusk player here, but dralasites definitely fit my sense of humor better. cant go wrong with a giant overly bureaucratic praying mantis. even yazarians were fun. an entire culture of adrenaline junkies. gyrojet pistols rocked too, and i loved assault scouts as space ships. i even had the kids "choose your own adventure" star frontiers book with your teammate rama the yazarian.

sagewithbubbles · May 2013

The combat's the best part so far. And I say this even with three of your power slots being irrevocably tied to a cooldown.

So many things, big and small, that I wish we could somehow steal back for CO (since our subs, Z-store purchases and other expenditures likely went into the cost of developing them).

Devoted Cleric is, IMO, how the Celestial set should work here. Healing with it, even at low levels, is the second-most fluid supportive role I've ever played. (PSU AotI was my favorite. I'm a filthy heathen, I know). Manually aiming, even with a controller (using Xpadder) is far less clunky than trying to bind teammate targeting onto a limited button selection, even if it does take a bit of positioning to pull off.

Having two dedicated "attack" slots (At-wills) that have useful effects and stay relevant throughout your career is something I've wanted here for a while (though I'd rather they be added to the current progression).

I'm a sucker for supermoves/super meters. I like the Dailies and charging up for them, as it provides a nice contract in gearing/build setup between making your standard stuff better, or gearing/traiting to use your super as often as possible.

Crowd Control is nice. Better done than here, IMO. Yes, bosses are outright immune to some of it...but they also have adds, and the adds are not. And the adds are also dangerous. Though part of that's due to the lack of powerful, spammable AoEs.

The dodge/guard/teleport defensive options are nice, and lets you take an active hand in your defense. Guard blocking frontal attacks and having a meter means that it's a very nice defensive tool, but it's not necessarily turtle and win. I like that far better than blocks being practically useless in PvP (like here).

Control Wizard's Spell Mastery slot has given me so many ideas that will never see fruition. It's an extra level of customization without breaking theme, and allows you to tailor your layout for specific circumstances/effects that you need.

Things I dislike about NW:

Lack of visual customization
Limited class choices, with some iconic archetypes not even available yet
Lack of paragon paths (plural)
Lack of build options
Lack of some (what I'd consider) "iconic" DnD weapon choices
The nagging suspicion that Cryptic's answer to all of the above is, and will continue to be, in perpetuity..."It's still in beta". As a generic excuse for everything.
The near certainty that we're probably going to be screwed on respecs when new paths come out. Likely as a technicality.
The aggro system seems a few steps back from here
Heavy emphasis on cooldowns (all Encounter powers, I think). There are a few alternatives to it, but they would've done better (IMO) to work in more mechanics like Divine Power, rather than slapping a cooldown on everything.
A lot of stuff is Z-store or Astral-Diamond related (to be expected, but still)
Companions are generally pretty ugly (minor, I know)
Mapping your currently-active quest is clunky

I think, at this point, my personal gaming nirvana is some freakish hybrid of CO's customization, NW's combat structure, PSO 2's combat and CoX's level of mechanical depth.

And that'll never happen. But the fact that NW's combat is already included in that list is, IMO, what's going to keep me playing it for a while.

That and like...80% of my guild/supergroup is there.

jennymachx · May 2013

As much as I like the D&D franchise, having played games in the past like Warriors of the Eternal Sun, Dungeon Hack, the Baldur's Gate games and the first two Neverwinter ones, I'm skipping on this one.

If it ever gets the level of customization options comparable to that of CO's, maybe I'll give it a chance then.

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

savagedeacon wrote: »

Define a superhero game.
Anyway the things that you say are your personal preferences not what a game (be it about superheroes, fantasy, or whatever) should be or not should be

A game with a comic book superhero theme.

You can debate semantics, but with this same logic you can say Conan the Barbarian is a superhero movie. But good luck saying that without someone looking at you like you're an idiot.

savagedeacon · May 2013

cybersoldier1981 wrote: »

A game with a comic book superhero theme..

For superhero theme do you mean: something akin at what Marvel or DC publish?.

You can debate semantics, but with this same logic you can say Conan the Barbarian is a superhero movie. But good luck saying that without someone looking at you like you're an idiot.

Are you sure about that? I remember that when Conan was published by Marvel...

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

Don't play semantics with me. Superheroes. We all know the definition and that awfully-written 'What if' Comic offers absolutely no merit to your Wizards and Wusses justification that Dungeons & Dragons is ANYTHING like a Superhero game.

If you believe so, please ask the members of this board about the differences in 'all these superhero games' like WoW, GW2, CO, DCUO, and so on and so forth.

Also, your precious game fails. I've played it for over an hour and it's randomly switching languages on me. Every weapon I've picked up is EXACTLY THE SAME. So, if you like it so much- go play it. But don't come on the forums for the one last real superhero game and spout your nonsense about how your Chainmail princess is anything close to a real superhero.

Edit: I will agree with Meeda below and say that the combat isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. It's pretty easy to get the hang of, minus the random buttonology.

meedacthunist · May 2013

I think that Cryptic did very good at Neverwinter.

Of course within certain limitations. It's still very early release so it will be very bare bones until fleshed out.

I like combat. It's action oriented and rewards smart positioning and tactic, it's also challenging - you can solo things but it do require use of potions, keeping your gear up to date and planning your recovery between encounters - so it still gives valid reasons for teaming as fighting in party is simply easier. And I suspect that later in game soloing becomes nearly impossible as challenge increases with level.
It's really refreshing change after CO.

Also, combat is entertaining and action oriented but not chaotic. It's also very well done - I liked action oriented combat of DCUO but it was too chaotic at times.

Classes do feel different and use different tactics when on their own.

I like graphic style - it's a good compromise between realism and stylisation. It also reminds me of NWN2, especially NPC faces and I do think that it was made on a purpose.

Writing is good and unlike when playing CO I can actually care what NPC talks to me.

Customisation... I think that for a fantasy game with very defined background setting it's good. You have options for making your character unique within his/her racial limits. Obviously, tiefling can't look like the Martian Manhunter in this lore setting.

Also, Foundry is great. It will help this game.

Shortcomings... I think they are unavoidable.

Available classes are scarce and I miss melee clerics. They really are needed, just as druids, rangers, paladins and barbarians are needed - many people finds them their favorite core classes. But I think that more classes will be added in the future. It's still very early release.

Equipment is restricted by class probably to make the game more accessible not for DnD players, but for the rest of mmo crowd. So they can't spoil their characters by choice of wrong weapon. It may not be liked by long time DnD players but it makes things easier for others. This is probably why Cryptic did it that way. I don't like it, but I can understand why it's here.

There are limitations which I can't understand.
Why player's can't chose evil deities? Not everyone want's to RP good characters. If this game already has RP friendly options like backgrounds and deities, it should cater to the every type of characters. Otherwise people will be simply ignoring choices given by the game and writing their own deities and backgrounds into character bios - it will be a dead option unused by players.

My main gripe is, sadly, 4th.
While the game isn't an exact representation of 4th ed rules it's close enough. To make things worse, obviously it uses 4th ed setting.
And this is the only thing that Cryptic can't change. I knew groups using 4th ed rulesets with pre-spellplague setting, this is how disliked this setting is. And any modern DnD game is stuck with it due to WoTC licence.

Not good at all for any game, considering that 4th ed murdered popularity of DnD and made a lot of people going to Pathfinder.

Because of this the only thing that Neverwinter Online did was to made me missing my NWN and NWN2 roleplaying servers. I do not have enough time for yet another mmo, especially fantasy one, but if I had I'd rather install NWN2 again. I'd like a real DnD experience and 4th ed doesn't cut it.

But it's not Cryptic fault. WotC did it.

As for bugs and whatnot - given how fast Cryptic squished login problems I think that bugs (thing which is unavoidable in any game and especially in mmo) will be removed shortly.

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

Donald Duck had a comic book. I can't wait for a Superhero game about him.

chaelk · May 2013

jonsills wrote: »

You're not a D&D player until there's a new edition you just can't stand. I still like AD&D 2nd Ed...

the cantrips list and my favourite spell Irritation, cast it on anyone in heavy armour and they can't attack until they take it off and scratch

chaelk · May 2013

selphea wrote: »

The sad thing is even daggers are class restricted :eek: Is that really D&D?

yes, first adn second editions, lots opf weapon restrictions.

like clerics only having blunt weapons, so they don't cut people...... I disagreed with their list after seeing the maces and morningstars at the fremantle museum. you get hit with them, you are going to bleed

wizards- dagger, dart, staff, wand
theif- dagger, dart, short sword, can't rember the other one
fighter- any

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

chaelk wrote: »

yes, first adn second editions, lots opf weapon restrictions.

like clerics only having blunt weapons, so they don't cut people...... I disagreed with their list after seeing the maces and morningstars at the fremantle museum. you get hit with them, you are going to bleed

wizards- dagger, dart, staff, wand
theif- dagger, dart, short sword, can't rember the other one
fighter- any

Even still, axes weren't considered crushing weapons as well as slashing weapons?

savagedeacon · May 2013

cybersoldier1981 wrote: »

Don't play semantics with me. Superheroes. We all know the definition and that awfully-written 'What if' Comic offers absolutely no merit to your Wizards and Wusses justification that Dungeons & Dragons is ANYTHING like a Superhero game.

If you believe so, please ask the members of this board about the differences in 'all these superhero games' like WoW, GW2, CO, DCUO, and so on and so forth.

Also, your precious game fails. I've played it for over an hour and it's randomly switching languages on me. Every weapon I've picked up is EXACTLY THE SAME. So, if you like it so much- go play it. But don't come on the forums for the one last real superhero game and spout your nonsense about how your Chainmail princess is anything close to a real superhero.

Edit: I will agree with Meeda below and say that the combat isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. It's pretty easy to get the hang of, minus the random buttonology.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: but do you know at least the real reasons that they call them superheroes ? It could surprise you

honestresearcher · May 2013

The last 2 years of CO, and Neverwinter in a nutshell:

1. *rummage around CO files*
2. Copy
3. Slight Edit
3. Paste
4. DONE!
5. Sell for extortionate amount of money.

And thats not even a joke... its serious.

zahinder · May 2013

If it's not a joke, it's an extremely obviously stupid and incorrect assessment.

There's plenty of fair complaints about NW, but 'copy/paste of CO' is completely unfounded.

honestresearcher · May 2013

Dont make me make a big list of copy paste jobs :P its a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong list

the evidence all over the place is astounding.

zahinder · May 2013

Well, it's the same engine. There will be some similarities. But the similarities are far less than comparing CO to random other western MMO.

I mean, the gameplay feels utterly different, the hotbar is completely different (which is unusual for a western MMO), the stats and leveling is different, the look and feel of the graphics is rather different, Foundry isn't in CO, companions are different, wearable items are different, crafting is utterly different...

Dude. How does that constitute copy/paste in any meaningful sense of the term?

towershield · May 2013

^This.

I wouldn't argue with it Zahinder. You'll never convince it that its wrong.

honestresearcher · May 2013

zahinder wrote: »

Dude. How does that constitute copy/paste in any meaningful sense of the term?

Because some textures, and even full animations and some system structure HAVE LITERALLY been copy/pasted?

...duh.

If you're going to start saying they haven't, then i'll know your delusional and to just not bother.

kuramabingyi · May 2013

I think Champions -- More so, Cryptic -- has spoiled us in terms of character customization, starting with City of Heroes and now Champions. Now we're expecting it in every Cryptic MMO because that's one of the things they're known for.

flyingfinn · May 2013

About character customing in Neverwinter. If you have fiddled with Foundry there, you see what they could have done with character customing for player characters.

fantasycharacter · May 2013

savagedeacon wrote: »

For superhero theme do you mean: something akin at what Marvel or DC publish?.

Are you sure about that? I remember that when Conan was published by Marvel...

Just because it us published by someone who publishes superhero stories does not make the subject matter super heroic.

Conan was originally written as sword and sorcery fantasy. The latest version from Dark Horse still has him being written as such.

Btw marvel and Dc have co-trademarked the word super hero for a while now, so CO is not technically even a super hero game unless they are paying royalties for the word usage.

biffsmackwell · May 2013

fantasycharacter wrote: »

Just because it us published by someone who publishes superhero stories does not make the subject matter super heroic.

Nah don't you know, anything that's ever been in a comic book is a super hero. Aunt May, she's a superhero. Encino Man, superhero. That guy that gets sand kicked in his face at the beach? Superhero. Spider-Man's head on the bottom left of the comic covers? Superhero. Page numbering? Superhero!

cybersoldier1981 · May 2013

biffsmackwell wrote: »

Nah don't you know, anything that's ever been in a comic book is a super hero. Aunt May, she's a superhero. Encino Man, superhero. That guy that gets sand kicked in his face at the beach? Superhero. Spider-Man's head on the bottom left of the comic covers? Superhero. Page numbering? Superhero!

So, I suspect the Tijuana Bibles are chock full of superheroes?

AWESOME.

Fun fact: He-Man originally had a comic book, and he got his sword from Superman.

gingervitos · May 2013

This pic I think illustrates the mountain CO has to climb in order just to survive.

biffsmackwell · May 2013

cybersoldier1981 wrote: »

So, I suspect the Tijuana Bibles are chock full of superheroes?

AWESOME.

Fun fact: He-Man originally had a comic book, and he got his sword from Superman.

Bazooka Joe, man.

Well, finally played a bit of Neverwinter.

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