In City of Heroes, there was a well-known and respected member of the forums community that sprang up in the Pre-Beta development and Beta of that game named Kiyotee. He passed away shortly after the game went live to the dismay of many. By all accounts he was very much like Angel of Caine, endlessly helpful, funny, and liked by most. The fact that he barely even got to play the game he had done so much work to help people to understand and love was considered a tragedy on top of his death. The game developers quickly memorialized Kiyotee by placing a character named Coyote in his honor into the first version of City of Heroes tutorial. Coyote was the last mission giver you encountered in the tutorial and sent you on to the main game. When a new tutorial replaced the old one with COH Freedom, Coyote was still there to be found as one of the NPCs (hero side) near the choppers that take the character to Atlas Park.
I remember that! Was actually thinking about it when I posted this.
I'm sorry, I just don't want people arguing over something like this in the thread. Not because I want one side to have its way, but because, in this particular situation, what happens, happens. It's Cryptic's say and they are likely aware of the implications of either course of action. We shouldn't bicker amongst ourselves. I can understand where the counter-arguments are coming from, and I can accept them, because under different circumstances, I might have been on their side, but it's not about being right or wrong when you're dealing with people who are genuinely sad over the loss of someone close to them. It's something I hope people apply when dealing with individuals in real-life and a veil of anonymity shouldn't make you act differently.
Well said. Ultimately it is Cryptic's decision.
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Now guys. Seriously? I know I haven't been around in a while (mostly because work had block the forums) but this is what I get to come back to? I understand both sides. I'm sure Cryptic does too. Let's quit bickering and move on with suggestions. I'm going to sift through the thread again and write down what's been suggested thus far and list them in the first post.
Kenpo, in any open community, particularly online ones, you will have wonderful, warm, compassionate, valuable human beings, and then you'll have the opposite.
I mean, heck, some nut jobs picket funerals.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
All of this petty arguing is doing two things to me.
1) Showing me just how ugly some people here can really be.
and
2) Making me extremely sorry I even bothered to alert this community about his passing and directing his wife here where she can see this garbage erupting over the memory of her husband. I hope she never sees this thread.
I know we have our issues here, as all communities do, but I hoped we were better than this...
I know in light of the comments and opinions of some incredibly crass, selfish and trollish people, it may seem regrettable -- but that's two people out of dozens. For those such as myself who are mature enough to understand the impact he had on the game and on the community of his peers, the gesture is more than appreciated.
There's a time, to use a Trek analogy, when you have to tell your inner Spock to shut the hell up and bring out your inner McCoy. Right after a person has died is one of them.
There may come a time where other prominent members of the community, or Cryptic employees pass away. We can deal with those on a case by case basis. I will say that, as one of the probably ten or so people who've played Champions Online who knew Andy Matthews, that I found it enormously comforting to find his memorial in game, and I smile whenever I see it. I suspect a memorial to Loren would have the same effect for those who knew him well.
I hope you can do something, Cryptic. Even a small memorial, like a plaque in Vibora Bay, would be nice.
The best idea I've heard so far was from the other thread. TT has already seen it but I''ll repeat it for this thread. Its a store sidekick device that the proceeds of which go to cancer research. Seams more fitting and less over the top than a statue. Perhaps you could include an AF with that, and/or as part of a pack with a new pay AT...that maybe also includes a donation. And I can't belive I'm saying this..but a limited time lockbox with said same donation? Maybe have that drop one on specific day of the year? Is there already some sort of national cancer awareness day?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________ @X-Hero Game Overed.
The best idea I've heard so far was from the other thread. TT has already seen it but I''ll repeat it for this thread. Its a store sidekick device that the proceeds of which go to cancer research. Seams more fitting and less over the top than a statue. Perhaps you could include an AF with that, and/or as part of a pack with a new pay AT...that maybe also includes a donation. And I can't belive I'm saying this..but a limited time lockbox with said same donation? Maybe have that drop one on specific day of the year? Is there already some sort of national cancer awareness day?
Looks like February relates to AoC because it's the month that tries to raise awareness of Gallbladder/Bile Duct Cancer, the one Loren (AoC) just died of.
Kenpo, in any open community, particularly online ones, you will have wonderful, warm, compassionate, valuable human beings, and then you'll have the opposite.
I mean, heck, some nut jobs picket funerals.
Yup. But I know of only one group, WBC, that is famous for it.
btw - I Googled - nut jobs picket funerals - and that link was number 1.
I only remembered AngelofCaine a bit from forum days when the game started, never played with him in-game. I'm sorry for everyone's loss, particularly wife (and kids, if any, and other family).
Nevertheless, I support an in-game memorial in whatever method the devs choose to implement, whether plaque, statue, or whatever.
I remember the example of Coyote from CoH and think it's an entirely reasonable thing to do.
Let the community who knew him make the request, is what I say. Sure, precedent blah blah, but... if this many people remember and want a memorial, I say, where's the harm?
It is sad when a member of the community has passed on. I personally think there should be a memorial set up.
As far as in game precedents, there have been many throughout the history of MMOs. In Ultima Online there was a shrine put up for fallen gamers of the game with cloaks set on the gorund with the names of their characters. There are shrines set up in WoW as stated in a previous post. Even Cryptic, in City of Heroes, had a character in the newbie starting area of Outbreak that was specifically set up for a player that had passed, named Coyote. Saying there is no precedent for this past or present seems a bit arbitrary.
I'm going to chime in and be as respectful in my tone and words as possible, but I'd like to ask everyone to keep in mind that its hard to read tone over the internet, and if I say something that is offensive to anyone, rather than continue the downward spiral of offense let me know how or why and I'll reword it or remove it or something.
Anyway, a lot of folks seem to be against Caine getting some sort of memorial the only reasons I've seen are precedent and numbers.
In regards to precedent, consider the circumstances of this precedent. Its not just about a friend or popular member of the forums. Nobody is trying to make Caine into a saint or the like. What Caine was was I believe a Beta tester, a community member, the founder of the forumites channel (and as a member I strongly disagree with the way he handled it, btw), contributor to the guides, PTS tester and general advocate for CO, who has recently passed away.
Are there other players who have passed away? Of course, and they have been members of the community just the same, but have they contributed? Have they consolidated lists, or helped new players? Have they brought groups together or discussed issues regarding the game?
Its importance to remember several things - the relevance, the contribution and the prominence.
Many firefighters, many police officers, and many other countless heroes have passed away, and many are usually memorialized by the communities they were a part of in the field they belonged to.
I'm not saying that all the other deaths are unimportant, or meaningless, or anything of the sort, I'm saying that the point of memorials is for remembrance. You can't remember something or someone you don't know.
Regarding the players in game who never heard of Caine - I remember Coyote's introduction. I was in CoX since launch and never spoke to him, never crossed paths with him, never heard of him until after his passing when I learned who he was and what was being done in his name. Personally, I felt proud that the community I was a part of was doing something to honor someone they cared about. Its not a purposeful ignorance of others who had passed away. There's no malice intended. Its a group of people remembering someone who was important to them, and in these cases, something they loved.
Why did Tumer get an AF? Why did Robo? Why Rox? Why Durotok? The guy who busted the server that one time that got us Dr. Newbton? Not because they're better than anyone else, but because of their contribution, relevence and prominence, even if not everybody in game knows who they are, just like not every police officer, firefighter, EMT, etc. knows every fallen member.
So why Caine? Because he was relevant, contributory and prominent.
And simply because some/many/most people don't know him, or know of him, doesn't mean he didn't have an effect in some way. We are not alone in this game, we are an ecosystem. I've learned from many other players, and many other players have learned from me, lessons are passed along, information, kindness, friendship etc. Caine collected guides and brought people together, people used those guides and talked to those other people, spread the information, spread the friendships, grew the community. Aside from that, he played the game, he contributed to discussions, he tested the systems, all of which affected change. He brought attention to issues, helped others with testing, and so on. He affected the game, as many of the forumites have in some ways and to varying degrees. And he is gone now. Our fellow has passed away after giving to this game, we're just asking to give back so that his contributions aren't forgotten.
So why not Caine?
Well, why is a memorial bad? Will it set precedent that members who have contributed to this game more than most, who helped shaped the world we all participate in, and helped expand the community and passed away should all get a memorial? I say, "Good. They should be remembered, and the people who cared for them should fight for it."
Will players in game be affected negatively? I don't see how. At most they will gain a little bit of knowledge about someone who helped the game they're playing - something that most forms of creation include - a "with thanks to," "in memory of," or "for" section. Will they feel neglected or overlooked? Maybe, but that would be unnusual, and likely to happen to such a player with Rox already in game, etc.
Does it trivialize Loren or any of the others who have passed away? No different than any other memorial in any other field does to their fellows who have not recieved such.
And finally, if any of these things really are a problem, if anybody truly has issue with it, Cryptic will always have the option of removing something offensive to others.
As for the pro-memorial side, some folks need to take a breather, I know this is a personal and emotional subject, but some of you guys are taking this too personally and emotionally. And this part I'm not removing. Caring for someone is good, righteous indignation helps no one. If you care about him, (wo)man up, do this right and make him proud.
edit: maybe in order to breach the gap a little bit we could do as someone* suggested and have a plaque or statue - featureless or something - to represent all the fallen and passed?
*forgive me, I couldn't find the post to reference who suggested this
edit: maybe in order to breach the gap a little bit we could do as someone* suggested and have a plaque or statue - featureless or something - to represent all the fallen and passed?
Well at the end of the day it's Cryptic's call to make, and I hope they don't resort to this just for a couple of objections.
I'd love to see Angel Of Caine have some kind of ingame recognition
I'm also chiming in here with a few suggestions.
1/ sidekick and proceeds to cancer charity is a great idea as it' sboth ingame and then back out into real world.
2/ I felt that some kind of achievement base do levelling alts to max would be appropriate - the rewards could be something like a crimson bolt AF of a title like "anonymous altaholic". While it'd be good to set it at equalling caine's record of 4 max lvl alts 2 would mean silvers can achieve it too. The perk text could refer to Angel Of Caine.
3/ What about having a "hall of fallen hero's" that could recognise any player who's no longer with us? This could be something as simple as a series of plaques in rencen (one for each year maybe) or a little more formal in creating a one room mausoleum accessable from ren cen.
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In a former life I was known as Supercollide
All of this petty arguing is doing two things to me.
1) Showing me just how ugly some people here can really be.
and
2) Making me extremely sorry I even bothered to alert this community about his passing and directing his wife here where she can see this garbage erupting over the memory of her husband. I hope she never sees this thread.
I know we have our issues here, as all communities do, but I hoped we were better than this...
You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you dare go against the majority here, you get labelled "petty" and "ugly". Your opinion, and any arguments in support of it, are called "garbage".
No one in the minority opinion here has been disrespectful of AoC, unless simply being against an in-game memorial to him is somehow disrespectful. Certainly less so than those in the majority have been toward us. That's not playing the victim, Jen, that's putting a mirror in front of your face. Take a good look.
I believe his death has inflated in many of your minds what his contributions to this (forum) community were. That's understandable to a point; death tends to do that, especially to the uninitiated. But I simply don't see anything there that warrants memorializing him outside of the forums, where 99%+ of the player base has no idea who he was. How many regular posters in his condolence thread admitted the same? How many of you ever met him in person? How many of you are going to his funeral?
I offered a list of suggestions of how he could be honored by those who knew him best (or at all) on the forums, and none of them are currently in Rox's OP compilation. Many in this community have become fixated on the idea that the only way to remember or honor Angel is through a few pixels in this game. This game that's not marble, limestone, iron, or steel.
I have some bad news for everyone. Whether it's on the forums or in the game, nothing we or Cryptic can do is going to "immortalize" Angel through Champions Online. Both are finite, and could be gone within a couple of years. Will you all still remember and honor him without a pixelated statue or action figure? Certainly - if you really cared for him.
In the meantime, try to be reasonable in what you're asking of this developer-devoid and resource-strapped game. I believe you're setting yourselves up for yet another disappointment.
I'd love to see Angel Of Caine have some kind of ingame recognition
I'm also chiming in here with a few suggestions.
1/ sidekick and proceeds to cancer charity is a great idea as it' sboth ingame and then back out into real world.
2/ I felt that some kind of achievement base do levelling alts to max would be appropriate - the rewards could be something like a crimson bolt AF of a title like "anonymous altaholic". While it'd be good to set it at equalling caine's record of 4 max lvl alts 2 would mean silvers can achieve it too. The perk text could refer to Angel Of Caine.
3/ What about having a "hall of fallen hero's" that could recognise any player who's no longer with us? This could be something as simple as a series of plaques in rencen (one for each year maybe) or a little more formal in creating a one room mausoleum accessable from ren cen.
All good ideas. I personally feel 1 is the one I would, personally go for, but I, for one, will be pleased with whatever the developers decide.
Devil and the deep blue sea behind me
Vanish in the air you'll never find me
As far as suggestions go I do like the part of the perk of being an altaholic, something like that should be placed in game and a slight reference to Caine might be a nice way to go.
Another suggestion I think would be nice could be to put Crimson Bolt somewhere during the blood moon event, either an NPC talking of it, or possibly having her one of the heroes that fight along side you facing Takofanes.
Some of the other suggestions were pretty good as long as its not intrusive to most players and finding them is almost like an easter egg for the game.
You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you dare go against the majority here, you get labelled "petty" and "ugly". Your opinion, and any arguments in support of it, are called "garbage".
No one in the minority opinion here has been disrespectful of AoC, unless simply being against an in-game memorial to him is somehow disrespectful. Certainly less so than those in the majority have been toward us. That's not playing the victim, Jen, that's putting a mirror in front of your face. Take a good look.
I believe his death has inflated in many of your minds what his contributions to this (forum) community were. That's understandable to a point; death tends to do that, especially to the uninitiated. But I simply don't see anything there that warrants memorializing him outside of the forums, where 99%+ of the player base has no idea who he was. How many regular posters in his condolence thread admitted the same? How many of you ever met him in person? How many of you are going to his funeral?
I offered a list of suggestions of how he could be honored by those who knew him best (or at all) on the forums, and none of them are currently in Rox's OP compilation. Many in this community have become fixated on the idea that the only way to remember or honor Angel is through a few pixels in this game. This game that's not marble, limestone, iron, or steel.
I have some bad news for everyone. Whether it's on the forums or in the game, nothing we or Cryptic can do is going to "immortalize" Angel through Champions Online. Both are finite, and could be gone within a couple of years. Will you all still remember and honor him without a pixelated statue or action figure? Certainly - if you really cared for him.
In the meantime, try to be reasonable in what you're asking of this developer-devoid and resource-strapped game. I believe you're setting yourselves up for yet another disappointment.
Some of this I do agree with, but the whole paying tribute in games like this is not a bad practice to those for the time being while we still play. I might not have known Caine personally but I would still carry a torch for all or any that passed while playing any game I still play. Communities for titles like this are made up of many different individuals. That being said for what time we have to this world and what impacts we can make, we can touch many if even for a moment. What keeps many here is not as much the updates but those that they have interacted with and the friends you make.
So even from a business stand point but to ignore that is just bad business if it can really effect the mentality of your player base. There will probably be more that have passed or will pass before this game comes to a close and there should be a way and common practice especially from WoW that it should tie and shape into part of what this game does become. MMOs do tend to be more than games but there is great social interactivity in them and they can impact your life in positive ways, don't forget this.
Many in this community have become fixated on the idea that the only way to remember or honor Angel is through a few pixels in this game. This game that's not marble, limestone, iron, or steel.
I have some bad news for everyone. Whether it's on the forums or in the game, nothing we or Cryptic can do is going to "immortalize" Angel through Champions Online. Both are finite, and could be gone within a couple of years. Will you all still remember and honor him without a pixelated statue or action figure? Certainly - if you really cared for him.
If it's just a few pixels that aren't set in stone... then why such a big deal to you, personally? This is something that will have no bearing on your gameplay experience, or your real life, so why make the fuss?
To a lot of us, this game is the thing that we all had in common, or at least, the first thing we had in common before getting to know each other. I think it's nice to honor a friend in a place we all are fond of.
I have some news for you. We are not so naive as to think that this will truly "immortalize" Caine. We all know that this game is going to come down someday. We also know that we're a pretty small community, and that this tribute to him won't make the papers or solve world hunger. It's just something we think is fitting.
I have a friend, who was one of my closest friends - I was a pall bearer at his funeral - that died of leukemia only a couple years back. Friends and family decided that placing a bench at his favorite coffee shop would be a nice tribute to him. The bench has a plaque on it, which has his name, and an engraving of his silhouette, sitting at the beach playing his guitar. The owner of the coffee shop was all for it, so they did this.
Not one person came around saying that it was a ridiculous thing to do. Not one person said that he wasn't popular enough for a memorial. Not one person said he hadn't done enough in the community to have this bench in a public place. Not one person suggested to restrict the memorial where only people he knew could see it. And not one person suggested that other servicemen deserved it more and that they shouldn't put the bench there in his name.
No. What did happen was that family, friends, and strangers - yes, strangers - came to the coffee shop on the night the bench was installed to celebrate his life.
Further, no one said that a bench shouldn't be used because it's not permanent. That the bench can be destroyed. It's nice to sit at the bench and think of the great times we had. It's nice to know that the owners were so willing to place the bench. It's nice to sit at the bench and take pictures with our friends. He'll be in our hearts always, even if the bench gets destroyed.
I don't see why doing something nice in the memory of Caine is any different.
To a lot of us, this game is the thing that we all had in common, or at least, the first thing we had in common before getting to know each other. I think it's nice to honor a friend in a place we all are fond of.
Not everyone is so fond of this game.
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I am, in now way, saying Angel of Caine doesn't deserve to be remembered by those who love him. But is it so much to ask that this sacrifice come from the players personally and not asking the developers to do it for them?
If it were a dev who passed, I would want the devs to remember them.
Because it is a player who passed, I think it's best that players remember him.
I completely support some kind of memorialization and giving players who knew him the chance to say goodbye. But a player run memorial service is very different than a dev using game funds and time to create something for one particular player. Yes, even one particular player who is revered as highly as Angel of Caine.
I plan to log in for the memorial service. I will find it hard to really say a final goodbye to someone who did mean alot to me personally in understanding and enjoying Champions Online. I hope his presence is felt long after tonight's vigil. I hope players who care find a way to memorialize his memory.
If it is dev generated, then it does have an impact. This game, unlike WoW and others cited has VERY limited resources.
If building a memorial is going to push back a patch for a day, I'm not going to complain. It's a day.
Not everyone is so fond of this game.
That is pretty irrelevant to anything I said. The "everyone" I mentioned were the "a lot of us" mentioned earlier that paragraph.
I am, in now way, saying Angel of Caine doesn't deserve to be remembered by those who love him. But is it so much to ask that this sacrifice come from the players personally and not asking the developers to do it for them?
Why not both?
If it were a dev who passed, I would want the devs to remember them.
Because it is a player who passed, I think it's best that players remember him.
Our opinions simply differ here.
I completely support some kind of memorialization and giving players who knew him the chance to say goodbye. But a player run memorial service is very different than a dev using game funds and time to create something for one particular player. Yes, even one particular player who is revered as highly as Angel of Caine.
I think it's time well spent. If you want to talk strictly in business terms, it's good PR. Good PR has the potential to bring more money in.
Are there not other people who also deserve to be immortalized?
Just considering the long-term implications of such an act...
I'm inclined to agree. My special honor for him was to:
A) keep the Altaholic thread going after he disappeared after I read what happened to him, I added a dedication in writing to that topic.
What I mean by long term implications is who'd be next?
See what I mean? It opens a door to subjective issues... one that can cause all sorts of problems
I agree with a memorial. And I don't think it opens the door to subjectives. Caliga, Shev, Neptht Flying Finn Vizzone etc they are all still alive am I right?
Something different happened here where a strong supporter of the game has passed.
Not moved away to another state, not quit the game, he passed while being a supporter of the game and member of the community. This isn't just a memorial for martin luthor king or some famous musician, this is a memorial for a player who had a deep connection with us, the community. This is more like someone you work with passing away at your job. Or a classmate. Or a military platoon member.
Because I am a shareholder. Satisfied? Oh and not to mention I actually DID play with Angel of Caine. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. They will not go unnoticed and do little more than show the content of YOUR character.
As a share holder this is not the place to voice your concerns given that this is the forum for players
Also those arguing that it sets a precedent need to go brush up on there cryptic history cause its all ready set.
You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you dare go against the majority here, you get labelled "petty" and "ugly".
This just in. I wasn't talking about you. So you can take your ego and your self-victimization to someone who gives a damn. The fact that you THOUGHT I was talking about when I wasn't is telling in and of itself.
Because I am a shareholder. Satisfied? Oh and not to mention I actually DID play with Angel of Caine. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. They will not go unnoticed and do little more than show the content of YOUR character.
As a shareholder that was actually an in game friend of Caine I support the memorial idea.
What does being a shareholder got to do with this? Nothing. Nothing at all. Please Jaybezz calm a little. A human being has passed and some of us are upset about it. Theres a lot of high emotions involved.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Does this matter? I don't think it's up to you or any of us to decide that. Cryptic will make the decision.
Fact of the matter is that, despite him not being friends with everyone in the game, he made enough of an impact for so many people to come around and say some words, and request for him to be integrated into the game.
There's no need to protest this, people. It's a sensitive subject, so if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on.
A few very important points I need to get across (hopefully getting across, people often put up filters to only hear what they expect to hear sometimes from a message):
1. I think Smackwell is right on the point that you can't quantify the worth of a person's life's achievements. Ultimately we all have a role to play.
2. Please don't put words in my mouth either of you (Smackwell & Hofocaisan). I pondered a question, a logical inquiry. Nothing more. Nothing less.
3. I disagree with Gamehobo on the point of this should not be done because of developer resources. A memorial is a worthy thing of those who should be remembered for their positive impact.
4. People are seriously SERIOUSLY misinterpreting me if they think I don't want him honored. In fact, I do (wish him to be honored somehow).
5. A good community moderator is able to keep their objectivity. With power comes responsibility, even if it's a volunteered position of duty. Thus, saying "if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on" is unprofessional for a discussion forum. You may be correct to think that, Smackwell, but you do NOT write that -- it will be interpreted as a threat of censorship should anything dissenting or unpopular be said. My advice: a bit more of a laissez-faire approach is needed here, just like how TrailTurtle handled it (go take a look, that was a perfect way to diffuse).
It's my sincere hope none of them need to be immortalized any time soon. We want to honor Loren not just because he was such a big part of the game, but because he played this game with us until he was no longer able.
I think you make an excellent point, perhaps one of the most eloquent I've ever seen you write. Thank you.
Some of your points are valid and with sound logic BUT in times like this logic should stay at home. This is all about the love for the man.
Because all the above ( Bluhman and Mona excluded ) are self obsessed troll faces ( nice ones mind :P ) .
Angel of Caine was a voice of reason when so many of us took this Super MMO way to seriously. He reminded us its was just a game and we need to relax and have some fun . He was sort of an unofficial community mod.
Would the world end if Caine got a statue in the niche game he loved so much? No it wouldn't.
Would it be nice if Caine got a statue in the niche game he loved so much? Yes it would be.
I am signed/ for Rox's idea.
I wish I had gotten to know him more. Frankly, I never got to know him in-game. I regret that, as clearly he meant a lot to many of you.
That said, Nepht, I am a logical person. If you dislike me because I'm not the type to cry at funerals or deaths of friends, then that's your choice about me. In fact while I smile, laugh, or frown a lot, it is very VERY rare to have me cry under almost any circumstances (it just goes internal and stays hidden). That doesn't mean I don't feel emotions, but I don't let them affect my reasoning typically. In this case I must admit I feel a bit distant from what others are saying, simply because I knew "of 'Caine" not really "knew him personally". Make sense?
I respect the grief of others, and again like I said in the other thread, my recommendation is this:
1. Continue the Altaholic thread/topic.
2. Continue to press TrailTurtle about forum titles and/or in-game perk/achievement titles.
(which btw TrailTurtle generously offered but has yet to follow through on)
Would that not be a worthy means of immortalizing him and his love of this game?
That said, Nepht, I am a logical person. If you dislike me because I'm not the type to cry at funerals or deaths of friends, then that's your choice about me. In fact while I smile, laugh, or frown a lot, it is very VERY rare to have me cry under almost any circumstances (it just goes internal and stays hidden). That doesn't mean I don't feel emotions, but I don't let them affect my reasoning typically. In this case I must admit I feel a bit distant from what others are saying, simply because I knew "of 'Caine" not really "knew him personally". Make sense?
Agent I dont hate or dislike you. I don't know you enough to have an opinion . Your lack of emotion doesn't really change the fact a human being has died not an AV in a game but the actual person behind it. So we don't really need to know you the fact that you don't cry.
A little memorial statue is a simple request that wont effect your enjoyment of the game.
Please stop trying to make this thread about yourself and show a little respect. Caine was a wonderful person and the world is a little more **** without him
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
As a shareholder that was actually an in game friend of Caine I support the memorial idea.
What does being a shareholder got to do with this? Nothing. Nothing at all. Please Jaybezz calm a little. A human being has passed and some of us are upset about it. Theres a lot of high emotions involved.
I was specifically responding to Jonsills attempt to silence me simply because I do not actively play Champions Online.
While being a former player is reason enough for me it apparently is not enough for Jonsills. And JayBezz does not respond well to "shut up". I put forth my stature as an actual shareholder to say I have as much a right as any to weigh in on said topic.
If you think I'm crass then feel free. No one got far in life being liked, so I'm in good company.
Fact is I actually talked to and knew Loren. More than I can say for many sycophants in this thread.
Many games remember their first big fallen community member, the first couple drawn together in the game that marry and the first really vocal hater. AoC was a big time player these parts. No doubt. Be classy, Cryptic. Memorialize AoC please. Thanks.
Fact is I actually talked to and knew Loren. More than I can say for many sycophants in this thread.
Most of the people here were on his forumites channel. People he added to his circle of online friends. Others were people he helped and others are those that respected his views here on the forums. To call them sycophants is just wrong. Last counter argument I am making in this thread the dude deserves better :I
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Ugh, lock this already. Given the state of the forums, the bickering shouldn't really be a surprise.
However, I read that TT now has the ability to make AFs?
May I suggest he make AoC AFs and hand them out to those that want them? No precious dev time used and those who want to honor AoC can take him along to play with in spirit if not in body.
Caine, I'm sure, would have appreciated the thought that you all put into discussing trying to have a piece of him memorialized in a game he truly enjoyed. I think that is good in and of itself, and I support whatever eventually comes out of this. The irony that this thread devolved into a weird self-centered argument would have made him smile and laugh, I'm sure.
2. Please don't put words in my mouth either of you (Smackwell & Hofocaisan). I pondered a question, a logical inquiry. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I didn't address you even once. Don't even try that.
5. A good community moderator is able to keep their objectivity. With power comes responsibility, even if it's a volunteered position of duty. Thus, saying "if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on" is unprofessional for a discussion forum. You may be correct to think that, Smackwell, but you do NOT write that -- it will be interpreted as a threat of censorship should anything dissenting or unpopular be said. My advice: a bit more of a laissez-faire approach is needed here, just like how TrailTurtle handled it (go take a look, that was a perfect way to diffuse).
So it's unprofessional of me to suggest not saying unpleasant things? The only way that could be taken out of context, like it was (and is currently being, apparently) is when someone's already got it in for me.
And, I'm really sorry, but I'm not going to be taking any etiquette tips from you, and you know exactly why.
You're right when you say a moderator needs to objective, but I still have my opinions. Since that comment had nothing to do with moderating (again, if you take the time to look it over, it's quite clear that I did not and have not silenced any protesting), I felt free to give my suggestion. I have no control over how people interpret that.
Why is everyone acting like smack issued some kind of decree? Had it been any other player who said the exact same thing nobody would say ****. Smack has always been absolutely clear when he's acting in the role of moderator vs. when he's acting in the role of forumite since it usually includes something like the word "rules," or endless warnings that he might have to take moderator action; he's usually pretty darn lenient so acting like he's being a forum tyrant is coming off as a superficial attempt to divert the topic at hand, so how about this -
If people can't stop being personally offended then how about we agree we're all raging douchenozzles and move on from the he said she said?
I didn't know the person in question very intimately, but I do think he deserves that much considering how much he gave back to the community. That's very commendable.
As for the rest of the thread: Why are we arguing like this? This thread's about somebody who passed away, not trying to dictate how we should feels about an event like this or bringing a mod's credentials into question for no good reason. That's just plain selfish and deters people from the actual point of the thread.
He was big in the community, so I think it would be fitting to have his character where the community gathers the most - Renaissance Center.
This. It should have a plaque to tell those who didn't know him what made him so special to so many of us. A perk for reading it would be awesome and an action figure would set things off nicely, with a golden version purchasable through the Z store with proceeds going to a Cancer Charity of Sara's (his wife) choice.
I was going to ignore the few negative posters out of respect to AoC. However, I remember how he would smash anybody trolls through wit and logic and whilst I don't pretend to have his skill, I cannot ignore those who seek to piss on his parade. No matter how right you may think you are, there is a time and a place for everything. A few have shown a total lack of tact and respect and I suspect they would never behave like this in real life. Sadly the anonymity of the web allows people to behave like douches with impunity.
I remember when I suggested that Lohr got a special forum title and how delighted I was when she got it. She thanked me and was really happy, until similar idiots questioned why she should get it. No matter that she and a few others spent a lot of unpaid time and effort to provide an invaluable source of information for their fellow players. It seems whenever someone is deemed worthy of recognition by their peers, there is always some nobody, desperate for attention, who asks why someone else should get recognition.
In short, on some occasions, no matter how right you think you are, showing some tact is the best course.
I like the idea of a sidekick purchasable from the store with all proceeds going to a cancer charity, because that way it would keep him in the game in a way and also we can make a difference to others at the same time.
I also think there doesn't need to be just one memorialisation either.
___________________________________
While she has been rescued
what diabolical mastermind
was behind the devious brain-napping of
the Volterrific Dr Cerebellum?
I like the idea of a sidekick purchasable from the store with all proceeds going to a cancer charity, because that way it would keep him in the game in a way and also we can make a difference to others at the same time.
LOL. Why do you guys keep tossing around ideas that require significant Dev/QA time? Are you really not paying attention to the state of the game? :rolleyes:
If it requires Cryptic to spend money on it, its not going to happen.
Get your TT-made AF and there is nothing stopping you from donating to a cancer charity. Be realistic for crying out loud. Oy.
A less dev-intensive approach might be a title/accolade, and perhaps a cancer donation link from the CO website.
Or perhaps some sort of zen purchase matching donation thing -- for every 1000 zen purchased, $1 donated to a cancer charity (maybe time-limited, it would require some accountamancy to make it ok on the financials, I imagine)
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
LOL. Why do you guys keep tossing around ideas that require significant Dev/QA time? Are you really not paying attention to the state of the game? :rolleyes:
If it requires Cryptic to spend money on it, its not going to happen.
Get your TT-made AF and there is nothing stopping you from donating to a cancer charity. Be realistic for crying out loud. Oy.
There was little downtime between the Harbinger event(Tsunami tank) ending and the Malvan lockbox(Grav Chariot) release. Devices are the one thing the devs have been consistently putting out in recent months be they vehicles, becomes(Doomlord) or those backup types. You honestly think a sidekick device would require a "significant" amount of dev/QA(pfft) time in comparison?
There was little downtime between the Harbinger event(Tsunami tank) ending and the Malvan lockbox(Grav Chariot) release. Devices are the one thing the devs have been consistently putting out in recent months be they vehicles, becomes(Doomlord) or those backup types. You honestly think a sidekick device would require a "significant" amount of dev/QA(pfft) time in comparison?
Dev time = money. How much more than ZERO dollars do you consider "significant"?
Plus you're talking about the money spent be separated out from whatever Cryptic makes off the Z-store (and determining which ones were bought with purchased or farmed Zen) and given to a charity. Who is going to pay for the accounting or the administration? Cryptic?
The first person to have expressed genuine concern to such a sensitive and human topic, no matter how thoughtful or tactless would have been heard and I'm sure duly noted and conveyed by TT.
To repetitively echo a sentiment (pro or against) in argument or to further argue with the inhumane side of technicalities simply makes the next poster a bigger arse than the previous.
Though a topic for debate, there's another time and place for it, without the need to bring a very recent dearly departed into it. An opinion can be raised without showing the ugliness of human nature, because no matter how meritorious the argument, it's not winning votes when it's in the wrong court and against the wrong jury.
The votes are already cast, let the devs work it out. That goes for both sides. The unbiased discussion can be had later regarding whatever decision was made.
Unless those of you who want an in-game memorial are willing to wait for it until it's socially acceptable to discuss it.
There is.
This is us saying how we would like or would not see something happening with a why at most.
This is not us placing demands, personal assaults and petty bickering about the tiny details of how.
I don't understand why you simply quote a sentence out of context when the gist of the post is that it isn't wrong to be for or against. But does the followup subjective arguments on semantics, technicalities and personally directed accusations help anything other than ease the indignation of an earlier response? This is why it is inappropriate.
I don't understand why you simply quote a sentence out of context..
The portion I quoted is the portion of your post I take issue with. Discourse is not inappropriate when there is a decision to be made. Decisions made without open minded discussions are shortsighted.
I cite for example the "Patriot Act" or Claims that Iraq has WMD. You can be upset with people who bring up appropriate arguments because they are unpopular at the time. No one is upset with players for wanting to preserve respect of persons life. However, in context of what is to be done with this video game, there are valid arguments to be heard.
I simply will not sit by and listen to people who take to the forum and try to silence people. That is against the entire purpose of a forum.
The portion I quoted is the portion of your post I take issue with. Discourse is not inappropriate when there is a decision to be made. Decisions made without open minded discussions are shortsighted.
I cite for example the "Patriot Act" or Claims that Iraq has WMD. You can be upset with people who bring up appropriate arguments because they are unpopular at the time. No one is upset with players for wanting to preserve respect of persons life. However, in context of what is to be done with this video game, there are valid arguments to be heard.
I simply will not sit by and listen to people who take to the forum and try to silence people. That is against the entire purpose of a forum.
There's not a thing in the world stopping anyone from making their own thread to discuss the whys and why nots. This one was started with the specific purpose of getting a friend immortalized and figuring out a manner in which to do that, not why it should or shouldn't be done.
The portion I quoted is the portion of your post I take issue with. Discourse is not inappropriate when there is a decision to be made. Decisions made without open minded discussions are shortsighted.
I cite for example the "Patriot Act" or Claims that Iraq has WMD. You can be upset with people who bring up appropriate arguments because they are unpopular at the time. No one is upset with players for wanting to preserve respect of persons life. However, in context of what is to be done with this video game, there are valid arguments to be heard.
I simply will not sit by and listen to people who take to the forum and try to silence people. That is against the entire purpose of a forum.
Unfortunately then gamehobo, we have not understood each other. If I allow myself to derail and engage in this self justifying debate of yours, then I too, have not understood a word I wrote. I hope you find peace somewhere.
Comments
I remember that! Was actually thinking about it when I posted this.
Well said. Ultimately it is Cryptic's decision.
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.
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Now guys. Seriously? I know I haven't been around in a while (mostly because work had block the forums) but this is what I get to come back to? I understand both sides. I'm sure Cryptic does too. Let's quit bickering and move on with suggestions. I'm going to sift through the thread again and write down what's been suggested thus far and list them in the first post.
So. We done arguing now?
ShuckCreations.com
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I mean, heck, some nut jobs picket funerals.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
It would be a good homage to have a plaque, or a statue, or a powerhouse npc with AofC's plaque text in it's info.
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
I know in light of the comments and opinions of some incredibly crass, selfish and trollish people, it may seem regrettable -- but that's two people out of dozens. For those such as myself who are mature enough to understand the impact he had on the game and on the community of his peers, the gesture is more than appreciated.
Don't let the vocal minority taint that for you.
[SIGPIC]http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93012404000&dateline=1344025336[/SIGPIC]
There may come a time where other prominent members of the community, or Cryptic employees pass away. We can deal with those on a case by case basis. I will say that, as one of the probably ten or so people who've played Champions Online who knew Andy Matthews, that I found it enormously comforting to find his memorial in game, and I smile whenever I see it. I suspect a memorial to Loren would have the same effect for those who knew him well.
I hope you can do something, Cryptic. Even a small memorial, like a plaque in Vibora Bay, would be nice.
@X-Hero Game Overed.
There are many days and many months.
Calendar of Cancer Awareness Months
http://www.choosehope.com/cms-category/calendar-of-cancer-awareness-months
Looks like February relates to AoC because it's the month that tries to raise awareness of Gallbladder/Bile Duct Cancer, the one Loren (AoC) just died of.
Yup. But I know of only one group, WBC, that is famous for it.
btw - I Googled - nut jobs picket funerals - and that link was number 1.
Nevertheless, I support an in-game memorial in whatever method the devs choose to implement, whether plaque, statue, or whatever.
I remember the example of Coyote from CoH and think it's an entirely reasonable thing to do.
Let the community who knew him make the request, is what I say. Sure, precedent blah blah, but... if this many people remember and want a memorial, I say, where's the harm?
B/c I don't see any.
$.02
As far as in game precedents, there have been many throughout the history of MMOs. In Ultima Online there was a shrine put up for fallen gamers of the game with cloaks set on the gorund with the names of their characters. There are shrines set up in WoW as stated in a previous post. Even Cryptic, in City of Heroes, had a character in the newbie starting area of Outbreak that was specifically set up for a player that had passed, named Coyote. Saying there is no precedent for this past or present seems a bit arbitrary.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Anyway, a lot of folks seem to be against Caine getting some sort of memorial the only reasons I've seen are precedent and numbers.
In regards to precedent, consider the circumstances of this precedent. Its not just about a friend or popular member of the forums. Nobody is trying to make Caine into a saint or the like. What Caine was was I believe a Beta tester, a community member, the founder of the forumites channel (and as a member I strongly disagree with the way he handled it, btw), contributor to the guides, PTS tester and general advocate for CO, who has recently passed away.
Are there other players who have passed away? Of course, and they have been members of the community just the same, but have they contributed? Have they consolidated lists, or helped new players? Have they brought groups together or discussed issues regarding the game?
Its importance to remember several things - the relevance, the contribution and the prominence.
Many firefighters, many police officers, and many other countless heroes have passed away, and many are usually memorialized by the communities they were a part of in the field they belonged to.
I'm not saying that all the other deaths are unimportant, or meaningless, or anything of the sort, I'm saying that the point of memorials is for remembrance. You can't remember something or someone you don't know.
Regarding the players in game who never heard of Caine - I remember Coyote's introduction. I was in CoX since launch and never spoke to him, never crossed paths with him, never heard of him until after his passing when I learned who he was and what was being done in his name. Personally, I felt proud that the community I was a part of was doing something to honor someone they cared about. Its not a purposeful ignorance of others who had passed away. There's no malice intended. Its a group of people remembering someone who was important to them, and in these cases, something they loved.
Why did Tumer get an AF? Why did Robo? Why Rox? Why Durotok? The guy who busted the server that one time that got us Dr. Newbton? Not because they're better than anyone else, but because of their contribution, relevence and prominence, even if not everybody in game knows who they are, just like not every police officer, firefighter, EMT, etc. knows every fallen member.
So why Caine? Because he was relevant, contributory and prominent.
And simply because some/many/most people don't know him, or know of him, doesn't mean he didn't have an effect in some way. We are not alone in this game, we are an ecosystem. I've learned from many other players, and many other players have learned from me, lessons are passed along, information, kindness, friendship etc. Caine collected guides and brought people together, people used those guides and talked to those other people, spread the information, spread the friendships, grew the community. Aside from that, he played the game, he contributed to discussions, he tested the systems, all of which affected change. He brought attention to issues, helped others with testing, and so on. He affected the game, as many of the forumites have in some ways and to varying degrees. And he is gone now. Our fellow has passed away after giving to this game, we're just asking to give back so that his contributions aren't forgotten.
So why not Caine?
Well, why is a memorial bad? Will it set precedent that members who have contributed to this game more than most, who helped shaped the world we all participate in, and helped expand the community and passed away should all get a memorial? I say, "Good. They should be remembered, and the people who cared for them should fight for it."
Will players in game be affected negatively? I don't see how. At most they will gain a little bit of knowledge about someone who helped the game they're playing - something that most forms of creation include - a "with thanks to," "in memory of," or "for" section. Will they feel neglected or overlooked? Maybe, but that would be unnusual, and likely to happen to such a player with Rox already in game, etc.
Does it trivialize Loren or any of the others who have passed away? No different than any other memorial in any other field does to their fellows who have not recieved such.
And finally, if any of these things really are a problem, if anybody truly has issue with it, Cryptic will always have the option of removing something offensive to others.
As for the pro-memorial side, some folks need to take a breather, I know this is a personal and emotional subject, but some of you guys are taking this too personally and emotionally. And this part I'm not removing. Caring for someone is good, righteous indignation helps no one. If you care about him, (wo)man up, do this right and make him proud.
edit: maybe in order to breach the gap a little bit we could do as someone* suggested and have a plaque or statue - featureless or something - to represent all the fallen and passed?
*forgive me, I couldn't find the post to reference who suggested this
He should get a statue near the museum or in the Ren Cen.
Well at the end of the day it's Cryptic's call to make, and I hope they don't resort to this just for a couple of objections.
I'm also chiming in here with a few suggestions.
1/ sidekick and proceeds to cancer charity is a great idea as it' sboth ingame and then back out into real world.
2/ I felt that some kind of achievement base do levelling alts to max would be appropriate - the rewards could be something like a crimson bolt AF of a title like "anonymous altaholic". While it'd be good to set it at equalling caine's record of 4 max lvl alts 2 would mean silvers can achieve it too. The perk text could refer to Angel Of Caine.
3/ What about having a "hall of fallen hero's" that could recognise any player who's no longer with us? This could be something as simple as a series of plaques in rencen (one for each year maybe) or a little more formal in creating a one room mausoleum accessable from ren cen.
In a former life I was known as Supercollide
You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you dare go against the majority here, you get labelled "petty" and "ugly". Your opinion, and any arguments in support of it, are called "garbage".
No one in the minority opinion here has been disrespectful of AoC, unless simply being against an in-game memorial to him is somehow disrespectful. Certainly less so than those in the majority have been toward us. That's not playing the victim, Jen, that's putting a mirror in front of your face. Take a good look.
I believe his death has inflated in many of your minds what his contributions to this (forum) community were. That's understandable to a point; death tends to do that, especially to the uninitiated. But I simply don't see anything there that warrants memorializing him outside of the forums, where 99%+ of the player base has no idea who he was. How many regular posters in his condolence thread admitted the same? How many of you ever met him in person? How many of you are going to his funeral?
I offered a list of suggestions of how he could be honored by those who knew him best (or at all) on the forums, and none of them are currently in Rox's OP compilation. Many in this community have become fixated on the idea that the only way to remember or honor Angel is through a few pixels in this game. This game that's not marble, limestone, iron, or steel.
I have some bad news for everyone. Whether it's on the forums or in the game, nothing we or Cryptic can do is going to "immortalize" Angel through Champions Online. Both are finite, and could be gone within a couple of years. Will you all still remember and honor him without a pixelated statue or action figure? Certainly - if you really cared for him.
In the meantime, try to be reasonable in what you're asking of this developer-devoid and resource-strapped game. I believe you're setting yourselves up for yet another disappointment.
All good ideas. I personally feel 1 is the one I would, personally go for, but I, for one, will be pleased with whatever the developers decide.
Vanish in the air you'll never find me
Another suggestion I think would be nice could be to put Crimson Bolt somewhere during the blood moon event, either an NPC talking of it, or possibly having her one of the heroes that fight along side you facing Takofanes.
Some of the other suggestions were pretty good as long as its not intrusive to most players and finding them is almost like an easter egg for the game.
Some of this I do agree with, but the whole paying tribute in games like this is not a bad practice to those for the time being while we still play. I might not have known Caine personally but I would still carry a torch for all or any that passed while playing any game I still play. Communities for titles like this are made up of many different individuals. That being said for what time we have to this world and what impacts we can make, we can touch many if even for a moment. What keeps many here is not as much the updates but those that they have interacted with and the friends you make.
So even from a business stand point but to ignore that is just bad business if it can really effect the mentality of your player base. There will probably be more that have passed or will pass before this game comes to a close and there should be a way and common practice especially from WoW that it should tie and shape into part of what this game does become. MMOs do tend to be more than games but there is great social interactivity in them and they can impact your life in positive ways, don't forget this.
If it's just a few pixels that aren't set in stone... then why such a big deal to you, personally? This is something that will have no bearing on your gameplay experience, or your real life, so why make the fuss?
To a lot of us, this game is the thing that we all had in common, or at least, the first thing we had in common before getting to know each other. I think it's nice to honor a friend in a place we all are fond of.
I have some news for you. We are not so naive as to think that this will truly "immortalize" Caine. We all know that this game is going to come down someday. We also know that we're a pretty small community, and that this tribute to him won't make the papers or solve world hunger. It's just something we think is fitting.
I have a friend, who was one of my closest friends - I was a pall bearer at his funeral - that died of leukemia only a couple years back. Friends and family decided that placing a bench at his favorite coffee shop would be a nice tribute to him. The bench has a plaque on it, which has his name, and an engraving of his silhouette, sitting at the beach playing his guitar. The owner of the coffee shop was all for it, so they did this.
Not one person came around saying that it was a ridiculous thing to do. Not one person said that he wasn't popular enough for a memorial. Not one person said he hadn't done enough in the community to have this bench in a public place. Not one person suggested to restrict the memorial where only people he knew could see it. And not one person suggested that other servicemen deserved it more and that they shouldn't put the bench there in his name.
No. What did happen was that family, friends, and strangers - yes, strangers - came to the coffee shop on the night the bench was installed to celebrate his life.
Further, no one said that a bench shouldn't be used because it's not permanent. That the bench can be destroyed. It's nice to sit at the bench and think of the great times we had. It's nice to know that the owners were so willing to place the bench. It's nice to sit at the bench and take pictures with our friends. He'll be in our hearts always, even if the bench gets destroyed.
I don't see why doing something nice in the memory of Caine is any different.
If it is dev generated, then it does have an impact. This game, unlike WoW and others cited has VERY limited resources.
Not everyone is so fond of this game.
- -
I am, in now way, saying Angel of Caine doesn't deserve to be remembered by those who love him. But is it so much to ask that this sacrifice come from the players personally and not asking the developers to do it for them?
If it were a dev who passed, I would want the devs to remember them.
Because it is a player who passed, I think it's best that players remember him.
I completely support some kind of memorialization and giving players who knew him the chance to say goodbye. But a player run memorial service is very different than a dev using game funds and time to create something for one particular player. Yes, even one particular player who is revered as highly as Angel of Caine.
I plan to log in for the memorial service. I will find it hard to really say a final goodbye to someone who did mean alot to me personally in understanding and enjoying Champions Online. I hope his presence is felt long after tonight's vigil. I hope players who care find a way to memorialize his memory.
If building a memorial is going to push back a patch for a day, I'm not going to complain. It's a day.
That is pretty irrelevant to anything I said. The "everyone" I mentioned were the "a lot of us" mentioned earlier that paragraph.
Why not both?
Our opinions simply differ here.
I think it's time well spent. If you want to talk strictly in business terms, it's good PR. Good PR has the potential to bring more money in.
I agree with a memorial. And I don't think it opens the door to subjectives. Caliga, Shev, Neptht Flying Finn Vizzone etc they are all still alive am I right?
Something different happened here where a strong supporter of the game has passed.
Not moved away to another state, not quit the game, he passed while being a supporter of the game and member of the community. This isn't just a memorial for martin luthor king or some famous musician, this is a memorial for a player who had a deep connection with us, the community. This is more like someone you work with passing away at your job. Or a classmate. Or a military platoon member.
I think it would be an honorable task.
As a share holder this is not the place to voice your concerns given that this is the forum for players
Also those arguing that it sets a precedent need to go brush up on there cryptic history cause its all ready set.
This just in. I wasn't talking about you. So you can take your ego and your self-victimization to someone who gives a damn. The fact that you THOUGHT I was talking about when I wasn't is telling in and of itself.
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As a shareholder that was actually an in game friend of Caine I support the memorial idea.
What does being a shareholder got to do with this? Nothing. Nothing at all. Please Jaybezz calm a little. A human being has passed and some of us are upset about it. Theres a lot of high emotions involved.
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They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
A few very important points I need to get across (hopefully getting across, people often put up filters to only hear what they expect to hear sometimes from a message):
1. I think Smackwell is right on the point that you can't quantify the worth of a person's life's achievements. Ultimately we all have a role to play.
2. Please don't put words in my mouth either of you (Smackwell & Hofocaisan). I pondered a question, a logical inquiry. Nothing more. Nothing less.
3. I disagree with Gamehobo on the point of this should not be done because of developer resources. A memorial is a worthy thing of those who should be remembered for their positive impact.
4. People are seriously SERIOUSLY misinterpreting me if they think I don't want him honored. In fact, I do (wish him to be honored somehow).
5. A good community moderator is able to keep their objectivity. With power comes responsibility, even if it's a volunteered position of duty. Thus, saying "if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on" is unprofessional for a discussion forum. You may be correct to think that, Smackwell, but you do NOT write that -- it will be interpreted as a threat of censorship should anything dissenting or unpopular be said. My advice: a bit more of a laissez-faire approach is needed here, just like how TrailTurtle handled it (go take a look, that was a perfect way to diffuse).
I think you make an excellent point, perhaps one of the most eloquent I've ever seen you write. Thank you.
I wish I had gotten to know him more. Frankly, I never got to know him in-game. I regret that, as clearly he meant a lot to many of you.
That said, Nepht, I am a logical person. If you dislike me because I'm not the type to cry at funerals or deaths of friends, then that's your choice about me. In fact while I smile, laugh, or frown a lot, it is very VERY rare to have me cry under almost any circumstances (it just goes internal and stays hidden). That doesn't mean I don't feel emotions, but I don't let them affect my reasoning typically. In this case I must admit I feel a bit distant from what others are saying, simply because I knew "of 'Caine" not really "knew him personally". Make sense?
I respect the grief of others, and again like I said in the other thread, my recommendation is this:
1. Continue the Altaholic thread/topic.
2. Continue to press TrailTurtle about forum titles and/or in-game perk/achievement titles.
(which btw TrailTurtle generously offered but has yet to follow through on)
Would that not be a worthy means of immortalizing him and his love of this game?
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Agent I dont hate or dislike you. I don't know you enough to have an opinion . Your lack of emotion doesn't really change the fact a human being has died not an AV in a game but the actual person behind it. So we don't really need to know you the fact that you don't cry.
A little memorial statue is a simple request that wont effect your enjoyment of the game.
Please stop trying to make this thread about yourself and show a little respect. Caine was a wonderful person and the world is a little more **** without him
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I was specifically responding to Jonsills attempt to silence me simply because I do not actively play Champions Online.
While being a former player is reason enough for me it apparently is not enough for Jonsills. And JayBezz does not respond well to "shut up". I put forth my stature as an actual shareholder to say I have as much a right as any to weigh in on said topic.
If you think I'm crass then feel free. No one got far in life being liked, so I'm in good company.
Fact is I actually talked to and knew Loren. More than I can say for many sycophants in this thread.
Many games remember their first big fallen community member, the first couple drawn together in the game that marry and the first really vocal hater. AoC was a big time player these parts. No doubt. Be classy, Cryptic. Memorialize AoC please. Thanks.
"Saying 'Everything is fine as is.' in the MMO world is like holding your breath. Eventually you die from lack of common sense."
[SIGPIC]http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3117963000&dateline=1341271690[/SIGPIC]
Most of the people here were on his forumites channel. People he added to his circle of online friends. Others were people he helped and others are those that respected his views here on the forums. To call them sycophants is just wrong. Last counter argument I am making in this thread the dude deserves better :I
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
However, I read that TT now has the ability to make AFs?
May I suggest he make AoC AFs and hand them out to those that want them? No precious dev time used and those who want to honor AoC can take him along to play with in spirit if not in body.
My $.02.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
I didn't address you even once. Don't even try that.
So it's unprofessional of me to suggest not saying unpleasant things? The only way that could be taken out of context, like it was (and is currently being, apparently) is when someone's already got it in for me.
And, I'm really sorry, but I'm not going to be taking any etiquette tips from you, and you know exactly why.
You're right when you say a moderator needs to objective, but I still have my opinions. Since that comment had nothing to do with moderating (again, if you take the time to look it over, it's quite clear that I did not and have not silenced any protesting), I felt free to give my suggestion. I have no control over how people interpret that.
If people can't stop being personally offended then how about we agree we're all raging douchenozzles and move on from the he said she said?
As for the rest of the thread: Why are we arguing like this? This thread's about somebody who passed away, not trying to dictate how we should feels about an event like this or bringing a mod's credentials into question for no good reason. That's just plain selfish and deters people from the actual point of the thread.
Really digging you new sig.
"Calm down a little bit Nepht , there's a big difference from having a laugh and being an a*$ " A.O.C
Looks as if AoC challenged you to grow not just as a player but as a person. Can't image a more fitting, personalize memorial.
I wonder how many other AoC gems like this there are on this board?
This. It should have a plaque to tell those who didn't know him what made him so special to so many of us. A perk for reading it would be awesome and an action figure would set things off nicely, with a golden version purchasable through the Z store with proceeds going to a Cancer Charity of Sara's (his wife) choice.
I remember when I suggested that Lohr got a special forum title and how delighted I was when she got it. She thanked me and was really happy, until similar idiots questioned why she should get it. No matter that she and a few others spent a lot of unpaid time and effort to provide an invaluable source of information for their fellow players. It seems whenever someone is deemed worthy of recognition by their peers, there is always some nobody, desperate for attention, who asks why someone else should get recognition.
In short, on some occasions, no matter how right you think you are, showing some tact is the best course.
A memorial of some sort to AoC would be a Nice Thing. I'll throw my vote in with the plaque in the Ren Center crowd.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3126541&postcount=161
I like it because it creates revenue towards a cure for the thing that took AoC. Not unlike the way those Alex's Lemonade Stand got started.
I'm not saying it would be equivalent, but even small scale steps toward cures for the many different kinds of cancers are helpful.
I also think there doesn't need to be just one memorialisation either.
While she has been rescued
what diabolical mastermind
was behind the devious brain-napping of
the Volterrific Dr Cerebellum?
LOL. Why do you guys keep tossing around ideas that require significant Dev/QA time? Are you really not paying attention to the state of the game? :rolleyes:
If it requires Cryptic to spend money on it, its not going to happen.
Get your TT-made AF and there is nothing stopping you from donating to a cancer charity. Be realistic for crying out loud. Oy.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
Or perhaps some sort of zen purchase matching donation thing -- for every 1000 zen purchased, $1 donated to a cancer charity (maybe time-limited, it would require some accountamancy to make it ok on the financials, I imagine)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
There was little downtime between the Harbinger event(Tsunami tank) ending and the Malvan lockbox(Grav Chariot) release. Devices are the one thing the devs have been consistently putting out in recent months be they vehicles, becomes(Doomlord) or those backup types. You honestly think a sidekick device would require a "significant" amount of dev/QA(pfft) time in comparison?
Dev time = money. How much more than ZERO dollars do you consider "significant"?
Plus you're talking about the money spent be separated out from whatever Cryptic makes off the Z-store (and determining which ones were bought with purchased or farmed Zen) and given to a charity. Who is going to pay for the accounting or the administration? Cryptic?
Pfft indeed.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
To repetitively echo a sentiment (pro or against) in argument or to further argue with the inhumane side of technicalities simply makes the next poster a bigger arse than the previous.
Though a topic for debate, there's another time and place for it, without the need to bring a very recent dearly departed into it. An opinion can be raised without showing the ugliness of human nature, because no matter how meritorious the argument, it's not winning votes when it's in the wrong court and against the wrong jury.
The votes are already cast, let the devs work it out. That goes for both sides. The unbiased discussion can be had later regarding whatever decision was made.
No there is not, other than here and now.
Unless those of you who want an in-game memorial are willing to wait for it until it's socially acceptable to discuss it.
This is us saying how we would like or would not see something happening with a why at most.
This is not us placing demands, personal assaults and petty bickering about the tiny details of how.
I don't understand why you simply quote a sentence out of context when the gist of the post is that it isn't wrong to be for or against. But does the followup subjective arguments on semantics, technicalities and personally directed accusations help anything other than ease the indignation of an earlier response? This is why it is inappropriate.
The portion I quoted is the portion of your post I take issue with. Discourse is not inappropriate when there is a decision to be made. Decisions made without open minded discussions are shortsighted.
I cite for example the "Patriot Act" or Claims that Iraq has WMD. You can be upset with people who bring up appropriate arguments because they are unpopular at the time. No one is upset with players for wanting to preserve respect of persons life. However, in context of what is to be done with this video game, there are valid arguments to be heard.
I simply will not sit by and listen to people who take to the forum and try to silence people. That is against the entire purpose of a forum.
There's not a thing in the world stopping anyone from making their own thread to discuss the whys and why nots. This one was started with the specific purpose of getting a friend immortalized and figuring out a manner in which to do that, not why it should or shouldn't be done.
Unfortunately then gamehobo, we have not understood each other. If I allow myself to derail and engage in this self justifying debate of yours, then I too, have not understood a word I wrote. I hope you find peace somewhere.