However, in PvP - BE COMPETITIVE with the powers given to us by Cryptic!
Now you sound jaded
I think you missed my point, although you only quoted a third of my response... Maybe that is as far as you read?
No I read the whole thing, and the fact stands that this game is about creating characters, not cobbling together robots and then sending them to hack each other to pieces in the arena ( unless of course your character is a robot ). That's the point of the game, top to bottom.
The fact that this doesn't pan out in pvp isn't evidence of the intent behind pvp, it's evidence of the complete disregard of pvp. With enough thought put into it, pvp could support both "character building" and "competitive building" at the same time, in the same build.
The current "reality" of pvp is akin to the current reality of being a crackhead... you might not want to give out **** jobs to get your crack, but eventually you realize you have to because there's no other way to get it.
As far as "why not make a character specifically for pvp?"...well fact is, many of us got into this game because we like the whole "be the hero you want to be" thing. To be told that we have to abandon that to pvp... it's like telling someone "Sure you can join the race... but you have to drive ten miles per hour", in order to participate and have fun, you have to get rid of the very thing that makes it fun.
What's the point? Sure, there's a few of you that can have fun with that, and that's why pvp is currently a small and shrinking game; fact is, you should be catered to, but so should everyone else.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Who are you to say what other players claim is a "theme?" A theme is only limited by the players imagination. The term "frankenbuild," while mildly insulting, insinuates that you lack the imagination.
"Theme builds," as long as they are min/maxed, can perform well in PvP. If you are refusing to maximize the potential of your builds, then that's your bad. Or you could argue this with Cryptic for not catering to your whims. The PvP community has nothing to do with your dissatisfaction. Point the finger elsewhere; direct your crackhead blowjob analogies to Cryptic.
Who are you to say what other players claim is a "theme?" A theme is only limited by the players imagination. The term "frankenbuild," while mildly insulting, insinuates that you lack the imagination.
"Theme builds," as long as they are min/maxed, can perform well in PvP. If you are refusing to maximize the potential of your builds, then that's your bad. Or you could argue this with Cryptic for not catering to your whims. The PvP community has nothing to do with your dissatisfaction. Point the finger elsewhere; direct your crackhead blowjob analogies to Cryptic.
BTW, Malware is a robot. TYVM :biggrin:
In response to this, I refer you to my earlier post on page 4 of this thread... which you apparently didn't read!
The thing about theme is that the player in question who is playing the character has last say on theme. There's always some wonky explanation you can use to explain anything... sure, in the real world no barbarian could learn to create healing drones, but he would also have been dead for about two thousand years and a corpse sitting in the ground doesn't make for much fun (unless you're a certain Egyptian cat goddess). Here in comic book world there have been themes that were published that were crazier and less realistic than a barbarian with a pair of healing drones that have been programmed to follow him around.
Yes, it's cheesy to say "My theme is Cyclops!" and then basically play Cyclops... if he also had Wolverine's regeneration, Night Crawler's teleport, and the ability to sprout glowing angelic wings and fly around.
That being said, saying "Oh, this is just a rp concept build I beat you with" doesn't really mean much if we all know that the person who says it is really just full of it. They don't really need to bother justifying their concept if it's obvious that they're using a very-slightly-modified cookie cutter build, because they're not fooling anyone ( except maybe themselves ).
One thing I think should be agreed upon... the middle of rencen isn't really a good place to be roleplaying anyway.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I make "Concept" and "Theme Builds" all day. Why? Because i could give a flying eff about what the next person does to have fun! Unless, it's friends of mine, that is. It's fun for me to make a toon as close as i can to being "My own hero"! Not the next guy. Which could be the last 100 guys you just saw.
But, if people are OK with being one of many, let them.
Look. Everybody has their reasons for why they play the game. We might not all agree with what other people do to get their CO high...but if it makes you happy, do it!
I have my reasons for staying away from making an AOPM build.
But if others want to make said so-called "Franken builds" they should be able to.
If the Hero you want to be is a "Franken Build" so be it.
And if you can't stand those type of builds, you don't have to engage in their reindeer games.
This whole US (Concept, theme,) vs ( PVP, franken build) them thing just puts a further divide between us all. I admit, i used to HATE people with copy cat builds. Still not a fan, but i realized i wasn't helping anything by calling out certain builds.
In the end i blame Cryptic. But blaming others doesn't help anything either. We have to work with what we have. Putting one another down doesn't help the situation.
Now, lets all hold hands and sing "One love" by Bob Marley. :biggrin:
Look. Everybody has their reasons for why they play the game. We might not all agree with what other people do to get their CO high...but if it makes you happy, do it!
If the Hero you want to be is a "Franken Build" so be it.
And if you can't stand those type of builds, you don't have to engage in their reindeer games.
QFT, finally someone who does not impose their own ideas of play onto others.
Don't like to PvE with so and so using such and such build? Form your own team to run missions or alerts.
Don't like to PvP against so and so using such and such build? Don't accept their duel challenge, don't challenge them and leave the HG queue if you see them.
Why do you have to leave and not the other person? Because the other person is not the one with issues.
[...]PvP against so and so using such and such build? Don't accept their duel challenge, don't challenge them and leave the HG queue if you see them.
[...]
You can see how this amounts to "Frankenbuild or gtfo", can't you? The other alternative being "Welcome to the Frankengames, please bare your rear."
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
You can see how this amounts to "Frankenbuild or gtfo", can't you? The other alternative being "Welcome to the Frankengames, please bare your rear."
Can't you see how equally ridiculous it is to throw a hissy fit over what other players choose to do with their freeform accounts? Go frankenf^ck yourself, a$$hole. (seriously) The Natzi's lost. Quit dictating how others should play (to make you happy.)
Can't you see how equally ridiculous it is to throw a hissy fit over what other players choose to do with their freeform accounts? Go frankenf^ck yourself, a$$hole. (seriously) The Natzi's lost. Quit dictating how others should play (to make you happy.)
As much as I hate to agree, I must say he is right (not about going and effing yourself lol). Everyone is entitled to their own ideas and opinions on how they create their toon that thay are paying for. If someone wants to make a boring as hell force detonation, ER spam just to win or if they wish to make an AOPM melee that does no dmg but is fun to play, or even an unkillable tank that is based on device spam, that is their prerogative. As long as the said player is having fun playing whatever build they like, that's all that matters. The powers are there for everyone to use, the fact that you don't want to build that way, doesn't mean that build is bad or stupid or whatever.
This whole "frankenbuild" term irritates me because if you think about it, EVERYONE is some kind of copy of another person in this game, even in PvE (and I don't care what you say, you can say you aren't a copy all you want). VERY FEW people have created their own unique build that no one else has. The brutal truth is if you have a "good" build that others see you doing well with (pvp or pve) then it's very likely that they will think "oh look at that guy, he just 1 shotted him in 5 seconds OH EM GEE I WANT IT!" or "OH EM GEE he just soloed grav when everyone else died and took no dmg...I WANT IT!".
Instead of arguing about this whole "frankenbuild" nonsense, people need to be more open-minded and accept others for their character, not their build. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion about the person's build, but that is all it is, AN OPINION, NOT a RULE in how they MUST build. No need to flame them about it, just do as Wesley said and don't duel them. Simple.
Can't you see how equally ridiculous it is to throw a hissy fit over what other players choose to do with their freeform accounts? Go frankenf^ck yourself, a$$hole. (seriously) The Natzi's lost. Quit dictating how others should play (to make you happy.)
The problem is, folks think the conversation is about what players should do or what they should be allowed to do, or whether it's right for them to be doing what they're doing.
Once you pull yourself and your desire to win out of the equation, you get to the real conversation, which has more to do with the state of the game, rather than the state of your win/loss record.
Frankenbuilds killed pvp; not the choice of players to use them, but the availability of players choosing to use them. You like pvp don't you? Why are you so approving of its death, as evidenced by your support of players having frankenbuilds available to them?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The problem is, folks think the conversation is about what players should do or what they should be allowed to do, or whether it's right for them to be doing what they're doing.
Once you pull yourself and your desire to win out of the equation, you get to the real conversation, which has more to do with the state of the game, rather than the state of your win/loss record.
Frankenbuilds killed pvp; not the choice of players to use them, but the availability of players choosing to use them. You like pvp don't you? Why are you so approving of its death, as evidenced by your support of players having frankenbuilds available to them?
^^This was kind of my point. Kind of. PVP is what it is now, because people don't want to be one shot and cast aside like nothing. In order for that to happen, they have to keep up.
Using a certain formula that the "next guy" is using allows many to compete on the same lvl.
Now, that's all fine and dandy for some who really just want to be a part of that set.
For others, more laid back or pve/pvp mild folk. And there are a lot of them. This makes no sense. Why build a toon that isn't what "you" want only to compete in a small community of people who fight one another in a dead or dying thing called Hero Games?
That's where the hate comes in. The ones that can't understand it, go over to the other side and get destroyed!! Cry out and call foul!. The other side, imho. Looks down on and farms these types of players with reckless abandon, causing more of a riff between sides.
(Not all hardcore pvpers do this)
Fighting against one another will not help anything. Only Cryptic can solve this problem.
Either they revamp Hero games and power balance issues. Or... IMHO get rid of the games all together and focus on everything else.
Listen. People are going to make Ebon ruin, geyser, cascade, and AOPM builds. No matter how old and tired it may seem to some, it's part of the game. Cryptic put those powers out there. Even if i never make a build like that, others have a right to do so.
Suck it up people. This is what we have to work with. Get along and thrive or fight and die.
actually, it wasn't the franken-building that killed pvp, it was some of the overpowered options franken-builders have, as well as the powers that would be good if they weren't so out of whack. xD
There are two powers that are really killed pvp. I'll let you figure out which. The rest are either just overpowered or underpowered. xD I'll let you figure out how.
[headdesk] The debate keeps going in circles. What is this balanced PvP that some are asking for? Will these people be happy if the devs just puts 1 set of 14 powers that everyone has to use for PvP? Maybe a set of 5 fixed devices and a set of primary and secondary gear. Everyone use the same PSS and SSS, everyone use the same Spec trees and skills. Everyone gets the same thing, hooray all fair and balanced.
People just refuse to see that it is impossible to balance an open freeform system.
Please show me a point in CO history when there was REAL balance in PvP.
Hell for that matter, even an energy builder fight at level 6 will be imba. Range vs Melee plus kiting. GG Melee.
[headdesk] The debate keeps going in circles. What is this balanced PvP that some are asking for? Will these people be happy if the devs just puts 1 set of 14 powers that everyone has to use for PvP? Maybe a set of 5 fixed devices and a set of primary and secondary gear. Everyone use the same PSS and SSS, everyone use the same Spec trees and skills. Everyone gets the same thing, hooray all fair and balanced.
People just refuse to see that it is impossible to balance an open freeform system.
Please show me a point in CO history when there was REAL balance in PvP.
Hell for that matter, even an energy builder fight at level 6 will be imba. Range vs Melee plus kiting. GG Melee.
I would be happy even if CO took notes from GW2's sPvP. Anyone who joins it is automatically the same level, same gears... The only choice in the matter is what class people are playing. Even then their powers are maxed and all attacks/utilities are available to them.
I would be happy even if CO took notes from GW2's sPvP. Anyone who joins it is automatically the same level, same gears... The only choice in the matter is what class people are playing. Even then their powers are maxed and all attacks/utilities are available to them.
That will help narrow the gap but even then it is part of the bigger issue only I am afraid. As I pointed out with the earlier extreme example, there is nothing to prevent a freefrom from super gimping himself/herself in power choices. Does that mean everyone else has to be equally gimped so that the fight is balanced? Does everyone then have to have the same set of powers as the gimped toon?
Riding on your post but not addressing you Mal,
Just as one person can build a frankenform ,someone else can also equally build a failedform. Just as much as someone can enjoy playing his/her concept failedform, another can enjoy winning pvp with his/her frankenform. Should the failedform then come and complain that the other person's frankenform is OP and imbalance and should be nerfed to be on the same level as the failedform?
I have to say, I really despise the whole "frankencopybuild" type terminology. Why? Because that just isn't the case. In BASH I see all sorts of powers and passives being used with success. So, the derogatory generalization fails from the start, and yet the term still persists. Basically, anyone who can win no matter what powers/passives they use will get labeled as a "frankencopybuild" just for the simple fact that they know how to PvP. In the end, being a good PvPer just boils down to knowledge of synergies and general know-how regarding tactics, when to flee, etc.
But to get back on topic, and to your comment, I suppose people can choose to make "failbuilds" vs "frankencopybuilds" but the only difference between the two is knowing how to maximize a build or not. I think the problem and complaints with freeform PvP would be minimal if people just knew what the hell they were doing. Making a successful build is so easy, and it comes in many forms. I don't think CO PvP is a failed gamemode. I think players fail to learn how to use powers that work well together. Synergy is key! Not having too many attacks as well as enough actives to rotate is key! Spending points on appropriate advantages and obviously having heals is key! It's not that AoPM is the only passive capable in PvP. There are also defensive passives that work well (Defiance, Invulnerability as you know), Quarry, etc.
Sure, ranged has the advantage of being ranged. Melee has a 10ft limitation. It can still work, but people don't build to make it as effective vs a ranged player (i.e. using holds, roots.. Ice Cage w/Interrupt advantage is still a great way to hold someone still.) Most of the people complaining on this thread are people who don't even PvP, or haven't in years (that's you Smoochan) and why their input is so valuable is beyond me. But I digress...
I'm not trying to put anyone down, but I think perspective should be taken into consideration. Not outdated perception, mind you. That's irrelevant considering the changes made to CO over recent history (On Alert.)
LOL I merely borrow the term frankenbuild so that there is a common vocab for the sake of the discussion. You are right Mal that there are so many things involved and so much knowledge to building a toon (I am not even sure I have scratched enough of the surface myself) in CO. The synergy which you spoke about and how to pick powers are all important. However, there are those who have pick powers without leaving out such considerations because either they had no clues (like when I first started) or they feel that it is not in theme (which still happens for me once a while). However, it is beyond me why such people feel the need to impose their benchmark upon others.
"Imposing their benchmark" seems to be the overriding concept to this discussion by large, and is in many ways the downfall of why people hate PvP in CO. But fret not friend, I do think you know a lot more about synergies and making a good build than you just let on...
A good PvP build knows how to maximize their defense and offense as well as keep healed; how to make their one attack hit as hard as possible, and how to keep their opponent from fleeing/how to keep their opponent from healing as fast. That's about it. That's why you see a lot of Ebon Ruin out there, because it's the perfect PvP attack. It's the most devastating blow from the Darkness line of powers, it's 100ft ranged; in addition, it debuffs healing. That's as good as it gets, and is a natural key to winning in PvP. Mind you, with enough heals the debuff won't matter much. Pestilence is another great passive, combined with Defile, it hits hard as f*ck and debuffs healing all the same. MrForz has a wicked Shadowform build that has beaten me numerous times as well. PvP isn't limited to just AoPM and I think that's what everyone is stumbling on in this conversation. The reality is that many powers and passives can work well, but some are more popular due to their versatility than others. And due to the introduction of better perception gear, it's harder to pull off a good Shadowform build. But it can still work well. There's also Seraphim, which I've used to much success on an alt Malware build (Malware 2.0 or 3.0.)
In the end you can't convince people once they are dead-set on being anti-PvP, not to mention old grudges they may hold over the game mode. It's counter-productive for them to keep slandering with misinformation, though, and it's saddening the lengths they go to in order to keep PvP as unpopular as it is with such misinformation. Again, I digress... :rolleyes:
Hi. I'm GFN, and I'm a PvPer. While relatively new in terms of the veterans out there (Only been doing it since the summer) I've seen and learned enough to know most, if not all, the tricks. Now what I'm going to talk about is things that everyone's seen over the years.. but dammit are they still annoying as hell and just can't seem to ever stop. Please note, I'm not going to mention powers... those are all at the whim of the user and they are ALL counterable and beatable. What I'm mentioning are things that are but annoyance factors or somewhat unfair/overadvantageous.
I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Are you complaining about people's attitudes or other things about the game like powers/devices?
Travel Powers:
Oh. My. GOD.
Nothing pisses me off more than beating a man to near death before he decides to prolong his eventual demise by popping a teleport or tunneling/Ooze power. And sadly, the ones who do this are the easiest to beat.. so you'll be seeing that little dance over and over until either you actually kill them or they do it to you.
I enjoy teleporters. They become so squishy when they teleport. Then again, I do have old perception 2ndaries to help me spot them. I've noticed those have become rarer and rarer by the way, so the casual player might not have access to them. You know that you can still hit them with untargetted AoEs like your NPG right? Especially if you fire it off right next to where they just disappeared from.
Devices:
Even more annoying than Travel Powers... when someone decides to use something that could potentially mean a win for them.. and it's not a power. Ice Grenades, Heroic Resonance, Neutralization Grenades, anything of the sort.. just.. wow. Now I will not lie, I use them as well... though it's "If you use one, then I shall as well" deal. Freeforms, it's harder to detect device usage.. but ATs? You can know.
I have Heroic Resonance, but it's mostly as a costume item. I've gotten a LOT of comments and compliments on the aura it produces. I won't use devices against people who I know don't use them and don't want me using them. Another thing to consider though is... It's PvP. It'll ALWAYS be "do unto others before they do unto you".
Griefers:
...this needs no explaination
Again, are you complaining about people's attitudes or things about the game such as powers/devices? I'm a little dim so you'll probably have to explain it to me I'm afraid.
Certain.. players:
I will not name any names.. But there's just those ones that use cookiecutter builds and the ones who are RPPvP, then will throw in game changing abilities, then claim it's "Concept"... Allow me to ask you this: Since when was a power armor soldier able to have a magical aura? Since when did ninjas learn mind control? Since when did a brutish fighter learn to heal themselves using machines?
Again, no names.. but there's even an SG that caters to these people... and they've also taken to claiming to being the best around (Hurrdurr)
I think everyone else just covered this so I won't even bother getting into it. I make/play theme builds so you'll probably have to throw me in with the RPPvP folks.
Another thing I just don't understand is the elitist type of PvPers. The ones who will do everything to show that they are your superior and will complain at every instance if you manage to best them. They'll do anything to show their power, even challenging purely PvE builds.. then cry when they can't do any damage because the opponent does what they do in PvE.. pops down Ebon Sigils and then debuffs the hell outta them.
? A properly played "pure PvP build" will usually beat the snot out of an AT. If these "elitist type of PvPers" are so annoying... Why not just put them on /ignore? Poor loosers/winners make it to my /ignore list. It keeps my life simpler and less stress filled. Because.. I totally play this game to get more stress. :biggrin:
And the ones who complain knock-outs aren't a win... seriously? In my book, it is. A victory constitutes you had bested them in some aspect.. the people who knocked you out obviously bested you by exploiting the low knock resistance you have. Get over it.
I'm sorry, but I'm confused again. You state that victory means beating them in some aspect? So if they use devices/powers better than you do, does that mean it's all good and that you should "Get over it"? Also, I'm guessing your character has a high amount of Str right? So you should have loads and loads of KnockResistance right? So if someone with "low knock resistance" were to knock you out of the ring... You wouldn't get upset then? Mind you, I'm not saying Ring-Outs aren't valid ways to win. If that's your thing, then that's your thing. All I'm saying is that some people don't consider it a real win. Also, it's not difficult at all to make a scrawny low knock resistance build that can knock your high Str build out of the ring EVERY single time. I can think of one way right now and it's not very complicated at all. I'm sure almost everyone else here can think of it as well.
It's PvP. "Do unto others before they do unto you". The only restrictions are those you place upon yourself. Honor, restraint, charity, fair play are ALL VERY VERY relative/subjective terms. We should try not to "look down our noses" at anyone's build/playstyle. The only exception to this I would make are for poor loosers/winners. There's no valid reason to put someone down after you just facerolled them in under 5 seconds. If you don't have anything nice to say, just keep quiet.
"If you're going to ride my ****... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Funny stuff. I see once again people being looked down on because they don't fit into certain peoples boxes.
That's the very problem PVP presents to those who wish to play it (Newb) or a person looking to go back to it. (Vet since beta) If you don't play hero games most of the time you can't speak out on the very same game we "ALL" play? If you don't PvP, you don't know how to build or know synergy between powers and sets?
You automatically must be inferior to a hardcore pvper because you choose not to be part of those games more often then not?
I will say this, dueling against some of these so called-pvp builds isn't that difficult if you know what you're doing. So, yes there are builds that can compete with said builds.
THAT"S NOT THE POINT!!
People don't want to be around the EGO games and fights that have nothing to do with the game itself! Look at these forums. It's a damn shame.
I just want us all to get along, so we can focus on making this a better place for all of us.
I can only imagine what a dev or devs would think looking in this section." Help these people?" Yeah , right! They are too busy fighting one another.
Even if you don't pvp, you play this game. You most likely know someone who does.
Or even have or do now. Nobody is irrelevant. If that's how some think, we will never get more people playing hero games or getting along period!
Monday, i tried to get a few friends to que for hero games (Bash) they said "Why the fck would we do that"? "Nothing but jerks there")Sigh...So i came to the forums to see what was going on in this section, maybe get a few tips for bringing in some pretty cool and different builds.
But the attitude i see around here by some has not changed. It's not very welcoming.
I told my friends to come read for yourself or jump into hero games and get a taste.
No more peace treaty from me. They gotta figure it out for themselves.
[...]
In the end you can't convince people once they are dead-set on being anti-PvP, not to mention old grudges they may hold over the game mode. It's counter-productive for them to keep slandering with misinformation, though, and it's saddening the lengths they go to in order to keep PvP as unpopular as it is with such misinformation. Again, I digress... :rolleyes:
I think it's unrealistic to say that the main thing that's making pvp unpopular isn't what happens when people participate while not using established "best" setups. What people say about pvp is a secondary cause at best.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I think it's unrealistic to say that the main thing that's making pvp unpopular isn't what happens when people participate while not using established "best" setups. What people say about pvp is a secondary cause at best.
Considering the amount of times people see others saying (in General Forums, not even considering the crap in Zone chat) "PvP is BROKEN Don't bother with Hero Games"... I think that sort of jargon has a lot of influence on the masses who have never PvP'd or are not yet level 40 and are bored with current PvE content.
Considering the amount of times people see others saying (in General Forums, not even considering the crap in Zone chat) "PvP is BROKEN Don't bother with Hero Games"... I think that sort of jargon has a lot of influence on the masses who have never PvP'd or are not yet level 40 and are bored with current PvE content.
It might help if everything they heard wasn't immediately confirmed upon entering. It isn't really common in online games that the first time you enter pvp, you find yourself unable to even damage anyone, much less kill them, despite being the same level as everyone else and having the same level of gear. Then they spend a bunch of time getting farmed by groups of people, and then they find out that there's this whole thing about farming devices (but not through pvp)...and then some weird girl runs up, hits them once, and bounces away and somehow wins by doing that.
To then be told that the problem is the build they had so much fun making, in this game where customization is the one and only real bullet point, and if they want to participate in this part of the game they have to rebuild, and follow certain rules while doing so, in large part giving up the majority of the customization, or basically make no progress is going to strike a lot of people as draining the bath water so you can sit in the bath tub more effectively.
It's just too big of a deviation from the core of the game. It makes you start to wonder why you're choosing to pvp in CO, when you can't really play CO while pvping in CO... I mean, you could be a pile of numbers in some other game with an active pvp community that's actually seeing some development.
What's the counterargument to all this? What do you really get in exchange for what you give up to make "progress" in pvp?
Hell, it's true, people spend a lot of time saying bad stuff about pvp here... ever wonder why you rarely see anyone saying anything good about it?
Finish this senteance: Champions Online has better pvp than any other online game because ______
and no, "because I'm winning." is not a good answer.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
People always walk in on the middle of an argument and assume they know everything. I'm not a jerk, I just don't like certain people who were jerks to me. I know who they are. I don't like when people say things like I always put down other players, because this isn't true at all.
Everyone matters, and just because some of us don't play the way they do doesn't mean we can't be good, or that our perspective of the game is inferior to theirs, and it doesn't mean they can't improve theirs from ours. :P
I can see now why some pvp players think they're superior though. In pvp, we rely on a more fundamental skill set than the people who become lazy killing stationary NPCs.... blah blah blah I won't bore anyone with the explanation. On the other hand, most PvP players don't learn how to become good with the things that are used in PvE, they just assume it doesn't work. That's part of the reason why I'll never build cookie-cutters.
In general I really loathe the way most people see this game, in PvE and PvP, especially the opinionated builders.... but I'll leave that alone...
Everything in life is subjective though I think. There's no such thing as an objective point of view. Just my opinion of course and you know what they say about opinions. :biggrin: They're like butt-holes. Everyone has one and they all stink. :biggrin:
"If you're going to ride my ****... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Comments
No I read the whole thing, and the fact stands that this game is about creating characters, not cobbling together robots and then sending them to hack each other to pieces in the arena ( unless of course your character is a robot ). That's the point of the game, top to bottom.
The fact that this doesn't pan out in pvp isn't evidence of the intent behind pvp, it's evidence of the complete disregard of pvp. With enough thought put into it, pvp could support both "character building" and "competitive building" at the same time, in the same build.
The current "reality" of pvp is akin to the current reality of being a crackhead... you might not want to give out **** jobs to get your crack, but eventually you realize you have to because there's no other way to get it.
As far as "why not make a character specifically for pvp?"...well fact is, many of us got into this game because we like the whole "be the hero you want to be" thing. To be told that we have to abandon that to pvp... it's like telling someone "Sure you can join the race... but you have to drive ten miles per hour", in order to participate and have fun, you have to get rid of the very thing that makes it fun.
What's the point? Sure, there's a few of you that can have fun with that, and that's why pvp is currently a small and shrinking game; fact is, you should be catered to, but so should everyone else.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Who are you to say what other players claim is a "theme?" A theme is only limited by the players imagination. The term "frankenbuild," while mildly insulting, insinuates that you lack the imagination.
"Theme builds," as long as they are min/maxed, can perform well in PvP. If you are refusing to maximize the potential of your builds, then that's your bad. Or you could argue this with Cryptic for not catering to your whims. The PvP community has nothing to do with your dissatisfaction. Point the finger elsewhere; direct your crackhead blowjob analogies to Cryptic.
BTW, Malware is a robot. TYVM :biggrin:
In response to this, I refer you to my earlier post on page 4 of this thread... which you apparently didn't read!
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
But, if people are OK with being one of many, let them.
Look. Everybody has their reasons for why they play the game. We might not all agree with what other people do to get their CO high...but if it makes you happy, do it!
I have my reasons for staying away from making an AOPM build.
But if others want to make said so-called "Franken builds" they should be able to.
If the Hero you want to be is a "Franken Build" so be it.
And if you can't stand those type of builds, you don't have to engage in their reindeer games.
This whole US (Concept, theme,) vs ( PVP, franken build) them thing just puts a further divide between us all. I admit, i used to HATE people with copy cat builds. Still not a fan, but i realized i wasn't helping anything by calling out certain builds.
In the end i blame Cryptic. But blaming others doesn't help anything either. We have to work with what we have. Putting one another down doesn't help the situation.
Now, lets all hold hands and sing "One love" by Bob Marley. :biggrin:
QFT, finally someone who does not impose their own ideas of play onto others.
Don't like to PvE with so and so using such and such build? Form your own team to run missions or alerts.
Don't like to PvP against so and so using such and such build? Don't accept their duel challenge, don't challenge them and leave the HG queue if you see them.
Why do you have to leave and not the other person? Because the other person is not the one with issues.
You can see how this amounts to "Frankenbuild or gtfo", can't you? The other alternative being "Welcome to the Frankengames, please bare your rear."
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Can't you see how equally ridiculous it is to throw a hissy fit over what other players choose to do with their freeform accounts? Go frankenf^ck yourself, a$$hole.
Make an AT toon for PvP. Play AT PvP. Enjoy your conceptual toon PvP there.
As much as I hate to agree, I must say he is right (not about going and effing yourself lol). Everyone is entitled to their own ideas and opinions on how they create their toon that thay are paying for. If someone wants to make a boring as hell force detonation, ER spam just to win or if they wish to make an AOPM melee that does no dmg but is fun to play, or even an unkillable tank that is based on device spam, that is their prerogative. As long as the said player is having fun playing whatever build they like, that's all that matters. The powers are there for everyone to use, the fact that you don't want to build that way, doesn't mean that build is bad or stupid or whatever.
This whole "frankenbuild" term irritates me because if you think about it, EVERYONE is some kind of copy of another person in this game, even in PvE (and I don't care what you say, you can say you aren't a copy all you want). VERY FEW people have created their own unique build that no one else has. The brutal truth is if you have a "good" build that others see you doing well with (pvp or pve) then it's very likely that they will think "oh look at that guy, he just 1 shotted him in 5 seconds OH EM GEE I WANT IT!" or "OH EM GEE he just soloed grav when everyone else died and took no dmg...I WANT IT!".
Instead of arguing about this whole "frankenbuild" nonsense, people need to be more open-minded and accept others for their character, not their build. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion about the person's build, but that is all it is, AN OPINION, NOT a RULE in how they MUST build. No need to flame them about it, just do as Wesley said and don't duel them. Simple.
The problem is, folks think the conversation is about what players should do or what they should be allowed to do, or whether it's right for them to be doing what they're doing.
Once you pull yourself and your desire to win out of the equation, you get to the real conversation, which has more to do with the state of the game, rather than the state of your win/loss record.
Frankenbuilds killed pvp; not the choice of players to use them, but the availability of players choosing to use them. You like pvp don't you? Why are you so approving of its death, as evidenced by your support of players having frankenbuilds available to them?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Using a certain formula that the "next guy" is using allows many to compete on the same lvl.
Now, that's all fine and dandy for some who really just want to be a part of that set.
For others, more laid back or pve/pvp mild folk. And there are a lot of them. This makes no sense. Why build a toon that isn't what "you" want only to compete in a small community of people who fight one another in a dead or dying thing called Hero Games?
That's where the hate comes in. The ones that can't understand it, go over to the other side and get destroyed!! Cry out and call foul!. The other side, imho. Looks down on and farms these types of players with reckless abandon, causing more of a riff between sides.
(Not all hardcore pvpers do this)
Fighting against one another will not help anything. Only Cryptic can solve this problem.
Either they revamp Hero games and power balance issues. Or... IMHO get rid of the games all together and focus on everything else.
Listen. People are going to make Ebon ruin, geyser, cascade, and AOPM builds. No matter how old and tired it may seem to some, it's part of the game. Cryptic put those powers out there. Even if i never make a build like that, others have a right to do so.
Suck it up people. This is what we have to work with. Get along and thrive or fight and die.
http://www.amazon.com/Ninja-Mind-Control-Ashida-Kim/dp/B008SMBYEI
</trollface>
RIP Caine
There are two powers that are really killed pvp. I'll let you figure out which. The rest are either just overpowered or underpowered. xD I'll let you figure out how.
People just refuse to see that it is impossible to balance an open freeform system.
Please show me a point in CO history when there was REAL balance in PvP.
Hell for that matter, even an energy builder fight at level 6 will be imba. Range vs Melee plus kiting. GG Melee.
I would be happy even if CO took notes from GW2's sPvP. Anyone who joins it is automatically the same level, same gears... The only choice in the matter is what class people are playing. Even then their powers are maxed and all attacks/utilities are available to them.
That will help narrow the gap but even then it is part of the bigger issue only I am afraid. As I pointed out with the earlier extreme example, there is nothing to prevent a freefrom from super gimping himself/herself in power choices. Does that mean everyone else has to be equally gimped so that the fight is balanced? Does everyone then have to have the same set of powers as the gimped toon?
Riding on your post but not addressing you Mal,
Just as one person can build a frankenform ,someone else can also equally build a failedform. Just as much as someone can enjoy playing his/her concept failedform, another can enjoy winning pvp with his/her frankenform. Should the failedform then come and complain that the other person's frankenform is OP and imbalance and should be nerfed to be on the same level as the failedform?
But to get back on topic, and to your comment, I suppose people can choose to make "failbuilds" vs "frankencopybuilds" but the only difference between the two is knowing how to maximize a build or not. I think the problem and complaints with freeform PvP would be minimal if people just knew what the hell they were doing. Making a successful build is so easy, and it comes in many forms. I don't think CO PvP is a failed gamemode. I think players fail to learn how to use powers that work well together. Synergy is key! Not having too many attacks as well as enough actives to rotate is key! Spending points on appropriate advantages and obviously having heals is key! It's not that AoPM is the only passive capable in PvP. There are also defensive passives that work well (Defiance, Invulnerability as you know), Quarry, etc.
Sure, ranged has the advantage of being ranged. Melee has a 10ft limitation. It can still work, but people don't build to make it as effective vs a ranged player (i.e. using holds, roots.. Ice Cage w/Interrupt advantage is still a great way to hold someone still.) Most of the people complaining on this thread are people who don't even PvP, or haven't in years (that's you Smoochan) and why their input is so valuable is beyond me. But I digress...
I'm not trying to put anyone down, but I think perspective should be taken into consideration. Not outdated perception, mind you. That's irrelevant considering the changes made to CO over recent history (On Alert.)
A good PvP build knows how to maximize their defense and offense as well as keep healed; how to make their one attack hit as hard as possible, and how to keep their opponent from fleeing/how to keep their opponent from healing as fast. That's about it. That's why you see a lot of Ebon Ruin out there, because it's the perfect PvP attack. It's the most devastating blow from the Darkness line of powers, it's 100ft ranged; in addition, it debuffs healing. That's as good as it gets, and is a natural key to winning in PvP. Mind you, with enough heals the debuff won't matter much. Pestilence is another great passive, combined with Defile, it hits hard as f*ck and debuffs healing all the same. MrForz has a wicked Shadowform build that has beaten me numerous times as well. PvP isn't limited to just AoPM and I think that's what everyone is stumbling on in this conversation. The reality is that many powers and passives can work well, but some are more popular due to their versatility than others. And due to the introduction of better perception gear, it's harder to pull off a good Shadowform build. But it can still work well. There's also Seraphim, which I've used to much success on an alt Malware build (Malware 2.0 or 3.0.)
In the end you can't convince people once they are dead-set on being anti-PvP, not to mention old grudges they may hold over the game mode. It's counter-productive for them to keep slandering with misinformation, though, and it's saddening the lengths they go to in order to keep PvP as unpopular as it is with such misinformation. Again, I digress... :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Are you complaining about people's attitudes or other things about the game like powers/devices?
Travel Powers:
Oh. My. GOD.
Nothing pisses me off more than beating a man to near death before he decides to prolong his eventual demise by popping a teleport or tunneling/Ooze power. And sadly, the ones who do this are the easiest to beat.. so you'll be seeing that little dance over and over until either you actually kill them or they do it to you.
I enjoy teleporters. They become so squishy when they teleport. Then again, I do have old perception 2ndaries to help me spot them. I've noticed those have become rarer and rarer by the way, so the casual player might not have access to them.
Devices:
Even more annoying than Travel Powers... when someone decides to use something that could potentially mean a win for them.. and it's not a power. Ice Grenades, Heroic Resonance, Neutralization Grenades, anything of the sort.. just.. wow. Now I will not lie, I use them as well... though it's "If you use one, then I shall as well" deal. Freeforms, it's harder to detect device usage.. but ATs? You can know.
I have Heroic Resonance, but it's mostly as a costume item. I've gotten a LOT of comments and compliments on the aura it produces. I won't use devices against people who I know don't use them and don't want me using them. Another thing to consider though is... It's PvP. It'll ALWAYS be "do unto others before they do unto you".
Griefers:
...this needs no explaination
Again, are you complaining about people's attitudes or things about the game such as powers/devices? I'm a little dim so you'll probably have to explain it to me I'm afraid.
Certain.. players:
I will not name any names.. But there's just those ones that use cookiecutter builds and the ones who are RPPvP, then will throw in game changing abilities, then claim it's "Concept"... Allow me to ask you this: Since when was a power armor soldier able to have a magical aura? Since when did ninjas learn mind control? Since when did a brutish fighter learn to heal themselves using machines?
Again, no names.. but there's even an SG that caters to these people... and they've also taken to claiming to being the best around (Hurrdurr)
I think everyone else just covered this so I won't even bother getting into it. I make/play theme builds so you'll probably have to throw me in with the RPPvP folks.
Another thing I just don't understand is the elitist type of PvPers. The ones who will do everything to show that they are your superior and will complain at every instance if you manage to best them. They'll do anything to show their power, even challenging purely PvE builds.. then cry when they can't do any damage because the opponent does what they do in PvE.. pops down Ebon Sigils and then debuffs the hell outta them.
? A properly played "pure PvP build" will usually beat the snot out of an AT. If these "elitist type of PvPers" are so annoying... Why not just put them on /ignore? Poor loosers/winners make it to my /ignore list. It keeps my life simpler and less stress filled. Because.. I totally play this game to get more stress. :biggrin:
And the ones who complain knock-outs aren't a win... seriously? In my book, it is. A victory constitutes you had bested them in some aspect.. the people who knocked you out obviously bested you by exploiting the low knock resistance you have. Get over it.
I'm sorry, but I'm confused again. You state that victory means beating them in some aspect? So if they use devices/powers better than you do, does that mean it's all good and that you should "Get over it"? Also, I'm guessing your character has a high amount of Str right? So you should have loads and loads of KnockResistance right? So if someone with "low knock resistance" were to knock you out of the ring... You wouldn't get upset then? Mind you, I'm not saying Ring-Outs aren't valid ways to win. If that's your thing, then that's your thing. All I'm saying is that some people don't consider it a real win. Also, it's not difficult at all to make a scrawny low knock resistance build that can knock your high Str build out of the ring EVERY single time. I can think of one way right now and it's not very complicated at all. I'm sure almost everyone else here can think of it as well.
It's PvP. "Do unto others before they do unto you". The only restrictions are those you place upon yourself. Honor, restraint, charity, fair play are ALL VERY VERY relative/subjective terms. We should try not to "look down our noses" at anyone's build/playstyle. The only exception to this I would make are for poor loosers/winners. There's no valid reason to put someone down after you just facerolled them in under 5 seconds. If you don't have anything nice to say, just keep quiet.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my ****... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
That's the very problem PVP presents to those who wish to play it (Newb) or a person looking to go back to it. (Vet since beta) If you don't play hero games most of the time you can't speak out on the very same game we "ALL" play? If you don't PvP, you don't know how to build or know synergy between powers and sets?
You automatically must be inferior to a hardcore pvper because you choose not to be part of those games more often then not?
I will say this, dueling against some of these so called-pvp builds isn't that difficult if you know what you're doing. So, yes there are builds that can compete with said builds.
THAT"S NOT THE POINT!!
People don't want to be around the EGO games and fights that have nothing to do with the game itself! Look at these forums. It's a damn shame.
I just want us all to get along, so we can focus on making this a better place for all of us.
I can only imagine what a dev or devs would think looking in this section." Help these people?" Yeah , right! They are too busy fighting one another.
Even if you don't pvp, you play this game. You most likely know someone who does.
Or even have or do now. Nobody is irrelevant. If that's how some think, we will never get more people playing hero games or getting along period!
Monday, i tried to get a few friends to que for hero games (Bash) they said "Why the fck would we do that"? "Nothing but jerks there")Sigh...So i came to the forums to see what was going on in this section, maybe get a few tips for bringing in some pretty cool and different builds.
But the attitude i see around here by some has not changed. It's not very welcoming.
I told my friends to come read for yourself or jump into hero games and get a taste.
No more peace treaty from me. They gotta figure it out for themselves.
At this point it really doesn't matter.
I think it's unrealistic to say that the main thing that's making pvp unpopular isn't what happens when people participate while not using established "best" setups. What people say about pvp is a secondary cause at best.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Considering the amount of times people see others saying (in General Forums, not even considering the crap in Zone chat) "PvP is BROKEN Don't bother with Hero Games"... I think that sort of jargon has a lot of influence on the masses who have never PvP'd or are not yet level 40 and are bored with current PvE content.
It might help if everything they heard wasn't immediately confirmed upon entering. It isn't really common in online games that the first time you enter pvp, you find yourself unable to even damage anyone, much less kill them, despite being the same level as everyone else and having the same level of gear. Then they spend a bunch of time getting farmed by groups of people, and then they find out that there's this whole thing about farming devices (but not through pvp)...and then some weird girl runs up, hits them once, and bounces away and somehow wins by doing that.
To then be told that the problem is the build they had so much fun making, in this game where customization is the one and only real bullet point, and if they want to participate in this part of the game they have to rebuild, and follow certain rules while doing so, in large part giving up the majority of the customization, or basically make no progress is going to strike a lot of people as draining the bath water so you can sit in the bath tub more effectively.
It's just too big of a deviation from the core of the game. It makes you start to wonder why you're choosing to pvp in CO, when you can't really play CO while pvping in CO... I mean, you could be a pile of numbers in some other game with an active pvp community that's actually seeing some development.
What's the counterargument to all this? What do you really get in exchange for what you give up to make "progress" in pvp?
Hell, it's true, people spend a lot of time saying bad stuff about pvp here... ever wonder why you rarely see anyone saying anything good about it?
Finish this senteance: Champions Online has better pvp than any other online game because ______
and no, "because I'm winning." is not a good answer.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Everyone matters, and just because some of us don't play the way they do doesn't mean we can't be good, or that our perspective of the game is inferior to theirs, and it doesn't mean they can't improve theirs from ours. :P
I can see now why some pvp players think they're superior though. In pvp, we rely on a more fundamental skill set than the people who become lazy killing stationary NPCs.... blah blah blah I won't bore anyone with the explanation. On the other hand, most PvP players don't learn how to become good with the things that are used in PvE, they just assume it doesn't work. That's part of the reason why I'll never build cookie-cutters.
In general I really loathe the way most people see this game, in PvE and PvP, especially the opinionated builders.... but I'll leave that alone...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my ****... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."