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STO Interactive Communication VS CO Dev Silence

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  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    1) Dstahl would probably not answer such a question as it doesn't relate to STO (and look at any STO "Ask Cryptic" Thread when they ask for questions. They get a ton of them and pick and chose the ones that get answers.)

    2) Even if he did answer it, I have a feelingt the answer would be: "I'm the Executive Producer for Star Trek Online. I don't really have any info on what the CO EP or his team are doing with regards to CO."

    The person we need info from is CO's Executive Producer (and honestly, I'm not even sure who that is atm as they've gone through quite a few over the life of this MMO. If he can't find time to say something to the CO playerbase; that in itself probably says something about the current state of CO.:frown:

    Scary thought: CO might not even have an executive producer.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Concerning CoX, I think that another major reason why it enjoyed a lot of success is because there was a very fresh market at the time when it was released with people wanting something different from the dominant sword-and-sorcery genre for MMOs. EVE and Anarchy Online are the only other alternatives I can think of. A superhero-themed MMO seemed really unique at the time and I'm sure that was a major pull factor.

    Also as stated, CO was intended to be Marvel Online and the title was first announced in 2006. It was cancelled in early 2008 and development for CO was started instead. Considering that CO was released towards the end of September 2009, that's a little over a year for CO's development (pretty darn rushed thanks to Atari's MMO business policy I'm sure) and to keep in mind that whatever content that was developed for Marvel Online had to be scrapped and new content had to be created for CO. The only thing that Cryptic didn't have to redo much (I'm assuming) was the combat mechanics. That's not to say that the amount of content released at launch was something to write home about either.

    Then there's the problem of poor communication, sub-standard customer support, mismanagement, lack of content expansions with the caliber of Vibora Bay, and the constant feeling that the game is being managed by a skeleton crew, more evident when devs started being moved over to STO...
  • xcaligaxxcaligax Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This game is nothing but a fancy character creator now. Just deal with it until ( rather, IF ), we get a dedicated development team again.
  • amosov78amosov78 Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Scary thought: CO might not even have an executive producer.

    Not sure how up to date it is, but according to this page it does: http://crypticstudios.com/team. Unfortunately, he is also responsible for the Foundry, so the latest we've heard from him has been about Neverwinter here.
  • x0y1x0y1 Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Well I don't think CO will have a chance one way or the other.

    STO makes a lot more money and get a lot more developing time but even in that state compared
    to CO, it still lacks content, ask KDF players or look at the endgame stuff.

    Neverwinter is the new kid on the block and has the newest shiny tools and IMO the most dev time atm. Don't see anything in the future why CO after many years, would finally get more attention. STO will get a major update in may and then the will work on STO foundry and more.

    I really would like to see the foundry (NW version) for CO but I certainly will not pledge money for a kickstarter project.


    From my point, with the 15% bonus zen promo. I spent 44.99Euro for 6042 zen, 5000 zen got transfered to STO to buy the last 3 ship bundle, add another ~1250 for ingame stuff. In the same time CO got 500 zen +125 ingame to buy a luxury penthouse to get access to the shared bank (vanguard/catalyst heirloom items), rest zen saved for Neverwinter......

    Will CO get more $ from me, nah I have zero interest in the vehicles and I don't see Bio Armor/Staff Fighting on the horizon. :tongue:
  • fr0gurtfr0gurt Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    amosov78 wrote: »
    Not sure how up to date it is, but according to this page it does: http://crypticstudios.com/team. Unfortunately, he is also responsible for the Foundry, so the latest we've heard from him has been about Neverwinter here.

    That page is out of date. As noted in the June 2012 State of the Game, Rob Overmeyer is now working with PW publishing, and Brad Stokan is now Executive Producer of Champions Online.
  • fantasycharacterfantasycharacter Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Brad who?:confused:
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Brad who?:confused:

    "Brad Stokan" is a fictional identity created by Cryptic's PR department. They use that name when they need pull-quotes for CO press releases, or to conduct "interviews" that regurgitate those press releases.

    I think.
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • magicelzomagicelzo Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I guess STO simply makes more money, which warrants it to still receive way more updates.
    But STO could soon have the same fate as CO, once Neverwinter is out.

    Who knows?
  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    xcaligax wrote: »
    This game is nothing but a fancy character creator now. Just deal with it until ( rather, IF ), we get a dedicated development team again.

    Okay. I've been looking for a succinct way of expressing my opinion of the game as it stands right now. And you went and hit it on the head.

    Thank you for condensing it into two compact, but very VERY meaningful sentences.
  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    "Brad Stokan" is a fictional identity created by Cryptic's PR department. They use that name when they need pull-quotes for CO press releases, or to conduct "interviews" that regurgitate those press releases.

    I think.

    http://bradstokan.com/Resume.htm

    He's the lead artist, supposedly.

    Translation: Not a game system developer.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    "Brad Stokan" is a fictional identity created by Cryptic's PR department. They use that name when they need pull-quotes for CO press releases, or to conduct "interviews" that regurgitate those press releases.

    I think.

    Looks legit.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,621 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    http://bradstokan.com/Resume.htm

    He's the lead artist, supposedly.

    Translation: Not a game system developer.

    Why is the head of the Champions Online team MIA (simply unreachable for comment on the game)? Is he working fervently on Cryptic's secret project?

    Best case scenario is that its a revamp of Champions Online and not an actual new game. Worse case, no one cares.

    No disrespect to the guy. He just hasn't done anything noticeable for the game since he became head of the CO team. He has made some badass art concept for it, though.
  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Why is the head of the Champions Online team MIA (simply unreachable for comment on the game)? Is he working fervently on Cryptic's secret project?

    Best case scenario is that its a revamp of Champions Online and not an actual new game. Worse case, no one cares.

    No disrespect to the guy. He just hasn't done anything noticeable for the game since he became head of the CO team. He has made some badass art concept for it, though.


    Because he's a graphic arts guy, not a programmer. Not an actual game systems developer. Quite frankly, he isn't qualified to do more than parrot, badly, what an actual programmer or game systems developer would say. And could, quite probably, believe that the game is powered by magic smoke.
  • ramthananaxramthananax Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    And could, quite probably, believe that the game is powered by magic smoke.

    As a game artist, I find this remarkably offensive. Making art for games isn't just drawing with a tablet- it requires a very specialized set of technical skills. A lead artist, even more so.

    For example, on the game I'm working on right now, I can bring the entire game down with just one line on an effect I'm building. It's not magic to me- I know exactly why and how that line is able to do it. When I want a new feature, I have to be able to understand enough of the game engine to explain to my graphics programmer exactly what I want and how he can leverage existing systems to do it for me.

    He may not know the ins-and-outs of the code, but to get to his position, he's got to have technical skills.

    /soapbox
  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Also, the head of a development team is a _manager_. It takes leadership and team skills, not code skills.

    I mean, hell, the Executive Producer could probably be someone with 0 code experience altogether.

    My wife has been a project and program manager, and the skills to organize projects, get information from everyone involved, set metrics for progress, adjust budgets, and so on don't actually require detailed skill in what people are all doing.

    Stokan's resume shows experience in leading teams, which is what an executive producer would need.

    So. Hey.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    As a game artist, I find this remarkably offensive. Making art for games isn't just drawing with a tablet- it requires a very specialized set of technical skills. A lead artist, even more so.

    For example, on the game I'm working on right now, I can bring the entire game down with just one line on an effect I'm building. It's not magic to me- I know exactly why and how that line is able to do it. When I want a new feature, I have to be able to understand enough of the game engine to explain to my graphics programmer exactly what I want and how he can leverage existing systems to do it for me.

    He may not know the ins-and-outs of the code, but to get to his position, he's got to have technical skills.

    /soapbox

    Pretty much,

    Additionally, being a programmer by itself does not in any way imply proper creative*, management or organizational skills, which is what the job of game director entails. All that being a programmer means is that you know how to code.

    *not necessarily in terms of art, but concept development, new ideas for projects, etc.

    EDIT: Ninja'ed on bringing up management :p
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  • towershield#4714 towershield Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I hope this doesn't devolve into another discussion about Brad Stokan's qualifications again. Because that went over sooo well last time and not to mention is completely irrelevant to this thread.
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  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Brad Stokan is a great comic book author name.

    Brad Stokan presents: The adventures of Caliga and his sidekick Smackwell the frog boy wonder as they fight the evil queen Nepht and her army of goofy-face-making cat minions who have broken into the local picture framing plant and are attempting to replace all the pictures with goofy cat gifs!

    bada bada bada bada bada bada boodly boo! skiddly deee skiddly dee, bum bum bum, WACK! BAN! SPORT!

    Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,621 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I hope this doesn't devolve into another discussion about Brad Stokan's qualifications again. Because that went over sooo well last time and not to mention is completely irrelevant to this thread.

    I agree. This thread is about communication from the devs themselves where they become more involved with the players. Brad, being head of the CO team, shouldn't be involved in that.

    But seriously, it kind of is relevant to this thread.
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I hope this doesn't devolve into another discussion about Brad Stokan's qualifications again. Because that went over sooo well last time and not to mention is completely irrelevant to this thread.

    Got me banned already.

    - -

    On a separate note.

    1) Being Executive Producer requires leadership. It is my opinion that Champions Online lacks leadership. It has since launch.

    2) I do not think game artists have the inherent skill-set to understand and manage programming. It's not a diss, but drawing pictures is not the same as implementation. Champion Online has no deficit of good ideas.. it has a deficit of good implementation.

    3) None of us know the reasons for anyone's promotion, demotion, transfer or firing of any of the Champions Online staff. But for the most part we are unhappy with the decisions BECAUSE we are unhappy with the product that these decisions afford us.
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I hope this doesn't devolve into another discussion about Brad Stokan's qualifications again. Because that went over sooo well last time and not to mention is completely irrelevant to this thread.

    I wouldn't say that its "completely" irrelevant, considering that communication with players about the game's continued development is related to the game's direction (or lack of), which kinda makes the game's director relevant to the discussion, especially considering he'd be one of the people in charge of telling us what they have planned for the game, or at least providing that information for an intermediary, like trailturtle.

    Though, the thread desolving into a argument about how qualified the game's director is or not and putting him on the spot will probably not be very constructive and eventually get the thread closed.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    smoochan wrote: »
    Brad Stokan is a great comic book author name.

    Brad Stokan presents: The adventures of Caliga and his sidekick Smackwell the frog boy wonder as they fight the evil queen Nepht and her army of goofy-face-making cat minions who have broken into the local picture framing plant and are attempting to replace all the pictures with goofy cat gifs!

    bada bada bada bada bada bada boodly boo! skiddly deee skiddly dee, bum bum bum, WACK! BAN! SPORT!

    Sidekick to a squatty little guy? Nah... :P
    biffsig.jpg
  • towershield#4714 towershield Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I agree. This thread is about communication from the devs themselves where they become more involved with the players. Brad, being head of the CO team, shouldn't be involved in that.

    But seriously, it kind of is relevant to this thread.

    His qualifications are irrelevant, his communication with the community, or lack thereof, IS relevant.
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  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Gamehobo, on what do you base your judgement about the requirements of management?
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    His qualifications are irrelevant, his communication with the community, or lack thereof, IS relevant.

    Maybe its just my experience in tinsel town, but when has a producer NOT been the mouthpiece for their production.

    Their job is to say yes and no do ideas; to set the agenda; and MOST importantly keep the hype moving in a positive direction.

    This game has always had bad player perception.. and except for his first state of the game (taking over from Bill Roper) there has been nothing but silence from the current producer. This silence has done NOTHING but add to the bad perception.

    This current production would have never been green lit and if it were in production, it would be shut down. If it were me Hollywood they'd sell the option.
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    His qualifications are irrelevant, his communication with the community, or lack thereof, IS relevant.

    Excellent counterargument! :rolleyes:

    If you feel hat discussing Brad's qualifications is not conductive to a constructive discussion just say so. But adamantly declaring that something is not relevant--period--when it is (even if only indirectly), is only going to fuel futher dicussion of the topic.
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  • ruprechtvandoom1ruprechtvandoom1 Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Hey, at least trailturtle is communicating with us and some feedback gets through. I am hopeful in regards to the upcoming alert for instance. We've been through worse I'd say.
  • towershield#4714 towershield Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Excellent counterargument! :rolleyes:

    If you feel hat discussing Brad's qualifications is not conductive to a constructive discussion just say so. But adamantly declaring that something is not relevant--period--when it is (even if only indirectly), is only going to fuel futher dicussion of the topic.

    Yeah no. How does what is written on Stokan's resume have anything to do with a lack of dev/playerbase communication? I have yet to see anyone actually make a compelling argument on that front. The only reason people bring it up at all is to attack it and decree that he's not qualified to be in the position he's in. That's not at all addressing the topic at hand whatsoever and it needs to stop.
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  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    My wife has quite literally been in the position, regularly, of saying 'wait, stop, I don't know anything about coding.'

    Project and program management is vital to coordinating large groups of engineers, of whatever topic and field, and you can be quite useful in doing either without being an engineer TOO.


    Unless you really have good knowledge to the contrary, trust those of us with some insight (first or second hand) that you don't need to be a coder to manage coders.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Yeah no. How does what is written on Stokan's resume have anything to do with a lack of dev/playerbase communication? I have yet to see anyone actually make a compelling argument on that front. The only reason people bring it up at all is to attack it and decree that he's not qualified to be in the position he's in. That's not at all addressing the topic at hand whatsoever and it needs to stop.

    Yet you haven't refuted a single argument to explain exactly why its not "compelling". You've simply declared that the topic is out of the question--because you said so. And you saying so is not a compelling argument to stop. Its merely you asserting your opinions above that of others.

    And its not about what's written on his resume specifically, but rather his position and what that position entails. For there to be any sort of meaningful dialog between the players and the devs there has to be some sort of direction (i.e. the thing that's covered by the game director's job description/role) that determines what exactly the devs have planned for the game's development--where exactly they want to take this game or what they are either willing or able to do. And like it or not there exactly one person within the company or the game's development team that has the authority to determine exactly what that is, and that is the director because that's his job and the entire reason for his position to exist.

    The real question is, how can the game's direction (i.e. Brad's job) POSSIBLY not be related to the lack of dev/player communication? Without the game having some sort of direction there is absolutely NOTHING to communicate or discuss--there are no plans, no vision for the game's future, no inkling about what they can or can't do based on their current plans or what they want to get out of this game.

    Hence, what I said on my very first post in this thread:
    Why is it so much harder for Champions to have any communication?

    Because CO has no vision or direction (and is also not as profitable as STO). So there is nothing for the devs to discuss with us.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,318 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    It's also not the job of the Executive Producer to be the mouthpiece to the players. That's why there's a Community Rep position. Yes, over on STO the Exec Producer likes to talk to the players; that's because of his own personal quirks, not because that's what his job is.

    And I wouldn't expect Brad to know how the programmers do their jobs any more than I'd expect JJ Abrams to have any idea how the lighting techs and camera operators on his shows do their jobs. It's simply unnecessary to hire a programmer for that position, and possibly counterproductive (I've known some pretty unimaginative programmers over the years).

    Edit: Vision, you make a flat statement (the one you quoted from yourself), which claims as fact that which is only supposition. You cannot know that there is "no vision or direction" - it's a supposition you make based on the lack of communication. You then dogmatically use that supposition as if it were demonstrated fact. This is hardly conducive to reasoned discussion.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Edit: Vision, you make a flat statement (the one you quoted from yourself), which claims as fact that which is only supposition. You cannot know that there is "no vision or direction" - it's a supposition you make based on the lack of communication. You then dogmatically use that supposition as if it were demonstrated fact. This is hardly conducive to reasoned discussion.

    You're correct. But its a supposition based on what I have observed about this game's development over the past year or so and the lack of information about this game's direction we've had in more than half a year. Currently we have no clear picture of what they want to do with this game. And what we have gotten in terms of development has been haphazard, like they're shooting in the dark trying to see what sticks. Which is hardly indicative of any sort of direction, but the opposite.

    EDIT: Also, while its technically not the director's job to be the "mouthpiece to the players" it is hardly an uncommon task for game directors in the industry. Others do it regularly as well (such as Joel Bylos from Funcom), and there's no one more qualified to keep us informed about that what they have planned for the game than the person doing the planning themselves.
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  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    zahinder wrote: »
    My wife has quite literally been in the position, regularly, of saying 'wait, stop, I don't know anything about coding.'

    Project and program management is vital to coordinating large groups of engineers, of whatever topic and field, and you can be quite useful in doing either without being an engineer TOO.


    Unless you really have good knowledge to the contrary, trust those of us with some insight (first or second hand) that you don't need to be a coder to manage coders.

    No offense to you, your wife, or any other manager, but here's the thing - just because she's been in that position does not mean she was a) qualified to be there, or b) handled the situation well, even if she was told otherwise by everybody involved. Most people are incredibly stupid and are amazed when you manage to not burn your feet when putting on your shoes, and to steal a quote from House, everybody lies. Just because your superiors think you did an amazing job means nothing; they usually know less about how the everything works than the janitor because they're so far removed or have no practical experience with anything other than bull****ting with other asshats. And just because your subordinates praised every fart you ever dealt means nothing; most subordinates spend their time trying to work despite/around their manager's blindness, but aren't about to risk their jobs telling them they're useless, or disrupt the finely tuned avoidance waltz they've spent years developing to let them function/not go insane.

    I've been to some project management training seminars that were fantastic, and learned all about organizing and motivation and blah blah blah, but the main thing I learned at them is exactly how most managers manage to take ideas and concepts that should work and misunderstand or misapply them thinking that just using a buzzword accomplishes the task. After attending my first seminar I understood exactly what every bonehead idea my previous managers was supposed to accomplish, and exactly how that was never going to happen because they don't know the meaning of the word "is."

    This doesn't mean that you, your wife or any other particular manager is completely incompetent, it just means that just because some have done something it doesn't mean they should have. I've been in several situations where the most productive, most efficient, and most relaxing days were when the manager was out.

    Are there some folks who are fantastic managers despite not having an understanding of what the line is doing? Yes, but most of the time that kind of person is successful not because of the particular skill set they have been taught or certified in, but because of who they are as a person - capable, quick learning, enthusiastic, genuine and most importantly, attentive.

    Anyway, that's my rant, and it's in no way a reflection of anyone in particular, specifically you, your wife, or anyone here, and including but not limited to Brad Stokan.

    Aside from all that, our EP sucks as an EP. Part of an EP's responsibility is working toward success and procuring necessary resources for such success, and both those parts include/require the community. We've received no vision, no communication, no progress, no cohesive voice and no motivation. Maybe that's not his fault, maybe he's doing everything he can to fight his evil masters, and the reasons he sucks as an EP are completely beyond his control. That doesn't change the fact that he still sucks as EP tho. And believe me, I know about being bad at your job, I do it as much as possible every day.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    pion01 wrote: »

    Aside from all that, our EP sucks as an EP. Part of an EP's responsibility is working toward success and procuring necessary resources for such success, and both those parts include/require the community. We've received no vision, no communication, no progress, no cohesive voice and no motivation. Maybe that's not his fault, maybe he's doing everything he can to fight his evil masters, and the reasons he sucks as an EP are completely beyond his control. That doesn't change the fact that he still sucks as EP tho. And believe me, I know about being bad at your job, I do it as much as possible every day.

    If that's so, then perhaps he needs assertiveness training.
  • towershield#4714 towershield Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Yet you haven't refuted a single argument to explain exactly why its not "compelling". You've simply declared that the topic is out of the question--because you said so. And you saying so is not a compelling argument to stop. Its merely you asserting your opinions above that of others.

    And its not about what's written on his resume specifically, but rather his position and what that position entails. For there to be any sort of meaningful dialog between the players and the devs there has to be some sort of direction (i.e. the thing that's covered by the game director's job description/role) that determines what exactly the devs have planned for the game's development--where exactly they want to take this game or what they are either willing or able to do. And like it or not there exactly one person within the company or the game's development team that has the authority to determine exactly what that is, and that is the director because that's his job and the entire reason for his position to exist.

    The real question is, how can the game's direction (i.e. Brad's job) POSSIBLY not be related to the lack of dev/player communication? Without the game having some sort of direction there is absolutely NOTHING to communicate or discuss--there are no plans, no vision for the game's future, no inkling about what they can or can't do based on their current plans or what they want to get out of this game.

    Hence, what I said on my very first post in this thread:
    • "He's an artist, not a developer/programmer" doesn't address the communication issues; not compelling.
    • "If this were a hollywood production..." is not even really an argument, it's a terrible analogy and doesn't address the communication issues; not compelling.
    • "He's the guy in charge, it's his job to communicate with us." In short: it's really not. His job is to oversee development and run things. Trailturtle's job is to communicate with the players and he's doing well with what he's being given.

    We got used to Stokan's predecessors communicating with us so we assumed he'd do it too. Not everyone in charge has an open communication/door policy and being an executive producer he probably has carte blanche on stuff like that. While it's a smart idea and really good PR for the top dogs to address the community from time to time it is by no means "required" like you claim it is.
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  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Well while there's no thread specifically spelling out the job details of what a Producer does (much less an executive producer) in the gaming industry there IS a definition of it as it pertains to Film, Theatre, and other products in the same vein.

    IF there is a huge difference between a show producer and a game producer I can clearly concede that point.

    But the point remains that Champions Online has a HUGE failure when it comes to communication. So even if it is not a game producer's job to create hype and manage budget (as it is in a show), As Head Executive, the Executive Producer still has the responsibility to fix the problem where ever it exists.

    No one would question qualifications of a person performing a job to satisfaction.
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    • "He's an artist, not a developer/programmer" doesn't address the communication issues; not compelling.
    • "If this were a hollywood production..." is not even really an argument, it's a terrible analogy and doesn't address the communication issues; not compelling.
    • "He's the guy in charge, it's his job to communicate with us." In short: it's really not. His job is to oversee development and run things.
    Agreed
    • Trailturtle's job is to communicate with the players and he's doing well with what he's being given.
    And this is not related to the game's vision or direction?

    We got used to Stokan's predecessors communicating with us so we assumed he'd do it too. Not everyone in charge has an open communication/door policy and being an executive producer he probably has carte blanche on stuff like that. While it's a smart idea and really good PR for the top dogs to address the community from time to time it is by no means "required" like you claim it is.

    You're free to quote and mark where I specifically made such a claim.

    I merely claimed that the topic of direction was relevant to dev/player communication for all the reasons I outlined in that post. I didn't, at any point, say that it was the game director's job to communicate with us directly*, only that him exercising his job function was required for the devs to communicate something and us to have something to talk about (hence, it was "relevant" to the topic of communicaton).

    *though, I did mention in another post that it was fairly common in the industry and that the game director (of any game) is probably the most qualified person to tell us exactly what he has planned for the game
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  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    because that's his job and the entire reason for his position to exist.

    The real question is, how can the game's direction (i.e. Brad's job) POSSIBLY not be related to the lack of dev/player communication? Without the game having some sort of direction there is absolutely NOTHING to communicate or discuss--there are no plans, no vision for the game's future, no inkling about what they can or can't do based on their current plans or what they want to get out of this game.

    We are not the one's who get to define the job responsibilities of anyone at Cryptic. For all you and I know Brad is doing exactly as instructed by his superiors. He has been in position for months now. The communication is much as it has been during that entire time. We have seen no indication that he has been fired for failure to perform his job duties. This would seem to indicate that he might not be failing to perform his duties as defined by his employer/superiors.

    You do not know that there are no plans or visions, only that such have not been conveyed to you in a manner that you desire. That is not (necessarily) an indication that they do not exist. Based on what is happening now, and what has been happening for some time, it can be seen that the game DOES have direction...just not necessarily the direction that many/some forumites desire.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    You do not know that there are no plans or visions

    The fact that we don't know is a problem. Know why it's a problem? The sheer number of players who have quit since the change in executive leadership. The lack of content is the real problem.. but with no vision expressed behind it then that is hopelessness.

    Fewer players have joined the game. More players have left the game. Even as a stop-loss measure communication was needed and not given.

    I don't know why people are shifting blame away from the leader.. no matter WHAT is wrong its on their head. That's the price of leadership. Accountability matters.
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    We are not the one's who get to define the job responsibilities of anyone at Cryptic. For all you and I know Brad is doing exactly as instructed by his superiors. He has been in position for months now. The communication is much as it has been during that entire time. We have seen no indication that he has been fired for failure to perform his job duties. This would seem to indicate that he might not be failing to perform his duties as defined by his employer/superiors.

    You do not know that there are no plans or visions, only that such have not been conveyed to you in a manner that you desire. That is not (necessarily) an indication that they do not exist. Based on what is happening now, and what has been happening for some time, it can be seen that the game DOES have direction...just not necessarily the direction that many/some forumites desire.

    Technically, there might be direction in the strictest sense of the word, and it may well be what his superiors have in mind for this game (I don't dismiss the possibility that he may very well be a victim of his higherup as much as we are). It might even be possible that they have plans that I (or none of us for that matter) know nothing about.

    But when I say "direction" I mean following a consistent and coherent path. Not just "direction" as in "anywhere they take you is technically direction, even if it seems to make no sense where you're headed to". All we've been getting are sporadic additions without a clear aim that don't seem to build uppon what is already in game or expand on it in a way that would make the game grow in a consistent manner*. To me, that's that opposite of direction.

    *adding vehicles 3 years in, for example, when the game wasn't built with them in mind and then hoping that making content for now on about them will make a difference when they've never been very consistent about providing content for the things the game actually IS about is unrealistic and lacks vision. We've been crying about the lack of new non-vehicle content for years now. What makes them think they'll provide enough content for them three years in when the game has never been about them?
    ____________________________
  • towershield#4714 towershield Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    gamehobo wrote: »
    The fact that we don't know is a problem. Know why it's a problem? The sheer number of players who have quit since the change in executive leadership. The lack of content is the real problem.. but with no vision expressed behind it then that is hopelessness.

    Fewer players have joined the game. More players have left the game. Even as a stop-loss measure communication was needed and not given.

    I don't know why people are shifting blame away from the leader.. no matter WHAT is wrong its on their head. That's the price of leadership. Accountability matters.

    Because some of us don't subscribe to the idea of lynching someone over something that largely isn't their fault.

    Brad may be in charge of Champions right now but this game had it's fair share of things wrong with it before he took over Rob's old position. Content stagnation arguably started once the new and shiny wore off of Whiteout, which was released MONTHS before Brad took up the reins. Saying he's responsible for this game's long-standing issues is absurd.

    [citation required]
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Brad may be in charge of Champions right now but this game had it's fair share of things wrong with it before he took over Rob's old position. Content stagnation arguably started once the new and shiny wore off of Whiteout, which was released MONTHS before Brad took up the reins. Saying he's responsible for this game's long-standing issues is absurd.

    I actually can agree with this. But I still think that this game suffers from bad direction*, even if it started before Brad, and that its gotten worse. Though, some of that might have been inevitable given the direction the game was already heading before Brad took over.

    I don't necessarily want to "lynch" him from what I say in my posts. I'm just pointing out that I believe that the direction in this game has been bad and that I believe that is part of the reason for the lack of communication (without clear, consistent direction for the game, there is nothing to communicate).

    *technically we have "direction" if we're going by the strictest sense of the word, its just that IMO its "bad" direction
    ____________________________
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Since the change in leadership:

    Non-Customizable Vehicles (when customization of color has been proven)
    PvP queue requirements
    Non-Replayable Content
    Removal of RP zones
    Removal of Costumes
    One State of the Game
    Blaze&Freon never released
    Telepathy Never Released
    Auras Never Released
    LvL 40 versions of lairs Never Released

    All of which players were given information that were going to be implemented differently if at all.

    He gave a clear vision in Jult 2012 and hasn't completed any of it to my satisfaction. But beyond that.. there's been no communication as to why.

    - -

    As for citing game population, I would love to. But since Cryptic recuses to release numbers, and I too am not in the game I can only differ to the peak playtime populations of August 2012 and compare them to heresay from my friends.. but the difference is still clear and staggeringly so. Sure some CoH players came over but still not as much as who has left. If you require a citation I'm sure some players would love to start a log keeping track of in-game population. I know honestresearcher has been using the marketplace as a measurement of player participation .. perhaps he has these numbers as well. I'm not logging in to find out
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    gamehobo wrote: »
    The fact that we don't know is a problem. Know why it's a problem? The sheer number of players who have quit since the change in executive leadership. The lack of content is the real problem.. but with no vision expressed behind it then that is hopelessness.

    Fewer players have joined the game. More players have left the game. Even as a stop-loss measure communication was needed and not given.

    I don't know why people are shifting blame away from the leader.. no matter WHAT is wrong its on their head. That's the price of leadership. Accountability matters.

    He is not accountable to us. He is accountable to his employers.
    But when I say "direction" I mean following a consistent and coherent path.

    The path that has been followed is pretty darned consistent and coherent. I mean, if you look at it, its a pretty recognizable pattern (enough so that people complain about it) even without a guide-book.

    Lock Boxes.

    Alerts.

    Tiny drabs of content that seem to be intended to drive sales of lockbox keys.

    The occasional bug fix.



    Thats it. Its all there. Its not some mystery that Cryptic is hiding from us. Its all out there in the open for everyone to see. The problem is that some people seem to think that there will be more and that Brad is refusing to share it with us. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. The direction is there in all of its depressing glory. Flatline followed (sooner or later) by a downward spiral.

    Some of us have been speaking of CO's potential, largely untapped, for the longest time now. It isnt going to happen. There is not going to be a new golden age for this game. It is on life support and will not be coming off except to eventually die. Brad doesn't need to tell us that this is the direction of the game...it is painfully obvious.

    Brad is like a junior officer of a sinking ship promoted so that the captain(s) who piloted it onto an iceberg can dress up like a civilian and climb into a life boat. He is at the helm of a sinking ship, no possibility of escape, no hope of reprieve, no help coming from the shipping company, the water is up to the portholes, everyone can see the ship sinking, and people are complaining about his lack of vision to bring about a miracle.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    My comments were purely piercing the notion that a producer must necessarily be an experienced coder. That is, I think the whole 'his resume is bad!' is unfounded.


    What matters is the results -- and the results suck. Now, we can argue about who did what. I think it's most plausible that the problem comes from far up the food chain, that CO suffers from very little resources due to lack of prioritization.

    I personally think what resources CO had could have been better used, but, again, it's not clear how much autonomy Cryptic has in such matters. They may have had to beg for what resources they got, and part of that may have a huge impact on what got developed. Vehicles may have been a much easier sell to explain to the masters than other stuff.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

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  • cellarrat33cellarrat33 Posts: 399 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    The path that has been followed is pretty darned consistent and coherent. I mean, if you look at it, its a pretty recognizable pattern (enough so that people complain about it) even without a guide-book.

    Lock Boxes.

    Alerts.

    Tiny drabs of content that seem to be intended to drive sales of lockbox keys.

    The occasional bug fix.



    Thats it. Its all there. Its not some mystery that Cryptic is hiding from us. Its all out there in the open for everyone to see. The problem is that some people seem to think that there will be more and that Brad is refusing to share it with us. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. The direction is there in all of its depressing glory. Flatline followed (sooner or later) by a downward spiral.

    Some of us have been speaking of CO's potential, largely untapped, for the longest time now. It isnt going to happen. There is not going to be a new golden age for this game. It is on life support and will not be coming off except to eventually die. Brad doesn't need to tell us that this is the direction of the game...it is painfully obvious.

    Brad is like a junior officer of a sinking ship promoted so that the captain(s) who piloted it onto an iceberg can dress up like a civilian and climb into a life boat. He is at the helm of a sinking ship, no possibility of escape, no hope of reprieve, no help coming from the shipping company, the water is up to the portholes, everyone can see the ship sinking, and people are complaining about his lack of vision to bring about a miracle.

    QFT. I've always appreciated the your logic and reasoning. You put into a few paragraphs what would take me several posts (and lots of meandering text).

    Basically I'm just happy the game hasn't shut down yet. Hopefully a few more years before they turn out the lights.


    CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared

    ***
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    ***
  • chaoswolf820chaoswolf820 Posts: 734 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Devs... have we been forgotten? Have we been forsaken? Is this game dead? Are you dead?

    Give us, at least, answers if not explanations. It's the silence, the uncertainty, that is most disturbing, not the apparent abandonment.

    We just want to know where everyone is, and why we've all been left alone.
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    They're beyond the wild green yonder.
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  • rexcelestisrexcelestis Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    He is not accountable to us. He is accountable to his employers.

    {snip}
    zahinder wrote: »
    I personally think what resources CO had could have been better used, but, again, it's not clear how much autonomy Cryptic has in such matters. They may have had to beg for what resources they got, and part of that may have a huge impact on what got developed. Vehicles may have been a much easier sell to explain to the masters than other stuff.

    {nods in agreement with Ashen and Zahinder. Well articulated and thoughtful posts. Outside the possibility of inside information or one of us developing telepathy, we really will never know what occurs behind the veil at Cryptic.

    Can someone refresh my memory? I seem to remember a Cryptic sponsored poll where the request for vehicles came in first. Is that correct?
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