It's my sincere hope none of them need to be immortalized any time soon. We want to honor Loren not just because he was such a big part of the game, but because he played this game with us until he was no longer able.
Thank you for saying this. I typed and retyped a response several times and couldn't get the message right.
Ok... So how do you quantify the quality of effort and positive impact needed to make the list?
I would suggest that public (or atleast player based) outcry would suffice or particlarly notable contabutions to the game which brings me to the next section
Shouldn't that mean that Lohr should get immortalized too for the wiki project? Or how about Kyle Sherman (@Brizel ; better known as the creator of this often used web-based tool: http://powerhouse.nullware.com/ )? Or even Flare/FortuneFire for all the costume contests he's hosted?
Are they not worthy enough to have a statue of in the RenCen too for all the effort they've put in? Effort that has greatly helped so many in the community!
(this will probably come of as harsh but) The people listed above are still with us should they heaven forbid pass then feel free to put forward there Immortalization I for one would happily support all of them (and in the case of Lohr i've felt for a good long time that the wiki mistress deserves some kind of in game recognition for the wiki but thats another thread)
I'm not saying don't do this, if Cryptic wants to, they should and it's a good thing.
I'm saying y'all need to pause to consider what the long-term implications are, both positive and negative. If those implications are worth it, then go for it. There are many MANY players in this community who have contributed hugely in a positive way, even more than what 'Caine did.
Am I getting my point across? I'm just trying to caution a bit, overall I support this and I'd support a statue or whatever for Lohr and Kyle as well.
I'll be honest I cant really think of any truly negative implications other than some one taking offence at the creation of a memorial for a departed member of the community.
But before we get over our heads, we need to remember this isn't a debate for who's deserving. It is a community banding together for a token in memory for someone who has been to many a pillar of this community.
This memorial need not be intrusive to people who didn't have the honor of knowing AngelOfCaine. It could simply be a monument, a sculpture with or simply a plaque dedicated to him.
EDIT: What lasting things did Angel do IN GAME btw?
Does this matter? I don't think it's up to you or any of us to decide that. Cryptic will make the decision.
Fact of the matter is that, despite him not being friends with everyone in the game, he made enough of an impact for so many people to come around and say some words, and request for him to be integrated into the game.
There's no need to protest this, people. It's a sensitive subject, so if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on.
But before we get over our heads, we need to remember this isn't a debate for who's deserving. It is a community banding together for a token in memory for someone who has been to many a pillar of this community.
There's no need to protest this, people. It's a sensitive subject, so if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on.
I disagree. There are many valid reasons to protest it. Just because a wound is fresh doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.
People are specifically concerned about the precedent it sets. And that is worth discussion. If you don't want to see a in game memorial, you better speak up both HERE and NOW.
I would appreciate it if particularly you, Smackwell, didn't take such a stance as this to silence oppositional opinions on the forums as a forum moderator.
I disagree. There are many valid reasons to protest it. Just because a wound is fresh doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.
People are specifically concerned about the precedent it sets. And that is worth discussion. If you don't want to see a in game memorial, you better speak up both HERE and NOW.
I would appreciate it if particularly you, Smackwell, didn't take such a stance as this to silence oppositional opinions on the forums as a forum moderator.
Note that I didn't remove their posts. I think just out of respect they shouldn't be posting like this. The only thing that will come of it is fighting.
Cryptic has already set a precedent for players being tied into the game. It's their decision.
Does this matter? I don't think it's up to you or any of us to decide that. Cryptic will make the decision.
Fact of the matter is that, despite him not being friends with everyone in the game, he made enough of an impact for so many people to come around and say some words, and request for him to be integrated into the game.
There's no need to protest this, people. It's a sensitive subject, so if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on.
I am just curious. Like I said I don't know the guy, and Whatever memorial you guys arrange I am totally for so long as its unintrusive.
I support this fully. Back in the early days of CO when I was much more active, he and I would talk all the time, share ideas and snark and just have a great time.
We played together and I'm fairly certain when we did the retool content with Tumerboy he was there in that group as well.
Just the other day I was going through some old in game mail and found a message of him telling me how AWESOME my post telling off then community manager Brodie.. and then jokingly said "Nice knowing you!" foretelling my infraction
The news of his illness was shocking and the news of his passing is still something I can hardly believe.
Giving him tribute in game is the LEAST this company and this community can support for one such as him.
Note that I didn't remove their posts. I think just out of respect they shouldn't be posting like this. The only thing that will come of it is fighting.
I don't know this Angelofcaine person but maybe the devs come make him come back as a real angel fighting on our side during the Bloodmoon invasion?
I think it would be a better hommage than an plaque somewhere in the game.
Also remembering the deads is good but caring about the livings is important too. I do hope the amount of posts about his passing is representative of the support you are all showing to his widow in real life.
I see someone talked of how WoW did it and well there should be something in place in different areas of CO for those that do pass and are relatively known on forums and in game. I'm more found in game and don't talk on here as much, but everyone here has at one point seen Angel post something of relevance here.
There's a few ways to go about it, and it should be handled case by case basis by the community in question. Since Caine did help with roxstar being able to be immortalized as such, maybe Crimson Bolt could replace the tempest maybe, but then again I do like seeing that one as is. It's two ways in seeing it as it would make sense for Crimson to show up there.
Some type of small area however added for statues or plaques for those members that do pass. A plaque of some sort and a developed "memorial park of champions" might be a better thing to do and once done, any others that pass can be put here as well. You could also add in figures of the player's mains from a vendor here who tends to the areas. They could be found in separate areas in millenium city, vibora bay, desert, etc.
I looked at those screenshots and I could probably piece together that costume. I think I own all the parts for it.
I am just curious. Like I said I don't know the guy, and Whatever memorial you guys arrange I am totally for so long as its unintrusive.
That isn't just what you said. You also said that people die all of the time and as long as it doesn't get in the way of your all important fun, it doesn't matter to you. Kinda insensitive considering the touchy subject no?
Whatever memorial that would take place if it does take place, rest assured your participation would not be required nor will it be mandatory. If a statue does get placed ingame, I doubt it'd be so intrusive that it would make it difficult for you to go about having your fun. You stated that you don't know the guy (nor care) so I don't see a point in validating anything about him to you. Go about having your precious little fun and leave the rest of us who actually gives a hoot about the guy to go about honoring him.
Regarding the topic..if a statue really turns out to be too much of a request, maybe a plaque will do.
It can hardly be intrusive, and besides, it's all that will be left, along with memories, in order to remain remembered. It must not become a burden, but being unremembered is probably the worst fate a person could even endure once the time has come. The person lives everytime he gets mentioned, no matter the topic. Leaving a mark will contribute to that, it also alleviates pain.
It's disappointing to read a comment like this from a moderator on a discussion forum. So, agree or stay silent is the new rule?
I'm pretty sure I said it was a suggestion, not a rule. You should stop being antagonistic and putting words in my mouth. This is not the place for that.
It's disappointing to read a comment like this from a moderator on a discussion forum. So, agree or stay silent is the new rule?
Note that said moderator has not removed the posts that are in opposition of the idea, yours included. He's just having the understandable observation that making insensitive comments regarding the sensitive subject is only going to lead to fighting. Cut him some slack.
He's saying its a sensitive subject, and people like to speak their minds, which in a forum environment, tends to have a tone of being "an insensitive ****".
He's saying, use common sense, and don't be a jackass.
It's disappointing to read a comment like this from a moderator on a discussion forum. So, agree or stay silent is the new rule?
In a thread talking about ways to give a nod to a fallen community member it's generally a bad idea to try to jump in and tell everyone how their suggestions don't meet your approval and are "getting ridiculous". Your opinions are duly noted.
Ok if this works, I think I was able to take the screenshots and recreate Crimson Bolt. If it needs any touching up from this, I'm sure the community could easily fix it. As someone pointed out, she uses the new age millenium tights. The hairstyle I was able to find and how it was colored by the many screenshots taken. The eyes are the only thing that may or may not need to be tweaked.
In a thread talking about ways to give a nod to a fallen community member it's generally a bad idea to try to jump in and tell everyone how their suggestions don't meet your approval and are "getting ridiculous". Your opinions are duly noted.
"A bad idea" to have an opposing opinion? There's no possible way to oppose the majority on this forum and not be demonized in the manner that you're attempting now.
"A bad idea" to have an opposing opinion? There's no possible way to oppose the majority on this forum and not be demonized in the manner that you're attempting now.
Many people manage it just fine.
It might be nice to have a memorial hall or something in Unity, one that can be added to over time as appropriate. It would be thematic to the game as well as a nice community-building element.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
"A bad idea" to have an opposing opinion? There's no possible way to oppose the majority on this forum and not be demonized in the manner that you're attempting now.
Nobody's demonizing you, but it was certainly bad taste to say that the suggestion is "ridiculous" concerning the sensitive nature of the subject. The intention was to honor the loss of someone in this game's community, and it's a noble one. All you're doing is putting it down and trivialize it by saying we should be honoring fallen servicemen instead, something that's totally irrelevant to the subject. There are more than enough relevant avenues for honoring fallen servicemen.
Also, please do away with the "I'm being oppressed!" on-a-pedestal stance. It's not doing you any favors.
Nobody has told you to "agree or get out", helbjorn.
You've said that you're in opposition of the idea for the reasons you have stated. You're entitled to your opinion, as are others are entitled to disagree with it. A disagreement with the tone and nature of your opinion does not equate to asking you to "get out". An opinion that differs from yours being in the majority does not equate to asking you to "get out". All you're doing is claiming that you're being oppressed when you're really not.
2) I think Angel of Caine should be remembered by the community who played with him. But I feel it cheapens him to have Cryptic Monetize his death. So I do not support anything purchasable (sidekick, action figure, or placing his image in a pay to play archetype)
3) The time it would take to erect a statue in Ren Center is simply too much and too valuable. We are talking about taking time away from the environment developers.. If these devs exist at all, their time is the most coveted by players in the game.
4) Angel of Caine had a bold and decisive presence on the forums, but the forums are not the people in game, if we're going to take time and energy away from the game, then it should be decided by the players in the game.
5) I have to reiterate how much this memorial, no matter how implemented, does little to soften the loss of Loren. I find the idea of putting a memorial in a video game to be in poor taste.
6) My negative thoughts about Champions Online should not intersect with my positive thoughts about Loren. There's a secondary effect of tying his memory to this game and that's not fair to him either. (P.S. - I know he'd disagree with me on this one)
- -
So players, specifically players who knew and played with Loren, I implore you to find a better and more personal way to immortalize him.
I suggest turning the Angels of Caine, a character concept he truly cared for, into a supergroup.
It should take a fraction of the time and resources needed to model and implement an actual ingame statue, and it's very low profile if people are really concerned about a statue being intrusive or feel that a single player isn't deserving of something so grand.
2) I think Angel of Caine should be remembered by the community who played with him. But I feel it cheapens him to have Cryptic Monetize his death. So I do not support anything purchasable (sidekick, action figure, or placing his image in a pay to play archetype)
3) The time it would take to erect a statue in Ren Center is simply too much and too valuable. We are talking about taking time away from the environment developers.. If these devs exist at all, their time is the most coveted by players in the game.
4) Angel of Caine had a bold and decisive presence on the forums, but the forums are not the people in game, if we're going to take time and energy away from the game, then it should be decided by the players in the game.
5) I have to reiterate how much this memorial, no matter how implemented, does little to soften the loss of Loren. I find the idea of putting a memorial in a video game to be in poor taste.
6) My negative thoughts about Champions Online should not intersect with my positive thoughts about Loren. There's a secondary effect of tying his memory to this game and that's not fair to him either. (P.S. - I know he'd disagree with me on this one)
- -
So players, specifically players who knew and played with Loren, I implore you to find a better and more personal way to immortalize him.
I suggest turning the Angels of Caine, a character concept he truly cared for, into a supergroup.
1) Others have said this too yet the only one who's cared to elaborate on the whys behind this line of thought used weak examples that in no way equated to this situation.
2) I don't see how using Crimson Bolt's likeness as the face of The Tempest AT is monetizing AoC's death. That's one way of looking at it but it's certainly not the manner in which the original idea is being presented. The idea of the proceeds of purchases going towards a charity really takes the steam out of that argument and should probably be how those purchases should be handled IF purchases are even the route this goes in the first place.
3) I don't know how long it took the devs to make the current racing rings with all the moving parts and glowy bits but I'm fairly sure something far less intricate like a statue or plaque or whatever else that's been suggested so far would take nearly as much time or resources to do.
4) Do you think the Blizzard devs asked the WoW community what they thought before adding their various in-game tributes to players and staff members that died? They didn't, because it's not the players' call.
5) Memorials aren't supposed to soften the blow, they're meant to celebrate and remember the life of the individual who was lost. A public acknowledgement of that person's life.
6) I don't know what to tell you here. If you're willing to let your negative opinion of the game bleed over into why you don't think he should have an in-game memorial then that's squarely on you to sort out.
The US population between the ages of 15 and 54 (assumed range of Champions players) is about 170,788,000 persons.
The number of those who die per day is around 934.
Assuming a conservative Champions player population of 10,000 Americans, one of our number dies about every 20 days. If it's 50,000, that's one every 4 days. Other participating nations with lower or higher death rates in that age range may alter that number some, but likely not by much.
Do those players matter as well, or just the ones the minority of players who frequent the forums happen to like? If so, the game world should fill up pretty fast with statues, plaques, and new NPC's/sidekicks/AF's. If not, then we're a callous bunch, aren't we?
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
AngelofCaine is just one out of hundreds and thousands of people who die everyday. He's not a special snowflake and doesn't deserve it. Let's just use cold, hard statistics now. Forget the human factor.
Would it make you any happier that there's a remote chance of a plaque or statue ever being implemented in the game due to the utter lack of development focus these days?
How about a plaque that says "In memory of players who have played the game and are no longer with us." instead of being dedicated to a single player. Would that be more appropiate in your eyes?
A little more courtesy helbjorn, would behoove you right now. The last word isn't as attractive as it appears. I extend my sympathies toward the family if they read this. The anonymity of the internet allows for the callous of us to escape with a lot these days. Depressingly.
I like the idea proposed earlier in the thread of making Crimson Bolt a trainer in the powerhouse. He aided a good many people including myself when I first started, so it's poetic. If nothing is chosen to be done however, I'll be a little sad but content knowing how many people will think of him when playing. Hopefully, more will follow his example of helping others.
You can't just bring out numbers and stuff like that because all those people that died, that aren't AoC, as much as I kinda don't wanna say it: are nobodies.
The difference here is that this was a person who lent a voice and opportunity for us to know him and get close, and to some, become a friend.
Granted you could argue, "oh hey, what about those others that died, blah blah blah", Well then maybe their friends should ask the Dev team on the forums to have a statue about them also.
But wait, nobody is doing that because the player base that is friends with those said nobodies aren't lending their opinion here about it.
The point is this. AoC is important to us, because we make him important to us. Infact, we think he was important enough, that we want to immortalize him somehow within the game. Those other players that "kicked the bucket", well thats sad, but nobody is speaking for them because we simply don't know them.
The community knew AoC, and that is why there is a fight to immortalize him. The argument of 10,000 people play blah blah 5 day each 25th minute of an hour or whatever, is pointless because we didn't know any of those deaths.
We knew this one, and this was the one we cared about.
Now please, leave us in peace to mourn our friend...
That is not the purpose of this thread. Well wishes and mourning can be found in other threads. I do not think it inappropriate to discuss the merits of the issue at hand: Memorializing a player in game
You can't just bring out numbers and stuff like that because all those people that died, that aren't AoC, as much as I kinda don't wanna say it: are nobodies.
This is exactly what I want to avoid. Honoring one loss should not disregard all of the others. The others lost are NOT nobodies.
You want Crimson Bolt immortalized, and I support the SENTIMENT and your desire to lobby for it.
It simply shouldn't be executed by Cryptic using player funds. Not because Loren doesn't deserve it.. but because Champions Online can't afford it, and no matter how grand or elaborate, it will never be enough.
Guys, at this point, I'm going to say that it's best that we all just ignore the people that are offended by the thought of having a memorial of a friend in a game and just continue to offer our ideas. Offering counterpoints is only going to get them to argue harder. Let them say their piece and let 'em move on.
I don't understand why you even care, Jay. You don't play CO any more, remember?
I still think a plaque or statue in the park in the north part of town - MacDonald Park, isn't it? - would be appropriate. Heck, there's already a memorial plaque there - another wouldn't hurt...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I don't understand why you even care, Jay. You don't play CO any more, remember?
Because I am a shareholder. Satisfied? Oh and not to mention I actually DID play with Angel of Caine. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. They will not go unnoticed and do little more than show the content of YOUR character.
I want to point out that there are several precedents that have been set in regards to immortalizing players in games.
WoW is often cited as an example. And I would like to point to the following article that speaks about many of the more prominent ways Blizzard has helped to memorialize both developers and players who have passed away in game. Some in quiet ways, and some in rather spectacular fashion.
Many MMO players already know of The Shrine of the Fallen Warrior in the Badlands of WoW.
The Shrine of the Fallen Warrior can found on top of a small, difficult to climb mountain, a short distance west of the town of Crossroads in The Barrens region of Kalimdor. The shrine is a memorial to Michel Koiter, an artist who died suddenly at the age of 19 from heart failure while working as part of the World of ******** development team (Bainbridge, 2010, p.61). The shrine consists of a stone monument, with the angelic form of a spirit healer named Koiter hovering over the body of an Orc warrior holding a sword to his breast laid to rest on stone plinth etched with the runes MK, surrounded by grave goods and a totem. The body of the Orc is said to be the character model for an Orc Warrior played by Michel during beta testing of the game.6 This site is often used by players as the location for in-game memorials services.
But there are others as well that are less well known.
In Hillsbrad Foothills, on a cliff overlooking Baradin Bay and out to The Great Sea, a level 48 dwarf non-player character (NPC) called Rousch can be found beside a grave marker. On the grave marker is a readable plaque with the object name, "In Loving Memory" and it reads "Anthony Ray Stark 1961 - 2005". Occasionally Rousch will emote, salute or kneel. Rousch, is friendly to both factions. One consequence of this is that he cannot be attacked and killed by players. Apparently, Rousch was the character played by Anthony Ray Stark who was a friend of members of the development team. Stark passed away in 2005 as the result of a scuba diving accident. Rousch has been saved at the level Stark's avatar had reached when Stark died.7
Also in Hillsbrad, in the alliance cemetery near the village of Southshore, a "Decorated Headstone" can be found. Unlike the other grave markers in the cemetery, this one is classed as a "book" object and can be read. It says, "In loving memory of Jesse Morales". Jesse Morales was an artist working for Blizzard, who died while World of ******** was under development, or so the story goes.8
Dak Krause was, by all accounts, a well-liked member of the alliance guild, Boulderfist Heroes, on the Boulderfist realm. He played a female night elf hunter called Caylee. He died of leukemia on 22 August 2007 aged in his late-twenties. A memorial service was held for him at 6:00pm on the 5th of September, Boulderfist server time. A score or so members of his guild and other friends gathered in the Valley of Heroes outside Stormwind City and then proceeded to walk to Stormwind Cathedral where they gathered and kneeled in front of the altar. A moment of silence was followed by a 21-gun salute. The funeral party then gathered outside the cathedral and used various fireworks and spell effects to create a light and sound show. A video of the funeral posted to YouTube is accompanied by the Funeral March played on a lone piano and solemn voiceovers paying tribute to Dak Krause, and the video ends with a poem Dak had written in memory of another friend who had died the previous year.
As the story goes, Alicia, a friend of Dak, adapted the poem "Do not Stand at My Grave and Weep" with game world references as a tribute to her friend. She then petitioned Blizzard to make an in-game memorial for Dak. Whether or not this story is true, an NPC in the form of a young human girl called Alicia can be found running and playing about in a garden courtyard in Stormwind Keep. When engaged in conversation she stops and offers a quest called Alicia's Poem, with the dialogue,
"Hi, I wrote a poem for my friend Caylee. She likes to hang out with the Aldor in Shattrath City. You know, in Outland? Could you take my poem to her? My mommy says I'm too young to go to Shattrath City!"
The quest charges the player with the delivery of the game object, Alicia's Poem, to Caylee Dak in Shattrath City, in the Outlands. The object can be opened and read by the player:
Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am in a thousand winds that blow,
across Northrend's bright and shining snow.
I am the gentle showers of rain,
on Westfall's fields of golden grain.
I am in the morning hush,
of Stranglethorn's jungle, green and lush.
I am in the drums loud and grand,
the thunderous hooves across Nagrand.
I am the stars warmly gleaming,
over Darnassus softly dreaming.
I am in the birds that sing,
I am in each lovely thing.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there. I do not die.
Caylee Dak can be found on Aldor Rise in Shattrath City. She is a night elf hunter, accompanied by her combat pet; a large cat called Dusky. When the quest is completed by giving her the poem, she replies, "What a touching poem, thank you!"
Caylee Dak's attire and equipment is identical in appearance to Caylee's equipment recorded on the World of ******** Armory site. In appearance, she is a consistent representation of Caylee the last time she was logged into the game, and a representation of how she was at the moment of Dak's death.
Knowing the story, seeing the memorial in game, and connecting it to Caylee's character profile on the armory is an uncanny experience. The effect is well-described by a comment on the Wowhead website:
"I hadn't heard of Dak Krause when I picked up Alicia's Poem, but when I saw Caylee on Aldor Rise I knew it had to be a memorial. With her mismatched gear she just looks like a player character; I thought she was one at first. I went looking for her in the Armory, and it really struck me when I found it: www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Boulderfist&n=Caylee. Not because of her gear or anything like that. It was the same kind of feeling you get when you walk into the room of someone who is gone, but whose possessions are still where they left them."
Caylee's armory profile remains active, but his account does not seem to have been played since Dak's death. It is interesting to speculate as to whether someone close to Dak has continued to pay his subscription fees to preserve his avatar's existence, or if Blizzard has maintained the account on the armory as part of its memorial to this player. Either way, the elements of this memorial ? background story, Armory profile, NPC modeling ? work together to create the uncanny effect described above.
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In City of Heroes, there was a well-known and respected member of the forums community that sprang up in the Pre-Beta development and Beta of that game named Kiyotee. He passed away shortly after the game went live to the dismay of many. By all accounts he was very much like Angel of Caine, endlessly helpful, funny, and liked by most. The fact that he barely even got to play the game he had done so much work to help people to understand and love was considered a tragedy on top of his death. The game developers quickly memorialized Kiyotee by placing a character named Coyote in his honor into the first version of City of Heroes tutorial. Coyote was the last mission giver you encountered in the tutorial and sent you on to the main game. When a new tutorial replaced the old one with COH Freedom, Coyote was still there to be found as one of the NPCs (hero side) near the choppers that take the character to Atlas Park.
---
In this game, Andy Matthews - a very prominent designer of the Hero Games printed book lore from 2001 until his passing just before Champions Online went live - is memorialized with a plaque in his honor on the Bridge in Matthews Park in North Millenium City.
---
So there is more than ample precedent for Angel of Caine to be remembered in-game in any way that the developers and we the community deem appropriate. I support the idea whole-heartedly.
(I only have ONE slight caveat. And it is only a technical one. I think the idea of a statue is not a bad one. But considering that the distinctive costume worn by AoC's main character is distinctive largely because of coloration rather than modeling, I worry that a statue made of stone wouldn't be able to convey it properly. I suggest a holographic memorial instead. Though if a way can be found to make a regular statue distinctive, I have no complaints.)
Are there not other people who also deserve to be immortalized?
Just considering the long-term implications of such an act...
I'm inclined to agree. My special honor for him was to:
A) keep the Altaholic thread going after he disappeared after I read what happened to him, I added a dedication in writing to that topic.
What I mean by long term implications is who'd be next?
See what I mean? It opens a door to subjective issues... one that can cause all sorts of problems
Some of your points are valid and with sound logic BUT in times like this logic should stay at home. This is all about the love for the man.
Because all the above ( Bluhman and Mona excluded ) are self obsessed troll faces ( nice ones mind :P ) .
Angel of Caine was a voice of reason when so many of us took this Super MMO way to seriously. He reminded us its was just a game and we need to relax and have some fun . He was sort of an unofficial community mod.
Would the world end if Caine got a statue in the niche game he loved so much? No it wouldn't.
Would it be nice if Caine got a statue in the niche game he loved so much? Yes it would be.
I am signed/ for Rox's idea.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I'd just like to share that I believe people have a right to put forward this kind of suggestion as much as any other on the forums. We've campaigned for costume pieces, action figures, patch delays and bubble helmets for bears and wolves. Asking for this kind of gesture from Cryptic, in comparison to all other things we've asked in the past, is as valid and, for many people, even more important.
I am sure Cryptic will consider this, as well as all accompanying factors. CCP (developers of EVE Online) also mentioned how they'd like to commemorate a fallen and influential player of the community, but that their issue was how it wasn't fair to other individuals that passed away and were part of the community.
It's a valid concern and a good point, and I think it's why no-one here among the playerbase would take offense if Cryptic couldn't go through with any of our suggestions. Or at least I know players would be mature about it.
That's why I think there's no need to argue against people campaigning for some way to immortalize AngelofCaine in CO. If the argument is "it's taking away resources from issues that do concern me as a player", that's also pretty moot, since we're the last people who dictate how Cryptic allocates its resources.
I'm sorry, I just don't want people arguing over something like this in the thread. Not because I want one side to have its way, but because, in this particular situation, what happens, happens. It's Cryptic's say and they are likely aware of the implications of either course of action. We shouldn't bicker amongst ourselves. I can understand where the counter-arguments are coming from, and I can accept them, because under different circumstances, I might have been on their side, but it's not about being right or wrong when you're dealing with people who are genuinely sad over the loss of someone close to them. It's something I hope people apply when dealing with individuals in real-life and a veil of anonymity shouldn't make you act differently.
All of this petty arguing is doing two things to me.
1) Showing me just how ugly some people here can really be.
and
2) Making me extremely sorry I even bothered to alert this community about his passing and directing his wife here where she can see this garbage erupting over the memory of her husband. I hope she never sees this thread.
I know we have our issues here, as all communities do, but I hoped we were better than this...
Comments
This is interwebs, i'm allready immortal. I exist in bitstreams of global computer network in cyberspace.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Thank you for saying this. I typed and retyped a response several times and couldn't get the message right.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I would suggest that public (or atleast player based) outcry would suffice or particlarly notable contabutions to the game which brings me to the next section
(this will probably come of as harsh but) The people listed above are still with us should they heaven forbid pass then feel free to put forward there Immortalization I for one would happily support all of them (and in the case of Lohr i've felt for a good long time that the wiki mistress deserves some kind of in game recognition for the wiki but thats another thread)
I'll be honest I cant really think of any truly negative implications other than some one taking offence at the creation of a memorial for a departed member of the community.
People die all the time.
I am in total agreement with Agent.
I couldn't care any less how this plays out though so long as it doesn't affect my fun.
EDIT: What lasting things did Angel do IN GAME btw?
Enjoy your fun and since you don't care, try to stay out of it then.
But i gather that is an impossible achievent for you.
Thanks.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
But before we get over our heads, we need to remember this isn't a debate for who's deserving. It is a community banding together for a token in memory for someone who has been to many a pillar of this community.
This memorial need not be intrusive to people who didn't have the honor of knowing AngelOfCaine. It could simply be a monument, a sculpture with or simply a plaque dedicated to him.
Does this matter? I don't think it's up to you or any of us to decide that. Cryptic will make the decision.
Fact of the matter is that, despite him not being friends with everyone in the game, he made enough of an impact for so many people to come around and say some words, and request for him to be integrated into the game.
There's no need to protest this, people. It's a sensitive subject, so if you don't have anything pleasant to say, I suggest you just move on.
Thank you; I hadn't seen your post when I posted.
I disagree. There are many valid reasons to protest it. Just because a wound is fresh doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.
People are specifically concerned about the precedent it sets. And that is worth discussion. If you don't want to see a in game memorial, you better speak up both HERE and NOW.
I would appreciate it if particularly you, Smackwell, didn't take such a stance as this to silence oppositional opinions on the forums as a forum moderator.
Note that I didn't remove their posts. I think just out of respect they shouldn't be posting like this. The only thing that will come of it is fighting.
Cryptic has already set a precedent for players being tied into the game. It's their decision.
I am just curious. Like I said I don't know the guy, and Whatever memorial you guys arrange I am totally for so long as its unintrusive.
We played together and I'm fairly certain when we did the retool content with Tumerboy he was there in that group as well.
Just the other day I was going through some old in game mail and found a message of him telling me how AWESOME my post telling off then community manager Brodie.. and then jokingly said "Nice knowing you!" foretelling my infraction
The news of his illness was shocking and the news of his passing is still something I can hardly believe.
Giving him tribute in game is the LEAST this company and this community can support for one such as him.
[SIGPIC]http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93012404000&dateline=1344025336[/SIGPIC]
IF it does by all means, edit the arguing.
I think it would be a better hommage than an plaque somewhere in the game.
Also remembering the deads is good but caring about the livings is important too. I do hope the amount of posts about his passing is representative of the support you are all showing to his widow in real life.
I'll do what I think is appropriate, according to the rules.
There's a few ways to go about it, and it should be handled case by case basis by the community in question. Since Caine did help with roxstar being able to be immortalized as such, maybe Crimson Bolt could replace the tempest maybe, but then again I do like seeing that one as is. It's two ways in seeing it as it would make sense for Crimson to show up there.
Some type of small area however added for statues or plaques for those members that do pass. A plaque of some sort and a developed "memorial park of champions" might be a better thing to do and once done, any others that pass can be put here as well. You could also add in figures of the player's mains from a vendor here who tends to the areas. They could be found in separate areas in millenium city, vibora bay, desert, etc.
I looked at those screenshots and I could probably piece together that costume. I think I own all the parts for it.
That isn't just what you said. You also said that people die all of the time and as long as it doesn't get in the way of your all important fun, it doesn't matter to you. Kinda insensitive considering the touchy subject no?
Whatever memorial that would take place if it does take place, rest assured your participation would not be required nor will it be mandatory. If a statue does get placed ingame, I doubt it'd be so intrusive that it would make it difficult for you to go about having your fun. You stated that you don't know the guy (nor care) so I don't see a point in validating anything about him to you. Go about having your precious little fun and leave the rest of us who actually gives a hoot about the guy to go about honoring him.
Regarding the topic..if a statue really turns out to be too much of a request, maybe a plaque will do.
It's disappointing to read a comment like this from a moderator on a discussion forum. So, agree or stay silent is the new rule?
I'm pretty sure I said it was a suggestion, not a rule. You should stop being antagonistic and putting words in my mouth. This is not the place for that.
Note that said moderator has not removed the posts that are in opposition of the idea, yours included. He's just having the understandable observation that making insensitive comments regarding the sensitive subject is only going to lead to fighting. Cut him some slack.
He's saying, use common sense, and don't be a jackass.
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
In a thread talking about ways to give a nod to a fallen community member it's generally a bad idea to try to jump in and tell everyone how their suggestions don't meet your approval and are "getting ridiculous". Your opinions are duly noted.
"A bad idea" to have an opposing opinion? There's no possible way to oppose the majority on this forum and not be demonized in the manner that you're attempting now.
Many people manage it just fine.
It might be nice to have a memorial hall or something in Unity, one that can be added to over time as appropriate. It would be thematic to the game as well as a nice community-building element.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Nobody's demonizing you, but it was certainly bad taste to say that the suggestion is "ridiculous" concerning the sensitive nature of the subject. The intention was to honor the loss of someone in this game's community, and it's a noble one. All you're doing is putting it down and trivialize it by saying we should be honoring fallen servicemen instead, something that's totally irrelevant to the subject. There are more than enough relevant avenues for honoring fallen servicemen.
Also, please do away with the "I'm being oppressed!" on-a-pedestal stance. It's not doing you any favors.
Well, that's certainly better than, "agree or get out". Thank you.
You've said that you're in opposition of the idea for the reasons you have stated. You're entitled to your opinion, as are others are entitled to disagree with it. A disagreement with the tone and nature of your opinion does not equate to asking you to "get out". An opinion that differs from yours being in the majority does not equate to asking you to "get out". All you're doing is claiming that you're being oppressed when you're really not.
2) I think Angel of Caine should be remembered by the community who played with him. But I feel it cheapens him to have Cryptic Monetize his death. So I do not support anything purchasable (sidekick, action figure, or placing his image in a pay to play archetype)
3) The time it would take to erect a statue in Ren Center is simply too much and too valuable. We are talking about taking time away from the environment developers.. If these devs exist at all, their time is the most coveted by players in the game.
4) Angel of Caine had a bold and decisive presence on the forums, but the forums are not the people in game, if we're going to take time and energy away from the game, then it should be decided by the players in the game.
5) I have to reiterate how much this memorial, no matter how implemented, does little to soften the loss of Loren. I find the idea of putting a memorial in a video game to be in poor taste.
6) My negative thoughts about Champions Online should not intersect with my positive thoughts about Loren. There's a secondary effect of tying his memory to this game and that's not fair to him either. (P.S. - I know he'd disagree with me on this one)
- -
So players, specifically players who knew and played with Loren, I implore you to find a better and more personal way to immortalize him.
I suggest turning the Angels of Caine, a character concept he truly cared for, into a supergroup.
It should take a fraction of the time and resources needed to model and implement an actual ingame statue, and it's very low profile if people are really concerned about a statue being intrusive or feel that a single player isn't deserving of something so grand.
1) Others have said this too yet the only one who's cared to elaborate on the whys behind this line of thought used weak examples that in no way equated to this situation.
2) I don't see how using Crimson Bolt's likeness as the face of The Tempest AT is monetizing AoC's death. That's one way of looking at it but it's certainly not the manner in which the original idea is being presented. The idea of the proceeds of purchases going towards a charity really takes the steam out of that argument and should probably be how those purchases should be handled IF purchases are even the route this goes in the first place.
3) I don't know how long it took the devs to make the current racing rings with all the moving parts and glowy bits but I'm fairly sure something far less intricate like a statue or plaque or whatever else that's been suggested so far would take nearly as much time or resources to do.
4) Do you think the Blizzard devs asked the WoW community what they thought before adding their various in-game tributes to players and staff members that died? They didn't, because it's not the players' call.
5) Memorials aren't supposed to soften the blow, they're meant to celebrate and remember the life of the individual who was lost. A public acknowledgement of that person's life.
6) I don't know what to tell you here. If you're willing to let your negative opinion of the game bleed over into why you don't think he should have an in-game memorial then that's squarely on you to sort out.
The US population between the ages of 15 and 54 (assumed range of Champions players) is about 170,788,000 persons.
The number of those who die per day is around 934.
Assuming a conservative Champions player population of 10,000 Americans, one of our number dies about every 20 days. If it's 50,000, that's one every 4 days. Other participating nations with lower or higher death rates in that age range may alter that number some, but likely not by much.
Do those players matter as well, or just the ones the minority of players who frequent the forums happen to like? If so, the game world should fill up pretty fast with statues, plaques, and new NPC's/sidekicks/AF's. If not, then we're a callous bunch, aren't we?
You disagree; there should be no memorial. Duly noted. We've heard your voice, counted your black pebble and ticked the "Nay" column. We got it...
Now please, leave us in peace to mourn our friend...
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
AngelofCaine is just one out of hundreds and thousands of people who die everyday. He's not a special snowflake and doesn't deserve it. Let's just use cold, hard statistics now. Forget the human factor.
Would it make you any happier that there's a remote chance of a plaque or statue ever being implemented in the game due to the utter lack of development focus these days?
How about a plaque that says "In memory of players who have played the game and are no longer with us." instead of being dedicated to a single player. Would that be more appropiate in your eyes?
Good grief.
I like the idea proposed earlier in the thread of making Crimson Bolt a trainer in the powerhouse. He aided a good many people including myself when I first started, so it's poetic. If nothing is chosen to be done however, I'll be a little sad but content knowing how many people will think of him when playing. Hopefully, more will follow his example of helping others.
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You can't just bring out numbers and stuff like that because all those people that died, that aren't AoC, as much as I kinda don't wanna say it: are nobodies.
The difference here is that this was a person who lent a voice and opportunity for us to know him and get close, and to some, become a friend.
Granted you could argue, "oh hey, what about those others that died, blah blah blah", Well then maybe their friends should ask the Dev team on the forums to have a statue about them also.
But wait, nobody is doing that because the player base that is friends with those said nobodies aren't lending their opinion here about it.
The point is this. AoC is important to us, because we make him important to us. Infact, we think he was important enough, that we want to immortalize him somehow within the game. Those other players that "kicked the bucket", well thats sad, but nobody is speaking for them because we simply don't know them.
The community knew AoC, and that is why there is a fight to immortalize him. The argument of 10,000 people play blah blah 5 day each 25th minute of an hour or whatever, is pointless because we didn't know any of those deaths.
We knew this one, and this was the one we cared about.
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
It is in poor taste to disregard this loss as one of "the countless others"
This is exactly what I want to avoid. Honoring one loss should not disregard all of the others. The others lost are NOT nobodies.
You want Crimson Bolt immortalized, and I support the SENTIMENT and your desire to lobby for it.
It simply shouldn't be executed by Cryptic using player funds. Not because Loren doesn't deserve it.. but because Champions Online can't afford it, and no matter how grand or elaborate, it will never be enough.
I still think a plaque or statue in the park in the north part of town - MacDonald Park, isn't it? - would be appropriate. Heck, there's already a memorial plaque there - another wouldn't hurt...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Because I am a shareholder. Satisfied? Oh and not to mention I actually DID play with Angel of Caine. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. They will not go unnoticed and do little more than show the content of YOUR character.
WoW is often cited as an example. And I would like to point to the following article that speaks about many of the more prominent ways Blizzard has helped to memorialize both developers and players who have passed away in game. Some in quiet ways, and some in rather spectacular fashion.
Tombstones, Uncanny Monuments and Epic Quests: Memorials in World of ********
Many MMO players already know of The Shrine of the Fallen Warrior in the Badlands of WoW.
But there are others as well that are less well known.
---
In City of Heroes, there was a well-known and respected member of the forums community that sprang up in the Pre-Beta development and Beta of that game named Kiyotee. He passed away shortly after the game went live to the dismay of many. By all accounts he was very much like Angel of Caine, endlessly helpful, funny, and liked by most. The fact that he barely even got to play the game he had done so much work to help people to understand and love was considered a tragedy on top of his death. The game developers quickly memorialized Kiyotee by placing a character named Coyote in his honor into the first version of City of Heroes tutorial. Coyote was the last mission giver you encountered in the tutorial and sent you on to the main game. When a new tutorial replaced the old one with COH Freedom, Coyote was still there to be found as one of the NPCs (hero side) near the choppers that take the character to Atlas Park.
---
In this game, Andy Matthews - a very prominent designer of the Hero Games printed book lore from 2001 until his passing just before Champions Online went live - is memorialized with a plaque in his honor on the Bridge in Matthews Park in North Millenium City.
---
So there is more than ample precedent for Angel of Caine to be remembered in-game in any way that the developers and we the community deem appropriate. I support the idea whole-heartedly.
(I only have ONE slight caveat. And it is only a technical one. I think the idea of a statue is not a bad one. But considering that the distinctive costume worn by AoC's main character is distinctive largely because of coloration rather than modeling, I worry that a statue made of stone wouldn't be able to convey it properly. I suggest a holographic memorial instead. Though if a way can be found to make a regular statue distinctive, I have no complaints.)
Touching and meaningful. Thanks for the post.
Some of your points are valid and with sound logic BUT in times like this logic should stay at home. This is all about the love for the man.
Because all the above ( Bluhman and Mona excluded ) are self obsessed troll faces ( nice ones mind :P ) .
Angel of Caine was a voice of reason when so many of us took this Super MMO way to seriously. He reminded us its was just a game and we need to relax and have some fun . He was sort of an unofficial community mod.
Would the world end if Caine got a statue in the niche game he loved so much? No it wouldn't.
Would it be nice if Caine got a statue in the niche game he loved so much? Yes it would be.
I am signed/ for Rox's idea.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
AoC was one of the first to try and welcome us City of Heroes Ex-pats to Champions. It's only right that we return the favor.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am sure Cryptic will consider this, as well as all accompanying factors. CCP (developers of EVE Online) also mentioned how they'd like to commemorate a fallen and influential player of the community, but that their issue was how it wasn't fair to other individuals that passed away and were part of the community.
It's a valid concern and a good point, and I think it's why no-one here among the playerbase would take offense if Cryptic couldn't go through with any of our suggestions. Or at least I know players would be mature about it.
That's why I think there's no need to argue against people campaigning for some way to immortalize AngelofCaine in CO. If the argument is "it's taking away resources from issues that do concern me as a player", that's also pretty moot, since we're the last people who dictate how Cryptic allocates its resources.
I'm sorry, I just don't want people arguing over something like this in the thread. Not because I want one side to have its way, but because, in this particular situation, what happens, happens. It's Cryptic's say and they are likely aware of the implications of either course of action. We shouldn't bicker amongst ourselves. I can understand where the counter-arguments are coming from, and I can accept them, because under different circumstances, I might have been on their side, but it's not about being right or wrong when you're dealing with people who are genuinely sad over the loss of someone close to them. It's something I hope people apply when dealing with individuals in real-life and a veil of anonymity shouldn't make you act differently.
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1) Showing me just how ugly some people here can really be.
and
2) Making me extremely sorry I even bothered to alert this community about his passing and directing his wife here where she can see this garbage erupting over the memory of her husband. I hope she never sees this thread.
I know we have our issues here, as all communities do, but I hoped we were better than this...
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