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STO Interactive Communication VS CO Dev Silence
crypticbuxom
Posts: 4,620 Arc User
The STO devs seems to be working and discussing things to enhance gameplay through an RP perspective discussed here.
It seems CO customers are getting further and further behind when it comes to being involved with interacting with their devs. When STO communication is active enough to interact with their customers like this beyond activity reports and updates, its a wonder why the CO side should have any problems with communication at all. Why is it so much harder for Champions to have any communication?
Maybe the entire of Cryptic's staff should work on all their games at once and share work policies and innovation rather than cut Champions off.
Discuss your thoughts on this and be sure to check the link in the news update about what they discussed here. Its pretty much a bunch of stuff that the players have been wanting and offering as suggestions freely, even when Cryptic isn't begging for ideas.
It seems CO customers are getting further and further behind when it comes to being involved with interacting with their devs. When STO communication is active enough to interact with their customers like this beyond activity reports and updates, its a wonder why the CO side should have any problems with communication at all. Why is it so much harder for Champions to have any communication?
Maybe the entire of Cryptic's staff should work on all their games at once and share work policies and innovation rather than cut Champions off.
Discuss your thoughts on this and be sure to check the link in the news update about what they discussed here. Its pretty much a bunch of stuff that the players have been wanting and offering as suggestions freely, even when Cryptic isn't begging for ideas.
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but I know why it doesn't happen here, not only do we have no one really working full time here but the Devs assigned here have always been "RP? What's that some sort of .. chatting with PvP added?"
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I just voiced this concern in another thread, albeit at as a blurb (well, short list actually).
Well said OP. This game needs some love.
CO feels like it's forgotten, with someone only stopping by to feed the hamster running the server now and then when they pass by and notice the office door's been left open.
Do we even HAVE devs anymore? Feels like everything's been left on autopilot and is waiting to crash. Can someone go to STO and ask the devs why CO's been left to stagnate in its piles of lockboxes and bugs (many of which are unfixed despite the fact they predate RELOADED and go all the way back to ON ALERT) andtell them to come back to us.
I have no interest in Star Trek, especially if the way their treating of CO now is a hint of how they're going to treat STO once NWN comes out - namely, forget about it immediately and go play with their new toy like an impatient and easily-bored five-year-old.
I understand that sentiment but there's a huge difference that few over here on the CO side like to hear and it's one of several reasons STO is very unlikely to be treated like CO any time soon in the post NW release future. They've already announced that Star Trek is PWE's best performing title right now. Note: Not just Cryptic's, but PWE's across all of their titles. Champions Online on its best day could never boast anything like that. The cold simple truth is that the attention goes to where the money is and STO makes more, much more, by their reporting. STO is also significantly more populated than CO which means a larger target audience to cater to and attempt to gain funds from.
Now people with more energy and care left than I have at this point can debate the oft-debated point of which came first the lack of attention for the game or the lack of funds going to the game from the player base but the situation remains what it is currently.
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We must... DESTROY STAR TREK.
*dramatic thunderstrike*
Actually, with the Voyager episode "threshold" the movie's new universe, and the entirety of the series Enterprise, I guess that's a tougher thing to attempt than something we can just casually say. Star Trek's PERSISTENT.
Enjoy the game for what it is. If its not enough for you, I am sure there are other
Titles out there.
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So it makes sense now that when they say that "STO is just doing so much better than CO and that's why it gets all these devs." I want to see how CO stands up compared to PWE's other titles. Especially since Champions was mentioned in the article as something STO stands up over when Perfect World wasn't even mentioned.
People don't want to start playing a game title if it looks like nothing is being added compared to that company's other titles.
Here's hoping NWO being released is what CO needs to get its devs back.
It is good to see you finally stop denying that CO is in development stasis.
This is the first step in the grieving process and I see the beginnings of the next step, anger.
Now don't try to skip ahead to bargaining!
Let the grieving process flow.
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
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I don't agree with several of these assertions. While I love the game, I don't believe CO could ever have gotten near the success of STO. Anything Star Trek pulls from a massive fan base. Companies make money from rather clumsy tea sets and knickknacks relating to the franchise, for example. A little known superhero pnp property just does not hold the same attraction for the population at large, in my humble opinion.
It is my fear, as stated elsewhere, that Cryptic looked at the numbers coming out of CoH and decided the profit made by the most successful super-hero MMORPG does not match what the company believes they can get out of STO and NWO. If that is the case, I expect company resources to stay with those properties. Putting effort towards what will maximize profits seems like the more competent business move. I do not expect we will see resources shifted to CO following the release of NWO, unless that MMO fails miserably and CO suddenly looks like a better option in terms of revenue generation.
I do agree. There is a self fulfilling prophecy in all of this. Without love, lower performing titles tend to sink to even lower performing levels.
Basically, it sucks to be us (CO players and fans), but I think I understand Cryptic's business decisions. I would be inclined to make the same choices were I in a similar situation.
All that being said. I would love to read a "State of the Game" or "Ask Cryptic" or attend a "RP Roundtable" in CO. Communication, even when spreading bad news, is largely seen as positive by an audience and costs relatively little to produce. The lack of regular customer contact looks like a poor business decision on the company's part given the effort/reward ratio of such contact.
a
Because CO has no vision or direction (and is also not as profitable as STO). So there is nothing for the devs to discuss with us.
Other titles out there? Not in the Superhero genre, aside of DCUO, and it's largely a overhyped game, with a rather limited customizer, rather than a full-fledged Be A Hero game like CO, and nowhere near CO's level of design freedom. I wanna make my own hero, the way I want, not be boxed-in by someone else's idea of how I should look, and feel like a glorified sidekick.
How is it less profitable? They literally both run off the same subscription design! The only thing STO has in its favor is paying to get licensing permissions from Paramount to use their stuff. Whereas Cryptic literally OWNS Champions now, no licensing fees needed, so they could potentially make more with CO, since they're not having to pay anyone to keep it.
It all boils down to PWE's comments about how they don't care about games older than three years. CO turned three, and they left it to rot. I still say the best thing that could happen would be for Blizzard to buy Cryptic and lend them some support - WoW's been going for nearly a decade now and is still millions strong... can you imagine CO with their kind of backing?
STO is more profitable because it can be advertised using a major genre name (and it's fun to play - that would appear to be DCUO's downfall; they have the major name, but not the gameplay). Champions is a fairly big name in the tabletop supers genre - but that's not saying a lot; it's never been a large niche, and unless a new version of Marvel Super Heroes has been released, its biggest competitors are GURPS Supers and Mutants and Masterminds.
Now be honest - how many of the names in that last paragraph were familiar to you?
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My evidence is strictly anecdotal, but It looks like STO has a much larger player base than CO. More players would seem to indicate greater profits and greater potential for profit.
a
1) They don't run off the same financial model. The stuff they sell in STO is not just the same type of stuff they sell in CO. There is a difference in what is being sold, the quality of what is being sold, the quantity of what is being sold, how what is being sold fits into the game from a usefulness standpoint, the cost of what is being sold and how what is being sold fits into the game's economy.
2) STO has a MUCH larger established base of fans than the Champions license. Personal example: I'd never heard of the Champions license until September 2009, I'd heard of Star Trek since 1980 (the year I came into existence as it was/is mother's favorite TV series). I'm far from the only person with this experience.
3) There are way more people playing STO. It's among the first things you notice when you play both games. There are WAY more people playing, WAY more people moving about the various areas, WAY more activity in the various zone chats. I'd imagine that would contribute to there being more funds available.
4) Because Cryptic/PWE have stated as much in various forms of media and to investors.
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I like the cut of your jib sir! You have phrased the situation far better than I ever could.
I don't foresee any major updates to the game.
That being said, I love playing Champions Online and I will continue patrolling the skies and alley ways of MC until they shut down all the beaco... I mean servers.
Addendum:
With Project X in the pipeline, even if NWO bombs, I don't see PWE shifting any resources back to CO.
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
***
"The great thing about glory unending is that it's dirt cheap!" - Tateklys
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***
Exactly where I'm at.
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That's because CO is being left to stagnate, and thus fewer people want to come here.
Nobody wants to visit a diner where the food is stale, the waitstaff is absent, and the tables are dirty. But Cryptic, right now, is barely being given the money to keep the lights turned on, much less hire folks to come clean up the place, bus tables, and refresh the menu. All the boss' cash is going to fund that big-name bistro to keep it stocked with gourmet meals.
If our little diner could get some money and staff, we could get things back in order and be able to draw in more customers.
Its just that everything the game offered up to Hideouts was worth the Lifetime price tag while everything after that was not. The comics are the exception.
I mean, go look at the history of the KDF faction. It should sound really familiar.
While there are problems with STO, though, as an occasional CO player I have to laugh: they don't realize how lucky being paid attention to sometimes is...
Nowadays I play STO. I'd rather play CO, but it lacks the entertaining gameplay and basic gamut of 'things to do' that STO has.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Some people won't be happy until it is shutdown so they are proven right and then the "I told you so!" can begin.
Most of us, however, would much rather prefer we get some actual attention. Nobody who actually enjoys something wants to see it end. Those who want it shut down to prove a point never really cared about it to begin with.
But begin where? Who are they going to tell? People in another game on another forum?
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The question here relates to the definition of "great." For a business, that might mean profitable. For us as players, that means something else. The two definitions might be incompatible. Unless great=profit, I think you're right. Cryptic doesn't want to make CO a "great" game in the face of other properties that will be "greater." I wouldn't expect them to.
I think CO is a great game. It allows me to create characters I want to play with very little limitations. It's got a few great story bits, even if it could use some more, and a fine RP community.
a
One difference. An interview a few days ago actually mentioned specifically the KDF and some possible fixes to it. CO hasn't even had that much mention from any dev about fixing anything in a long time.
So for as much as people on the STO side complain about lack of communication it is really not comparable to CO. Hell, STO gets patches...and patch notes...
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No, that's not really why as much as I'd like to say so. STO has consistently had a larger base because it is a well-known, popular established franchise with a tremendous history behind it. CO has always been niche and small in comparison. COs development coming to a cease really didn't change anything about STO consistently being the bigger brother since it launched.
To be blunt, as much as I personally love CO I'd be dishonest if I didn't notice that people were stopping wanting to come here before it became stagnant for a number of very valid reasons.
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Problem is, kenpo, that they said a lot about improving KDF before:
http://www.stowiki.org/User:Peregrine_Falcon
See? It's quite enlightening experience. A real eye opener.
And a reason why I've ditched STO, as I'm completely not interested in Federation side.
It's as believable as any previous UNTIL reports here.
Cryptic has its way of doing things. With every game.
I didn't say they'd do it. We all should know how that goes by now (those of us "old timers" who are still here). I said that they mentioned it which sadly is more than what we get on this side from any dev...a mere mention.
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It's simply that I'm a bit biased about promises at this point.
But the best part is - what KDF has mentioned for them is basically an equivalent of revamping Qularr invasion. They really should give a caped costumes and travel powers to KDF and analogy would be even more complete. :biggrin:
This points out an interesting issue. Sometimes communication can prove counter productive to a company.
I went to a presentation by John Deere's Director of Social Media a few years back. The company actively solicited pictures of people and their tractors, and would delete pictures they found inappropriate. Stuff like children driving massive combines while holding a can of beer. Initially, they would send the poster a notice that the image violated company policy, blah, blah, blah. This would elicit angry emails to the tune of "Who are you to tell me how to raise my kids you fascist pigs?!" So John Deere stopped. They would delete inappropriate images and never tell anyone why. It was easier and better for the company image.
With the audience holding every written word as gospel, Cyptic may feel its more productive to keep quiet about CO.
I still think there are things the could tell us. I sure hope there are.
a
What is this "hope" thing that you speak of?
But I feel you brother.
I too hope there is more. I'm just afraid that the prolonged dearth of information is... "problematic". As in "No soup for YOU!"
I guess you could say I'm conflicted.
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
***
"The great thing about glory unending is that it's dirt cheap!" - Tateklys
From the Adventures of Thundrax (canadascott)
***
The level of investment in this game seems to be less than it was in CoH and what it is now in DCUO. So, I don't bite the whole STO and NWO are better so we have to starve CO.
While main IPs attracts more people, it is also true that they imply additional costs of licensing.
My theory is that they are using CO as buffer. Instead of hiring new people for development on a short basis, which implies additional costs, it is easier to move people from CO who: 1) knows the engine, the company philosophy and they don't need to sign a new contract.
Still sucks the way they treat CO, I usually buy zen everytime they offer it on sale(to consume it on CO, STO or raiderz), but I am kind of reluctant at this point due to the abusive treatment CO is getting.
What's really sad is consider that when a company says something is it's best performing property (as was stated about STO) that generally means it's its most profitable one. Now consider what you just said about a main IP like STO having a licensing cost while Cryptic owns CO so doesn't have a licensing cost for it. STO even factoring in the overhead of a licensing cost is still more profitable than CO. That's very telling and, emotions and biases aside, a simple reason why STO gets more attention and CO gets "starved".
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
The verbe tense is key here, how was the relation a year ago after Atari is what is actually important. Of course, after putting all that effort(50 devs) they would have to be really bad to not having an improvement. "To make money you need to invest money first".
And still, I don't see SOE neglecting DCUO because Everquest 2 or any future game is more popular.
Here's the thing - people always say "superheroes can't pull like [insert bull**** here]."
Superheroes are one of the longest running franchises in the world.
Superheroes are internationally successful.
Superheroes have succeeded in every medium from comic book, to book, to video game, to tv show, to animated tv show, to music, to amusement park rides, to radio drama, to movies even when they "fail." There's one quote by Singer (who I actually dislike immensely) where he makes a valid point - "That movie made $400 million! I don?t know what constitutes under-performing these days..."
Superhero works have been critically acclaimed in almost every medium.
Superhero movies have routinely held the spots for highest grossing movies of all time for the past 15 years.
And it's not franchise - Crackdown, Infamous, Prototype, and who knows what else, have all been successful superhero endeavors that had no franchise to fall back on, meanwhile Superman 64.
So yeah, Star Trek and D&D and Battle-Art (seriously, filter?) and whatever all else may have their easy built in franchises (ain't no 10 million international Battle-Art III devotees to explain that ****, but lets go with it) thus making it easier for them to profit.
But if you can't make some money when Avengers hit's top 3 of all time and your only competition folds there is something seriously wrong with you, not your genre.
And saying we can't pull like STO - fine, maybe we can't. Can we pull like CoX? There's no reason we can't pull like CoX.
And CoX had absolutely no franchise, no name, no known developers, no anything besides an idea and that other thing....
Umm...
Oh!
Marketing.
CoH had marketing?!?
I've done that before. Their community managers and forum peoples will outright nuke said posts.
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It did. I saw a commercial (still on IGN's YouTube), it's been shown in TV shows, I've seen banners, cardboard cutouts and magazine articles. They had Heroclix, card games, comics and books.
That's one of my points. I'm thinking they looked at the numbers CoH pulled and went, "Hey, those numbers look pretty good, but I bet we can make more money if we invest it in our other, non super-hero MMO's."
And in the absence of numbers (I would love to see some), who can say how CO's population compares to CoH? If it's on par, oh wow. I think we're really in trouble.
Thanks for the reminder about the success of super-heroes across mediums. A modern setting without elves. The continued success of WoW continues to puzzle me, but I have personally always favored super heroics over fantasy.
a
That's more my opinion of why CO never really took off. STO you really don't have to do a ton of marketing to get peoples attention. It's a know IP. Neverwinter is similar, but even still...it's only know to people who have been gaming for quite a while.
Champs never had any advertising that I can recall. I remember hearing about it, then nothing until my beta invite showed up in my email. I can remember thinking "did I sign up for this?" then noticed it was open beta. I had completely forgotten about it until then.
I think if Atari/Cryptic had done more marketing it would have helped. A bit. Other things that happened at/after launch didn't help.
I still enjoy playing the game as it is. I'm not a min/max or theorycrafter, I do know that some of y'all would probably cry if you saw how I've built some of my toons.
Ultimately, this is all water under the bridge at this point. What happens next is up to Cryptic/PWE. If they don't feel it's worth the time to discuss things with the player base, then they don't. If they do, then that's great and we can go from there.
I know past experience doesn't lead me to believe things will change, but I've seen stranger things happen.
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CO did have some splash pages in DC and Marvel comics and a rather large presence at GenCon in 2008. That's pretty much all I can remember, at the moment.
But yeah. If we learn anything from beer marketing, the one with the largest presence sells the most bottles and cans.
a
You mean they took their phasers off of stun?
As they hand pick the questions they answer and the answers they give are mostly PR spin with no real substance most of the time, you probably wouldn't get any response at all.