What I'm wondering is, why can't Ascension grant two buffs? Buff one is the +damage/+healing and buff two is the flight. NTTG would cancel the flight, and if it was determined that the flight was that big a mechanic of the power you could even make it so that whenever the flight buff expires (either through NTTG or naturally expiring) you get the burst heal.
That way, NTTG does what it's supposed to do, and Ascension does what it's supposed to do. It doesn't mess with PvE at all, except for the added buff if you place the burst heal in, and PvP had Nailable Ascension, that doesn't remove the buff portion.
Look back to a post I made earlier in this thread :P
Why not is a perfect question.
So basically I bought 3 psionic surges for no reason - though I'm surprised it took this long for something that's been needed since at least alert hit with the new cd redux gear.
I just don't want the change to force a retcon on anything since I'd lose my powertints from the last time I subbed. While a complete retcon is typically nice, when it costs you your power tinting, not so much.
So basically I bought 3 psionic surges for no reason - though I'm surprised it took this long for something that's been needed since at least alert hit with the new cd redux gear.
I just don't want the change to force a retcon on anything since I'd lose my powertints from the last time I subbed. While a complete retcon is typically nice, when it costs you your power tinting, not so much.
I love Psionic Surges! If you dont want them I could take them off your hands
BTW, Have you tried Psionic Surge on Ascension? Does it work?
I also find it silly that NttG removes Ascension altogether. But I see why they did it this way because the flight component is part of the Ascension buff.
The only to have NttG work properly without turning off the whole power in general is to have the AO apply two different buffs (damage and healing boost & the other flight itself) rather than just the one.
lol blame the melees. >_>
all the powers aer starting to lose their special abilities.
Soon ER won't reduce the healing abilities of it's target. :rolleyes:
LOL, yeah, I can see it now...
- Ebon Ruin, no longer debuffs your targets healing powers but instead has a 40% chance to debuff healing and a 60% chance to buff your targets healing by 40% of your main superstat.
I think this change won't effect PvE so much if PTS "Ascension" is after-the-fix thing.
See, thats the thing, it will in some instances like Nemcon V_V, trying to fly away from rampaging guards using ascension? DENIED! :mad:
Trying to kill Grond, want to stop being KB'd as much so you pop ascension, he throws NTTG rocks and you plummet out of the sky.
My builds are meant to be themeatic but able to survive a while in PvP, inevitably I will loose, but I'd at least like to have a chance to survive
IMO, it would be much simpler to make Ascension affected by NTTG via -100 Flight Height, like Psionic Surge does to travel powers.
It seems stupid that a 2 point advantage on a variety of powers can nullify one of your actual power points, totally, with only momentary healing, which in most cases Ascension isnt used that much for healing, rather for distance creation.
I understand the need for Melee players to feel the need to be able to cancel out annoying ascensions, but surely the whole point of ascension is for an assist.
This "fix" is about as sensible as allowing Crippling Challenge to remove Unbreakable.
Or about as ludicrous as allowing Energy Storm to remove Personal Force Field in one maintain...oh wait...it does...
V____________________________________________V
Hopefully they will give out the retcon to existing users (no, I do not use it). Ascension is a nice getaway tool. In fact it is a little too nice. The flight allowed range users to constantly put a distance between themselves and melee toons causing a major disparity between the 2 in pvp. Allowing the flight to be nailed is logical but allowing nail to remove the entire ascension is not. However, guess what, it is no surprise if they left it this way. It is the shortest and easiest way. Look how they fix imbue and backup devices. You call for the nerf, so when the nerf bat swings, it hits hard.
Hopefully they will give out the retcon to existing users (no, I do not use it). Ascension is a nice getaway tool. In fact it is a little too nice. The flight allowed range users to constantly put a distance between themselves and melee toons causing a major disparity between the 2 in pvp. Allowing the flight to be nailed is logical but allowing nail to remove the entire ascension is not. However, guess what, it is no surprise if they left it this way. It is the shortest and easiest way. Look how they fix imbue and backup devices. You call for the nerf, so when the nerf bat swings, it hits hard.
Lesson in history.
Point taken but...when this hits, it's not gonna be pretty.
Even though I never go near PvP for like 99% of the time, I don't mind giving someone a run for their money before getting my butt kicked.
I REALLY HOPE, the Devs listen to this and just allow NTTG to apply a Psionic Surge Style debuff to flight height, as roots already affect Ascension users if they are in range, melee players would be able to pop a few DW's or whatever before Ascension user breaksfree.
Just saying it would be fair if Ascension kept it's flight ability but could be affected by NTTG by being forced to hover just above the ground for AO's duration (15 secs).
Point taken but...when this hits, it's not gonna be pretty.
Even though I never go near PvP for like 99% of the time, I don't mind giving someone a run for their money before getting my butt kicked.
I REALLY HOPE, the Devs listen to this and just allow NTTG to apply a Psionic Surge Style debuff to flight height, as roots already affect Ascension users if they are in range, melee players would be able to pop a few DW's or whatever before Ascension user breaksfree.
Just saying it would be fair if Ascension kept it's flight ability but could be affected by NTTG by being forced to hover just above the ground for AO's duration (15 secs).
Why should Ascension be the only form of travel to keep increased speed/travel ability when NTTG is in effect?
Why should Ascension be the only form of travel to keep increased speed/travel ability when NTTG is in effect?
Because it is an active offensive, because it costs an actual power point, because that is what it is meant to do.
If it kept speed (or halved speed) whilst NTTG was in effect it would balance it out for the following reasons:
1. Melee players could then root foes using ascension successfully without them being able to gain height because they wouldnt be able to fly higher than just above the ground.
2. People using Ascension as a get away would only be limited by height thus allowing the power to still provide some functionality vs NTTG, instead of being totally removed.
Because it is an active offensive, because it costs an actual power point, because that is what it is meant to do.
If it kept speed (or halved speed) whilst NTTG was in effect it would balance it out for the following reasons:
1. Melee players could then root foes using ascension successfully without them being able to gain height because they wouldnt be able to fly higher than just above the ground.
2. People using Ascension as a get away would only be limited by height thus allowing the power to still provide some functionality vs NTTG, instead of being totally removed.
Two issues:
1. You're trying to accomidate a function NTTG shouldn't possess, by taking away the function it should. NTTG shouldn't remove the damage boost or heal boost, but it -should- remove the flight portion.
2. NTTG is supposed to totally remove the flight portion, that's what it's meant to do. Saying it shouldn't remove the flight portion, because flight is what Ascension does, is functionally the same as saying that NTTG shouldn't remove Flight from rocket boots, because that's what rocket boots does. If an effect exists, it's doing what it's supposed to do. If an effect is to remove another effect, then removing the effect is what it's supposed to do.
It doesn't matter if you spend advantage points, or power points, effects have counters. You don't get out of the travel power counter, just because you spent a power point. Let me ask this, I want to suggest an Archery power, sometime in the future, called Glue Arrow. Glue arrow would slow enemies and remove travel powers from enemies, while they're in the Glue patch. Now we're both spending a power point, who's effect is more important, your travel or my travel remover?
The answer is neither, they're both effects and they both apply as they should, and this can be extended to the effect from advantage vs effect from power thought. Effects from Power points are no more or less important in the grand scheme of things than effects from advantage. You don't get to bypass my avoidance from flippin', because your damage comes from a base power point and my avoidance comes from advantage points.
NTTG is supposed to limit travel for a few seconds. Ascension should follow, but it should do so intelligently. NTTG shouldn't remove the other portions of the buff, and the flight shouldn't bypass what NTTG is supposed to do. Namely remove the flight/travel portion.
2. NTTG is supposed to totally remove the flight portion, that's what it's meant to do.
This point could very easily be countered by stating that what NTTG is meant to do is remove Travel Powers. Ascension is not a Travel Power. NTTG does not remove other, non Travel Power, movement effects.
Now, the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do, but since it has a 3+ year history of what it has been meant to do, which does not include removing non Travel Power movement effects, it seems perfectly valid, particularly on PTS, to argue that NTTG shouldn't remove Ascension's flight.
Why should Ascension be the only non Travel Power to be affected by NTTG ?
This point could very easily be countered by stating that what NTTG is meant to do is remove Travel Powers. Ascension is not a Travel Power. NTTG does not remove other, non Travel Power, movement effects.
Now, the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do, but since it has a 3+ year history of what it has been meant to do, which does not include removing non Travel Power movement effects, it seems perfectly valid, particularly on PTS, to argue that NTTG shouldn't remove Ascension's flight.
Why should Ascension be the only non Travel Power to be affected by NTTG ?
Because its overpowered? We've argued this for like, 3 years? Not to say other nontravel power based movement boosts shouldn't be effected either, NTTG minimally needs to induce a large speed resistance on them, if not temporarily remove the effects completely.
This point could very easily be countered by stating that what NTTG is meant to do is remove Travel Powers. Ascension is not a Travel Power. NTTG does not remove other, non Travel Power, movement effects.
Now, the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do, but since it has a 3+ year history of what it has been meant to do, which does not include removing non Travel Power movement effects, it seems perfectly valid, particularly on PTS, to argue that NTTG shouldn't remove Ascension's flight.
Why should Ascension be the only non Travel Power to be affected by NTTG ?
This helped actually.
NTTG doens't just remove the travel portion. It has always removed the effects of the entire power. So splitting it in half wouldn't actually work. NTTG removes flippin' avoidance when it removes the power, if NTTG applies to Ascension then it should hit the whole power. With a caviat...
Ascension is the only free movement travel buff that isn't removed by NTTG. NTTG is intended to be the counter to a specific behavior. Namely boosted kiting and travel speed discrepancies. That's why it should be added to the NTTG hit list.
NTTG removes the entire power, forcing it to be reactivated. Ascension's mechanics don't support complete removal, so instead how about suppressing?
Each effect would be "Under certain circumstances" and only apply when not under the effect of NTTG. Basically NTTG doesn't remove the power, it triggers a boolean that makes the effect no longer apply. This would make Acension fall in line with NTTG as it should, and function the same as every other power that's Nailable. It's "shut off" for the duration of the NTTG effect, as does the other portions of the power, but it "Turns on" by itself, giving the click power a small, unique advantage over other free movement travel enhancing powers, that doesn't allow a behavior that's obviously intended to be counter-able.
An issue. It's quite likely that, as a click power, Ascension can't register effect changes mid-duration, only on activation. That means that a new suppress on x operation would have to be added, allowing click powers to register how effects are changing mid-operation. It would, however, be the closes possible way to apply NTTG to Ascension.
If that can't be done and NTTG must remove, rather than supress for a duration, then the best option is to split the power.
This point could very easily be countered by stating that what NTTG is meant to do is remove Travel Powers. Ascension is not a Travel Power. NTTG does not remove other, non Travel Power, movement effects.
Now, the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do, but since it has a 3+ year history of what it has been meant to do, which does not include removing non Travel Power movement effects, it seems perfectly valid, particularly on PTS, to argue that NTTG shouldn't remove Ascension's flight.
Why should Ascension be the only non Travel Power to be affected by NTTG ?
Your making some big assumptions here by saying NTTG was made specifically to remove travel powers.
I think that its valid to say that NTTG was made to prevent flyers from having air superiority over melee in pvp and to generally prevent running in pvp. Those are the complaints that i remember on the forums around the time that NTTG was added.
The way that the devs went about addressing this was to make NTTG remove travel powers but that does not mean that the intent behind NTTG was limited to travel powers.
Also just because something is left a certain way in a MMO does not imply that the intent of the power. Its far more likely (especially for Cryptic) that that was the best fix that they could come up with at the time or that there were not enough resources scheduled for it.
Lastly, you have to consider that the ppl that originally did NTTG (Ame?) are not here any more, so their intent is irrelevant. Robobo had many intentions for this game as well, but now that Stokeman is here, Robobos intentions are irrelevant.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
NTTG doens't just remove the travel portion. It has always removed the effects of the entire power. So splitting it in half wouldn't actually work. NTTG removes flippin' avoidance when it removes the power, if NTTG applies to Ascension then it should hit the whole power. With a caviat...
Ascension is the only free movement travel buff that isn't removed by NTTG. NTTG is intended to be the counter to a specific behavior. Namely boosted kiting and travel speed discrepancies. That's why it should be added to the NTTG hit list.
NTTG removes the entire power, forcing it to be reactivated. Ascension's mechanics don't support complete removal, so instead how about suppressing?
Each effect would be "Under certain circumstances" and only apply when not under the effect of NTTG. Basically NTTG doesn't remove the power, it triggers a boolean that makes the effect no longer apply. This would make Acension fall in line with NTTG as it should, and function the same as every other power that's Nailable. It's "shut off" for the duration of the NTTG effect, as does the other portions of the power, but it "Turns on" by itself, giving the click power a small, unique advantage over other free movement travel enhancing powers, that doesn't allow a behavior that's obviously intended to be counter-able.
An issue. It's quite likely that, as a click power, Ascension can't register effect changes mid-duration, only on activation. That means that a new suppress on x operation would have to be added, allowing click powers to register how effects are changing mid-operation. It would, however, be the closes possible way to apply NTTG to Ascension.
If that can't be done and NTTG must remove, rather than supress for a duration, then the best option is to split the power.
Actually, you are wrong, the advantages you state are only active when the travel power is active, NTTG deactivates the travel power, which in turn deactivates the advantage, in MOST cases. Versatility proves my point, because it is refreshed while the travel power is active, it has its own independant duration, and Versatility is not turned off by NTTG.
Your making some big assumptions here by saying NTTG was made specifically to remove travel powers.
Im afraid that I disagree. If the only function that NTTG has had since it was created was to remove TP's I don't think that it is a big assumption to say that such was its reason for being created.
I think that its valid to say that NTTG was made to prevent flyers from having air superiority over melee in pvp
Except that it was not designed in a fashion to do so. Ranged attacks deliver NTTG from further away than melee attacks do. Effective ranged attacks can be used from outside the range of melee attacks/lunges. If NTTG was intended to prevent flyers (presumably ranged combatants) from having air superiority then it would function even when the ranged combatant was out of the melee's attack range. NTTG, as implemented, actually preserves (if not outright exacerbates) the air superiority of ranged over melee.
and to generally prevent running in pvp. Those are the complaints that i remember on the forums around the time that NTTG was added.
To be honest I don't remember exactly when NTTG was added. I didnt start PvPing until the end of 2009 and seem to remember it being in place then. My apologies if my memory of the time frame is off. Still, NTTG did one thing and one thing only, remove travel powers.
The way that the devs went about addressing this was to make NTTG remove travel powers but that does not mean that the intent behind NTTG was limited to travel powers.
We do not have any statement of intent on the part of the devs of that time here. WHat we do have is one, and only one, piece of solid evidence...what does NTTG do. It removes TP's. Anything beyond that is purest speculation. We know that NTTG was designed in such a fashion as to remove TP's and nothing else. You speculate that it might have been for other reasons above and beyond that.
Also just because something is left a certain way in a MMO does not imply that the intent of the power. Its far more likely (especially for Cryptic) that that was the best fix that they could come up with at the time or that there were not enough resources scheduled for it.
Again speculation (that I do not necessarily disagree with).
Lastly, you have to consider that the ppl that originally did NTTG (Ame?) are not here any more, so their intent is irrelevant. Robobo had many intentions for this game as well, but now that Stokeman is here, Robobos intentions are irrelevant.
In the post you quoted I stated that the, "the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do," specifically because I understand that games change as do developer intentions. That doesn't alter the validity of, on the test server, arguing for a power's existing purpose to remain intact.
Keep in mind that I am not arguing against the ability for NTTG to remove Ascension, merely against the logic and speculation being used to justify it.
Blademaster gave the best possible answer, "Because it is OP." Because the game would be better overall with the change.
NTTG doens't just remove the travel portion. It has always removed the effects of the entire power. So splitting it in half wouldn't actually work. NTTG removes flippin' avoidance when it removes the power, if NTTG applies to Ascension then it should hit the whole power. With a caviat...
Ascension is the only free movement travel buff that isn't removed by NTTG. NTTG is intended to be the counter to a specific behavior. Namely boosted kiting and travel speed discrepancies. That's why it should be added to the NTTG hit list.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "free movement," But there are other powers that provide the, "specific behavior," you refer to. Back when Dragon's Wrath and/or Dragon's Claw played a significant part in the PvP meta I used Breakaway Shot (fast movement, no cooldown) to kite indefinitely. (while doing damage). NTTG had, and still has, no effect on that movement.
NTTG does not seem to be intended to remove, "boosted kiting," or it would remove Versatility and/or specs that boost one's ability to kite.
I am fully in agreement that having the ability to counter ascension is VERY important to PvP. I just disagree with the logic of this particular argument.
Should Ascensions Flight buff be effected by nailed? Yes. Why? Because it's OP and unbalances PvP.
Should Ascensions Damage/Healing Buff be effected by nailed? No. Why? It's just silly, you would have to make every other Active Defense be turned off from nailed just to keep balance(which is all just crazy talk.)
Should Acrobatics Versatility buff be able to stay on through being nailed? No. Why? Just like Ascension is now, it's very much OP and unbalances PvP. What do I propose? As mentioned earlier I believe the NttG debuff SHOULD ONLY NULLIFY traveling type abilities, once the NttG debuff is over your powers SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY REACTIVATE(No more having to retoggle travel powers.) To make up for this I suggest making NttG's debuff a smidge longer and still apply freedom afterwards of course.
Should Vapor Forms Flight buff be effected by nailed? No. Why? Any transformations should be the ONE and only exception to the rule as the power itself keeps you from using any other abilities. It was talked about turning Ascension into a transform. I'm still open to the idea myself, but it AND Vapor form would have to be buffed considerably to make up for not being able to use other abilities.
Keep in mind that I am not arguing against the ability for NTTG to remove Ascension, merely against the logic and speculation being used to justify it.
We do not have any statement of intent on the part of the devs of that time here. WHat we do have is one, and only one, piece of solid evidence...what does NTTG do. It removes TP's. Anything beyond that is purest speculation. We know that NTTG was designed in such a fashion as to remove TP's and nothing else. You speculate that it might have been for other reasons above and beyond that.
Your speculating at least as much as i am. The only difference is i remember when NTTG was added and the conversations that led to its addition. These conversations are NOT speculation. Obviously these post are dead because of the new forums and again, im not sure that the intent behind NTTG at the time even matters now that we have different devs.
/shrug
I feel the same way about NTTG. I also feel that your logic of limiting a powers implied function to the way it was coded is thin.
I guess we agree on whats important though.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Actually, you are wrong, the advantages you state are only active when the travel power is active, NTTG deactivates the travel power, which in turn deactivates the advantage, in MOST cases. Versatility proves my point, because it is refreshed while the travel power is active, it has its own independant duration, and Versatility is not turned off by NTTG.
You don't lose existing stacks of versatility, but you don't gain any new stacks. The ability to gain new stacks is lost when the power is turned off. Versatility (the bonus) isn't the effect of the advantage, the ability to gain Versatility is. So, while NTTG doesn't remove existing versatility, it does remove the ability to gain versatility, which is what you buy with your advantage points. So it is both the travel part, and extra effect being removed with NTTG. Just like with Flippin' and Swinging, Superspeed and Impact, and the other travel powers +their advantages.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "free movement," But there are other powers that provide the, "specific behavior," you refer to. Back when Dragon's Wrath and/or Dragon's Claw played a significant part in the PvP meta I used Breakaway Shot (fast movement, no cooldown) to kite indefinitely. (while doing damage). NTTG had, and still has, no effect on that movement.
NTTG does not seem to be intended to remove, "boosted kiting," or it would remove Versatility and/or specs that boost one's ability to kite.
I am fully in agreement that having the ability to counter ascension is VERY important to PvP. I just disagree with the logic of this particular argument.
What I mean by free movement is, lunge and reverse-lunge powers provide predetermined movement, based on enemy position. The breakaway shot kiting is a creative Idea though, though in most maps I'd try to run you into a corner or, if dueling, outside the bubble. It's something that an opponent can manipulate, whereas Ascension provides no way for a player to affect it. The counter to breakaway shot is, AFAIK, it's movement from the enemy. If you spam that out, I can run you wherever -I- want. You are not free in your ability to move, I have imput by my own positioning. Ascension let's you move wherever you want, at speed, without counter. I.E. it's completely free movement. It's the only thing that does so, outside standard travel powers, that I can think of.
And really, I could be freaking insane, but that's the reason behind what I'm saying. It could be nonsense that happens to be on the right side of the converstation, but I think it makes sense.
1. You're trying to accomidate a function NTTG shouldn't possess, by taking away the function it should. NTTG shouldn't remove the damage boost or heal boost, but it -should- remove the flight portion.
2. NTTG is supposed to totally remove the flight portion, that's what it's meant to do. Saying it shouldn't remove the flight portion, because flight is what Ascension does, is functionally the same as saying that NTTG shouldn't remove Flight from rocket boots, because that's what rocket boots does. If an effect exists, it's doing what it's supposed to do. If an effect is to remove another effect, then removing the effect is what it's supposed to do.
Not seeing why NTTG cant just supress the flight on Ascension instead of totally removing the buff...
I think that Ascension SHOULD remain with a flight portion after NTTG but perhaps a heavily snared version which has -100 flight height.
There would be no point to use NTTG on Ascension if it only heavy snared. The Version I am talking about is so that you'd be able to super snare Ascension users and they'd be stuck a few cm's above the ground, like what Psionic Surge is doing.
Since it is clear either NTTG's cancelling effects are being modified or Ascension is being tagged as some sort of power-travel hybrid perhaps being tagged as movement.
IMO, the main problem with Ascension is that it allows 100ft powers to be fired from them. That is what is causing an issue from what I see, people FCing, ERing etc and unbalancing PvP.
Anyway, I think you'd need some sort of Crippling Challenge Resistance if you really wanted to balance PvP some more.
I do agree that Ascension should be affected by NTTG, but total buff removal is uncalled for, NTTG shouldnt be able to remove that damage/healing buff granted by Ascension.
The way I see it, allow Ascension to be affected by NTTG for the flight portion, but allow for a 3 point advantage called Divine Calling which allows them to fly with -100 Flight Height whilst under NTTG affects, so they still are stuck to the ground but:
Divine Calling - You can defy the power holding you back and move with relative speed.- Advantage.
+Whilst under the effects of Nailed To The Ground, you can still fly but just above the ground.
+This Buff lasts for 10 seconds.
+ You still retain 25% of Ascension's Flight Speed. (so like a little faster than in combat speed flight)
- Whilst this buff is active you cannot use 100ft attacks as the strain is too much.
- Flight Height is set to -100
I'd like something like that to be a counter, should probably be a 3 point advantage, so at least you can sort of counter the effects of NTTG, but with a price.
You use Resurgence.
Regeneration heals you for 1440
Angelclown uses Ebon Ruin.
Regeneration heals you for 720
Angelclown uses Ebon Ruin.
You are defeated.
Powers: Nailed to the Ground, Ascension Rank 3, Seraphim Rank 3
Using Nailed to the Ground against a target using Ascension also apply 10 seconds of Energy Form Cancel, removing test target's Seraphim as well as Ascension. Unsure if this is intended behavior, or a side-effect of the Ascension being removed.
Powers: Nailed to the Ground, Ascension Rank 3, Seraphim Rank 3
Using Nailed to the Ground against a target using Ascension also apply 10 seconds of Energy Form Cancel, removing test target's Seraphim as well as Ascension. Unsure if this is intended behavior, or a side-effect of the Ascension being removed.
I'm hoping that's unintended as Ascension would be the only active offense that could be removed with NTTG. A possible fix would be to split Ascension into two buffs, one which provides the flight (and can be removed with NTTG) and the other which is the actual energy form.
Either that or we need to make every active offense removable with NTTG. Otherwise it's just not fair.
Powers: Nailed to the Ground, Ascension Rank 3, Seraphim Rank 3
Using Nailed to the Ground against a target using Ascension also apply 10 seconds of Energy Form Cancel, removing test target's Seraphim as well as Ascension. Unsure if this is intended behavior, or a side-effect of the Ascension being removed.
I'd assume its unintended as the whole issue is eliminating the guaranteed flight - however who knows if it makes it to live in this state....
I'm hoping that's unintended as Ascension would be the only active offense that could be removed with NTTG. A possible fix would be to split Ascension into two buffs, one which provides the flight (and can be removed with NTTG) and the other which is the actual energy form.
Either that or we need to make every active offense removable with NTTG. Otherwise it's just not fair.
So.. I'm back to CO.. understandably not alot has changed (Holidays and all) but if you could let me know what's next so I can adequately plan my playtime, I'd appreciate it.
(Not to sound rude or self centered, but my entire storyline is on hold until telepathy powers hit live so here's hoping we're ready to finalize those in the next week or two. Until then I can't really look forward to logging in.)
I'm really REALLY hoping you are holding on to a massive expansion that you'll announce this week but that's alot of wishful thinking
Comments
Also occurs with sonic device and many of the other 'On Next Hit' buffs.
Deliciously nutritious!
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Look back to a post I made earlier in this thread :P
Why not is a perfect question.
Heh, smart guy. :cool:
I just don't want the change to force a retcon on anything since I'd lose my powertints from the last time I subbed. While a complete retcon is typically nice, when it costs you your power tinting, not so much.
I love Psionic Surges! If you dont want them I could take them off your hands
BTW, Have you tried Psionic Surge on Ascension? Does it work?
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Bye-bye my Ascension.
BTW, does this mean Ascension is no more "Active Offense" ?
I entered PTS but didn't feel any change (Just cool down got bit changed.).
Well this change (thanks to PvP again V_V) sort of hurts a healer build of mine
I hope Ascension users get a free retcon once this change goes LIVE.
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Think like this, we got extra Heal. xD
I think this change won't effect PvE so much if PTS "Ascension" is after-the-fix thing.
lol blame the melees. >_>
all the powers aer starting to lose their special abilities.
Soon ER won't reduce the healing abilities of it's target. :rolleyes:
@Scrizz :biggrin:
The only to have NttG work properly without turning off the whole power in general is to have the AO apply two different buffs (damage and healing boost & the other flight itself) rather than just the one.
LOL, yeah, I can see it now...
- Ebon Ruin, no longer debuffs your targets healing powers but instead has a 40% chance to debuff healing and a 60% chance to buff your targets healing by 40% of your main superstat.
lmao
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See, thats the thing, it will in some instances like Nemcon V_V, trying to fly away from rampaging guards using ascension? DENIED! :mad:
Trying to kill Grond, want to stop being KB'd as much so you pop ascension, he throws NTTG rocks and you plummet out of the sky.
My builds are meant to be themeatic but able to survive a while in PvP, inevitably I will loose, but I'd at least like to have a chance to survive
IMO, it would be much simpler to make Ascension affected by NTTG via -100 Flight Height, like Psionic Surge does to travel powers.
It seems stupid that a 2 point advantage on a variety of powers can nullify one of your actual power points, totally, with only momentary healing, which in most cases Ascension isnt used that much for healing, rather for distance creation.
I understand the need for Melee players to feel the need to be able to cancel out annoying ascensions, but surely the whole point of ascension is for an assist.
This "fix" is about as sensible as allowing Crippling Challenge to remove Unbreakable.
Or about as ludicrous as allowing Energy Storm to remove Personal Force Field in one maintain...oh wait...it does...
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Lesson in history.
Point taken but...when this hits, it's not gonna be pretty.
Even though I never go near PvP for like 99% of the time, I don't mind giving someone a run for their money before getting my butt kicked.
I REALLY HOPE, the Devs listen to this and just allow NTTG to apply a Psionic Surge Style debuff to flight height, as roots already affect Ascension users if they are in range, melee players would be able to pop a few DW's or whatever before Ascension user breaksfree.
Just saying it would be fair if Ascension kept it's flight ability but could be affected by NTTG by being forced to hover just above the ground for AO's duration (15 secs).
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Why should Ascension be the only form of travel to keep increased speed/travel ability when NTTG is in effect?
Because it is an active offensive, because it costs an actual power point, because that is what it is meant to do.
If it kept speed (or halved speed) whilst NTTG was in effect it would balance it out for the following reasons:
1. Melee players could then root foes using ascension successfully without them being able to gain height because they wouldnt be able to fly higher than just above the ground.
2. People using Ascension as a get away would only be limited by height thus allowing the power to still provide some functionality vs NTTG, instead of being totally removed.
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Two issues:
1. You're trying to accomidate a function NTTG shouldn't possess, by taking away the function it should. NTTG shouldn't remove the damage boost or heal boost, but it -should- remove the flight portion.
2. NTTG is supposed to totally remove the flight portion, that's what it's meant to do. Saying it shouldn't remove the flight portion, because flight is what Ascension does, is functionally the same as saying that NTTG shouldn't remove Flight from rocket boots, because that's what rocket boots does. If an effect exists, it's doing what it's supposed to do. If an effect is to remove another effect, then removing the effect is what it's supposed to do.
It doesn't matter if you spend advantage points, or power points, effects have counters. You don't get out of the travel power counter, just because you spent a power point. Let me ask this, I want to suggest an Archery power, sometime in the future, called Glue Arrow. Glue arrow would slow enemies and remove travel powers from enemies, while they're in the Glue patch. Now we're both spending a power point, who's effect is more important, your travel or my travel remover?
The answer is neither, they're both effects and they both apply as they should, and this can be extended to the effect from advantage vs effect from power thought. Effects from Power points are no more or less important in the grand scheme of things than effects from advantage. You don't get to bypass my avoidance from flippin', because your damage comes from a base power point and my avoidance comes from advantage points.
NTTG is supposed to limit travel for a few seconds. Ascension should follow, but it should do so intelligently. NTTG shouldn't remove the other portions of the buff, and the flight shouldn't bypass what NTTG is supposed to do. Namely remove the flight/travel portion.
This point could very easily be countered by stating that what NTTG is meant to do is remove Travel Powers. Ascension is not a Travel Power. NTTG does not remove other, non Travel Power, movement effects.
Now, the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do, but since it has a 3+ year history of what it has been meant to do, which does not include removing non Travel Power movement effects, it seems perfectly valid, particularly on PTS, to argue that NTTG shouldn't remove Ascension's flight.
Why should Ascension be the only non Travel Power to be affected by NTTG ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Because its overpowered? We've argued this for like, 3 years? Not to say other nontravel power based movement boosts shouldn't be effected either, NTTG minimally needs to induce a large speed resistance on them, if not temporarily remove the effects completely.
This helped actually.
NTTG doens't just remove the travel portion. It has always removed the effects of the entire power. So splitting it in half wouldn't actually work. NTTG removes flippin' avoidance when it removes the power, if NTTG applies to Ascension then it should hit the whole power. With a caviat...
Ascension is the only free movement travel buff that isn't removed by NTTG. NTTG is intended to be the counter to a specific behavior. Namely boosted kiting and travel speed discrepancies. That's why it should be added to the NTTG hit list.
NTTG removes the entire power, forcing it to be reactivated. Ascension's mechanics don't support complete removal, so instead how about suppressing?
Each effect would be "Under certain circumstances" and only apply when not under the effect of NTTG. Basically NTTG doesn't remove the power, it triggers a boolean that makes the effect no longer apply. This would make Acension fall in line with NTTG as it should, and function the same as every other power that's Nailable. It's "shut off" for the duration of the NTTG effect, as does the other portions of the power, but it "Turns on" by itself, giving the click power a small, unique advantage over other free movement travel enhancing powers, that doesn't allow a behavior that's obviously intended to be counter-able.
An issue. It's quite likely that, as a click power, Ascension can't register effect changes mid-duration, only on activation. That means that a new suppress on x operation would have to be added, allowing click powers to register how effects are changing mid-operation. It would, however, be the closes possible way to apply NTTG to Ascension.
If that can't be done and NTTG must remove, rather than supress for a duration, then the best option is to split the power.
Your making some big assumptions here by saying NTTG was made specifically to remove travel powers.
I think that its valid to say that NTTG was made to prevent flyers from having air superiority over melee in pvp and to generally prevent running in pvp. Those are the complaints that i remember on the forums around the time that NTTG was added.
The way that the devs went about addressing this was to make NTTG remove travel powers but that does not mean that the intent behind NTTG was limited to travel powers.
Also just because something is left a certain way in a MMO does not imply that the intent of the power. Its far more likely (especially for Cryptic) that that was the best fix that they could come up with at the time or that there were not enough resources scheduled for it.
Lastly, you have to consider that the ppl that originally did NTTG (Ame?) are not here any more, so their intent is irrelevant. Robobo had many intentions for this game as well, but now that Stokeman is here, Robobos intentions are irrelevant.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
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Actually, you are wrong, the advantages you state are only active when the travel power is active, NTTG deactivates the travel power, which in turn deactivates the advantage, in MOST cases. Versatility proves my point, because it is refreshed while the travel power is active, it has its own independant duration, and Versatility is not turned off by NTTG.
In the post you quoted I stated that the, "the devs may be changing what NTTG is meant to do," specifically because I understand that games change as do developer intentions. That doesn't alter the validity of, on the test server, arguing for a power's existing purpose to remain intact.
Keep in mind that I am not arguing against the ability for NTTG to remove Ascension, merely against the logic and speculation being used to justify it.
Blademaster gave the best possible answer, "Because it is OP." Because the game would be better overall with the change.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "free movement," But there are other powers that provide the, "specific behavior," you refer to. Back when Dragon's Wrath and/or Dragon's Claw played a significant part in the PvP meta I used Breakaway Shot (fast movement, no cooldown) to kite indefinitely. (while doing damage). NTTG had, and still has, no effect on that movement.
NTTG does not seem to be intended to remove, "boosted kiting," or it would remove Versatility and/or specs that boost one's ability to kite.
I am fully in agreement that having the ability to counter ascension is VERY important to PvP. I just disagree with the logic of this particular argument.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Should Ascensions Damage/Healing Buff be effected by nailed? No. Why? It's just silly, you would have to make every other Active Defense be turned off from nailed just to keep balance(which is all just crazy talk.)
Should Acrobatics Versatility buff be able to stay on through being nailed? No. Why? Just like Ascension is now, it's very much OP and unbalances PvP. What do I propose? As mentioned earlier I believe the NttG debuff SHOULD ONLY NULLIFY traveling type abilities, once the NttG debuff is over your powers SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY REACTIVATE(No more having to retoggle travel powers.) To make up for this I suggest making NttG's debuff a smidge longer and still apply freedom afterwards of course.
Should Vapor Forms Flight buff be effected by nailed? No. Why? Any transformations should be the ONE and only exception to the rule as the power itself keeps you from using any other abilities. It was talked about turning Ascension into a transform. I'm still open to the idea myself, but it AND Vapor form would have to be buffed considerably to make up for not being able to use other abilities.
I guess we agree on whats important though.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
You don't lose existing stacks of versatility, but you don't gain any new stacks. The ability to gain new stacks is lost when the power is turned off. Versatility (the bonus) isn't the effect of the advantage, the ability to gain Versatility is. So, while NTTG doesn't remove existing versatility, it does remove the ability to gain versatility, which is what you buy with your advantage points. So it is both the travel part, and extra effect being removed with NTTG. Just like with Flippin' and Swinging, Superspeed and Impact, and the other travel powers +their advantages.
What I mean by free movement is, lunge and reverse-lunge powers provide predetermined movement, based on enemy position. The breakaway shot kiting is a creative Idea though, though in most maps I'd try to run you into a corner or, if dueling, outside the bubble. It's something that an opponent can manipulate, whereas Ascension provides no way for a player to affect it. The counter to breakaway shot is, AFAIK, it's movement from the enemy. If you spam that out, I can run you wherever -I- want. You are not free in your ability to move, I have imput by my own positioning. Ascension let's you move wherever you want, at speed, without counter. I.E. it's completely free movement. It's the only thing that does so, outside standard travel powers, that I can think of.
And really, I could be freaking insane, but that's the reason behind what I'm saying. It could be nonsense that happens to be on the right side of the converstation, but I think it makes sense.
Not seeing why NTTG cant just supress the flight on Ascension instead of totally removing the buff...
I think that Ascension SHOULD remain with a flight portion after NTTG but perhaps a heavily snared version which has -100 flight height.
There would be no point to use NTTG on Ascension if it only heavy snared. The Version I am talking about is so that you'd be able to super snare Ascension users and they'd be stuck a few cm's above the ground, like what Psionic Surge is doing.
Since it is clear either NTTG's cancelling effects are being modified or Ascension is being tagged as some sort of power-travel hybrid perhaps being tagged as movement.
IMO, the main problem with Ascension is that it allows 100ft powers to be fired from them. That is what is causing an issue from what I see, people FCing, ERing etc and unbalancing PvP.
Anyway, I think you'd need some sort of Crippling Challenge Resistance if you really wanted to balance PvP some more.
I do agree that Ascension should be affected by NTTG, but total buff removal is uncalled for, NTTG shouldnt be able to remove that damage/healing buff granted by Ascension.
The way I see it, allow Ascension to be affected by NTTG for the flight portion, but allow for a 3 point advantage called Divine Calling which allows them to fly with -100 Flight Height whilst under NTTG affects, so they still are stuck to the ground but:
Divine Calling - You can defy the power holding you back and move with relative speed.- Advantage.
+Whilst under the effects of Nailed To The Ground, you can still fly but just above the ground.
+This Buff lasts for 10 seconds.
+ You still retain 25% of Ascension's Flight Speed. (so like a little faster than in combat speed flight)
- Whilst this buff is active you cannot use 100ft attacks as the strain is too much.
- Flight Height is set to -100
I'd like something like that to be a counter, should probably be a 3 point advantage, so at least you can sort of counter the effects of NTTG, but with a price.
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:biggrin:
@Scrizz :biggrin:
lol, I'd just feel sorry for PVE Mobs xD
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Regeneration heals you for 1440
Angelclown uses Ebon Ruin.
Regeneration heals you for 720
Angelclown uses Ebon Ruin.
You are defeated.
Players: Okay...
----
Angelclown uses Ascension.
Chunkymcbiceps uses mighty leap.
Angelclown takes 300 damage from falling.
Players: RAGE :O
Powers: Nailed to the Ground, Ascension Rank 3, Seraphim Rank 3
Using Nailed to the Ground against a target using Ascension also apply 10 seconds of Energy Form Cancel, removing test target's Seraphim as well as Ascension. Unsure if this is intended behavior, or a side-effect of the Ascension being removed.
I'm hoping that's unintended as Ascension would be the only active offense that could be removed with NTTG. A possible fix would be to split Ascension into two buffs, one which provides the flight (and can be removed with NTTG) and the other which is the actual energy form.
Either that or we need to make every active offense removable with NTTG. Otherwise it's just not fair.
I'd assume its unintended as the whole issue is eliminating the guaranteed flight - however who knows if it makes it to live in this state....
I agree with the Ascension suggestion.
(Not to sound rude or self centered, but my entire storyline is on hold until telepathy powers hit live so here's hoping we're ready to finalize those in the next week or two. Until then I can't really look forward to logging in.)
I'm really REALLY hoping you are holding on to a massive expansion that you'll announce this week but that's alot of wishful thinking