Thanks to all the folks who sent me tells debunking his incredible hyprocrisy. I'm done with this thread too. No reason to continue being polite and courteous when we obviously have someone lacking any sense of maturity.
Still waitin on your video buddy. Snake-hate club is over there >>>
That video proves nothing, anyone could have done that.
In fact, I will create a video showing how much better aura of non-drowsy relief is for tanking by going against 4 WHOLE HENCHMEN.
That video proves nothing, anyone could have done that.
In fact, I will create a video showing how much better aura of non-drowsy relief is for tanking by going against 4 WHOLE HENCHMEN.
Good guide. Very good, this is defiance done right. My only small quibble is invuldodge.
evasive, parry/adv, masterful dodge, and some gambler's gems? Its pretty possible to pull a similar effect. Not *quite* as effective, but it has similar properties while also being able to basically pull an entire zone and not get dented. Granted, means nothing, but it sure makes speed runs easier. We all know how well defiance (although you beefed this up quite a bit) does with the small pings. I'd hazard a guess that a good invuldodge might be better suited to lair-style content, by nature of design. Not that your idea wouldn't hold water, too, just that you're running more of a big boss spec. I'd love to see you pull all of the mobs leading up to the collossi to see the beating you take, compared to an invuldodge. I'd bet he'd have less issues with the lead up, and more dealing with the main event. I can't imagine either having many issues with most of the current content in game, tho.
As to the actives? I agree. I tend to roll a lot of ADs for my squishies (and anyone that's rolled with chernobyl recently can tell that she's a tank in her own right, that build just refuses to die) and AOs for my tanks, purely for solo and farming. More dps in that case just makes the farming faster, but that's the "do what you will" part you covered.
I agree, tho, that editing your op with your suggested powers is a good idea. Mostly, I can't copypasta to fiddle with your ideas off of youtube.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Yeah invuln is definitely a better choice when you want to rush through mobs like nothing straight away. Even better if you get like 3 Defiance stacks from Defensive Combo but thats leading into faulty powers and stuff.
Defiance can do the same with IDF, bad part (where Invuln Excels) is that Defiance has to ramp up, and you cant pick Concentration/Focus whilst wearing IDF. Reason i go Defiance though is because its 4 Advantage Points spared, so if i wanna up the damage a bit but take a bit more from mobs then its Defiance/Focus and i'v saved a tonne of Adv points for the rest of the build.
Really wish people trying to detract from what Snake has said (and shown) would put up or shut up. He showed what he was talking about, he didn't just say it he blatantly showed it. Disagree? Show why or move on. So tired of people theorcrafting against something blatantly shown to them on these boards and then making unverified claims.
IMO, Fire Snake would be better than Defile, unless it doesn't fit your theme. Same cost as a Defile tap, longer duration, and a larger debuff. It's also AoE.
I agree completely on the usefulness of ADs for a Tank. Sure it's great to have, but honestly... I have never really needed to use one on any of my tanks. Get low on health... oops, *pops Conviction*. AOs however, those I really like on a tank. Very nice for a threat buff at the beginning of a pull. Having it as a hold breaker for later is nice too.
I kind of want to give Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares) an honorable mention as a Fear applier. Sure Howl has a larger radius and also grants Enrage, but VS has a super low cooldown and is a Lunge which is always useful for tanks.
Thanks for bringing Ice Cage (Sub-Zero Cellblock) and Miniaturization Drive to my attention. Very useful abilities that I'm somewhat embarrassed to have overlooked before.
Reason i go Defiance though is because its 4 Advantage Points spared
Technically, they're not since you put them into IDF in your vid.
Rank Invlun and take an offensive Form, or take Defiance and rank IDF. More of a flip-flop of points really.
... Disagree? Show why or move on. So tired of people theorcrafting against something blatantly shown to them on these boards and then making unverified claims.
And then stating that those unverified claims are concrete facts.
I'm speaking in general terms, beyond this thread.
IMO, Fire Snake would be better than Defile, unless it doesn't fit your theme. Same cost as a Defile tap, longer duration, and a larger debuff. It's also AoE.
I agree completely on the usefulness of ADs for a Tank. Sure it's great to have, but honestly... I have never really needed to use one on any of my tanks. Get low on health... oops, *pops Conviction*. AOs however, those I really like on a tank. Very nice for a threat buff at the beginning of a pull. Having it as a hold breaker for later is nice too.
I kind of want to give Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares) an honorable mention as a Fear applier. Sure Howl has a larger radius and also grants Enrage, but VS has a super low cooldown and is a Lunge which is always useful for tanks.
Thanks for bringing Ice Cage (Sub-Zero Cellblock) and Miniaturization Drive to my attention. Very useful abilities that I'm somewhat embarrassed to have overlooked before.
Technically, they're not since you put them into IDF in your vid.
Rank Invlun and take an offensive Form, or take Defiance and rank IDF. More of a flip-flop of points really.
Very good points, in fact on an old build i used i put Firesnake AND Defile-Tap to use.
I like howl for its AoE factor, but wierdly enough iv never bothered with it for its enrage refresh. A lot of my Tanks arent Ultimate tanks, so i put Defiance and Focus on, which is where i save the most points in total. I prefer this to have a good cheap defense and leave open a lot of possibilities.
Really wish people trying to detract from what Snake has said (and shown) would put up or shut up. He showed what he was talking about, he didn't just say it he blatantly showed it. Disagree? Show why or move on. So tired of people theorcrafting against something blatantly shown to them on these boards and then making unverified claims.
Agreed. Hell, I think he's flat out right, this is very legit basic tanking. I kinda wish there was more "and this is also viable" discussion and less "Screw snake, he obviously knows nothing". Of course, then again, this wouldn't be the internet were that the case, huh?
Snake, you make incredibly great points. I guess part of my fanboyism of the invuldodge is that it's what I first started tanking with. I couldn't say it's better than defiance, depending on the situations you plan to encounter. Definitely a bit easier for general stuff, because too many mobs in this game just do fast pings. But it's like arguing if it's better to use a tank or a battle mech. Neither's a bad choice when your enemies are using sling shots, I feel like the only question there is are you willing to risk taking a bit more damage up front, if you're bad at stack maintenance. I'm pretty sure anyone that tries to call defiance less than the best possible choice for bigger bosses or grav is just making stuff up.
One thing that surprises me, tho, is that you're the first defiance tank I've seen that didn't primary con. I like your reasoning behind it, but still. That's an interesting choice, and what first got my attention about this theory.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Snake: I'm trying to read the stats in your Character window, but even on the highest quality, they're kind of fuzzy. Are they Dex 264, Con 204, and Pre 154?
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I had a character who could thematically use this, so messed around with the guidelines from the video.
First off, I made some different choices with powers. My CC move was Backhand Chop, my CC move was One Hundred Hands, and I used Havoc Stomp with the advantage for the debuff. Other than that, it was mostly the same build.
Did two fights against Gravitar, one in hybrid, the other in tank role. Died once in both, but due to my stupidity. I got overconfident in the first run and just didn't block -at all-, which says a lot about first impressions. I was basically taking it like a man from Gravitar's bubbles. In the second one, I missed to block a hold, and was followed up by a yellow orb of doom.
Speaking of yellow orb of doom, it dealt around 4K through my block when I was dead-center in it, which is quite good IMO.
My only current problem is energy management, but I'll swap in MSA and hope that helps a bit.
So yea, if people can afford to use this with their tank characters, I say go for it. It's a demanding, but effective build. Thanks for posting this, Snake.
I'm a returning player and so much has changed so forgive me if these questions are uncalled for. Is there...maybe a way to make this work with my lev 32 Might-attack using, cavewoman-themed toon? I think I can get around things like COPM as passing it off as some ancient tribal magic-type stuff but I'm not sure how I'll pull off techie-looking fields and dark magic attacks with her being a cavewoman.
What do you think, gang? Is there a way to keep at least good chunk of this guide's effectiveness without having to pick some possibly theme-breaking animations for some of our toons?
Snake: I'm trying to read the stats in your Character window, but even on the highest quality, they're kind of fuzzy. Are they Dex 264, Con 204, and Pre 154?
Theyre about that yeah, though a little more CON wouldnt harm the build much.
In this kind of build i do suggest keeping the ratio around:
Dex 240
Con 240
Pre 150
Aim for something like that. Make sure your gear includes Dodge/Avoidance and also Cost Discount+. The primary mod can be anything, +Healing% and +Critical Strike/Crit Severity i mostly suggest.
Backhand Chop is a beast of a power, very underrated in my opinion. Luv it An' hey if you use it during gravitar's yellow bubble, it will cancel it. So you wont even need to take those hits at all! So long as you time it right, you'll save lives.
Is there a way to keep at least good chunk of this guide's effectiveness without having to pick some possibly theme-breaking animations for some of our toons?
The powers themselves can be anything of your choice, including theme'd selections (whilst keeping FULL effectiveness).
If you like i could make a video of some of these tanks with other bunches of powers to show you.
I think I can get around things like COPM as passing it off as some ancient tribal magic-type .
Remember, without Circle of Primal Dominion, enemies like gravitar will start Knocking you all over the place, you will need Knock Resistance. The extra advantage on Defiance only works when youre low health, so its not really a good choice.
You could always switch your primary SS for STR instead of DEX for knock resistance, but then your heals wont crit, and that would jeopardize your survivability.
Theyre about that yeah, though a little more CON wouldnt harm the build much.
In this kind of build i do suggest keeping the ratio around:
Dex 240
Con 240
Pre 150
Aim for something like that. Make sure your gear includes Dodge/Avoidance and also Cost Discount+. The primary mod can be anything, +Healing% and +Critical Strike/Crit Severity i mostly suggest.
Backhand Chop is a beast of a power, very underrated in my opinion. Luv it An' hey if you use it during gravitar's yellow bubble, it will cancel it. So you wont even need to take those hits at all! So long as you time it right, you'll save lives.
The powers themselves can be anything of your choice, including theme'd selections (whilst keeping FULL effectiveness).
If you like i could make a video of some of these tanks with other bunches of powers to show you.
Remember, without Circle of Primal Dominion, enemies like gravitar will start Knocking you all over the place, you will need Knock Resistance. The extra advantage on Defiance only works when youre low health, so its not really a good choice.
You could always switch your primary SS for STR instead of DEX for knock resistance, but then your heals wont crit, and that would jeopardize your survivability.
Very nice video with tons of useful advice and explanations for newbies and vets alike. I'll propably use this as a blueprint to make a Shadow Colossi tank at some point, looks like fun.
The powers themselves can be anything of your choice, including theme'd selections (whilst keeping FULL effectiveness).
If you like i could make a video of some of these tanks with other bunches of powers to show you.
.
That would be great, Snake. Thanks in advance for taking the time to do this.
Working on leveling up a version of this sort of tank right now. Basically just plagiarizing your build at the moment so I can get the basics down.
I'm at 30 and I'm finding that, even though Defiance is primarily a "big threat" passive, rather than a "Hold off groups" passive, I'm able to QUITE effectively hold off relatively large groups of enemies with little to no effort and almost no danger at all.
I have a 31 freeform I just retconned to this build. Its been pretty tough so far though I did die once to one of the alert villains. Didn't block enough on Jack Fool or one of those tougher ones in the alerts and got held after a big hit. Otherwise its been pretty easy to get agro and survive the hits. Looking forward to the higher level build and better gear (still have too much of the old build gear I had before retcon).
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It took me a while to try to learn from videos and reading, your guide was by far the most helpful but I'm not sure if this build will work like yours does. I can change any of the powers arround or switch them out, so feed back is very very helpful. Thank you
After watching the video, and slowly and surely clicking and copying the majority of the build as-is, along with my own selections of powers, this is what I have produced to be referenced:
Snakes latest builds has proved that getting CON as a primary, boosting that up as high as possible and getting the Knock Resist spec ability, and focusing on powers that heal you a percentage of your maximum health will give you tons of incoming heals and give you more survivability over all.
The build this thread is about still works really well, but changing it up for your own taste is fine as long as you think about your own survivability.
Comments
Still waitin on your video buddy. Snake-hate club is over there >>>
Trollface.jpg
Down with defiance all hail unstoppable master passive.
No, I'm talking Medical Nanites in Melee Offense role.
OPHax.jpg
Shazaam.
Suck it, yo.
In fact, I will create a video showing how much better aura of non-drowsy relief is for tanking by going against 4 WHOLE HENCHMEN.
EDIT: AND MAYBE A VILLAIN TOO.
Dude, pics or it didn't happen.
evasive, parry/adv, masterful dodge, and some gambler's gems? Its pretty possible to pull a similar effect. Not *quite* as effective, but it has similar properties while also being able to basically pull an entire zone and not get dented. Granted, means nothing, but it sure makes speed runs easier. We all know how well defiance (although you beefed this up quite a bit) does with the small pings. I'd hazard a guess that a good invuldodge might be better suited to lair-style content, by nature of design. Not that your idea wouldn't hold water, too, just that you're running more of a big boss spec. I'd love to see you pull all of the mobs leading up to the collossi to see the beating you take, compared to an invuldodge. I'd bet he'd have less issues with the lead up, and more dealing with the main event. I can't imagine either having many issues with most of the current content in game, tho.
As to the actives? I agree. I tend to roll a lot of ADs for my squishies (and anyone that's rolled with chernobyl recently can tell that she's a tank in her own right, that build just refuses to die) and AOs for my tanks, purely for solo and farming. More dps in that case just makes the farming faster, but that's the "do what you will" part you covered.
I agree, tho, that editing your op with your suggested powers is a good idea. Mostly, I can't copypasta to fiddle with your ideas off of youtube.
RIP Caine
Yeah invuln is definitely a better choice when you want to rush through mobs like nothing straight away. Even better if you get like 3 Defiance stacks from Defensive Combo but thats leading into faulty powers and stuff.
Defiance can do the same with IDF, bad part (where Invuln Excels) is that Defiance has to ramp up, and you cant pick Concentration/Focus whilst wearing IDF. Reason i go Defiance though is because its 4 Advantage Points spared, so if i wanna up the damage a bit but take a bit more from mobs then its Defiance/Focus and i'v saved a tonne of Adv points for the rest of the build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIj9yFKzvSk
Like here, 1 Collossus and 100+ mobs, Defiance and IDF does the job. Invuln would be better for the mobs.
My reason i go for defiance is higher end result of defense, and the energy return.
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no no no, it's ebon void+adv, devour essense conviction, bcr THEN defiance/idf...
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Those hundreds of 1 Damage and 2 Damage can actually start to add up.
IMO, Fire Snake would be better than Defile, unless it doesn't fit your theme. Same cost as a Defile tap, longer duration, and a larger debuff. It's also AoE.
I agree completely on the usefulness of ADs for a Tank. Sure it's great to have, but honestly... I have never really needed to use one on any of my tanks. Get low on health... oops, *pops Conviction*. AOs however, those I really like on a tank. Very nice for a threat buff at the beginning of a pull. Having it as a hold breaker for later is nice too.
I kind of want to give Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares) an honorable mention as a Fear applier. Sure Howl has a larger radius and also grants Enrage, but VS has a super low cooldown and is a Lunge which is always useful for tanks.
Thanks for bringing Ice Cage (Sub-Zero Cellblock) and Miniaturization Drive to my attention. Very useful abilities that I'm somewhat embarrassed to have overlooked before.
Technically, they're not since you put them into IDF in your vid.
Rank Invlun and take an offensive Form, or take Defiance and rank IDF. More of a flip-flop of points really.
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And then stating that those unverified claims are concrete facts.
I'm speaking in general terms, beyond this thread.
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Yup, that too.
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Very good points, in fact on an old build i used i put Firesnake AND Defile-Tap to use.
I like howl for its AoE factor, but wierdly enough iv never bothered with it for its enrage refresh. A lot of my Tanks arent Ultimate tanks, so i put Defiance and Focus on, which is where i save the most points in total. I prefer this to have a good cheap defense and leave open a lot of possibilities.
Agreed. Hell, I think he's flat out right, this is very legit basic tanking. I kinda wish there was more "and this is also viable" discussion and less "Screw snake, he obviously knows nothing". Of course, then again, this wouldn't be the internet were that the case, huh?
Snake, you make incredibly great points. I guess part of my fanboyism of the invuldodge is that it's what I first started tanking with. I couldn't say it's better than defiance, depending on the situations you plan to encounter. Definitely a bit easier for general stuff, because too many mobs in this game just do fast pings. But it's like arguing if it's better to use a tank or a battle mech. Neither's a bad choice when your enemies are using sling shots, I feel like the only question there is are you willing to risk taking a bit more damage up front, if you're bad at stack maintenance. I'm pretty sure anyone that tries to call defiance less than the best possible choice for bigger bosses or grav is just making stuff up.
One thing that surprises me, tho, is that you're the first defiance tank I've seen that didn't primary con. I like your reasoning behind it, but still. That's an interesting choice, and what first got my attention about this theory.
RIP Caine
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
First off, I made some different choices with powers. My CC move was Backhand Chop, my CC move was One Hundred Hands, and I used Havoc Stomp with the advantage for the debuff. Other than that, it was mostly the same build.
Did two fights against Gravitar, one in hybrid, the other in tank role. Died once in both, but due to my stupidity. I got overconfident in the first run and just didn't block -at all-, which says a lot about first impressions. I was basically taking it like a man from Gravitar's bubbles. In the second one, I missed to block a hold, and was followed up by a yellow orb of doom.
Speaking of yellow orb of doom, it dealt around 4K through my block when I was dead-center in it, which is quite good IMO.
My only current problem is energy management, but I'll swap in MSA and hope that helps a bit.
So yea, if people can afford to use this with their tank characters, I say go for it. It's a demanding, but effective build. Thanks for posting this, Snake.
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I'm a returning player and so much has changed so forgive me if these questions are uncalled for. Is there...maybe a way to make this work with my lev 32 Might-attack using, cavewoman-themed toon? I think I can get around things like COPM as passing it off as some ancient tribal magic-type stuff but I'm not sure how I'll pull off techie-looking fields and dark magic attacks with her being a cavewoman.
What do you think, gang? Is there a way to keep at least good chunk of this guide's effectiveness without having to pick some possibly theme-breaking animations for some of our toons?
Theyre about that yeah, though a little more CON wouldnt harm the build much.
In this kind of build i do suggest keeping the ratio around:
Dex 240
Con 240
Pre 150
Aim for something like that. Make sure your gear includes Dodge/Avoidance and also Cost Discount+. The primary mod can be anything, +Healing% and +Critical Strike/Crit Severity i mostly suggest.
Backhand Chop is a beast of a power, very underrated in my opinion. Luv it
So long as you include:
Challenging Strikes
Crippling Challenge
(optional but advised: self-heal attacks)
(optional: Debuffs)
(optional: Interrupt)
The powers themselves can be anything of your choice, including theme'd selections (whilst keeping FULL effectiveness).
If you like i could make a video of some of these tanks with other bunches of powers to show you.
Remember, without Circle of Primal Dominion, enemies like gravitar will start Knocking you all over the place, you will need Knock Resistance. The extra advantage on Defiance only works when youre low health, so its not really a good choice.
You could always switch your primary SS for STR instead of DEX for knock resistance, but then your heals wont crit, and that would jeopardize your survivability.
I would watch such a video more than once.
Thanks for the help, Snake. I appreciate it.
As for the haters... they're gonna hate I guess.
I am aware that backhnad chop has been mentioned, but am curious if others have been found to be of use.
Cheers.
'Ice Cage' with the extra advantage 'sub-zero cellblock' or somethin like that, is a great interrupt power too.
I personally use ice cage, which stops all her yellow bubbles with good timing.
That would be great, Snake. Thanks in advance for taking the time to do this.
What is the timing? ASAP after she starts it, or is there a lag before it's good to interrupt?
The moment you see the yellow bubble, you activate your interrupt power as fast as you can.
The yellow bubble should dissappear and Gravitar will move onto her next power very fast, which could be another Damage bubble, so heads up!
I'm at 30 and I'm finding that, even though Defiance is primarily a "big threat" passive, rather than a "Hold off groups" passive, I'm able to QUITE effectively hold off relatively large groups of enemies with little to no effort and almost no danger at all.
Thanks for the tutorial on this.
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PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Glacier
Level 6: Enduring
Level 9: Agile
Level 12: Brilliant
Level 15: Acrobat
Level 18: Healthy Mind
Level 21: Coordinated
Powers:
Level 1: Shadow Bolt
Level 1: Shadow Embrace (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 6: Void Shift (Nailed to the Ground)
Level 8: Lifedrain (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Defiance
Level 14: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 17: Dark Transfusion (Rank 2, Blood Sacrifice)
Level 20: Spirit Reverberation
Level 23: Ebon Ruin (Rank 2, Nyctophobia, Paranormal Paranoia)
Level 26: Summon Shadows (Rank 2, Devouring Darkness)
Level 29: Ebon Void (Voracious Darkness)
Level 32: Bountiful Chi Resurgence
Level 35: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Conviction
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Lightning Flash
Level 35: Shadow Wings (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Beacon of Hope (1/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Debilitating Challenge (2/2)
Protector: Exhausting Strikes (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Tenacious (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)
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PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Snake's Ultra-Tank
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Presence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: Divinity
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Shrug It Off
Level 12: Finesse
Level 15: Martial Focus
Level 18: Physical Conditioning
Level 21: Impressive Physique
Powers:
Level 1: Bestial Fury
Level 1: Frenzy (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Howl (Make them Tremble)
Level 11: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Rank 3, Voracious Darkness)
Level 14: Defiance
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 23: Circle of Primal Dominion (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Miniaturization Drive (Rank 2, Reciprocating Gizmo)
Level 29: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 35: Defile (Rank 2)
Level 38: Ebon Ruin
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Acrobatics
Level 35: Millennial Flight
Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (3/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (2/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Exhausting Strikes (2/2)
Protector: Resolute (3/3)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Sentry: Precise (2/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
Sentry: Fortify (2/2)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)
I found an extra point spare, so used it in Howl to add the Make Them Tremble advantage.
The build this thread is about still works really well, but changing it up for your own taste is fine as long as you think about your own survivability.