Thanks, menotrpa. I was wondering the same thing. Are you saying that they're account bound, or that they don't bind at all, and can be traded even after being used?
I don't have a vehicle (and so far have little reason to get one) but if they work like Become Devices, and I see no real reason they would function differently as they are nearly the same, they can be traded or sold whenever you feel like.
So, I am still pretty new to CO and this has been my first experience with lockboxes as a commerce system. I figured I should give it a fair shake and form my own opinions about their worth/value and how balanced they seem towards receiving the actual desired items intended to be the lure of the boxes.
So... I'm not super pumped about the lockbox situation. I was really looking forward to the hover bikes, and purchased a little extra Zen so that I could pick one up. I was a little disappointed that they weren't offered through the store directly, but I figured I'd spend the money I was planning to spend on the bike on some keys and check this commerce mechanic out for my self.
I have unlocked 20 boxes... I have received a large pile of the lowest tier rewards available. I have received some nice boost devices, and some drifter salvage that I can put towards a tank or a jet, so it isn't a total wash for me, but for long time players that most likely have a small army of max level toons and a pile of loot and boosts, this would be really crappy.
For me, I got some stuff that I can use, and I'll get at least a vehicle in the end... but not one that is even the type I was interested in. I didn't buy a tank or jet because I wasn't really interested in those... now they are my consolation prize.
In summary, the lockboxes don't really seem to be worth the money unless you are looking for the boosts and drifter salvage as a close second to the prize you are trying to win. I can't speak to odds of getting a bike right now, because between me and two other friends , we have purchased about 45 - 50 keys since yesterday and none of us have received a bike yet, but I'll keep you posted.
I wonder if the final stage of the F2P/lockbox business model involves diminishing odds of success for the prized item, after establishing higher expectations, in order to squeeze as much final revenue as possible. Just a little thought experiment: If you had no accountability as far as needing to publish odds for the gamble boxes for your game that you had no more interest in investing in, and knew that players would be gradually leaving anyway, how would you maximize your last bit of profit?
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I expect the odds on the bikes will be about the same as the tanks (which i opened over 1000 on test as did others to get a good idea on the odds)
That would be about 1% chance at the 8 slot bike, 2-3% chance of one of the 4 slot bikes, and 96-97% of some vehicle mods and minor boosts (xp, resources, crafting skill etc)
Later I expect theyll add 2-3 more low slot bikes to the z store and 1-2 low slot and the other 8 slot to the drifter store, again like the tanks.
They've almost certainly spaced them out to try and sell more keys before people can get the bikes by the other methods.
will Grav bikes be on the market place as well?
Deffinately, already seen some people advertising selling them in zone.
I would be fine with "here are a couple of bikes you can buy, and here are some lockboxes with a tiny little drop chance of much better bikes". I'd even be fine with "here's one mediocre bike you can buy, and here's 50 fantastic ones in lockboxes".
But "sorry, you can't have a bike; you can only have a chance for a bike" is very, very annoying. It does the exact opposite of make me want to open lockboxes.
Edit: whereas, I would absolutely buy the mediocre bike and then occasionally buy some keys. That's what I do in STO; the lockboxes are the lottery, you play them for fun.
Getting snippey are we? Feeling a little trollish today Ashensnow? U mad?
Look, I know I've said it before more than once on these forums, and the proof is as easy as Google searching "Department of Justice" AND "Online Poker". Also search "US law" and "lottery odds". Quit being so lazy and look it up yourself, mmk? I'd normally just post links to make it easy, but since you choose to be a jerk about it and I know you are capable of looking it up, go find it yourself. Not going to waste my time if you're copping and attitude like that. Maybe you're not from the US, but even still use some common sense please and run a search. After about the 3rd time I grow tired of doing the whole lengthy expose, not to mention on of the criticisms I get are that some of my posts are rather wordy. And here I thought you were one of the smart posters that actually reads and researches... Hmpf!
Bottom-line, yes, not posting the odds on gambling stuff is not legal in the US, and yes the video game industry gets around it by using a fiat currency (in this case it's Zen). Also don't forget, in my opinion/experience most game companies are too small to really interest federal lawyers anyways (wasn't true with Online Poker with several websites transfering millions of dollars every month between players). In other words I wouldn't be surpised if we were too small to show up on the radar.
I just lost my Zen for Key that dont ever give me at least 1 Bike anbd i try it 10 time!
I hate your new way to take my money..i hate you alll!
You stole me...i want my expecting Bike!
I never give you more money from now, until you stop that and give me my Bike!
Sorry for your bad luck, but gambling your wealth away isn't their fault, it's your own.
Getting snippey are we? Feeling a little trollish today Ashensnow? U mad?
Look, I know I've said it before more than once on these forums, and the proof is as easy as Google searching "Department of Justice" AND "Online Poker". Also search "US law" and "lottery odds". Quit being so lazy and look it up yourself, mmk? I'd normally just post links to make it easy, but since you choose to be a jerk about it and I know you are capable of looking it up, go find it yourself. Not going to waste my time if you're copping and attitude like that. Maybe you're not from the US, but even still use some common sense please and run a search. After about the 3rd time I grow tired of doing the whole lengthy expose, not to mention on of the criticisms I get are that some of my posts are rather wordy. And here I thought you were one of the smart posters that actually reads and researches... Hmpf!
Bottom-line, yes, not posting the odds on gambling stuff is not legal in the US, and yes the video game industry gets around it by using a fiat currency (in this case it's Zen). Also don't forget, in my opinion/experience most game companies are too small to really interest federal lawyers anyways (wasn't true with Online Poker with several websites transfering millions of dollars every month between players). In other words I wouldn't be surpised if we were too small to show up on the radar.
:
You jumped on another player for not providing proof to support his comments after opting to not provide proof for your own.
I asked the same exact question you did, and yet I am a troll ?
Should I assume that your decision to not live up to the standards of proof you hold over others means that you cannot provide said proof ?
I'm guilty of spending 3500G on the Hawk after seeing it on the AH, and I must say..
I LOVE GRAV BIKES!
Wouldn't have bought keys to gamble for it though.
And personally don't like the fact that they have different number of 'slots', not unless they were zen-store items and the gimped ones were cheaper alternatives. Or at least have both models on the high tier ones as well, so players can have a choice.
Ashensnow, if you have an issue you need to take it up privately.
I feel the thread is being derailed by this argument.
I feel you initiated a hostile reaction, when the tone (from my PoV) was more of a "where the **** did you see that?!" originally (seems to be clearly either: incredulous if true, insider information and true, or false and meant to vent frustrations and get a reaction out of the readers)
I feel I am not obligated to do the research for somebody who is holding a knife to my back (figuratively speaking). Apparently it's statutory law in the state of california (check the state's lottery website), so I was wrong about it being federal actually. There's even a tollfree number you can call if so inclined for California.
And I feel you are acting as a moderator doling out justice as you go, but to be fair I also made that same error towards the original poster. Hmm, I'm sorry or that then... (but you doing the same is the old addage of "two wrongs don't make a right")
So if you feel obligated to reply to this. PM me. This current discussion is lose-lose (best to avoid those scenerios), so time for me to walk away from this thread, find a more productive use of my time.
Anyways please continue your regular programming about how you love Gravbikes and/or hate how they were implemented.
I did a bit of digging, and as far as I can tell, as long as you are guaranteed to get something when you use a cosmic key, it is not technically gambling. Sure, there may be better or worse stuff in there, but you are getting something for your money, when you open a lockbox. Of course, the perceived value of a bunch of low level vehicle mods that you can't use or *only* 2 Drifter salvage likely has a much much lower perceived value to someone who really just wanted a bike...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I did a bit of digging, and as far as I can tell, as long as you are guaranteed to get something when you use a cosmic key, it is not technically gambling. Sure, there may be better or worse stuff in there, but you are getting something for your money, when you open a lockbox. Of course, the perceived value of a bunch of low level vehicle mods that you can't use or *only* 2 Drifter salvage likely has a much much lower perceived value to someone who really just wanted a bike...
It may not be considered gambling technically by some laws interpretation, but it is still gambling.
Just instead of gambling x to get 0 or y, you are gambling x to get either y (of lower value than your stake) or z (of higher value).
Even if all the options you could get from the box were worth more than the stake (which we all know they arent) it would STILL be gambling - using a stake for a chance of something you want (the vehicle) over something you dont and otherwise wouldnt get (the mods).
I did a bit of digging, and as far as I can tell, as long as you are guaranteed to get something when you use a cosmic key, it is not technically gambling. Sure, there may be better or worse stuff in there, but you are getting something for your money, when you open a lockbox. Of course, the perceived value of a bunch of low level vehicle mods that you can't use or *only* 2 Drifter salvage likely has a much much lower perceived value to someone who really just wanted a bike...
Correct, this is why PWE and other companies have been able to do this for years.
It may not be considered gambling technically by some laws interpretation, but it is still gambling.
Just instead of gambling x to get 0 or y, you are gambling x to get either y (of lower value than your stake) or z (of higher value).
Even if all the options you could get from the box were worth more than the stake (which we all know they arent) it would STILL be gambling - using a stake for a chance of something you want (the vehicle) over something you dont and otherwise wouldnt get (the mods).
As a general thought, I agree with you, but technically with "gambling", there's a chance you lose and come away empty-handed. In the case of lockboxes, you *always* come away with *something*.
You are absolutely right that the perceived value of what is won may be much lower than what the player expected (read: hoped) to win. That doesn't change the fact that you still didn't come away empty handed...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
"Gambling" or not it's still "chance". I don't buy chances or possibilities. If I pay money, I want to buy what I want, not a possibility of getting what I want.
It's similar to buying packs of collectible cards. Once you have the basic set of commons, you hope that each booster pack will contain a rare card. When a pack just has more commons, you still get something.
My advice, save your Gs (if Gold or LTS) and buy what you want in the Auction House.
As a general thought, I agree with you, but technically with "gambling", there's a chance you lose and come away empty-handed. In the case of lockboxes, you *always* come away with *something*.
You are absolutely right that the perceived value of what is won may be much lower than what the player expected (read: hoped) to win. That doesn't change the fact that you still didn't come away empty handed...
I see where you're coming from bioshrike, but as I see it, it depends on the name of the product. If there is only a tiny chance of getting a vehicle from a 'vehicle' lock box then I would say it's gambling. After all, they are not called 'drifter salvage' lock boxes.
Well , if they come to the Cstore, I'll buy but the lockboxes no thanks. Gambling is not how I want to spend my Zen thank you. I was really looking forward to the grav bikes too. ( Sad face )
What bugs me about these boxes is that I get very little else.
Can I equip a grav bike lockbox instead of using pre Alert equipment? can I forge the grav bike lockboxes to fit the holes these changes have made to my play experience?
I had to take a break from CO for a year and Im not overly impressed by all the changes. Why you break game? :eek:
EDIT: After having another day at it I'm growing to the changes, I might even have to change my mind :cool:
Double edit: These bikes are really cool. Worth the Zen. :biggrin:
Comments
I don't have a vehicle (and so far have little reason to get one) but if they work like Become Devices, and I see no real reason they would function differently as they are nearly the same, they can be traded or sold whenever you feel like.
Not a chance, because Cryptic wouldnt be able to sell them again and again will only skin changes.
So... I'm not super pumped about the lockbox situation. I was really looking forward to the hover bikes, and purchased a little extra Zen so that I could pick one up. I was a little disappointed that they weren't offered through the store directly, but I figured I'd spend the money I was planning to spend on the bike on some keys and check this commerce mechanic out for my self.
I have unlocked 20 boxes... I have received a large pile of the lowest tier rewards available. I have received some nice boost devices, and some drifter salvage that I can put towards a tank or a jet, so it isn't a total wash for me, but for long time players that most likely have a small army of max level toons and a pile of loot and boosts, this would be really crappy.
For me, I got some stuff that I can use, and I'll get at least a vehicle in the end... but not one that is even the type I was interested in. I didn't buy a tank or jet because I wasn't really interested in those... now they are my consolation prize.
In summary, the lockboxes don't really seem to be worth the money unless you are looking for the boosts and drifter salvage as a close second to the prize you are trying to win. I can't speak to odds of getting a bike right now, because between me and two other friends , we have purchased about 45 - 50 keys since yesterday and none of us have received a bike yet, but I'll keep you posted.
- LM
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
That would be about 1% chance at the 8 slot bike, 2-3% chance of one of the 4 slot bikes, and 96-97% of some vehicle mods and minor boosts (xp, resources, crafting skill etc)
Later I expect theyll add 2-3 more low slot bikes to the z store and 1-2 low slot and the other 8 slot to the drifter store, again like the tanks.
They've almost certainly spaced them out to try and sell more keys before people can get the bikes by the other methods.
Deffinately, already seen some people advertising selling them in zone.
But "sorry, you can't have a bike; you can only have a chance for a bike" is very, very annoying. It does the exact opposite of make me want to open lockboxes.
Edit: whereas, I would absolutely buy the mediocre bike and then occasionally buy some keys. That's what I do in STO; the lockboxes are the lottery, you play them for fun.
Getting snippey are we? Feeling a little trollish today Ashensnow? U mad?
Look, I know I've said it before more than once on these forums, and the proof is as easy as Google searching "Department of Justice" AND "Online Poker". Also search "US law" and "lottery odds". Quit being so lazy and look it up yourself, mmk? I'd normally just post links to make it easy, but since you choose to be a jerk about it and I know you are capable of looking it up, go find it yourself. Not going to waste my time if you're copping and attitude like that. Maybe you're not from the US, but even still use some common sense please and run a search. After about the 3rd time I grow tired of doing the whole lengthy expose, not to mention on of the criticisms I get are that some of my posts are rather wordy. And here I thought you were one of the smart posters that actually reads and researches... Hmpf!
Bottom-line, yes, not posting the odds on gambling stuff is not legal in the US, and yes the video game industry gets around it by using a fiat currency (in this case it's Zen). Also don't forget, in my opinion/experience most game companies are too small to really interest federal lawyers anyways (wasn't true with Online Poker with several websites transfering millions of dollars every month between players). In other words I wouldn't be surpised if we were too small to show up on the radar.
That's positive thinking for moving on. *thumbs up*
Sorry for your bad luck, but gambling your wealth away isn't their fault, it's your own.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
You jumped on another player for not providing proof to support his comments after opting to not provide proof for your own.
I asked the same exact question you did, and yet I am a troll ?
Should I assume that your decision to not live up to the standards of proof you hold over others means that you cannot provide said proof ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I LOVE GRAV BIKES!
Wouldn't have bought keys to gamble for it though.
And personally don't like the fact that they have different number of 'slots', not unless they were zen-store items and the gimped ones were cheaper alternatives. Or at least have both models on the high tier ones as well, so players can have a choice.
I feel the thread is being derailed by this argument.
I feel you initiated a hostile reaction, when the tone (from my PoV) was more of a "where the **** did you see that?!" originally (seems to be clearly either: incredulous if true, insider information and true, or false and meant to vent frustrations and get a reaction out of the readers)
I feel I am not obligated to do the research for somebody who is holding a knife to my back (figuratively speaking). Apparently it's statutory law in the state of california (check the state's lottery website), so I was wrong about it being federal actually. There's even a tollfree number you can call if so inclined for California.
And I feel you are acting as a moderator doling out justice as you go, but to be fair I also made that same error towards the original poster. Hmm, I'm sorry or that then... (but you doing the same is the old addage of "two wrongs don't make a right")
So if you feel obligated to reply to this. PM me. This current discussion is lose-lose (best to avoid those scenerios), so time for me to walk away from this thread, find a more productive use of my time.
Anyways please continue your regular programming about how you love Gravbikes and/or hate how they were implemented.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
It may not be considered gambling technically by some laws interpretation, but it is still gambling.
Just instead of gambling x to get 0 or y, you are gambling x to get either y (of lower value than your stake) or z (of higher value).
Even if all the options you could get from the box were worth more than the stake (which we all know they arent) it would STILL be gambling - using a stake for a chance of something you want (the vehicle) over something you dont and otherwise wouldnt get (the mods).
Correct, this is why PWE and other companies have been able to do this for years.
As a general thought, I agree with you, but technically with "gambling", there's a chance you lose and come away empty-handed. In the case of lockboxes, you *always* come away with *something*.
You are absolutely right that the perceived value of what is won may be much lower than what the player expected (read: hoped) to win. That doesn't change the fact that you still didn't come away empty handed...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
My advice, save your Gs (if Gold or LTS) and buy what you want in the Auction House.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I see where you're coming from bioshrike, but as I see it, it depends on the name of the product. If there is only a tiny chance of getting a vehicle from a 'vehicle' lock box then I would say it's gambling. After all, they are not called 'drifter salvage' lock boxes.
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Can I equip a grav bike lockbox instead of using pre Alert equipment? can I forge the grav bike lockboxes to fit the holes these changes have made to my play experience?
I had to take a break from CO for a year and Im not overly impressed by all the changes. Why you break game? :eek:
EDIT: After having another day at it I'm growing to the changes, I might even have to change my mind :cool:
Double edit: These bikes are really cool. Worth the Zen. :biggrin: