I think the Doom and Gloom comes from so many because they love this game and want it to succeed. I myself fall into that category, which is why I am still around. The crapy part of it, no matter what we say it will fall on deaf ears. That is due to the fact we have no proof that ANY devs read these threads, and based off responses and the updates we get, the answer would be that they dont.
They do pay attention in the PTS threads, because they have made changes based on suggestions there, but here nothing.
It sucks, but it is what we are stuck with.
As I always say, I would love to be proven wrong, i just haven't yet.
I am a COH player of 6 years and when this game came out I played it as well. I played both games at the say time mostly because to fulfill my needs. What one game lacked the other had. The teaming aspect of COH is what I loved the most about. Forming teams and the social interaction that went along with it, the new powers and updates was awesome too . In CO I like the ability to make the toon I wanted and it had my character creation choices. At one point CO had monthly updates..what happened. I heard rumors that all the Devs are gone. Is this the reason that they said they were scaling back on the updates to focus on quality content a while ago? COH is gone now and all we have is this game. Hopefully PW realizes this and commits more employees to this game. Lately the anger and complaints of the customers are getting worse as the months go on. Some stuff have been ridiculous; while others have been legit like this thread. I hope PWE reads this because if they keep ignoring their customers they are going to have problems.
Well Im sure that PWE have facebook page and Twitter accounts Im sure we can make a voice to get them to focus on the game more. I think even Jack Ermmett have one dont he I think instead of always talking on here we should just hit them up where everyone can see.
Ulti, buddy - Cryptic didn't "sell" CoH, they worked on it under contract. And then NCSoft fired them and created their own studio, Paragon. That's part of why Cryptic purchased the IP to Champions - after their experience with CoX, and then Marvel and Microsoft pulling out of what was to be Marvel Online, Cryptic wanted to make sure their game couldn't be taken from them again.
Of course, benevolent neglect isn't a lot better, but dealing with reality will always get you further than inaccurate hypotheses...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I just poked my head in the door at STO and... wow. They've done some amazing improvements, content, ships, all sorts of neat stuff that has revived my interest.
It pains me to think of what CO would be like if they had put that effort into CO.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I just poked my head in the door at STO and... wow. They've done some amazing improvements, content, ships, all sorts of neat stuff that has revived my interest.
It pains me to think of what CO would be like if they had put that effort into CO.
Add up the total amount of Zen on the CO exchange and then do the same on the STO exchange. Remember both sell and buy tabs.
Last night there were 96 instances of the Winter Wonderland.
Ulti, buddy - Cryptic didn't "sell" CoH, they worked on it under contract. And then NCSoft fired them and created their own studio, Paragon. That's part of why Cryptic purchased the IP to Champions - after their experience with CoX, and then Marvel and Microsoft pulling out of what was to be Marvel Online, Cryptic wanted to make sure their game couldn't be taken from them again.
Of course, benevolent neglect isn't a lot better, but dealing with reality will always get you further than inaccurate hypotheses...
Than my mistake, I heard something different, although you are right just ignoring the game doesn't help. Point being though NCsoft kicking them to the curve was best for that game in the long run. I feel that they should go and give the game to someone else who will show it more love than they are showing right now. If they are not going to put the manpower to make this a better game than sale the game to someone else.
Than my mistake, I heard something different, although you are right just ignoring the game doesn't help. Point being though NCsoft kicking them to the curve was best for that game in the long run. I feel that they should go and give the game to someone else who will show it more love than they are showing right now. If they are not going to put the manpower to make this a better game than sale the game to someone else.
I agree to this. I want someone running this game that will give it the time and manpower it deserves.
The boards are always filled with negativity, even when there is content put out.
The reason there is negativity is because people's concerns are NOT being addressed, or even so much as acknowledged. Not just once or twice or a few times, but over and over and OVER.
As far as anyone casually reading these forums might be able to tell, this game HAS NO DEV TEAM. Even trailturtle's posts seem to be limited to just release notes and a once-in-a-blue-moon random comment, and never with any REAL information on the future direction of the game.
If this isn't the hallmark of a game that is ALREADY in "maintenance mode" with no further development, I don't know what is.
And in my opinion (wait for it...) VEHICLES ARE NOT CONTENT.
Target1one
"ENOUGH!!! You are ALL of you BENEATH me! I am a GOD, you dull creature, and I will NOT be BULLIED by--" -- Loki
*SMASH* *SMASH* *SMASH* <pause> *SMASHSMASH* "... puny god..." -- Hulk
The reason there is negativity is because people's concerns are NOT being addressed, or even so much as acknowledged. Not just once or twice or a few times, but over and over and OVER.
As far as anyone casually reading these forums might be able to tell, this game HAS NO DEV TEAM. Even trailturtle's posts seem to be limited to just release notes and a once-in-a-blue-moon random comment, and never with any REAL information on the future direction of the game.
If this isn't the hallmark of a game that is ALREADY in "maintenance mode" with no further development, I don't know what is.
And in my opinion (wait for it...) VEHICLES ARE NOT CONTENT.
WHAT?!?! How can you...how can you say that?!?! I mean...they...well...I mean...yeah they brought nothing to the table. I mean I would have almost considered them Content if they had mission that let you earn one without having to pay for them.
Vehicles= Depressing waist of limited resources. They could have easilly been Awesome and worth, but I wont go into that here since there are enough threads covering that.
Negative posts are often something like you see a person lying on the floor and are not shure
if there is still any life in, so you shake her first and then start to slap in her face, just to look
if you can maybe get some signs of life out of her.
However .. the CO Team seems to be soooo dead .. heck i think its even over 6 months that
we got a new costume, and even if that is no real content, that was the thing that i would call
the nearest thing to content we've got.
And no .. vehicles are no content for me, especially since we are not in STO here.
Ulti, buddy - Cryptic didn't "sell" CoH, they worked on it under contract. And then NCSoft fired them and created their own studio, Paragon. That's part of why Cryptic purchased the IP to Champions - after their experience with CoX, and then Marvel and Microsoft pulling out of what was to be Marvel Online, Cryptic wanted to make sure their game couldn't be taken from them again.
Of course, benevolent neglect isn't a lot better, but dealing with reality will always get you further than inaccurate hypotheses...
The information you are providing here is incorrect. CoH was a 50/50 split ownership between Cryptic and NCSoft. When it was announced that Cryptic would be developing another MMO with the Marvel license, they sold their stake in CoH to prevent conflict of interest.
Ulti, buddy - Cryptic didn't "sell" CoH, they worked on it under contract. And then NCSoft fired them and created their own studio, Paragon.
...by making it out of all but one of the Cryptic staff working on CoX. If one didn't know better, one might think they were firing Jack personally. :biggrin:
EDIT: Or, of course, the much more plausible answer one post up.
Ulti, buddy - Cryptic didn't "sell" CoH, they worked on it under contract. And then NCSoft fired them and created their own studio, Paragon. That's part of why Cryptic purchased the IP to Champions - after their experience with CoX, and then Marvel and Microsoft pulling out of what was to be Marvel Online, Cryptic wanted to make sure their game couldn't be taken from them again.
Of course, benevolent neglect isn't a lot better, but dealing with reality will always get you further than inaccurate hypotheses...
Hey Jon? I always thought that the sequence went something like this -
- Cryptic is founded - begins developing City of Heroes
- Cryptic needs publisher/money - partners with (is NOT actually bought by) NCSoft
- City of Heroes released
- Cryptic/NCSoft gets sued by Marvel
- Lawsuit dismissed
- Somehow or another, Marvel changes from adversary to negotiating with Cryptic to make them their own MMO. (Not exactly certain on this)
- Cryptic realizes they don't have enough capital/resources even with NCSoft to do the Marvel Game
- Sells City of Heroes and leases engine to NCSoft
- Many of the core Devs for City of Heroes under Cryptic jump ship and go to work at NCSoft Norcal, which is shortly thereafter renamed Paragon Studios.
- Cryptic is bought by Atari
- Cryptic continues working on Marvel MMO - then MS and then Marvel pull out of the deal.
- Crpytic buys IP from Hero games, leases IP back, re-purposes MMO into Champions Online
- Champions Online Launched
- Cryptic Acquires Star Trek Licence, begins developing STO
- STO Launched
- Neverwinter Nights announced, begins development
- Atari flounders financially, announces Cryptic for sale
- Cryptic bought by PWE
- NCSoft Closes Paragon Studios, 3 months later closes City of Heroes.
And here we are.
Readily I'll admit the above may not be correct. But initially that's how I'm remembering it. Can you fill in the holes or shuffle it around to explain things?
And where did you get your info? Again - not accusing, just haven't done the research myself and just trying to understand.
One reason I'd VERY much like to know - I'm interested in helping the Titan people in their campaign to convince NCsoft to sell the COH IP. Any informational ammunition or background data we can get on the dealings of NCSoft would be helpful.
(Edit: Oops. I think I got scooped above while I was composing. I think I'll let stand what I wrote. And ask if anyone else wants to chime in as well to clarify.)
Readily I'll admit the above may not be correct. But initially that's how I'm remembering it. Can you fill in the holes or shuffle it around to explain things?
You left out CoV which was an "expanshalone" to CoH.
I got my info from Tumer, who was explaining (sometime last year, I think?) why all the files used "FightClub" in the naming convention. (They started work on the new game before NCSoft fired them; in order to make sure they didn't have to sign a non-compete agreement, they did not talk about their new game where NCSoft could hear. What's the first rule of Fight Club?)
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
WHAT?!?! How can you...how can you say that?!?! I mean...they...well...I mean...yeah they brought nothing to the table. I mean I would have almost considered them Content if they had mission that let you earn one without having to pay for them.
Vehicles= Depressing waist of limited resources. They could have easilly been Awesome and worth, but I wont go into that here since there are enough threads covering that.
To me, this is the key issue. Champions has great potential. As a new player coming to the game, there is quite a bit to enjoy, and a lot to do. The newer content is definitely "better" than the older content (Aftershock vs Serpent Lantern) in terms of visuals, gameplay, creativity, and just plain fun factor. So I can see that I like where the game is headed from a very high level.
This potential is, I believe and smarter folks than me have said the same, why some people get so emotional about the game. Including so negative. They love it, they have invested a lot of time into it, and they see what it could be.
Because of this the negativity washes right off my back. I don't see too many trolls here, I see people who have a game they love that they want to see succeed and are upset that it's not succeeding. Negative or positive that commitment to the game is why I like it here (and in STO) and not over in Star Wars where there really are trolls. A lot of them.
I'll ride a game out through rough patches. The trail isn't always downhill at a gentle slope through meadows with a nice breeze.
To me, this is the key issue. Champions has great potential. As a new player coming to the game, there is quite a bit to enjoy, and a lot to do. The newer content is definitely "better" than the older content (Aftershock vs Serpent Lantern) in terms of visuals, gameplay, creativity, and just plain fun factor. So I can see that I like where the game is headed from a very high level.
This potential is, I believe and smarter folks than me have said the same, why some people get so emotional about the game. Including so negative. They love it, they have invested a lot of time into it, and they see what it could be.
Because of this the negativity washes right off my back. I don't see too many trolls here, I see people who have a game they love that they want to see succeed and are upset that it's not succeeding. Negative or positive that commitment to the game is why I like it here (and in STO) and not over in Star Wars where there really are trolls. A lot of them.
I'll ride a game out through rough patches. The trail isn't always downhill at a gentle slope through meadows with a nice breeze.
I am happy that our frustraition do not hender your enjoyment of the game, that is not something I want to happen to anyone, which is why I try my best to not be a Troll and make things personal.
Potential is a word that has been used for this game for three years and i am starting to hate that word,
I really do hope that things pick up for this game, I truely do. Maybe i will have to ask Santa for more developers and designers for CO.
- Cryptic is founded - begins developing City of Heroes
- Cryptic needs publisher/money - partners with (is NOT actually bought by) NCSoft - Cryptic had another vision and design idea in mind for City of Heroes, but NCSoft didn't want that, they wanted something that was more akin to other MMOs, so the final product is not what was demo'd ages ago in what was finally delivered. This marks the beginning of NCSoft's increasing stranglehold on City of property. - City of Heroes released
- Cryptic/NCSoft gets sued by Marvel
- Lawsuit dismissed - Lawsuit was dismissed after evidence came to light that it was found Marvel employees were creating their own characters on the CoH servers. It was settled out of court. - City of Villains released but sales of the product are less than stellar.
- Somehow or another, Marvel changes from adversary to negotiating with Cryptic to make them their own MMO. (Not exactly certain on this) - It is an ironic twist here, considering Marvel wanted into the MMO market, and saw how successful, relatively speaking, CoH was and how popular it could be. However, the game required massive restrictions, IE no personal character development and only able to choose licensed Marvel character types. IE, you had to be Hulk, Spider Man or Wolverine, you couldn't create your own unique Marvel character.
- Cryptic realizes they don't have enough capital/resources even with NCSoft to do the Marvel Game - Partially, though I don't think this is the whole answer. Explained in next part.
- Sells City of Heroes and leases engine to NCSoft - From what I understand, though financial issues might have been part of the reason, another reason was that NCSoft was ever tightening their grip on City of Heroes. From sources I've heard NCSoft wanted full control of the product instead of just being a publisher. Cryptic, again from what I understood, was getting tired of constantly being strangled on their development budget for City of Heroes, and since they wanted to expand their development company, decided selling would be the best option.
- Many of the core Devs for City of Heroes under Cryptic jump ship and go to work at NCSoft Norcal, which is shortly thereafter renamed Paragon Studios. - There weren't many core devs on City of Heroes left when Cryptic sold City of Heroes. Last count I remember there were a grand total of 7 developers that were on the project since at least issue 7, so when the sell announcement came there weren't many that "jumped ship" as much as stayed with the project they loved working on and were familiar with. Several of them were new hires, and were later fired. I know BaB and Castle were among the victims of that purge. In other news, the reason that NCSoft NorCal was renamed Paragon Studios is NCSoft wanted to cut themselves off due to the lawsuit between them and Richard Garriot and tabula Rasa in general. In short, they wanted to cover their asses to keep a second Tabula Rasa from happening.
- Cryptic is bought by Atari
- Cryptic continues working on Marvel MMO - then MS and then Marvel pull out of the deal. - From my understanding of this, Marvel and Microsoft were having issues (read: bickering) over how the final product would be handled, such as Microsoft wanted a chunk of change for their XBox Live market and Marvel wanted a chunk of change for their licensed property. This market strangle-hold practice from Microsoft is what eventually led to the termination of porting Champions over to the console. Also, Marvel pulled out first, and Cryptic continued to try and negotiate with Microsoft, but I already stated why that didn't happen.
- Cryptic buys IP from Hero games, leases IP back, re-purposes MMO into Champions Online - I don't think they leased it back so much as get a percentage of the revenue. I think they continued to leave Hero Games full use of the property. Furthermore, they bought all of the Champions IP, which includes Dark Champions. - Bill Roper is hired as Lead Developer for Champions Online.
- Champions Online Launched
- Cryptic Acquires Star Trek Licence, begins developing STO - This one was very shadey, from my understanding. When Perpetual Entertainment folded, they had already burnt through 3 of their 5 year development process that they were given from CBS. Of course I think Cryptic was feeling a tad bold at this point, and said they could fully develop a game in the time that was left, as CBS refused to renegotiate the actual deal to give them more development time. Needless to say, I think STO's development humbled Cryptic a bit because they weren't able to deliver on half of the promises made during their development, hence Neverwinter's actual development time being a lot longer. - Vibora Bay files discovered. Later announced. Former CSR, Daeke, makes the statement that Vibora Bay might be paid for expansion. Community explodes in outrage claiming that it is unfair. Truth of the matter will never be known though Cryptic states that Vibora Bay was never intended to be paid for and was going to be a free expansion.
- STO Launched - Vibora Bay is launched, free to everyone as was told. Community still grumbles about having to pay for updates, despite there was no pay option. - Bill Roper is promoted to Creative Director of Cryptic. Soon after, Bill Roper resigns from Cryptic. - Several new Adventure Packs are released, beginning with Serpents Lantern.
- Neverwinter Nights announced, begins development - City of Heroes: Going Rogue announced - Champions: Free for All announced
- Champions: Free for All launched - Adventure Packs are downsized into Comic Series
- Atari flounders financially, announces Cryptic for sale - City of Heroes: Going Rogue launches to less than stellar sales.
- Cryptic bought by PWE - City of Heroes announces Freedom - Last Comic Series: Whiteout, released - Champions: On Alert released
- NCSoft Closes Paragon Studios, 3 months later closes City of Heroes.
Additional comments are in red in the quote block. Needless to say, there are a few things that happened that aren't in the lime light. Of course, some people put blame wrongly in certain places. There are a few more tidbits in there that I think are significant, though. A lot of issues I think can fall squarely back on the player shoulders of Champions as well, considering every time something new is attempted, the players snap at Cryptic, even for something they wanted. The result is less income to the game as a whole, and less resources for development.
Additional comments are in red in the quote block. Needless to say, there are a few things that happened that aren't in the lime light. Of course, some people put blame wrongly in certain places. There are a few more tidbits in there that I think are significant, though. A lot of issues I think can fall squarely back on the player shoulders of Champions as well, considering every time something new is attempted, the players snap at Cryptic, even for something they wanted. The result is less income to the game as a whole, and less resources for development.
Personally I'm fine with them trying new things . . . as long as they aren't half assed.
What I'm not fine with is the constant re-re-re revamps.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
- Cryptic had another vision and design idea in mind for City of Heroes, but NCSoft didn't want that, they wanted something that was more akin to other MMOs, so the final product is not what was demo'd ages ago in what was finally delivered. This marks the beginning of NCSoft's increasing stranglehold on City of property.
I'm not so sure I really buy that. First, when this was in development, there really weren't a lot of other MMOs out there to be like, and the final product wasn't really like what was there. And yes, I know what was demo'd wasn't delivered, but I took that as a continuing issue from the start...Jack has great ideas he has no idea how to implement. It might be true if what NCSoft wanted was something workable that could be played.
I'm not so sure I really buy that. First, when this was in development, there really weren't a lot of other MMOs out there to be like, and the final product wasn't really like what was there. And yes, I know what was demo'd wasn't delivered, but I took that as a continuing issue from the start...Jack has great ideas he has no idea how to implement. It might be true if what NCSoft wanted was something workable that could be played.
Actually there were several. The big hitters on the market, at the time, were Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot. City of Heroes, launched before WoW, so this was before the "everyone's trying to be like WoW" syndrome, since WoW was basically Everquest with War-craft theme (wow, I can't say War Craft here?)
Not to mention that NCSoft had several titles of their own, including Lineage, and I believe had acquired Richard Garriot who was using his character likeness in their Lineage game in an attempt to attract the western market, though the image delivered was laughable, at best.
"Less than stellar?" It was the single largest spike in all of CoH history!
Sorry, but a momentary spike does not equal spectacular sales, especially if the spike was brief and only happened for a short period of time. In fact, box sales are the contribution there, as I believe even Cryptic stated their actual player base did not go up much, if at all, during this time. Take a look at that chart, you see a brief spike then a significant fall off. That's not spectacular.
Actually there were several. The big hitters on the market, at the time, were Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot. City of Heroes, launched before WoW, so this was before the "everyone's trying to be like WoW" syndrome, since WoW was basically Everquest with War-craft theme (wow, I can't say War Craft here?)
Not to mention that NCSoft had several titles of their own, including Lineage, and I believe had acquired Richard Garriot who was using his character likeness in their Lineage game in an attempt to attract the western market, though the image delivered was laughable, at best.
Sorry, but a momentary spike does not equal spectacular sales, especially if the spike was brief and only happened for a short period of time. In fact, box sales are the contribution there, as I believe even Cryptic stated their actual player base did not go up much, if at all, during this time. take a look at that chart, you see a brief spike then a significant fall off. That's not spectacular.
Pretty much everything said here. As someone who lived through what happened to the developer resources on COH AFTER COV released, I can tell you that it was NOT considered a success in any way shape or form by NCSOFT.
In fact COV is one of the reasons that there were lingering problems for years with COH:
-split auction houses and currencies, eventually lead to the devs having to unify the currency years AFTER COV came out. (and the economy on COV never really caught up all that much)
-problem with being able to keep up content for both sides, eventually lead to the devs giving up and just making most content (including ENDGAME/Incarnate system) co-op.
-the various pvp issues. won't even get into that as I could write a book. And also lead to COV being a ghost town even more when side switching came about finally in the last few years of the game's life.
COV was a great idea, but caused MANY issues that STILL weren't fully resolved by the time COH shut down. Even AFTER years of them trying various ways to unify both games. By any definition COV was not a spectacular success
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Additional comments are in red in the quote block. Needless to say, there are a few things that happened that aren't in the lime light. Of course, some people put blame wrongly in certain places. There are a few more tidbits in there that I think are significant, though. A lot of issues I think can fall squarely back on the player shoulders of Champions as well, considering every time something new is attempted, the players snap at Cryptic, even for something they wanted. The result is less income to the game as a whole, and less resources for development.
Nice run down. I would like to add a little clarification though, in no particular order...
Daeke posted that "Vibora Bay will be Champions Online's first paid expansion". There was no 'might' about it. I really think that one word, 'will', is what really rocked the boat...
I am wondering what you mean by Vibora Bay files 'discovered'. I'm pretty sure I remember devs stating that VB was in development well prior to launch...
According to Hero Games, Cryptic did indeed fully purchase the Champions IP and then leased it back to Hero Games. I've not heard of any profit sharing plan until you mentioned it here...
And, yeah, Cryptic was seriously cocky regarding STO. They had stated a number of times in the past that the new Cryptic engine was so flexible that it could be used to produce an entirely new MMO in a much shorter development time. I think they even mentioned two years...
But I really don't remember the actual quality of said MMOs ever being discussed...
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Sorry, but a momentary spike does not equal spectacular sales
Really? Was that money just spontaneously created by itself? The fact that it was the highest ever revenue point means that something sold ridiculously well at that point. Even if it was just a box sale, it was still a sale and it did incredibly well.
What you're confusing with sales is that it didn't retain subscriptions.
Nice run down. I would like to add a little clarification though, in no particular order...
Daeke posted that "Vibora Bay will be Champions Online's first paid expansion". There was no 'might' about it. I really think that one word, 'will', is what really rocked the boat...
I am wondering what you mean by Vibora Bay files 'discovered'. I'm pretty sure I remember devs stating that VB was in development well prior to launch...
According to Hero Games, Cryptic did indeed fully purchase the Champions IP and then leased it back to Hero Games. I've not heard of any profit sharing plan until you mentioned it here...
And, yeah, Cryptic was seriously cocky regarding STO. They had stated a number of times in the past that the new Cryptic engine was so flexible that it could be used to produce an entirely new MMO in a much shorter development time. I think they even mentioned two years...
But I really don't remember the actual quality of said MMOs ever being discussed...
I LOL'd at the bolded.
Yeah until the ****storm on the forums VB was most definetly going to a paid expansion.
There was no might about it.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Really? Was that money just spontaneously created by itself? The fact that it was the highest ever revenue point means that something sold ridiculously well at that point. Even if it was just a box sale, it was still a sale and it did incredibly well.
What you're confusing with sales is that it didn't retain subscriptions.
The point of releasing COV was to trying and GET AND RETAIN more subs. A large part of COV's release was adding and expanding additional systems to meet that goal, including all new archtypes.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
I am wondering what you mean by Vibora Bay files 'discovered'. I'm pretty sure I remember devs stating that VB was in development well prior to launch..
To answer this question, they were discovered by a couple of people diving through the hogg files on test. In fact, back then you could actually see files that were being patched in through the patcher, so many people started noticing these new file names. It was being discussed frequently on the forums, but the threads were being deleted.
One poster posted a secret video showing off the Vibora Bay zone, but it was only shown to a select few people. A lot of us knew what was coming but didn't say anything publicly, just hinted at it.
The point of releasing COV was to trying and GET AND RETAIN more subs. A large part of COV's release was adding and expanding additional systems to meet that goal, including all new archtypes.
Actually there were several. The big hitters on the market, at the time, were Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot. City of Heroes, launched before WoW, so this was before the "everyone's trying to be like WoW" syndrome, since WoW was basically Everquest with War-craft theme (wow, I can't say War Craft here?)
You say "several", I say "handful". The point being that the market was still in its infancy. What was changed to make CoH more like you mentioned, that can't easily be explained by lots of things they reported as "just couldn't get working"?
Not to mention that NCSoft had several titles of their own, including Lineage, and I believe had acquired Richard Garriot who was using his character likeness in their Lineage game in an attempt to attract the western market, though the image delivered was laughable, at best.
Heh, well, yes, the less said about that clusterf...er, mess the better.
Sorry, but a momentary spike does not equal spectacular sales, especially if the spike was brief and only happened for a short period of time. In fact, box sales are the contribution there, as I believe even Cryptic stated their actual player base did not go up much, if at all, during this time. Take a look at that chart, you see a brief spike then a significant fall off. That's not spectacular.
Who said anything about "spectacular" (I admit to not reading every post)? You said "less than stellar". That phrase's connotation is usually worse than the literal, meaning "poor" rather than "less than the best". Certainly it did better than that.
A spectacular selling trend wouldn't be a short lived spike, actually. You would see the games revenue jump and maybe fall off a bit. You wouldn't see the revenue jump, then fall back to the exact same point less than a quarter later.
A spectacular selling trend wouldn't be a short lived spike, actually. You would see the games revenue jump and maybe fall off a bit. You wouldn't see the revenue jump, then fall back to the exact same point less than a quarter later.
Who said anything about "spectacular" (I admit to not reading every post)? You said "less than stellar". That phrase's connotation is usually worse than the literal, meaning "poor" rather than "less than the best". Certainly it did better than that.
Who said anything about "spectacular" (I admit to not reading every post)? You said "less than stellar". That phrase's connotation is usually worse than the literal, meaning "poor" rather than "less than the best". Certainly it did better than that.
Well, from what I recall from Cryptic mentioning personally, I think the sales of Villains didn't last but a few days to a week, so the spike in the quarter is misleading, especially, again, as you notice, the actual revenue stream went back to almost the exact same from the quarter before the spike. Furthermore, you will note that even though there was a brief increase in subscribers during the Villain spike, that number fell back down after the free month time was up to.
And to already answer while you are trying to fight semantics on it, again, your chart is misleading, since you can see the quarter after it did exactly didley for the game as a whole. Furthermore, that's a revenue chart... revenue chart is not profit, as I tried to explain to people before on a certain other similar situation that came up. The revenue chart doesn't show how much it cost to develop City of Villains and how much was actually made in the process.
Well, from what I recall from Cryptic mentioning personally, I think the sales of Villains didn't last but a few days to a week,
Of course you're going to provide evidence for that, and either way you stroke it, it's still a very high point in revenue. "Less then stellar" fits more in line with Going Rogue.
Furthermore, that's a revenue chart... revenue chart is not profit, as I tried to explain to people before on a certain other similar situation that came up. The revenue chart doesn't show how much it cost to develop City of Villains and how much was actually made in the process.
Well, from what I recall from Cryptic mentioning personally, I think the sales of Villains didn't last but a few days to a week, so the spike in the quarter is misleading, especially, again, as you notice, the actual revenue stream went back to almost the exact same from the quarter before the spike. Furthermore, you will note that even though there was a brief increase in subscribers during the Villain spike, that number fell back down after the free month time was up to.
Oh, sure, but as mentioned, they did get the money from the box sales. It looked like you thought people were saying "OMG SPECTACULAR COV SAVED COH!" or something.
Sigh...City of Villains was such a creative failure it's hard to point fingers. A reskinned City of Heroes just wasn't going to work, and that's what we got.
Of course you're going to provide evidence for that, and either way you stroke it, it's still a very high point in revenue. "Less then stellar" fits more in line with Going Rogue.
Revenue is not profit. Example, if you spent $500 dollars on something and turned around and sold it for $550 dollars, yea, your revenue was $550 dollars, but you only made $50 dollars profit.
Actually, it's not moving the goal post, it's pointing out the error in your logic of the matter. You are pointing at revenue. Revenue is one thing but companies only care about profits.
Revenue is not profit. Example, if you spent $500 dollars on something and turned around and sold it for $550 dollars, yea, your revenue was $550 dollars, but you only made $50 dollars profit.
Actually, it's not moving the goal post, it's pointing out the error in your logic of the matter. You are pointing at revenue. Revenue is one thing but companies only care about profits.
Actually it is. You said "SOLD." You didn't say crap about "profit."
Comments
I see what you did there, funny...now back to reading the rest of the thread.
They do pay attention in the PTS threads, because they have made changes based on suggestions there, but here nothing.
It sucks, but it is what we are stuck with.
As I always say, I would love to be proven wrong, i just haven't yet.
Of course, benevolent neglect isn't a lot better, but dealing with reality will always get you further than inaccurate hypotheses...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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It pains me to think of what CO would be like if they had put that effort into CO.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Add up the total amount of Zen on the CO exchange and then do the same on the STO exchange. Remember both sell and buy tabs.
Last night there were 96 instances of the Winter Wonderland.
Than my mistake, I heard something different, although you are right just ignoring the game doesn't help. Point being though NCsoft kicking them to the curve was best for that game in the long run. I feel that they should go and give the game to someone else who will show it more love than they are showing right now. If they are not going to put the manpower to make this a better game than sale the game to someone else.
I agree to this. I want someone running this game that will give it the time and manpower it deserves.
The reason there is negativity is because people's concerns are NOT being addressed, or even so much as acknowledged. Not just once or twice or a few times, but over and over and OVER.
As far as anyone casually reading these forums might be able to tell, this game HAS NO DEV TEAM. Even trailturtle's posts seem to be limited to just release notes and a once-in-a-blue-moon random comment, and never with any REAL information on the future direction of the game.
If this isn't the hallmark of a game that is ALREADY in "maintenance mode" with no further development, I don't know what is.
And in my opinion (wait for it...) VEHICLES ARE NOT CONTENT.
Target1one
"ENOUGH!!! You are ALL of you BENEATH me! I am a GOD, you dull creature, and I will NOT be BULLIED by--" -- Loki
*SMASH* *SMASH* *SMASH* <pause> *SMASHSMASH* "... puny god..." -- Hulk
WHAT?!?! How can you...how can you say that?!?! I mean...they...well...I mean...yeah they brought nothing to the table. I mean I would have almost considered them Content if they had mission that let you earn one without having to pay for them.
Vehicles= Depressing waist of limited resources. They could have easilly been Awesome and worth, but I wont go into that here since there are enough threads covering that.
if there is still any life in, so you shake her first and then start to slap in her face, just to look
if you can maybe get some signs of life out of her.
However .. the CO Team seems to be soooo dead .. heck i think its even over 6 months that
we got a new costume, and even if that is no real content, that was the thing that i would call
the nearest thing to content we've got.
And no .. vehicles are no content for me, especially since we are not in STO here.
The information you are providing here is incorrect. CoH was a 50/50 split ownership between Cryptic and NCSoft. When it was announced that Cryptic would be developing another MMO with the Marvel license, they sold their stake in CoH to prevent conflict of interest.
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/2614-City-of-Heroes-Sold-WarCrys-Interview-with-NCsofts-Brian-Clayton
...by making it out of all but one of the Cryptic staff working on CoX. If one didn't know better, one might think they were firing Jack personally. :biggrin:
EDIT: Or, of course, the much more plausible answer one post up.
Hey Jon? I always thought that the sequence went something like this -
- Cryptic is founded - begins developing City of Heroes
- Cryptic needs publisher/money - partners with (is NOT actually bought by) NCSoft
- City of Heroes released
- Cryptic/NCSoft gets sued by Marvel
- Lawsuit dismissed
- Somehow or another, Marvel changes from adversary to negotiating with Cryptic to make them their own MMO. (Not exactly certain on this)
- Cryptic realizes they don't have enough capital/resources even with NCSoft to do the Marvel Game
- Sells City of Heroes and leases engine to NCSoft
- Many of the core Devs for City of Heroes under Cryptic jump ship and go to work at NCSoft Norcal, which is shortly thereafter renamed Paragon Studios.
- Cryptic is bought by Atari
- Cryptic continues working on Marvel MMO - then MS and then Marvel pull out of the deal.
- Crpytic buys IP from Hero games, leases IP back, re-purposes MMO into Champions Online
- Champions Online Launched
- Cryptic Acquires Star Trek Licence, begins developing STO
- STO Launched
- Neverwinter Nights announced, begins development
- Atari flounders financially, announces Cryptic for sale
- Cryptic bought by PWE
- NCSoft Closes Paragon Studios, 3 months later closes City of Heroes.
And here we are.
Readily I'll admit the above may not be correct. But initially that's how I'm remembering it. Can you fill in the holes or shuffle it around to explain things?
And where did you get your info? Again - not accusing, just haven't done the research myself and just trying to understand.
One reason I'd VERY much like to know - I'm interested in helping the Titan people in their campaign to convince NCsoft to sell the COH IP. Any informational ammunition or background data we can get on the dealings of NCSoft would be helpful.
(Edit: Oops. I think I got scooped above while I was composing. I think I'll let stand what I wrote. And ask if anyone else wants to chime in as well to clarify.)
You left out CoV which was an "expanshalone" to CoH.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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To me, this is the key issue. Champions has great potential. As a new player coming to the game, there is quite a bit to enjoy, and a lot to do. The newer content is definitely "better" than the older content (Aftershock vs Serpent Lantern) in terms of visuals, gameplay, creativity, and just plain fun factor. So I can see that I like where the game is headed from a very high level.
This potential is, I believe and smarter folks than me have said the same, why some people get so emotional about the game. Including so negative. They love it, they have invested a lot of time into it, and they see what it could be.
Because of this the negativity washes right off my back. I don't see too many trolls here, I see people who have a game they love that they want to see succeed and are upset that it's not succeeding. Negative or positive that commitment to the game is why I like it here (and in STO) and not over in Star Wars where there really are trolls. A lot of them.
I'll ride a game out through rough patches. The trail isn't always downhill at a gentle slope through meadows with a nice breeze.
I am happy that our frustraition do not hender your enjoyment of the game, that is not something I want to happen to anyone, which is why I try my best to not be a Troll and make things personal.
Potential is a word that has been used for this game for three years and i am starting to hate that word,
I really do hope that things pick up for this game, I truely do. Maybe i will have to ask Santa for more developers and designers for CO.
Stuffy on the old CO forums. PWE ate my username.
Additional comments are in red in the quote block. Needless to say, there are a few things that happened that aren't in the lime light. Of course, some people put blame wrongly in certain places. There are a few more tidbits in there that I think are significant, though. A lot of issues I think can fall squarely back on the player shoulders of Champions as well, considering every time something new is attempted, the players snap at Cryptic, even for something they wanted. The result is less income to the game as a whole, and less resources for development.
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Personally I'm fine with them trying new things . . . as long as they aren't half assed.
What I'm not fine with is the constant re-re-re revamps.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
"Less than stellar?" It was the single largest spike in all of CoH history!
I'm not so sure I really buy that. First, when this was in development, there really weren't a lot of other MMOs out there to be like, and the final product wasn't really like what was there. And yes, I know what was demo'd wasn't delivered, but I took that as a continuing issue from the start...Jack has great ideas he has no idea how to implement. It might be true if what NCSoft wanted was something workable that could be played.
Actually there were several. The big hitters on the market, at the time, were Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot. City of Heroes, launched before WoW, so this was before the "everyone's trying to be like WoW" syndrome, since WoW was basically Everquest with War-craft theme
Not to mention that NCSoft had several titles of their own, including Lineage, and I believe had acquired Richard Garriot who was using his character likeness in their Lineage game in an attempt to attract the western market, though the image delivered was laughable, at best.
Sorry, but a momentary spike does not equal spectacular sales, especially if the spike was brief and only happened for a short period of time. In fact, box sales are the contribution there, as I believe even Cryptic stated their actual player base did not go up much, if at all, during this time. Take a look at that chart, you see a brief spike then a significant fall off. That's not spectacular.
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Pretty much everything said here. As someone who lived through what happened to the developer resources on COH AFTER COV released, I can tell you that it was NOT considered a success in any way shape or form by NCSOFT.
In fact COV is one of the reasons that there were lingering problems for years with COH:
-split auction houses and currencies, eventually lead to the devs having to unify the currency years AFTER COV came out. (and the economy on COV never really caught up all that much)
-problem with being able to keep up content for both sides, eventually lead to the devs giving up and just making most content (including ENDGAME/Incarnate system) co-op.
-the various pvp issues. won't even get into that as I could write a book. And also lead to COV being a ghost town even more when side switching came about finally in the last few years of the game's life.
COV was a great idea, but caused MANY issues that STILL weren't fully resolved by the time COH shut down. Even AFTER years of them trying various ways to unify both games. By any definition COV was not a spectacular success
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Nice run down. I would like to add a little clarification though, in no particular order...
Daeke posted that "Vibora Bay will be Champions Online's first paid expansion". There was no 'might' about it. I really think that one word, 'will', is what really rocked the boat...
I am wondering what you mean by Vibora Bay files 'discovered'. I'm pretty sure I remember devs stating that VB was in development well prior to launch...
According to Hero Games, Cryptic did indeed fully purchase the Champions IP and then leased it back to Hero Games. I've not heard of any profit sharing plan until you mentioned it here...
And, yeah, Cryptic was seriously cocky regarding STO. They had stated a number of times in the past that the new Cryptic engine was so flexible that it could be used to produce an entirely new MMO in a much shorter development time. I think they even mentioned two years...
But I really don't remember the actual quality of said MMOs ever being discussed...
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
Really? Was that money just spontaneously created by itself? The fact that it was the highest ever revenue point means that something sold ridiculously well at that point. Even if it was just a box sale, it was still a sale and it did incredibly well.
What you're confusing with sales is that it didn't retain subscriptions.
I LOL'd at the bolded.
Yeah until the ****storm on the forums VB was most definetly going to a paid expansion.
There was no might about it.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
The point of releasing COV was to trying and GET AND RETAIN more subs. A large part of COV's release was adding and expanding additional systems to meet that goal, including all new archtypes.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
To answer this question, they were discovered by a couple of people diving through the hogg files on test. In fact, back then you could actually see files that were being patched in through the patcher, so many people started noticing these new file names. It was being discussed frequently on the forums, but the threads were being deleted.
One poster posted a secret video showing off the Vibora Bay zone, but it was only shown to a select few people. A lot of us knew what was coming but didn't say anything publicly, just hinted at it.
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That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing sales.
Ahhh. Carry on then.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
You say "several", I say "handful". The point being that the market was still in its infancy. What was changed to make CoH more like you mentioned, that can't easily be explained by lots of things they reported as "just couldn't get working"?
Heh, well, yes, the less said about that clusterf...er, mess the better.
Who said anything about "spectacular" (I admit to not reading every post)? You said "less than stellar". That phrase's connotation is usually worse than the literal, meaning "poor" rather than "less than the best". Certainly it did better than that.
A spectacular selling trend wouldn't be a short lived spike, actually. You would see the games revenue jump and maybe fall off a bit. You wouldn't see the revenue jump, then fall back to the exact same point less than a quarter later.
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To quote Decorum:
Well, from what I recall from Cryptic mentioning personally, I think the sales of Villains didn't last but a few days to a week, so the spike in the quarter is misleading, especially, again, as you notice, the actual revenue stream went back to almost the exact same from the quarter before the spike. Furthermore, you will note that even though there was a brief increase in subscribers during the Villain spike, that number fell back down after the free month time was up to.
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And to already answer while you are trying to fight semantics on it, again, your chart is misleading, since you can see the quarter after it did exactly didley for the game as a whole. Furthermore, that's a revenue chart... revenue chart is not profit, as I tried to explain to people before on a certain other similar situation that came up. The revenue chart doesn't show how much it cost to develop City of Villains and how much was actually made in the process.
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Of course you're going to provide evidence for that, and either way you stroke it, it's still a very high point in revenue. "Less then stellar" fits more in line with Going Rogue.
Moving the goalpost.....
Oh, sure, but as mentioned, they did get the money from the box sales. It looked like you thought people were saying "OMG SPECTACULAR COV SAVED COH!" or something.
Sigh...City of Villains was such a creative failure it's hard to point fingers. A reskinned City of Heroes just wasn't going to work, and that's what we got.
Revenue is not profit. Example, if you spent $500 dollars on something and turned around and sold it for $550 dollars, yea, your revenue was $550 dollars, but you only made $50 dollars profit.
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Actually, it's not moving the goal post, it's pointing out the error in your logic of the matter. You are pointing at revenue. Revenue is one thing but companies only care about profits.
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See:
:rolleyes:
Actually it is. You said "SOLD." You didn't say crap about "profit."
Yes, because an expected selling margin to make a sizable profit has nothing at all to do with whether the sells were stellar or not. :rolleyes:
Seriously, you say I am moving the goal post, you are just trying to ignore it.
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I rate the off-topic-ness... Less Than Stellar!