Regardless of how many people buy FF slots at the listed price of $50, and how many people on the boards plow on with the argument that $50 for a FF slot is somehow a good price when compared to the price of paying a montly sub my feeling on the current price of FF slots is and shall always be, the same as what one guy posted in LoTRO board in regards to the item that inspired this article:
Exactly^
The argument has no merit since a lot of video games aren't even worth $50 since you can complete them in a fraction of the time these days. As pointed out you don't even have to pay money, just time, to get a freeform slot, and you have multiple avenues, including just playing the game to get it. The fact its number 1 ahead of things like pay for your basic UI features for SWTOR, a $25 horse, a $68 monocle, and other such features is laughable and how people don't bother looking at anything else. This isn't just defense of the game, this is just common sense that is actually being blatantly ignored, considering to get the same features, at severely reduced rate if you want to use the have to pay from the store, you would have to pay more than $50 and still wouldn't have a freeform character.
LOTRO also lets you earn Turbine Points through in-game activities.
But, realistically, the amount of time used to make a serious dent in a $50 purchase is... pretty negligable.
You'd be better off earning money from ... anything (selling a couch, I don't know... anything). Take a lot less time and effort.
Arguably it may be incomplete, but blatant misinformation is a great exaggeration.
It's negligable only if the player decides it to be negligable.
Let's consider the current most effecient way to earn questionite: Alert dailies. Each day a single hero on a player account is able to obtain 2000 questionite from the daily reward. In a full week that amounts to 14,000. The current questionite exchange rate is on average 200 questionite per ZEN so that's an earning of 70 ZEN per week per hero.
Note that 70 ZEN per week is for a single hero. There's no limit to how many alts you can have to get the 2000 questionite reward each from dailies. I could have let's say 5 heroes each doing the daily and in a week I'll get 350 ZEN. Spend another week doing such and it amounts up to 700 ZEN. In a month that's 1400 ZEN. According to the current prices for ZEN purchase, 1400 ZEN is equivalent to $14 (not including VAT). That's a near 30% discount if a Freeform slot is being considered for pruchase and that's far from negligable.
Also, this is just from doing the dailies. I haven't taken to account other means of getting questionite, like from APs/Comic series, or a dedicated NemCon questionite farm run, and that each individual hero has a questionite refinement limit of 8000, not the player account as a whole.
The only trade-off is that it takes a rather extensive amount of time to get that 1400 ZEN discount, but the point remains that the opportunity to reduce the cost of a Freeform slot is always there for the taking. Also I realize that the questionite exchange rate can change at any time, but it seems that current rate has remained at around 200 questionite per ZEN for quite some time now and it doesn't look to change any time soon.
So back to my original point: The article doesn't address all of these factors regarding the relationship between questionite, ZEN and actual money along with relationship between questionite and game mechanics, and a lot of information has been left out for it to be serious misinformation.
And my point is that if it takes you grindy extensive time and effectively making a small fraction of minimum wage to pay some of the cost of that $50... it's not that significant an option.
I mean, if you enjoy farming alerts across 10 characters for a few hours a day so that you can effectively earn 30 cents an hour, then great -- you are effectively earning money for something you enjoy.
Or, to sum up -- yes, the article glosses over a factor, but I have serious doubts for the vast majority of people that factor is SO significant that it completely invalidates the article.
It's also not unique to Champions Online, and isn't unique to Freeform slot -- it's something built into the cash shop overall. He also doesn't mention the zen surveys and all the other fiddly ways you can try to squeeze out some points -- it doesn't change the fact that the amount of zen and effective cash (from WHEREVER it came from) is $50.
It's still $50 even if someone gave me a gift card, or I had birthday money, or... whatever.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Except it extends further when it comes to digital goods as the cost of producing the actual "item" in question is practically non-existent, meaning that once you've made back R&D costs you're pulling in what is nearly pure profit.
I don't agree with the conclusions Jon Sills draws here (Not Beeg Sooprise), and instead I present this; VALVe abuses this concept regularly with their steam sales, by dropping items to astronomically low prices in order to rake in a market that they wouldn't be getting money from normally. Because the R&D is payed off by this point, there is little to no downside to pricing things at an extremely accessible level once you've made your initial investment back and maxed out most of the profits you can make off early investors and impulse buyers.
If it seemed crazy they'd sell Left 4 Dead 2 for... I think it was 7 bucks? Well, it's not. It's actually quite brilliant.
Agreed.
The only downsides, if you can call them that, to going dirt cheap on your product under such circumstances is the possibility that you might have sold just as many units if you had set the price a tiny bit higher and the possibility that purchasers will hold off on buying the product if they have reason to expect it to go that low later.
Ultimately I wouldn't consider these to be downsides because of the less measurable benefits of customer loyalty over the long term that can be gained through this sort of program.
it doesn't change the fact that the amount of zen and effective cash (from WHEREVER it came from) is $50.
In these circumstances Zen is not effectively cash (or do you know someplace where I can convert my many thousands of zen into USD without breaking any rules ?). Questionite earned in play is more like a coupon that reduces the price by a set amount (the set amount being the amount of Zen you can get for the Q that you have).
If you only have to pay $25 in cash for the FF slot, and Cryptic gives you a $25 credit/coupon for playing the game, you have not paid $50.
The argument has no merit since a lot of video games aren't even worth $50 since you can complete them in a fraction of the time these days.
By which logic your argument would have even less merit, since we're talking about a $50 option for a single toon in a game that's starving for content and can be "completed" (i.e. play most of its content) in a fraction of the time you can complete most MMOs.
As pointed out you don't even have to pay money, just time, to get a freeform slot, and you have multiple avenues, including just playing the game to get it.
And my point is that if it takes you grindy extensive time and effectively making a small fraction of minimum wage to pay some of the cost of that $50... it's not that significant an option.
I mean, if you enjoy farming alerts across 10 characters for a few hours a day so that you can effectively earn 30 cents an hour, then great -- you are effectively earning money for something you enjoy.
...and if you don't enjoy it, you might as well cough up the $50, cuz I sure as hell I'm not farming 30 Alerts with 10 characters a day just to save 30 cents/hour (approx.).
And someone, somewhere always has to pay, since Q isn't really free. It has to be exchanged for z-points to buy something from the store, and z-points always cost money to someone. So Cryptic still makes $50 out of those FF slots even if you personally are not paying them.
And someone, somewhere always has to pay, since Q isn't really free. It has to be exchanged for z-points to buy something from the store, and z-points always cost money to someone. So Cryptic still makes $50 out of those FF slots even if you personally are not paying them.
Wait, has the conversation changed from "Is $50 too expensive for Freeform" to "PWE shouldn't get $50 for Freeform?"
I think you're misdirecting things here. You're arguing against using Questionite to "discount" a Freeform slot just because PWE gets their money anyway.
People said $50 is too expensive. You can get it, literally, for $0, just time spent. Doesn't matter where the money comes from or who gets said money.
The argument has no merit since a lot of video games aren't even worth $50 since you can complete them in a fraction of the time these days.
(Not necessarily arguing with you, merely using your post as a springboard for my own thoughts.)
To address the price-for-content bit:
I have a family. For the local movie theater, the average price per ticket is $10 (accounting for the littles costing less and the adults/teens costing more). We would need to buy six tickets (one for myself, one for my beloved, four for my boys).
Assuming we ignore everything but the price of the movie tickets for this family outing, it costs us $60 for two~ hours of entertainment. Given that there are six of us, that $60 adds up to twelve~ hours of entertainment split among six people.
Can you complete the entirety of CO's content in twelve hours /played? Personally, I can't.
$60 is four months worth of subscription. Can you complete the entirety of CO's content within four months subscribed? Yes, I can (and have done so repeatedly).
Do you see the equivalency?
__________
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
I have a family. For the local movie theater, the average price per ticket is $10 (accounting for the littles costing less and the adults/teens costing more). We would need to buy six tickets (one for myself, one for my beloved, four for my boys).
Assuming we ignore everything but the price of the movie tickets for this family outing, it costs us $60 for two~ hours of entertainment. Given that there are six of us, that $60 adds up to twelve~ hours of entertainment split among six people.
Can you complete the entirety of CO's content in twelve hours /played? Personally, I can't.
$60 is four months worth of subscription. Can you complete the entirety of CO's content within four months subscribed? Yes, I can.
Do you see the equivalency?
This is why value is subjective. To you, going to movies with your family is worth all that money. Me? I hate being around people, and movie theaters are just awful. (Yeah I have a problem, that's immaterial, Your Honor!)
Some people say "$50 for a new game is way better than freeform!" Others say "I'd rather take my family to the movies!" Well, what about the people who'd rather spend that money on a video game that they love to play?
Completely subjective.
Basically, if your counter-argument to this is what you would personally like to do with your money, instead of what, factually, this service is worth, then you're not really making a very convincing argument.
Edit: Sorry, I think I'm agreeing with you... I'm not paying very much attention here. :P
Wait, has the conversation changed from "Is $50 too expensive for Freeform" to "PWE shouldn't get $50 for Freeform?"
I think you're misdirecting things here. You're arguing against using Questionite to "discount" a Freeform slot just because PWE gets their money anyway.
People said $50 is too expensive. You can get it, literally, for $0, just time spent. Doesn't matter where the money comes from or who gets said money.
No, I'm arguing that the fact that you can technically use Q to get z-points does not mean that FF slots do not essentially cost $50. They always cost $50 (or more specifically 5000 z, which have a net cost of $50 translated to real world US currency). So for purposes of the article that started this thread it is perfectly reasonable for the author to use the $50 rather than confuse people not familiar with the game by bringing up the Q-exchange, since that's the only figure a person not familiar with the game is likely to understand and FF slots still cost 5000 = $50 anyways.
Basically, if your counter-argument to this is what you would personally like to do with your money, instead of what, factually, this service is worth, then you're not really making a very convincing argument.
The Champions Online "gold subscriber" service is 'objectively worth' roughly $0.87~ USD per-month per-customer going by the current general and location-specific costs involved that are public knowledge and the other values which can be reasonably inferred about the remainder.
For comparison, the Champions Online "silver free-to-play" service is 'objectively worth' roughly $0.18~ USD per-month per-customer.
Assuming you define 'objectively worth' as meaning 'what it costs them to develop and provide the service as offered'. If you define 'objectively worth' differently, that variable's value changes appropriately.
__________
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
No, I'm arguing that the fact that you can technically use Q to get z-points does not mean that FF slots do not essentially cost $50.
Still, it doesn't matter where the Zen comes from. The fact is you can get a Freeform slot for far less than $50. And that's a fact. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow spent $50 to turn to Questionite to get all the Questionite travel powers, it just means that that Zen is out there for anyone to spend on a Freeform slot. And there's no shortage of it.
Still, it doesn't matter where the Zen comes from. The fact is you can get a Freeform slot for far less than $50. And that's a fact. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow spent $50 to turn to Questionite to get all the Questionite travel powers, it just means that that Zen is out there for anyone to spend on a Freeform slot. And there's no shortage of it.
Bah, edited my post while you were typing this. Agree to disagree for now, have to go to bed
Edit: Sorry, I think I'm agreeing with you... I'm not paying very much attention here. :P
Heh.
For me, I get more value (read: entertainment-hours from content that I purchase access to) out of four months of subscription than I get from taking my family out to watch a movie at the local movie theater for about the same cost.
And for so long as it costs less to play this while giving myself and my family a greater benefit compared to our other options, then we'll continue spending some of our entertainment budget here rather than going to the movies. :biggrin:
__________
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
No, I'm arguing that the fact that you can technically use Q to get z-points does not mean that FF slots do not essentially cost $50. They always cost $50 (or more specifically 5000 z, which have a net cost of $50 translated to real world US currency). So for purposes of the article that started this thread it is perfectly reasonable for the author to use the $50 rather than confuse people not familiar with the game by bringing up the Q-exchange, since that's the only figure a person not familiar with the game is likely to understand and FF slots still cost 5000 = $50 anyways.
It doesn't excuse that by not doing so and making things "simple' to understand for the reader, that reader unfamiliar with CO comes to the incorrect conclusion that players are forced to shell out a full amount of $50 if they want to get the Freeform slot. That is untrue and is misinformation and that's my main beef with the article.
No, I'm arguing that the fact that you can technically use Q to get z-points does not mean that FF slots do not essentially cost $50. They always cost $50 (or more specifically 5000 z, which have a net cost of $50 translated to real world US currency). So for purposes of the article that started this thread it is perfectly reasonable for the author to use the $50 rather than confuse people not familiar with the game by bringing up the Q-exchange, since that's the only figure a person not familiar with the game is likely to understand and FF slots still cost 5000 = $50 anyways.
On a basic, fundamental level, you're wrong. You cannot actually purchase a Freeform slot with $50. It's 5000 Zen. This might be meddling in the realm of semantics, but, it is important to make the distinction because, $dollars is something that absolutely always comes out of your wallet. Zen is something that does not always come from your wallet.
The argument is "$50 is too expensive" not "I wish it didn't take a collective of people to pay $50, myself included, for me to obtain a Freeform slot." What that collective of people have to pay is irrelevant, in my opinion.
Let's just take the article into consideration. The only thing it did was sensationalize microtransactions. YOU HAVE TO PAY 50 BUCKS TO GET A CHARACTER THAT CAN DO WHATSIS AND WHITSAS! Instead of "Freeform costs fifty bucks, but you can get it pretty fairly discounted based on how much time you want to devote to it." It just said "Fifty bucks? Partial game? Outrageous!" It's misleading. And I'm not just speaking in terms of Champions. Are all of these items absolutely ridiculous to obtain? Do any of these games have a real money to in-game currency exchange that will let me subvert the real-money cost with in-game grinding? I know of only one other game on that list that will let me, and that's Guild Wars 2. The only reason I know that? I've played the game. Aside from Champs and GW2, I know nothing else about any of those other games. The article did NOTHING to inform players about how they could get what they can. Instead they just said LOL RIDICULOUS and hit Print.
Let's take Guild Wars 2 into account here. Would you think that an article bashing their gem system was so fair? Pay 60 bucks to buy into the game... and get a pitiful FIVE CHARACTER SLOTS! And guess what... all your characters SHARE ONE SINGLE BANK! No personal storage! Good luck if you like alts! And it's TEN BUCKS PER EXTRA CHARACTER SLOT! And what, like 8 bucks if you want to expand your bank... your SHARED BANK BETWEEN ALL CHARACTERS?! LUDICROUS SPEED!
Don't you think it'd be fair to mention that you can trade Gold for Gems, so these items aren't exactly as ridiculously priced as they make it seem?
The article was not informative. All it did was drum up rage from fans and thus generate hits. Sensationalism at its best!
Hundreds ask for the freeform slot in threads past.
Freeform slot arrives, it's rejected by some because it's not exactly like being a gold subscriber.
Its rejected because its a blatant rip off.
Why pay for one character to play the same dead end content people are playing
for free, when that money could be used to buy something like Far Cry 3 that has
a next generation level editor, working crafting and working pvp.
People aren't stupid, charging $50 for a $10 item says that Cryptic assumes they are,
but the OP's link shows they'v made themselves a game business joke.
Spending $50 for a freeform slot isn't that unreasonable to me when I spent $300 for Lifetime, even though I agree $25 (2500 Zen) would be far more logical and beneficial for us all with greatly increased sales. Additionally they WERE just on sale.
What's not cool are those Rank Up Catalysts as that's definitely pay-to-win. Not make things easier, pay to win. Because even if you say those few points are useless, well... have you seen what a R8 or R9 Gambler's Gem costs in trade? Or a CON one? Or a DEX one? Also it creates, for most people I've talked to, a clear perception that you "lost" in a close PvP battle because of the gear. It REALLY discourages PvP, on an access level. And don't forget that's $30 just to take ONE R8 to a R9. I mean wtf?
I generally like Massively, but this author for this article totally missed the other big ridiculous cash-shop grabs.
If you want more money Cryptic, do more sales. Big sales! And advertise the game. Bring in more new people and give them reasons to stay. Hell if you want a big-cost item to sell people will pay a lot for? Add once-a-week RetCon tokens to Lifetime or Gold subscription benefits. Bring back the Archetype Rotation program and keep it going. Stuff like that
It doesn't excuse that by not doing so and making things "simple' to understand for the reader, that reader unfamiliar with CO comes to the incorrect conclusion that players are forced to shell out a full amount of $50 if they want to get the Freeform slot. That is untrue and is misinformation and that's my main beef with the article.
The fact that we can't even agree on this topic highlights how unrealistic it would be for the author to go into details about not just the Q-exchange, but the cash shop systems of every single game mentioned in the article. And if you think that its misinforming not to bring up the Q-exchange and work the "you can (technically within the realm of theoretical posibility) effectively reduce the cost" angle in there, then by that same token, in the name of fairness and preventing misinformation, I would argue that if the author did that then he should have gone into details as to EXACTLY what achieving that cost reduction entails and all the semantics details go with it (how the Q-system works, the amount of Q gained from doing the various mission, the fact that you'd only be able to get a cost reduction on the order of cents and hour, etc.)--which would have derailed the article and delved into topics that had little or nothing to do with what the article was actually about.
On a basic, fundamental level, you're wrong. You cannot actually purchase a Freeform slot with $50. It's 5000 Zen.
And the established price of 5000z in USD currency is $50.
This might be meddling in the realm of semantics, but, it is important to make the distinction because, $dollars is something that absolutely always comes out of your wallet. Zen is something that does not always come from your wallet.
Yes, it is an argument of semantics (this entire discussion about the Q-system is), and if you're going to argue that it is an important distinction to make, then by that same token it is also an important go into details as to exactly what achieving that cost reduction entials, as I explained above in reply to jennymachx.
The argument is "$50 is too expensive" not "I wish it didn't take a collective of people to pay $50, myself included, for me to obtain a Freeform slot." What that collective of people have to pay is irrelevant, in my opinion.
It is relevant if we're going to argue about the relevance of even bringing up the Q-system. Otherwise we'd have a one sided argument based entirely around what supporters of the Q-system find acceptable.
Let's just take the article into consideration. The only thing it did was sensationalize microtransactions. YOU HAVE TO PAY 50 BUCKS TO GET A CHARACTER THAT CAN DO WHATSIS AND WHITSAS! Instead of "Freeform costs fifty bucks, but you can get it pretty fairly discounted based on how much time you want to devote to it." It just said "Fifty bucks? Partial game? Outrageous!" It's misleading. *snip*
Not as much as claiming that because you can technically find ways to reduce the price that the actual price of buying the thing outright is not $50 (like I can go in there tomorrow and significantly reduce the cost by farming Alerts for a few hours). It is. That you can technically buy it at a reduced price does not make the established price in USD currency not $50, it merely means that the cost is still $50 but you can get a discount for it.
I bought my copy of GW2 for around $47 from a game selling site. I see discounted prices like that for the same game (and many others) all the time--they have discounted prices in the same site I bought my copy of GW2 right now. Does the fact that you can easily get a copy of GW2 for less than $59.99 make the established price in USD not $59.99? Maybe ANet should include a disclaimer on their site cuz they're misleading people by claiming a higher price than what you can actually get the game for if you shop around.
I have a Subway card. Every time I buy something in Subway I accumulate points that can be used to get a free sandwich. Does the fact that Subway has a card system that can be used to eventually get a free sub make the price of a $5.50 sub not $5.50? Are we to expect ANY news or advertisement about Subway subs that mentions their price to include a lenthy disclaimer that you can technically get one for free and go into the details of the card system to establish what you'd have to do to get a free sub?
Let's take Guild Wars 2 into account here. Would you think that an article bashing their gem system was so fair? Pay 60 bucks to buy into the game... and get a pitiful FIVE CHARACTER SLOTS! And guess what... all your characters SHARE ONE SINGLE BANK! No personal storage! Good luck if you like alts! And it's TEN BUCKS PER EXTRA CHARACTER SLOT! And what, like 8 bucks if you want to expand your bank... your SHARED BANK BETWEEN ALL CHARACTERS?! LUDICROUS SPEED!
Don't you think it'd be fair to mention that you can trade Gold for Gems, so these items aren't exactly as ridiculously priced as they make it seem?
Not unless the topic of the article was about an indepth look at GW2's cash shop. If they're piling it along with a bunch of other cash shops on a general look at cash shops in MMOs and what you'd have to spend in them translated as USD currency to get stuff (the actual topic of the article in question) then the cost of a GW2 character slot is $10 USD (which I have bought two of, and payed $10 each).
The article was not informative. All it did was drum up rage from fans and thus generate hits. Sensationalism at its best!
I have seen worse instances of sensationalism and all the article failed to provide in my view was minor details that people here are nitpicking about here, which would have derailed the actual topic of the article and lenthen its text manifold if they were to go into them for every single game.
Holy amazeballs, this thread exploded. I wonder if I should feel proud.
Here's my thing: At least to me, the big selling point on the game is character customization and a big part of that is freeforms. Freeforms is one of the big ways you make tentative players into more permanent players.
Now I understand the push to getting players to sub, but if they're silver to begin with they're already pretty cautious about spending $15 already. Put what amounts to a $50 price tag on freeforms and now they're even more edgy.
Of course they can farm Questionite. Alrighty, let's say they start farming the max Q per day on both of their slots. Let's say a rough 200 Q per Z, 5000 Z for a freeform slot, 16000 max Q per day, carry the one... That's 62.5 days. Two months or so if I want to grind my way to a free freeform. One month if I want to grind my way to a $25 freeform. And that's maxing out your Q refining on two alts every day for that month. At some point the question 'is this really worth it' pops up.
They can also do Peanutlabs, but now you're opening up another potential can of worms there. Not everyone is ready and open to accept online offers.
To me, personally, the sub is worth the price of admission. But subs are about as dated as ADSL these days. Having seen an old guildie of mine from CoX sour up when she saw the freeform price tag, I have my worries that we're pricing ourselves out of the range of potential new customers here.
To sum up one of my points, if you're going to suggest CO's FF slot was outlined while missing important details because they dislike CO, are you also claiming they dislike LOTRO and similar games?
Most MMOs don't have you use a cash shop directly. Many MMOs have ways to get points for a cash shop through game play.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Oh I hope this doesn't start a "no, it's more like this..." analogy war.
People buying them is proof that they're priced right, is what I was saying. You can't deny that. If they were overpriced, nobody would buy them, and Cryptic wouldn't make money off them.
There's a flaw with your argument, however. Sometimes the purchaser buys the item in question WHILE FEELING THE OBJECT IS OVERPRICED. e.g., "I could wait to get it on sale, cheaper, but I want it now/have to give it as a present tomorrow", etc. I'm so tired of seeing the fallacy that "people are paying the price, therefore it is the proper price for said item". Maybe in a "market" situation, where price can be adjusted in a number of ways (competition, coupons, various levels of product quality) it self-adjusts to the "right price". In -this- particular situation, there is no way for somebody to get a slot at a price OTHER THAN 50$ (barring sales, or questionite farming). They can't "shop around", they can't "price match at a competing store", and so on. If they want it, they =have to= pay the 50$ (again, barring sales, et. al.). That doesn't prove the price point is "right". It proves that people want the product. If the point were lower, maybe MORE people would buy it. That would indicate a "better" price than the current one is/isn't.
If a loaf of bread were 1000$, and 1)you really wanted bread, 2)nobody else had any at any other price , 3)you didn't know how to make your own and 4)you had a grand in your pocket... Wouldn't you buy the bread? Does this mean that a thousand dollars is the "right" point because you might hypothetically pay it not to starve to death?
Its rejected because its a blatant rip off.
Why pay for one character to play the same dead end content people are playing
for free, when that money could be used to buy something like Far Cry 3 that has
a next generation level editor, working crafting and working pvp.
But I don't want to play Far Cry 3. I never wanted to play any of the Far Cry series. None of them are worth $50 - to me. OTOH, if I weren't looking forward to going LTS in a couple of months, I'd be giving serious consideration to buying an FF slot, because this game is worth $50 - to me.
Really, this assumption that there's some sort of non-subjective value that can be applied to a video game is ridiculous. I mean, some people even think that $68 monocle in EVE Online is "worth it" - because they have $68 to spare, and think it makes their character look cooler. And all it does is sit there on your face, because they had online riots (literal riots - I understand a space station was laid siege) at the very suggestion that their new cash shop might sell items that actually do something. At least if I buy an FF slot, I can mix and match powers just like a Gold, I just can't retint them (or get a new slot every time I hit 40, or get the stipend, or...).
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
And the established price of 5000z in USD currency is $50.
The actual price of 5000Z is any combination of 0 to 1,000,000 questionite and 0$ to 50$.
And since I know you're gonna go there...
If I buy your lawnmower for 50$ and then I trade that lawnmower for a new wood chipper, you did not just buy me a woodchipper, no matter how long or loudly you claim that you did.
The article is misleading, they don't mention that you can get the freeform slot without spending a dime. They also don't mention the grab bags, which apparently could be a reoccuring event. Not sure why some people are so happy to see CO get the bad press, we need more people interested in this game, not less.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
*It is a steep price, but you can earn money to buy it in-game. See here for details.
Simple, you could do that for every game that has this option available.
@caycepollard:
Price and value are two different things. If there's a lot of people who are buying them, then the price is fair, or "right" or whatever. If you think it's too expensive, maybe you're just not the right market for it.
For instance, I'll pay 30 bucks for a good steak. Many people think that's too much for a meal, but to me, a good steak is worth it. Some people don't think a slice of meat should cost 30 bucks and they say it's too expensive. In my opinion it's worth every penny.
So, is the steak overpriced? No, I don't think so. And the steakhouse is selling these things left and right. That you think that 30 bucks is "overpriced" doesn't mean that it is. Just that that steakhouse is not right for you.
The actual price of 5000Z is any combination of 0 to 1,000,000 questionite and 0$ to 50$.
And since I know you're gonna go there...
If I buy your lawnmower for 50$ and then I trade that lawnmower for a new wood chipper, you did not just buy me a woodchipper, no matter how long or loudly you claim that you did.
The article is misleading, they don't mention that you can get the freeform slot without spending a dime. They also don't mention the grab bags, which apparently could be a reoccuring event. Not sure why some people are so happy to see CO get the bad press, we need more people interested in this game, not less.
OMG these people don't list Q anywhere on the Payment options of their billing page! Its like they're trying to imply that the ONLY way to get ZEN is to spend real cash through paypal, or use a credit card or one of several vouchers or prepaid options.
How DARE they not list Q as one of the obviously factual, ALTERNATE payment options that should be brought up any time the subject of pricing comes up when talking about the cost of buying something from their games--especially when people are specifically talking about how those costs translate to normal payment costs using US currency as opposed to any ALTERNATE way that may potentially exist to aquire the same thing? That is SO misleading!!! :mad:
Just like those Subway people not including break down of their card's point system on their price boards right next to each sandwich so you'd know EXACTLY how much one of their sandwhiches costs when taking the free subs earned through their point system into account. How do these people get away with this stuff?
We're not talking advertizing here, though. It's a third-party review. It's like a restaurant review blog saying Subway sandwiches are too expensive (if they were) and failing to mention that they could be rendered inexpensive by the use of a customer loyalty card, which everyone has access to.
@VS: @caycepollard:
Price and value are two different things. If there's a lot of people who are buying them, then the price is fair, or "right" or whatever. If you think it's too expensive, maybe you're just not the right market for it.
For instance, I'll pay 30 bucks for a good steak. Many people think that's too much for a meal, but to me, a good steak is worth it. Some people don't think a slice of meat should cost 30 bucks and they say it's too expensive. In my opinion it's worth every penny.
So, is the steak overpriced? No, I don't think so. And the steakhouse is selling these things left and right. That you think that 30 bucks is "overpriced" doesn't mean that it is. Just that that steakhouse is not right for you.
Not exactly as value does influence a selling price but you're right on the other point : we don't have the numbers to tell if this FF slot is selling as well as Cryptic wants it.
Anyone else find it kinda stupid to call these things "ridiculous" on the basis of "nobody would do that!" when at least half of these (the ones I'd previously heard of) were actually successful, one of which was a direct result of player requests (Liger) and another netted Blizzard One Million Dollars In One Day?
Yes. Potentially making a metric **** Ton of money for very little work is completely ridiculous on the part of the developers. What were they thinking.
We're not talking advertizing here, though. It's a third-party review. It's like a restaurant review blog saying Subway sandwiches are too expensive (if they were) and failing to mention that they could be rendered inexpensive by the use of a customer loyalty card, which everyone has access to.
"Free sandwiches as long as you play 10 hours of pinball in the back of the store"
Anyone else find it kinda stupid to call these things "ridiculous" on the basis of "nobody would do that!" when at least half of these (the ones I'd previously heard of) were actually successful, one of which was a direct result of player requests (Liger) and another netted Blizzard One Million Dollars In One Day?
Yes. Potentially making a metric **** Ton of money for very little work is completely ridiculous on the part of the developers. What were they thinking.
That the price of the slots has stayed as it is doesn't mean it's at its peak profit price. We don't know and can only guess what that actually is. Do they even have analysis in place to bother trying to determine this? Doubt it, especially considering how nebulous territory that is. I am not aware of any actual permanent price changes to any items in this game. If there are, they are quite the exception.
The fact people can grind for Q and convert it to Zen to acquire the stuff only further muddies the waters (even with the oft-toted fact of 'someone is buying the Zen'). Perhaps they even aim high with this stuff purposefully to put it more out of the range of grinding, to entice some actual money to be used.
In any case, I know they've done a 50% off sale at one time and I wouldn't be surprised to see it again.
OMG these people don't list Q anywhere on the Payment options of their billing page! Its like they're trying to imply that the ONLY way to get ZEN is to spend real cash through paypal, or use a credit card or one of several vouchers or prepaid options.
How DARE they not list Q as one of the obviously factual, ALTERNATE payment options that should be brought up any time the subject of pricing comes up when talking about the cost of buying something from their games--especially when people are specifically talking about how those costs translate to normal payment costs using US currency as opposed to any ALTERNATE way that may potentially exist to aquire the same thing? That is SO misleading!!! :mad:
Just like those Subway people not including break down of their card's point system on their price boards right next to each sandwich so you'd know EXACTLY how much one of their sandwhiches costs when taking the free subs earned through their point system into account. How do these people get away with this stuff?
/Sarc
Check the Z-Store, the only place you can actually aquire the FF slot, and the only place that the price for it is actually listed. Oh look, it's listed in Zen, and only Zen. Zen... which you can aquire for dollars, questionite, pounds, yen, rubles, <insert any other type of currency here>. Oops.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
That 'perfect' list isn't all that perfect. Mounts and pets being in the cash shop aren't that big of a deal to me, for the most part they are vanity items just as costume packs here are.
While I do agree that the ff slot is a bit on the expensive side, I do understand why it is set at the price it is at. The catalysts on the other hand, with the consideration that they purposely made it so the fusion system could fail costing mods, is just a blatant cash grab.
I also think more items from SWTOR cartel shop could have been added, like the weekly passes for warzones/flashpoints. Outside of the hokey bars there are many EA/Bioware shouldn't consider selling but they are.
The fact that we can't even agree on this topic highlights how unrealistic it would be for the author to go into details about not just the Q-exchange, but the cash shop systems of every single game mentioned in the article. And if you think that its misinforming not to bring up the Q-exchange and work the "you can (technically within the realm of theoretical posibility) effectively reduce the cost" angle in there, then by that same token, in the name of fairness and preventing misinformation, I would argue that if the author did that then he should have gone into details as to EXACTLY what achieving that cost reduction entails and all the semantics details go with it (how the Q-system works, the amount of Q gained from doing the various mission, the fact that you'd only be able to get a cost reduction on the order of cents and hour, etc.)--which would have derailed the article and delved into topics that had little or nothing to do with what the article was actually about.
I agree. Listing out details about how questionite as an ingame resource that can be used to effectively reduce the cost of the slot would derail the main topic of the article, because the article wasn't about being fair, balanced and 100% factual; It's about sensationalism. It's obvious that these facts were omitted out of the article because if they were included, it would have heavily invalidated CO's entry and the message of "We're forced to pay $50 for this! How dare they, those greedy corporate-types!" wouldn't have been effective.
OMG these people don't list Q anywhere on the Payment options of their billing page! Its like they're trying to imply that the ONLY way to get ZEN is to spend real cash through paypal, or use a credit card or one of several vouchers or prepaid options.
How DARE they not list Q as one of the obviously factual, ALTERNATE payment options that should be brought up any time the subject of pricing comes up when talking about the cost of buying something from their games--especially when people are specifically talking about how those costs translate to normal payment costs using US currency as opposed to any ALTERNATE way that may potentially exist to aquire the same thing? That is SO misleading!!! :mad:
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The billing site doesn't need to list questionite as an alternative option of payment because anyone who has played the game and explored the mechanics for even a single day will understand that it is such.
Nerdrage is both the emotion felt when a nerd is exposed to something that directly contradicts the core beliefs of their obsession, and the reactionary diatribe by the nerd that inevitably follows. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerdrage
That^ is all I see in the arguments that this article was somehow being misleading based on the technicality...
tech.ni.cal.i.ty 1. The quality or condition of being technical. 2. Something meaningful or relevant only to a specialist*: a legal technicality. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/technicality
...and not a pure 100% unadulterated "fact", that there are convoluted, ALTERNATE in-game means that could technically be used <insert lengthy disclaimer with clarifications on what using such convoluted, alternate means actually entails in real world scenarios> to acquire the special type of currency used to buy these items, but the article didn't mention them, when the actual topic of the article was about what it costs IN REAL WORLD CURRENCY to aquire such items, and not about the (IMO questionable) merits of such ALTERNATE systems (which would be a topic for a whole different article).
*or in this case game enthusiasts or "nerd" (which crowd I'm technically part of, even though I don't share on sentiments expressed on these posts on this particular issue)
Nerdrage is both the emotion felt when a nerd is exposed to something that directly contradicts the core beliefs of their obsession, and the reactionary diatribe by the nerd that inevitably follows. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerdrage
That^ is all I see in the arguments that this article was somehow being misleading based on the technicality...
tech.ni.cal.i.ty
1. The quality or condition of being technical.
2. Something meaningful or relevant only to a specialist*: a legal technicality. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/technicality
...and not a pure 100% unadulterated "fact", that there are convoluted, ALTERNATE in-game means that could technically be used <insert lengthy disclaimer with clarifications on what using such convoluted, alternate means actually entails in real world scenarios> to acquire the special type of currency used to buy these items, but the article didn't mention them, when the actual topic of the article was about what it costs IN REAL WORLD CURRENCY to aquire such items, and not about the (IMO questionable) merits of such ALTERNATE systems (which would be a topic for a whole different article).
*or in this case game enthusiasts or "nerd" (which crowd I'm technically part of, even though I don't share on sentiments expressed on these posts on this particular issue)
You're going to great lengths defending an article that has half-truths and misinformation, and even have resorted to using derogatory terms like "nerdrage" to trivialize what I feel is reasonable criticism as to why the article is bad. Is there a particular reason why you're so passionate in doing so? Do you know the writer perhaps?
If technicalities are important in preventing misrepresentation of facts, then they should be included. And please, you're exaggerating the complexity of the technicalities about questionite and ZEN. There's nothing convoluted about them and it all can be explained concisely in a single paragraph or two.
A person doesn't have to be a specialist to have technicalities relevant or meaningful to them, unless we're talking about a specialized field of work like Engineering. The second definition is not within the context of what's being discussed here.
Comments
The argument has no merit since a lot of video games aren't even worth $50 since you can complete them in a fraction of the time these days. As pointed out you don't even have to pay money, just time, to get a freeform slot, and you have multiple avenues, including just playing the game to get it. The fact its number 1 ahead of things like pay for your basic UI features for SWTOR, a $25 horse, a $68 monocle, and other such features is laughable and how people don't bother looking at anything else. This isn't just defense of the game, this is just common sense that is actually being blatantly ignored, considering to get the same features, at severely reduced rate if you want to use the have to pay from the store, you would have to pay more than $50 and still wouldn't have a freeform character.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It's negligable only if the player decides it to be negligable.
Let's consider the current most effecient way to earn questionite: Alert dailies. Each day a single hero on a player account is able to obtain 2000 questionite from the daily reward. In a full week that amounts to 14,000. The current questionite exchange rate is on average 200 questionite per ZEN so that's an earning of 70 ZEN per week per hero.
Note that 70 ZEN per week is for a single hero. There's no limit to how many alts you can have to get the 2000 questionite reward each from dailies. I could have let's say 5 heroes each doing the daily and in a week I'll get 350 ZEN. Spend another week doing such and it amounts up to 700 ZEN. In a month that's 1400 ZEN. According to the current prices for ZEN purchase, 1400 ZEN is equivalent to $14 (not including VAT). That's a near 30% discount if a Freeform slot is being considered for pruchase and that's far from negligable.
Also, this is just from doing the dailies. I haven't taken to account other means of getting questionite, like from APs/Comic series, or a dedicated NemCon questionite farm run, and that each individual hero has a questionite refinement limit of 8000, not the player account as a whole.
The only trade-off is that it takes a rather extensive amount of time to get that 1400 ZEN discount, but the point remains that the opportunity to reduce the cost of a Freeform slot is always there for the taking. Also I realize that the questionite exchange rate can change at any time, but it seems that current rate has remained at around 200 questionite per ZEN for quite some time now and it doesn't look to change any time soon.
So back to my original point: The article doesn't address all of these factors regarding the relationship between questionite, ZEN and actual money along with relationship between questionite and game mechanics, and a lot of information has been left out for it to be serious misinformation.
I mean, if you enjoy farming alerts across 10 characters for a few hours a day so that you can effectively earn 30 cents an hour, then great -- you are effectively earning money for something you enjoy.
Or, to sum up -- yes, the article glosses over a factor, but I have serious doubts for the vast majority of people that factor is SO significant that it completely invalidates the article.
It's also not unique to Champions Online, and isn't unique to Freeform slot -- it's something built into the cash shop overall. He also doesn't mention the zen surveys and all the other fiddly ways you can try to squeeze out some points -- it doesn't change the fact that the amount of zen and effective cash (from WHEREVER it came from) is $50.
It's still $50 even if someone gave me a gift card, or I had birthday money, or... whatever.
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Agreed.
The only downsides, if you can call them that, to going dirt cheap on your product under such circumstances is the possibility that you might have sold just as many units if you had set the price a tiny bit higher and the possibility that purchasers will hold off on buying the product if they have reason to expect it to go that low later.
Ultimately I wouldn't consider these to be downsides because of the less measurable benefits of customer loyalty over the long term that can be gained through this sort of program.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
In these circumstances Zen is not effectively cash (or do you know someplace where I can convert my many thousands of zen into USD without breaking any rules ?). Questionite earned in play is more like a coupon that reduces the price by a set amount (the set amount being the amount of Zen you can get for the Q that you have).
If you only have to pay $25 in cash for the FF slot, and Cryptic gives you a $25 credit/coupon for playing the game, you have not paid $50.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
By which logic your argument would have even less merit, since we're talking about a $50 option for a single toon in a game that's starving for content and can be "completed" (i.e. play most of its content) in a fraction of the time you can complete most MMOs.
All I can say is this...
...and if you don't enjoy it, you might as well cough up the $50, cuz I sure as hell I'm not farming 30 Alerts with 10 characters a day just to save 30 cents/hour (approx.).
And someone, somewhere always has to pay, since Q isn't really free. It has to be exchanged for z-points to buy something from the store, and z-points always cost money to someone. So Cryptic still makes $50 out of those FF slots even if you personally are not paying them.
Wait, has the conversation changed from "Is $50 too expensive for Freeform" to "PWE shouldn't get $50 for Freeform?"
I think you're misdirecting things here. You're arguing against using Questionite to "discount" a Freeform slot just because PWE gets their money anyway.
People said $50 is too expensive. You can get it, literally, for $0, just time spent. Doesn't matter where the money comes from or who gets said money.
(Not necessarily arguing with you, merely using your post as a springboard for my own thoughts.)
To address the price-for-content bit:
I have a family. For the local movie theater, the average price per ticket is $10 (accounting for the littles costing less and the adults/teens costing more). We would need to buy six tickets (one for myself, one for my beloved, four for my boys).
Assuming we ignore everything but the price of the movie tickets for this family outing, it costs us $60 for two~ hours of entertainment. Given that there are six of us, that $60 adds up to twelve~ hours of entertainment split among six people.
Can you complete the entirety of CO's content in twelve hours /played? Personally, I can't.
$60 is four months worth of subscription. Can you complete the entirety of CO's content within four months subscribed? Yes, I can (and have done so repeatedly).
Do you see the equivalency?
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
This is why value is subjective. To you, going to movies with your family is worth all that money. Me? I hate being around people, and movie theaters are just awful. (Yeah I have a problem, that's immaterial, Your Honor!)
Some people say "$50 for a new game is way better than freeform!" Others say "I'd rather take my family to the movies!" Well, what about the people who'd rather spend that money on a video game that they love to play?
Completely subjective.
Basically, if your counter-argument to this is what you would personally like to do with your money, instead of what, factually, this service is worth, then you're not really making a very convincing argument.
Edit: Sorry, I think I'm agreeing with you... I'm not paying very much attention here. :P
No, I'm arguing that the fact that you can technically use Q to get z-points does not mean that FF slots do not essentially cost $50. They always cost $50 (or more specifically 5000 z, which have a net cost of $50 translated to real world US currency). So for purposes of the article that started this thread it is perfectly reasonable for the author to use the $50 rather than confuse people not familiar with the game by bringing up the Q-exchange, since that's the only figure a person not familiar with the game is likely to understand and FF slots still cost 5000 = $50 anyways.
The Champions Online "gold subscriber" service is 'objectively worth' roughly $0.87~ USD per-month per-customer going by the current general and location-specific costs involved that are public knowledge and the other values which can be reasonably inferred about the remainder.
For comparison, the Champions Online "silver free-to-play" service is 'objectively worth' roughly $0.18~ USD per-month per-customer.
Assuming you define 'objectively worth' as meaning 'what it costs them to develop and provide the service as offered'. If you define 'objectively worth' differently, that variable's value changes appropriately.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
Still, it doesn't matter where the Zen comes from. The fact is you can get a Freeform slot for far less than $50. And that's a fact. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow spent $50 to turn to Questionite to get all the Questionite travel powers, it just means that that Zen is out there for anyone to spend on a Freeform slot. And there's no shortage of it.
Bah, edited my post while you were typing this. Agree to disagree for now, have to go to bed
Heh.
For me, I get more value (read: entertainment-hours from content that I purchase access to) out of four months of subscription than I get from taking my family out to watch a movie at the local movie theater for about the same cost.
And for so long as it costs less to play this while giving myself and my family a greater benefit compared to our other options, then we'll continue spending some of our entertainment budget here rather than going to the movies. :biggrin:
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
It doesn't excuse that by not doing so and making things "simple' to understand for the reader, that reader unfamiliar with CO comes to the incorrect conclusion that players are forced to shell out a full amount of $50 if they want to get the Freeform slot. That is untrue and is misinformation and that's my main beef with the article.
On a basic, fundamental level, you're wrong. You cannot actually purchase a Freeform slot with $50. It's 5000 Zen. This might be meddling in the realm of semantics, but, it is important to make the distinction because, $dollars is something that absolutely always comes out of your wallet. Zen is something that does not always come from your wallet.
The argument is "$50 is too expensive" not "I wish it didn't take a collective of people to pay $50, myself included, for me to obtain a Freeform slot." What that collective of people have to pay is irrelevant, in my opinion.
Let's just take the article into consideration. The only thing it did was sensationalize microtransactions. YOU HAVE TO PAY 50 BUCKS TO GET A CHARACTER THAT CAN DO WHATSIS AND WHITSAS! Instead of "Freeform costs fifty bucks, but you can get it pretty fairly discounted based on how much time you want to devote to it." It just said "Fifty bucks? Partial game? Outrageous!" It's misleading. And I'm not just speaking in terms of Champions. Are all of these items absolutely ridiculous to obtain? Do any of these games have a real money to in-game currency exchange that will let me subvert the real-money cost with in-game grinding? I know of only one other game on that list that will let me, and that's Guild Wars 2. The only reason I know that? I've played the game. Aside from Champs and GW2, I know nothing else about any of those other games. The article did NOTHING to inform players about how they could get what they can. Instead they just said LOL RIDICULOUS and hit Print.
Let's take Guild Wars 2 into account here. Would you think that an article bashing their gem system was so fair? Pay 60 bucks to buy into the game... and get a pitiful FIVE CHARACTER SLOTS! And guess what... all your characters SHARE ONE SINGLE BANK! No personal storage! Good luck if you like alts! And it's TEN BUCKS PER EXTRA CHARACTER SLOT! And what, like 8 bucks if you want to expand your bank... your SHARED BANK BETWEEN ALL CHARACTERS?! LUDICROUS SPEED!
Don't you think it'd be fair to mention that you can trade Gold for Gems, so these items aren't exactly as ridiculously priced as they make it seem?
The article was not informative. All it did was drum up rage from fans and thus generate hits. Sensationalism at its best!
Why pay for one character to play the same dead end content people are playing
for free, when that money could be used to buy something like Far Cry 3 that has
a next generation level editor, working crafting and working pvp.
People aren't stupid, charging $50 for a $10 item says that Cryptic assumes they are,
but the OP's link shows they'v made themselves a game business joke.
I know right?
Spending $50 for a freeform slot isn't that unreasonable to me when I spent $300 for Lifetime, even though I agree $25 (2500 Zen) would be far more logical and beneficial for us all with greatly increased sales. Additionally they WERE just on sale.
What's not cool are those Rank Up Catalysts as that's definitely pay-to-win. Not make things easier, pay to win. Because even if you say those few points are useless, well... have you seen what a R8 or R9 Gambler's Gem costs in trade? Or a CON one? Or a DEX one? Also it creates, for most people I've talked to, a clear perception that you "lost" in a close PvP battle because of the gear. It REALLY discourages PvP, on an access level. And don't forget that's $30 just to take ONE R8 to a R9. I mean wtf?
I generally like Massively, but this author for this article totally missed the other big ridiculous cash-shop grabs.
If you want more money Cryptic, do more sales. Big sales! And advertise the game. Bring in more new people and give them reasons to stay. Hell if you want a big-cost item to sell people will pay a lot for? Add once-a-week RetCon tokens to Lifetime or Gold subscription benefits. Bring back the Archetype Rotation program and keep it going. Stuff like that
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
The fact that we can't even agree on this topic highlights how unrealistic it would be for the author to go into details about not just the Q-exchange, but the cash shop systems of every single game mentioned in the article. And if you think that its misinforming not to bring up the Q-exchange and work the "you can (technically within the realm of theoretical posibility) effectively reduce the cost" angle in there, then by that same token, in the name of fairness and preventing misinformation, I would argue that if the author did that then he should have gone into details as to EXACTLY what achieving that cost reduction entails and all the semantics details go with it (how the Q-system works, the amount of Q gained from doing the various mission, the fact that you'd only be able to get a cost reduction on the order of cents and hour, etc.)--which would have derailed the article and delved into topics that had little or nothing to do with what the article was actually about.
Also more on this below...
And the established price of 5000z in USD currency is $50.
Yes, it is an argument of semantics (this entire discussion about the Q-system is), and if you're going to argue that it is an important distinction to make, then by that same token it is also an important go into details as to exactly what achieving that cost reduction entials, as I explained above in reply to jennymachx.
It is relevant if we're going to argue about the relevance of even bringing up the Q-system. Otherwise we'd have a one sided argument based entirely around what supporters of the Q-system find acceptable.
Not as much as claiming that because you can technically find ways to reduce the price that the actual price of buying the thing outright is not $50 (like I can go in there tomorrow and significantly reduce the cost by farming Alerts for a few hours). It is. That you can technically buy it at a reduced price does not make the established price in USD currency not $50, it merely means that the cost is still $50 but you can get a discount for it.
I bought my copy of GW2 for around $47 from a game selling site. I see discounted prices like that for the same game (and many others) all the time--they have discounted prices in the same site I bought my copy of GW2 right now. Does the fact that you can easily get a copy of GW2 for less than $59.99 make the established price in USD not $59.99? Maybe ANet should include a disclaimer on their site cuz they're misleading people by claiming a higher price than what you can actually get the game for if you shop around.
I have a Subway card. Every time I buy something in Subway I accumulate points that can be used to get a free sandwich. Does the fact that Subway has a card system that can be used to eventually get a free sub make the price of a $5.50 sub not $5.50? Are we to expect ANY news or advertisement about Subway subs that mentions their price to include a lenthy disclaimer that you can technically get one for free and go into the details of the card system to establish what you'd have to do to get a free sub?
Not unless the topic of the article was about an indepth look at GW2's cash shop. If they're piling it along with a bunch of other cash shops on a general look at cash shops in MMOs and what you'd have to spend in them translated as USD currency to get stuff (the actual topic of the article in question) then the cost of a GW2 character slot is $10 USD (which I have bought two of, and payed $10 each).
I have seen worse instances of sensationalism and all the article failed to provide in my view was minor details that people here are nitpicking about here, which would have derailed the actual topic of the article and lenthen its text manifold if they were to go into them for every single game.
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Here's my thing: At least to me, the big selling point on the game is character customization and a big part of that is freeforms. Freeforms is one of the big ways you make tentative players into more permanent players.
Now I understand the push to getting players to sub, but if they're silver to begin with they're already pretty cautious about spending $15 already. Put what amounts to a $50 price tag on freeforms and now they're even more edgy.
Of course they can farm Questionite. Alrighty, let's say they start farming the max Q per day on both of their slots. Let's say a rough 200 Q per Z, 5000 Z for a freeform slot, 16000 max Q per day, carry the one... That's 62.5 days. Two months or so if I want to grind my way to a free freeform. One month if I want to grind my way to a $25 freeform. And that's maxing out your Q refining on two alts every day for that month. At some point the question 'is this really worth it' pops up.
They can also do Peanutlabs, but now you're opening up another potential can of worms there. Not everyone is ready and open to accept online offers.
To me, personally, the sub is worth the price of admission. But subs are about as dated as ADSL these days. Having seen an old guildie of mine from CoX sour up when she saw the freeform price tag, I have my worries that we're pricing ourselves out of the range of potential new customers here.
Or 12 months, if you're smart.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Most MMOs don't have you use a cash shop directly. Many MMOs have ways to get points for a cash shop through game play.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
There's a flaw with your argument, however. Sometimes the purchaser buys the item in question WHILE FEELING THE OBJECT IS OVERPRICED. e.g., "I could wait to get it on sale, cheaper, but I want it now/have to give it as a present tomorrow", etc. I'm so tired of seeing the fallacy that "people are paying the price, therefore it is the proper price for said item". Maybe in a "market" situation, where price can be adjusted in a number of ways (competition, coupons, various levels of product quality) it self-adjusts to the "right price". In -this- particular situation, there is no way for somebody to get a slot at a price OTHER THAN 50$ (barring sales, or questionite farming). They can't "shop around", they can't "price match at a competing store", and so on. If they want it, they =have to= pay the 50$ (again, barring sales, et. al.). That doesn't prove the price point is "right". It proves that people want the product. If the point were lower, maybe MORE people would buy it. That would indicate a "better" price than the current one is/isn't.
If a loaf of bread were 1000$, and 1)you really wanted bread, 2)nobody else had any at any other price , 3)you didn't know how to make your own and 4)you had a grand in your pocket... Wouldn't you buy the bread? Does this mean that a thousand dollars is the "right" point because you might hypothetically pay it not to starve to death?
Well I'm trying to be smart if that's the case. Please share even if it has to be a PM.
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(And they may be lower elsewhere)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Really, this assumption that there's some sort of non-subjective value that can be applied to a video game is ridiculous. I mean, some people even think that $68 monocle in EVE Online is "worth it" - because they have $68 to spare, and think it makes their character look cooler. And all it does is sit there on your face, because they had online riots (literal riots - I understand a space station was laid siege) at the very suggestion that their new cash shop might sell items that actually do something. At least if I buy an FF slot, I can mix and match powers just like a Gold, I just can't retint them (or get a new slot every time I hit 40, or get the stipend, or...).
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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The actual price of 5000Z is any combination of 0 to 1,000,000 questionite and 0$ to 50$.
And since I know you're gonna go there...
If I buy your lawnmower for 50$ and then I trade that lawnmower for a new wood chipper, you did not just buy me a woodchipper, no matter how long or loudly you claim that you did.
The article is misleading, they don't mention that you can get the freeform slot without spending a dime. They also don't mention the grab bags, which apparently could be a reoccuring event. Not sure why some people are so happy to see CO get the bad press, we need more people interested in this game, not less.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
@Quincy-St-Moth's PRIMUS page
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You don't need to go into monstrous detail:
*It is a steep price, but you can earn money to buy it in-game. See here for details.
Simple, you could do that for every game that has this option available.
@caycepollard:
Price and value are two different things. If there's a lot of people who are buying them, then the price is fair, or "right" or whatever. If you think it's too expensive, maybe you're just not the right market for it.
For instance, I'll pay 30 bucks for a good steak. Many people think that's too much for a meal, but to me, a good steak is worth it. Some people don't think a slice of meat should cost 30 bucks and they say it's too expensive. In my opinion it's worth every penny.
So, is the steak overpriced? No, I don't think so. And the steakhouse is selling these things left and right. That you think that 30 bucks is "overpriced" doesn't mean that it is. Just that that steakhouse is not right for you.
https://billing.perfectworld.com/options
OMG these people don't list Q anywhere on the Payment options of their billing page! Its like they're trying to imply that the ONLY way to get ZEN is to spend real cash through paypal, or use a credit card or one of several vouchers or prepaid options.
How DARE they not list Q as one of the obviously factual, ALTERNATE payment options that should be brought up any time the subject of pricing comes up when talking about the cost of buying something from their games--especially when people are specifically talking about how those costs translate to normal payment costs using US currency as opposed to any ALTERNATE way that may potentially exist to aquire the same thing? That is SO misleading!!! :mad:
Just like those Subway people not including break down of their card's point system on their price boards right next to each sandwich so you'd know EXACTLY how much one of their sandwhiches costs when taking the free subs earned through their point system into account. How do these people get away with this stuff?
/Sarc
Not exactly as value does influence a selling price but you're right on the other point : we don't have the numbers to tell if this FF slot is selling as well as Cryptic wants it.
Yes. Potentially making a metric **** Ton of money for very little work is completely ridiculous on the part of the developers. What were they thinking.
"Free sandwiches as long as you play 10 hours of pinball in the back of the store"
Wrong. Two million in the first four hours.
Hey it's like Vegas, as long as you're putting money in the game, you get free drinks!
Quoted for hilarious truth.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
This is also why *I* went Gold.
The fact people can grind for Q and convert it to Zen to acquire the stuff only further muddies the waters (even with the oft-toted fact of 'someone is buying the Zen'). Perhaps they even aim high with this stuff purposefully to put it more out of the range of grinding, to entice some actual money to be used.
In any case, I know they've done a 50% off sale at one time and I wouldn't be surprised to see it again.
Check the Z-Store, the only place you can actually aquire the FF slot, and the only place that the price for it is actually listed. Oh look, it's listed in Zen, and only Zen. Zen... which you can aquire for dollars, questionite, pounds, yen, rubles, <insert any other type of currency here>. Oops.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
While I do agree that the ff slot is a bit on the expensive side, I do understand why it is set at the price it is at. The catalysts on the other hand, with the consideration that they purposely made it so the fusion system could fail costing mods, is just a blatant cash grab.
I also think more items from SWTOR cartel shop could have been added, like the weekly passes for warzones/flashpoints. Outside of the hokey bars there are many EA/Bioware shouldn't consider selling but they are.
I agree. Listing out details about how questionite as an ingame resource that can be used to effectively reduce the cost of the slot would derail the main topic of the article, because the article wasn't about being fair, balanced and 100% factual; It's about sensationalism. It's obvious that these facts were omitted out of the article because if they were included, it would have heavily invalidated CO's entry and the message of "We're forced to pay $50 for this! How dare they, those greedy corporate-types!" wouldn't have been effective.
The billing site doesn't need to list questionite as an alternative option of payment because anyone who has played the game and explored the mechanics for even a single day will understand that it is such.
Nerdrage is both the emotion felt when a nerd is exposed to something that directly contradicts the core beliefs of their obsession, and the reactionary diatribe by the nerd that inevitably follows.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerdrage
That^ is all I see in the arguments that this article was somehow being misleading based on the technicality...
tech.ni.cal.i.ty
1. The quality or condition of being technical.
2. Something meaningful or relevant only to a specialist*: a legal technicality.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/technicality
...and not a pure 100% unadulterated "fact", that there are convoluted, ALTERNATE in-game means that could technically be used <insert lengthy disclaimer with clarifications on what using such convoluted, alternate means actually entails in real world scenarios> to acquire the special type of currency used to buy these items, but the article didn't mention them, when the actual topic of the article was about what it costs IN REAL WORLD CURRENCY to aquire such items, and not about the (IMO questionable) merits of such ALTERNATE systems (which would be a topic for a whole different article).
*or in this case game enthusiasts or "nerd" (which crowd I'm technically part of, even though I don't share on sentiments expressed on these posts on this particular issue)
You're going to great lengths defending an article that has half-truths and misinformation, and even have resorted to using derogatory terms like "nerdrage" to trivialize what I feel is reasonable criticism as to why the article is bad. Is there a particular reason why you're so passionate in doing so? Do you know the writer perhaps?
If technicalities are important in preventing misrepresentation of facts, then they should be included. And please, you're exaggerating the complexity of the technicalities about questionite and ZEN. There's nothing convoluted about them and it all can be explained concisely in a single paragraph or two.
A person doesn't have to be a specialist to have technicalities relevant or meaningful to them, unless we're talking about a specialized field of work like Engineering. The second definition is not within the context of what's being discussed here.