@Cybersoldier
Wish we could discuss this without taking it too personal.
I have no means to offend you. If you did feel offended, my appologies, Cybersoldier.
@Jonsills
Yes, that could be the case.
But I do find it quite difficult to get the Legion set and the rank 9 mods.
Compared to, for example DN which is quite full of bots, in CO it seems to be a bit more difficult to acquire the items of such caliber.
PS: I see that this is a very delicate subject on these forums.
And from my observations, you can get chat banned without even playing the game, whether it be from people placing you on ignore while you're offline or ignoring you while you remotely chat in a custom channel via XMPP clients.
Just want to add, simply because i've been seeing folks mention that this system is new or was added with the PWE buyout.
This is incorrect. Its my understanding that this system has been part of the game from the get go. Or at the very least from the start of STO. I started STO on day one and know the system existed at that point. So this is not something that can be blamed on PWE.
And while I find the system horribly flawed. I can understand Pizzataros view on it. As an MMO gypsy. I can say that ive seen the best and the worst out there. There are places, dark, dismal, places that could honestly benefit from a similar system. As bad as zone chat gets here its down right civil compared to the neither regions one can wander into, in the F2P world.
My own opinion on it, the problem, isn't the system itself. But the lack of oversight. Its obvious there is zero follow up, at all, over a muting. No one is taken to task for abuse of the system. No one is reviewing the system at all.
Its easier for a few CSRs to monitor reports then to monitor the game itself. Its faster to have an automated system counter bots and spammers then it is to get a live CSR in to solve a problem. In this context the system isn't bad. Its just been left to rot due to neglect....like most things Cryptic. And that has left the door open for abuse.
@Cybersoldier
Wish we could discuss this without taking it too personal.
I have no means to offend you. If you did feel offended, my appologies, Cybersoldier.
PS: I see that this is a very delicate subject on these forums.
I'm not sure where you get that I've been 'offended' or that we're taking this 'personal'. If I've given you that impression... I'm baffled. So, just so you're aware, there is nothing to be offended about. I'm simply trying to educate you on why people hate this and the problems it has caused.
No one has been offended
/me looks at Biffsmackwell suspiciously...
But you have to understand, this is a system that since the dawn of its introduction has been nothing but problematic. And as Biff pointed out, people on the game often use it to troll and grief roleplayers, usually after accusing us of not having 'real friends' or 'no life'... despite the irony of the situation being that, in my honest opinion, logging onto a game just to be an obnoxious prick to others is a legitimate sign of having absolutely no life. Roleplayers often get the worst of it, and to be fair- the deliver their fair share of the worst of it to one another. I've seen it happen over In-Character relationships, losing duels, and things of that nature.
It has been abused countless times. And countless times have we, the playerbase, approached Cryptic/PWE about ways to fix the problem.
We were told there'd be no GM's appointed.
Tickets submitted come back 2 days later with a copy/paste explaination of how the chat ban system operates and lazily dismisses your claim.
We have asked for everything to include lowering the amount of time that the ban takes. Even World of ******** will only ban you for a half hour or an hour, or I think maybe even ten minutes.
It takes a significant amount of 'ignores' to silence someone, and they all must take place in a set amount of time. However, if I'm not mistaken, Report Spam is a sure-fire way to lock down someone's communication.
Now, to address you- you keep asking to discuss this 'differently', and as far as I can tell you just want me to agree with you. I won't, and no one else will.
I know I keep repeating it, but what irritates me is that 'ignore' can lead to a chat ban, when all you really wanted to do was not listen to someone.
Also, on STO, chat bans become griefing tools. Let's say someone is selling a ship for a price lower than what you want to sell it for. You and friends Report Spam on the person, shut them down. Now you get one less competitor! (I imagine this happens on CO, too, come to think of it -- for things like Dark Speed or whatever. I've just been playing STO a lot more, lately)
Perhaps you don't like Americans/Brazilians/Lithuanians/Whatevers... you and your group Report Spams any of them you see. This has happened many times.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
It seems like this method of shutting people's chat privileges down is gaining in popularity. I am curious what safeguards, if any, are in place to stop it from escalating into EVERYONE being silenced. In theory, a group could ban several people. Anytime anyone says ANYTHING, ban them. Until no one can chat.
I hope that this can't happen. However, I am leaning to the pessimistic side. Maybe this scenario happening will be what it takes to show the system is flawed.
Also, on STO, chat bans become griefing tools. Let's say someone is selling a ship for a price lower than what you want to sell it for. You and friends Report Spam on the person, shut them down. Now you get one less competitor! (I imagine this happens on CO, too, come to think of it -- for things like Dark Speed or whatever. I've just been playing STO a lot more, lately)
Perhaps you don't like Americans/Brazilians/Lithuanians/Whatevers... you and your group Report Spams any of them you see. This has happened many times.
Just wait until Neverwinter comes out. It is going to have a huge amount of banhappy griefers right from the start. And I'm really looking forward to the press Cryptic's finest will get for it. :rolleyes:
Argghhhh GOD!!! I HATE THIS!!! For christ sake, I am 6.5 in armor!!! It's not my fault that every player wants to have a maxed out height slider with maxed out legs and be 9 foot giants walking everywhere.
Superman wasn't even 7 feet for christ sake. I just think too many people are compensating to try and look awesome in size, when in fact, I look awesome just being 6.5 :biggrin:
And then Flare explained everything. Player-based chat bans are bad. Here's why:
Both "Ignore" and "Report Spam" functions are the same. They put a certain amount of demerits on a character and once they reach a certain level, the player is chat banned. A single player can repeatedly report or ignore someone, stacking their demerits and eventually chat banning them. A group can do this at quicker speeds. Regardless of status, paying subscriber or not, this system is readily available. This system was originally made for "Gold Spammers" but since there aren't any in the game--well, does that make sense to you? The chat system works across multiple games and because of this cryptic reasoning, they refuse to change it.
No one player should be able to control the gaming experience of another. It's morally wrong, and economically wrong. I have hosted numerous events and have been harassed and banned several times simply for their amusement, or because they were sore losers in a contest. My friends have been chat-banned because they won a PvP match and some have even been banned for refusing to roleplay with others.
Myself and people much smarter than me have offered opinions, ideas, and help to fixing the situation--all of which are listed below in the #'d links. These include increasing the demerit level to a ridiculously unobtainable amount, removing the system wide chat server and make it per game, remove the ability for players to ban others (as they should imo) for ALL their games, and finally at the VERY LEAST, stop the ignore function from giving demerits. In doing the last one however, they show it can be done which, for us against the player-based chat ban system is a win. We'd then push for no demerits at all and for GM reviews of actual incidents--as there should be.
It seems like this method of shutting people's chat privileges down is gaining in popularity. I am curious what safeguards, if any, are in place to stop it from escalating into EVERYONE being silenced. In theory, a group could ban several people. Anytime anyone says ANYTHING, ban them. Until no one can chat.
I hope that this can't happen. However, I am leaning to the pessimistic side. Maybe this scenario happening will be what it takes to show the system is flawed.
There are no safeguards whatsoever. Period.
For that matter, I don't even know (and thus doubt) if the system records names when you /ignore someone. /report_spammer I'd think so, but ignore? I dunno.
Just remember that both (stupidly) allow you to chat ban someone. And there's NO way to reset said internal counter of how many /ignore and /report_spammer you have on your account short of GETTING BANNED.
What about this? Make the ignore feature cost something to use, say 1000 Zen. Each time you ignore someone, your account gets deducted, and if there isn't enough Zen you can't ignore someone.
It won't prevent the potential abuse completely, but I think if someone has to shell out the equivalent of $10 to try to shut you up they may think twice about it.
What about this? Make the ignore feature cost something to use, say 1000 Zen. Each time you ignore someone, your account gets deducted, and if there isn't enough Zen you can't ignore someone.
It won't prevent the potential abuse completely, but I think if someone has to shell out the equivalent of $10 to try to shut you up they may think twice about it.
A 10$ fee for ignoring someone? Wow. Now that's unethical. :eek:
Sadly though, I can see PWE doing that - instead of removing the abusable ban system! :rolleyes:
What about this? Make the ignore feature cost something to use, say 1000 Zen. Each time you ignore someone, your account gets deducted, and if there isn't enough Zen you can't ignore someone.
It won't prevent the potential abuse completely, but I think if someone has to shell out the equivalent of $10 to try to shut you up they may think twice about it.
tl;dr version of my previous post: Players should not have the ability to control the gaming experience of other players.
Whether it's free or if they have to pay. My point still stands.
A 10$ fee for ignoring someone? Wow. Now that's unethical. :eek:
Sadly though, I can see PWE doing that - instead of removing the abusable ban system! :rolleyes:
how about this... every time someone adds you to ignore and counts toward a chat ban... it informs the person. gives you the persons name and time they did it... so you can in turn RETURN THE FAVOR. Ta Da! now someone won't randomly chat ban you without getting banned and ONLY a level 40's report will silence a player (to keep someone from making a mock account to block players).
also a person can only report 5 players a day to stop mass spamming of chat bans.
how about this... every time someone adds you to ignore and counts toward a chat ban... it informs the person. gives you the persons name and time they did it... so you can in turn RETURN THE FAVOR. Ta Da! now someone won't randomly chat ban you without getting banned and ONLY a level 40's report will silence a player (to keep someone from making a mock account to block players).
also a person can only report 5 players a day to stop mass spamming of chat bans.
None of what you listed except for the report limit would help alleviate the chat ban abuse. Level gating in a game where leveling is a joke isn't much of a barrier in the long run.
Getting to 40 isn't difficult or very time consuming so no, I'm gonna have to disagree. For all we know, the majority of the abusers could be sitting around on their level 40s report spamming out of boredom.
Actually, any "preventative measure" cannot be aimed or geared for single players, as it is impossible for a single player with only one account to chat ban anyone. I know, because I tried just to see if a single player could actually do this thing.
I picked someone at random, and clicked their name in zone chat. Report Spam'd them, then took them off ignore to do it again. I did this at least thirty times and at no time was I able to silence them.
Any method to solve the abuse of the system must be aimed at a larger population, or the system itself.
Actually, any "preventative measure" cannot be aimed or geared for single players, as it is impossible for a single player with only one account to chat ban anyone. I know, because I tried just to see if a single player could actually do this thing.
I picked someone at random, and clicked their name in zone chat. Report Spam'd them, then took them off ignore to do it again. I did this at least thirty times and at no time was I able to silence them.
Any method to solve the abuse of the system must be aimed at a larger population, or the system itself.
The claim is that a single person can chat ban you, not a single account. There is a subtle difference.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Comments
Wish we could discuss this without taking it too personal.
I have no means to offend you. If you did feel offended, my appologies, Cybersoldier.
@Jonsills
Yes, that could be the case.
But I do find it quite difficult to get the Legion set and the rank 9 mods.
Compared to, for example DN which is quite full of bots, in CO it seems to be a bit more difficult to acquire the items of such caliber.
PS: I see that this is a very delicate subject on these forums.
Yes, but don't take that as any indication that you should stop discussing it.
Yep, happened to me.
This is incorrect. Its my understanding that this system has been part of the game from the get go. Or at the very least from the start of STO. I started STO on day one and know the system existed at that point. So this is not something that can be blamed on PWE.
And while I find the system horribly flawed. I can understand Pizzataros view on it. As an MMO gypsy. I can say that ive seen the best and the worst out there. There are places, dark, dismal, places that could honestly benefit from a similar system. As bad as zone chat gets here its down right civil compared to the neither regions one can wander into, in the F2P world.
My own opinion on it, the problem, isn't the system itself. But the lack of oversight. Its obvious there is zero follow up, at all, over a muting. No one is taken to task for abuse of the system. No one is reviewing the system at all.
Its easier for a few CSRs to monitor reports then to monitor the game itself. Its faster to have an automated system counter bots and spammers then it is to get a live CSR in to solve a problem. In this context the system isn't bad. Its just been left to rot due to neglect....like most things Cryptic. And that has left the door open for abuse.
No one has been offended
/me looks at Biffsmackwell suspiciously...
But you have to understand, this is a system that since the dawn of its introduction has been nothing but problematic. And as Biff pointed out, people on the game often use it to troll and grief roleplayers, usually after accusing us of not having 'real friends' or 'no life'... despite the irony of the situation being that, in my honest opinion, logging onto a game just to be an obnoxious prick to others is a legitimate sign of having absolutely no life. Roleplayers often get the worst of it, and to be fair- the deliver their fair share of the worst of it to one another. I've seen it happen over In-Character relationships, losing duels, and things of that nature.
It has been abused countless times. And countless times have we, the playerbase, approached Cryptic/PWE about ways to fix the problem.
We were told there'd be no GM's appointed.
Tickets submitted come back 2 days later with a copy/paste explaination of how the chat ban system operates and lazily dismisses your claim.
We have asked for everything to include lowering the amount of time that the ban takes. Even World of ******** will only ban you for a half hour or an hour, or I think maybe even ten minutes.
It takes a significant amount of 'ignores' to silence someone, and they all must take place in a set amount of time. However, if I'm not mistaken, Report Spam is a sure-fire way to lock down someone's communication.
Now, to address you- you keep asking to discuss this 'differently', and as far as I can tell you just want me to agree with you. I won't, and no one else will.
Also, on STO, chat bans become griefing tools. Let's say someone is selling a ship for a price lower than what you want to sell it for. You and friends Report Spam on the person, shut them down. Now you get one less competitor! (I imagine this happens on CO, too, come to think of it -- for things like Dark Speed or whatever. I've just been playing STO a lot more, lately)
Perhaps you don't like Americans/Brazilians/Lithuanians/Whatevers... you and your group Report Spams any of them you see. This has happened many times.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I hope that this can't happen. However, I am leaning to the pessimistic side. Maybe this scenario happening will be what it takes to show the system is flawed.
Just wait until Neverwinter comes out. It is going to have a huge amount of banhappy griefers right from the start. And I'm really looking forward to the press Cryptic's finest will get for it. :rolleyes:
Damn those stumpy Caliga legs!
Both "Ignore" and "Report Spam" functions are the same. They put a certain amount of demerits on a character and once they reach a certain level, the player is chat banned. A single player can repeatedly report or ignore someone, stacking their demerits and eventually chat banning them. A group can do this at quicker speeds. Regardless of status, paying subscriber or not, this system is readily available. This system was originally made for "Gold Spammers" but since there aren't any in the game--well, does that make sense to you? The chat system works across multiple games and because of this cryptic reasoning, they refuse to change it.
No one player should be able to control the gaming experience of another. It's morally wrong, and economically wrong. I have hosted numerous events and have been harassed and banned several times simply for their amusement, or because they were sore losers in a contest. My friends have been chat-banned because they won a PvP match and some have even been banned for refusing to roleplay with others.
Myself and people much smarter than me have offered opinions, ideas, and help to fixing the situation--all of which are listed below in the #'d links. These include increasing the demerit level to a ridiculously unobtainable amount, removing the system wide chat server and make it per game, remove the ability for players to ban others (as they should imo) for ALL their games, and finally at the VERY LEAST, stop the ignore function from giving demerits. In doing the last one however, they show it can be done which, for us against the player-based chat ban system is a win. We'd then push for no demerits at all and for GM reviews of actual incidents--as there should be.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
There are no safeguards whatsoever. Period.
For that matter, I don't even know (and thus doubt) if the system records names when you /ignore someone. /report_spammer I'd think so, but ignore? I dunno.
Just remember that both (stupidly) allow you to chat ban someone. And there's NO way to reset said internal counter of how many /ignore and /report_spammer you have on your account short of GETTING BANNED.
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Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It won't prevent the potential abuse completely, but I think if someone has to shell out the equivalent of $10 to try to shut you up they may think twice about it.
A 10$ fee for ignoring someone? Wow. Now that's unethical. :eek:
Sadly though, I can see PWE doing that - instead of removing the abusable ban system! :rolleyes:
tl;dr version of my previous post: Players should not have the ability to control the gaming experience of other players.
Whether it's free or if they have to pay. My point still stands.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
Ethics? What are these ethics you speak of?
I'd be perfectly happy with a no-demerit system. I just figured I'd make the extreme suggestion that Cryptic would probably implement.
also a person can only report 5 players a day to stop mass spamming of chat bans.
None of what you listed except for the report limit would help alleviate the chat ban abuse. Level gating in a game where leveling is a joke isn't much of a barrier in the long run.
Getting to 40 isn't difficult or very time consuming so no, I'm gonna have to disagree. For all we know, the majority of the abusers could be sitting around on their level 40s report spamming out of boredom.
I picked someone at random, and clicked their name in zone chat. Report Spam'd them, then took them off ignore to do it again. I did this at least thirty times and at no time was I able to silence them.
Any method to solve the abuse of the system must be aimed at a larger population, or the system itself.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
The claim is that a single person can chat ban you, not a single account. There is a subtle difference.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.