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The WHOLE PROBLEM with Champions Online
underchicken
Posts: 259 Arc User
I've been saying this for quite a while now and it's already something everyone is very aware of. But here it is...
Instead of placing the proper amount of employee's and resources into making this game better, all Champions Online seems to get is half ****'d lazy money making schemes(not saying the work that the few people we have working on Champs is bad, just that it's all they are humanly capable of simply isn't enough with there current numbers.)
Champions Online as it stands is unable to grow as an MMO should, and with that I don't believe it will live much longer. I don't plan on putting another cent into a game that I might not even be able to play a year from now.
These are the sad facts, how will you respond Cryptic/PWE?
trailturtle wrote: »The rough fact of the matter is that making something like Champs' character creation is expensive in both time and resources. Replicating that for vehicles -- especially when the geometry for vehicles would honestly be much more variable than for characters -- just isn't feasible, it would have taken much longer and taken many more devs.
As it stands, this degree of customization was something that could be done by the team without needing them to spend months (years?) without any other releases.
Instead of placing the proper amount of employee's and resources into making this game better, all Champions Online seems to get is half ****'d lazy money making schemes(not saying the work that the few people we have working on Champs is bad, just that it's all they are humanly capable of simply isn't enough with there current numbers.)
Champions Online as it stands is unable to grow as an MMO should, and with that I don't believe it will live much longer. I don't plan on putting another cent into a game that I might not even be able to play a year from now.
These are the sad facts, how will you respond Cryptic/PWE?
Post edited by underchicken on
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/e raises hand like Captain Kirk at the end of Star Trek V
How do you plan on appropriating the proper amount of employees and resources without more money?
/e raises hand...
How do they expect to get my money if all they produce is gamble bags that I have an adamant moral/ethical position against buying? It has been months since I have seen something in the Z store that I would consider buying and all that time, my stipend has continued to accumulate making it more and more unlikely that they will produce enough quality merchandise to burn through my stipend and convince me to spend actual money. For that matter, due to a continued lack of new story driven content, I have been more and more disinclined to even log in. And if I'm not even logging in, why would I bother spending even my stipend much less any actual money.
The Forumite formerly known as Galeforce.
If you want my money, there is a fairly simple way to get it since I am fairly free with how I spend it. First, produce something I consider to be worth buying. Second, offer it up for sale. Don't lock it behind a gambling scam. If I want something, I am perfectly happy to pay for it. But I will not purchase a CHANCE to get it, When I pay money, I have a perfectly logical right to expect to get what I want.
Let me turn the question back on you. How do you plan on keeping subscribers if you don't spend any money on content?
I honestly don't think that keeping subscribers is all that much of a goal anymore. I think that the emphasis is on microtransactions and other staples of various F2P business models.
Consider how much has been added to the game as included in the value of a subscription, something that specifically increases that value, over the course of this year ?
Now consider how much has been added that must be purchased as a separate transaction for subscribers and Silver players alike ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Keeping subscribers may no longer be a goal, but I'm fairly sure there is no business model in the world in which losing paying customers is anything other than counterproductive...
Then I'll be (not TV's) frank: Its not your money or my money that they're expecting.
As a soon-to-be ex-City of Heroes player, I'll just say that more content is nowhere near the magic money bullet. New content is good and neccessary, but its not going to be your money maker. Not in this market.
Let's face it, about 90% of the money we poor into CO to see it thrive into something more get's spent into making NWO and whatever else Cryptic is working on next. This business play of their's is one frigid approach. One that will turn away people from MMO's entirely in the long run. I've already seen several folks saying they won't be touching NWO just because of how this game has been treated. How is this a good business plan?
Brick_McDuggins in game.
Not exactly. It's based on customer "churn." Churn is new players coming and old players going. If new players statistically spend more money (probably based on the "new and shiny and wow" factors) than someone that's been here a few months and possibly stops spending, then the company will obviously shift resources to the new, shiny, wow stuff, since people will obviously buy that stuff, and then stop spending/leave.
I'm familiar with the concept; where it fails is that, in alienating long-time subscribers, you generate negative publicity for yourself. Negative publicity may generate some small amount of new business, but not nearly as much as good publicity...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
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Except that then the practice becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when the focus shifts entirely towards getting the players they don't have while simultaneously ignoring and neglecting the ones they do have. If there is little or nothing in the game for me ("me" refering to any veteran player and not just me personally), and longstanding issues consistently get ignored in favor of a fast buck, why should I stick around and spend money in it? And further more if I've already seen how Cryptic/PW treats its loyal, long term players in the long run here, why should I go and spent (i.e. waste) my money on any of their other games if I already know what I'm likely to get (or not get)?
In focusing on the players/costumers they don't have at the expense of those they do, they're loosing a costumer they DO have in me, and I'm sure in others as well. I for one do not intend to spend money in any other Cryptic/PW games at all (and I'm thinking of NW* specifically)
Also (not directed at smackwell), this whole idea that you got to throw money at them to support this game is a fallacy. We (veteran players again) have been throwing money at this game for YEARS. I'm confident that every single regular poster on these forums has spent HUNDREDS of dollars on this game, and I'm not just talking about subs, but about cash shop stuff as well. I have personally spent more money on this game than I have ever spent on any computer game in my life--bar none, NONE.
When do they have enough? Granted, I understand that this game does not have the player base (and by extention the costumer base) of bigger games with bigger budgets. But even so to pretend that they don't have money (while I don't necessarily think that they're rich) is disingenuous. I've spent more money on this game than any other I have played in my life, not just because I wanted to and was able, but because they effectively charge more money as well, since its not just the subs, but also the extensive amount of stuff they have in the cash shop (with even more now that they've added vehicles to the list--and gambling scam items as well).
So where is all the progress from all the money those of us that have been "supporting" this game all these years have been going then? Cuz if "you got to give them money if you want them to add nice stuff" is true, a LOT of us have been giving them a LOT of money for a long time. Why is it that I can buy a WHOLE new game with alternate leveling paths and a bunch of other stuff for under $60 and get a great value without ever even having to pay a sub after that (I'm looking at GW2) yet the $300 I spent on a LTS here, plus full year of monthly subs and hundreds of dollars on cash shop crap gives me less?
How much, exactly, do each of our supposedly minimal player base have to pay individually to finally get a real expansion on this game with zones, alternate leveling paths, repeatable content that isnt a single tank-n-spank fight in a single square room and for them to get around fixing broken stuff (including power balance)?
*which is a D&D game and as such totally targeted at me given I played D&D and come from a PnP background originally--yet I do not intend to play it at all
The players.
I'm sure if you'd have a talk with their marketing and business analysts, they'd probably tell you that the publicity doesn't hurt their churn rate much, if at all.
The problem with arguing things like this is that we're all speculating with theoretical numbers. To you, the consumer, it just doesn't make sense, but to them, the guys counting money, it makes perfect sense, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
Why should you stick around? Good question. The answer is probably that they don't care if you do or don't. Let's say for every longtime customer still spending a good amount of money in the game, there's another hundred spending a lot more than you. Why keep you around if they can at least maintain the churn rate? Again, the answer to all this is in the numbers that we don't know.
I'm guessing, but this is probably part of the business strategy. Take a small loss while taking in a much bigger gain.
Honestly, I think they take all the money earned from Champs, funnel enough back into it to put out more stuff that people will have to use real money for, and the rest goes to the rest of the games. Once again, I don't know anything, but it's just how it looks to me.
I'm betting there isn't an answer because it's just not in the cards. Not unless the game blows up to gigantic proportions, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Wow, I don't think I've ever made such a negative post about Champs before.
I'd call it "realistic" before I'd call it negative.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
Also "sad" and, referring to the business strategy itself, "short-sighted" and "money-grubbing" and "despicable" and "villainous." But then, I'm an English teacher who deals regularly with students who play MMOs and often ask me my opinion of such games and what games I think are worth spending time and money in. What do I know?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I should clarify: I use the words villainous and despicable not as mere hyperbole, but with exactitude: the tactics displayed by Cryptic/PWE are exactly the sort of tactics used by villains in a comic book. The fact that the practices are commonplace does not make them right or proper.
JonSills, I normally agree with you; you usually seem like a well-balanced and not too-self-aggrandizing sort of fellow. Your recent apologist attitude to a system that you admit you haven't invested in at all, however, is sort of hypocritical. Cryptic took our money. They then gimped the rides we bought without warning and without reasonable recompense. People- myself included- are upset. And you have the gall to tell us to just get over it? If that is really your message, then, please, for the love of heaven, just shut up.
It just seems that right now, this VERY month there is a chance to grab a possibly sizable number of players who like the genre and have only 2 options. Co wins on customization, but having been there 8 years, and gotten something of a feel for the pulse of at least some of the community, the morbid amount of content is going to repel people looking for a home in short order. Congrats, you saved on overhead, you also have horrible word of mouth and nobody new to buy keys. this isnt about giving us everything for nothing, its about the drastic lack of new content relative to the competitors on the market,. I lost one mmo, but it lasted 8 years and produced a relatively smooth flow of content, do you really expect that the current setup will maintain a population that will last 5 more years? I do not want to move again.
And a comic-book villain would have either taken your vehicle entire without recompense, or made sure the modules you added had explosives and would blow you out of the sky the first time you tried to use them. Making your vehicle work in such a fashion that it no longer disables the very system it's running on is hardly "villainous".
As for "apologist" - no, I merely call for a sense of perspective. The game today is precisely the same as the game last week, save that if you own a Prototype Hawkwing Jet, it's been replaced by the finished-model Hawkwing Jet (except that the weapons, while perhaps not as powerful as they were, are still supposedly better than the ones you can purchase for a new Jet). Amazingly, this addition didn't even break the code; I was expecting system collapses until sometime Tuesday afternoon at the least, but all seems to be running smoothly. (Knock on silicon, of course.) To hear the forums carrying on, you'd think this minor nerf to speed rendered the Jets less useful than the garbage truck in Grand Theft Auto IV (which at least has the mass to ram things).
I protest the very existence of Lockboxes, as always, but in doing so I am keenly aware of the Quixotic nature of doing so, as apparently enough people purchase the keys to make this a significant monetizing factor.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Hopefully some of that money actually goes to this game sometimes in the next year and not just to NWO.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
THAT'S the key to success right there! Make your customers happy and your customers will make you RICH! Not because of the money those individual customers spend, but because of the new business they bring you. People love to talk and will talk about anything that influences them, for the positive or for the negative. If they like a product, they will recommend it to their friends. You know its true, when was the last time you saw a movie that you REALLY enjoyed and did not tell your friends about it? If they do not like a product, they will warn their friends away from it.
The Forumite formerly known as Galeforce.
If you want my money, there is a fairly simple way to get it since I am fairly free with how I spend it. First, produce something I consider to be worth buying. Second, offer it up for sale. Don't lock it behind a gambling scam. If I want something, I am perfectly happy to pay for it. But I will not purchase a CHANCE to get it, When I pay money, I have a perfectly logical right to expect to get what I want.
The only reason the keys and bags are a monetizing factor at all is because that is all PWE has been pushing since they took over.
Do you not think actual new content, the meat and potatoes of MMOs, wouldn't be a monetizing factor if it were offered?
I actually addressed this in another thread:
And, yes, I did purchase a prototype; in fact, I purchased several. For exactly that reason, I feel that I am entitled to a degree of anger- yes, anger- at the way Cryptic has mishandled this transition. I especially feel that because we were told that we would be compensated for being the early adopters for this mechanic and we have not been compensated; we have been sounds-like-spat-upon from a very great height.
I don't get it... You ask that question but the answer is obviously no, they tried selling subs and content and now we are here. I've seen the population go from "this game is awesome" at launch to "**** this game I'm out" right before F2P. The game was on life support there for a bit, but we're still here. I still hate lockboxes...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
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First you do the work, then you get the money. That's how it works, not the other way around.
If I didn't know better, I would think you signed some sort of agreement to never play a game besides CO ever again. Lately it seems like you're trying really hard to find justifications for everything going on here... there's other games out there man, you should try playing some of them sometime to get some perspective on what's going on in this one.
You know you're a bit too attached when you're telling players that it's their fault, and they should have known they were going to get ripped off based on the title of the thing they were buying. So it said "prototype" in the name... that still doesn't justify it having less lasting value than a costume set.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
F2P MMO's operate under a different methodology, as you no doubt have observed. The attractor is that it's free, you can enjoy yourself without spending anything. Then, the enticements begin, or in some cases the outright you-need-this-to-succeed items that extract money from the (previously) unwilling who have become hooked. It's kind of like a store offering a free sample to get you to buy their candy/drink/whatever. Thing is, CO is fun when it's new. The customization and the combat are better than a lot of games. That may not be enough for long-termers, but for new folks, that is apparently enough to get them to stick around long to provide some revenue.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
For what its worth, final versions of a finished product are pretty commonly superior to the prototype, because part of the point of building a prototype is to find problems, bugs, etc that just don't get found until you have a full sized functional version of the item to play with. There was no reason to expect that the final product would be drastically inferior to the prototype.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
We're here now because there wasn't enough NEW things to do to keep players interested, and therefore subscribed, for very long. Even after removing the need for a subscription the game is still being faced with the same problem, the higher ups just choose to ignore it and focus on the churn factor.
Don't try to make it sound like this game had an abundance of content to do before and during the big decline into what it is now. It didn't, still doesn't and never will as long as the current business model stays in place.
There was also no reason to expect the already purchased/earned Hawkwings would be downgraded in the manner they were. I fully expected the new vehicles to outclass my Interceptor's specifications, what I didn't expect was that my jet's baseline performance would take a dive when compared to it's performance last week. That is NOT how prototypes work.
But for veteran players like me, the churn model means that heart, passion and vision have vanished from the development team and thus from the game.
At the moment, the game seems to have no vision for its future other than customer turnover and impulse purchases. Passion and enthusiasm may not always equal quality, but you can sense when those elements are missing and the focus is solely on making money. I am 100% in favor of CO making money and addressing the real and difficult demands of the market. That is just life. And I will support it, would continue to support it, if I sensed that CO also had something else in addition to that: a real vision for the game, a vision based on their own passion and enthusiasm for it, for the genre, the possibilities, and for a customer base that is as equally enthusiastic. The churn model is ok if it gives CO the resources to reinvest the churn into pursuing a vision, a vision for which they are burning bright.
Right now, I only see the churn.
The reason sub fee failed was that they dont have much actual content.
No they didnt try selling content, real content since they have barely added anything in 3 years!
1 zone soon after launch that was unready for lanunch, a few (very good i admit but very few) aps & comic series, and a cple special alerts (again very good but very few).
Most games launch with more content than this game has now after 3 years, and most add a lot each month.
Look at CoX the closest comparison - added refular new content in updates (whats it on now 24th update?) including some new zones. 2 full expansions that each added as much content as the original release.
And before someone says "yes and look how that went its shutting down" its not shutting down because it wasnt making money, it has always been and still is profitable.
I really do understand the concept... but think how much MORE money could be made if a larger portion of that transitory population decided that there was enough to do here to stick around a while longer. And I do understand that designing new zones and missions takes a sizable chunk of development time. This is one of the reasons players here have been begging for the Foundry to be implemented. Let us do some of that work for you.
The Forumite formerly known as Galeforce.
If you want my money, there is a fairly simple way to get it since I am fairly free with how I spend it. First, produce something I consider to be worth buying. Second, offer it up for sale. Don't lock it behind a gambling scam. If I want something, I am perfectly happy to pay for it. But I will not purchase a CHANCE to get it, When I pay money, I have a perfectly logical right to expect to get what I want.
Yeah, I'm noticing the same, he's pretty much going thread to thread chastising the greater player-base and 'their complaining ways'. It looks to me like a personal crusade to be contrary to standard player pessimism. Heaven forbid people dislike something and come on the forums about it. For one thing, most companies are going to prefer the venting channel here, indirectly. This is what all customers do, are expected to do, always do, and have every right to do.
Anyway...
Outputting some sort of serious content instead of money grab after money grab isn't going to suddenly ruin their business model. They need to take a break and pour into the core of the game in such a fashion to avoid the extremely damaging disinterest developing. Its one thing to be realistic in overall focus, another to just be in a phase where you squeeze the last juice out of the playerbase ignoring the meat of what they want, permanently.
I'm not entirely convinced yet they'll abandon all expansion and just do this sort of thing indefinitely, but I understand it might be the case. Those who'll hold out will slowly dwindle, or do other things while waiting and popping in occasionally until there is something interesting to do.
So yeah, maybe their business model says they'll just keep throwing the snack biscuits at us, but is it really true they can't season in content here and there to keep us 'fooled'? When those peeps get reeled back in, they'll bring their money and probably buy some extras while they're here. Don't see how it's wise to just write them off.
Personally, I have the patience to say 'we'll see' a while longer. If I did ever leave, I'd probably come back when they implemented The Foundry.
We tried that at City of Heroes. Revenues still went down. Its almost Sisyphean to pull in enough new players to replace the old players who just aren't spending anymore, not when there's eleventy billion other MMOs and new bright shiny ones continually popping up.
Yup, this is why I think the Foundry and Foundry-alikes are the future of MMOs. Its a lot easier to concentrate on the churn if your players are cranking out most of the content for you.
A week or so after that, I expect an explosion of good content.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Churn is an effective way to run a game as it is used by most game developers so it must have some financial reason behind it being effective.
It does not work when the profits are not to at least to some extent pushed back into the game.
We have lost devs and had no real replacements Tumorboy was moved but he was not replaced, Robobo was promoted and replaced by Brad who was head of the art department but who replaced him was never mentioned. I believe almost none of these devs have been replaced.
New things have to be implemented well and not just monetised to make the largest profit like holding back grav bikes to try and make players make two purchases.
I understand and would grudgingly support lock boxes etc if I could witness the money being used to make CO the leading game in the superhero niche market.
Instead I see money drifting to other products first it was STO now it's NWN and don't think we will get dev support once it is finished as they have another yet unnamed project after that.
Churn will also drop off as the few players like myself who praised this game become more disheartened and won't be giving positive reports but negative.
Cryptic has next to no advertising for it's products to increase churn and in a small niche of comic loving gamers churn is finite but if you get and support a loyal player base they will stay and spend money on a quality product. COH lasted a long time and its loyal player base still fought to keep it open. If you keep treating players the way you are Cryptic your games will always be short lived lasting only a few years.
Cryptic you may just write this game off and think players will move to your next game but if gamers want a lasting gaming experience they will soon realise your not the game designers that supply that and will go to others that do.
I personally I am not a WOW fan but they try and keep their long term players and encourage new players to replace the normal churn. Where Cryptic is so focused on the new player and to hell with the loyal players they have.
I love CO and it is the game I have played the longer than most other mmorpgs that last only a few weeks. I was one of Cryptics biggest fanboys until recent things have soured my mood.
[SIGPIC]http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd175/Fifer71/mandrakesigmark3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Churn management is effective... yes... but the game could benefit as well from retaining their costumers as well... growing its an effective strategy to generate revenue as well.
The main problem I see with CO is not the lack of content (GASP!) its just the lack of any real form of end game. There's no strong incentives for pvp, which would be considered a form of end game, there's no end game instances/raids, there's little to no progression once you hit lvl 40. That is a turn down for many... and likely thats why CO doesn't retain them.
Just compare this game to DCUO, where there's end game (a bit grindy, but hey! end game). Compare the amount of players playing the game (just go to any central hubs, or watch the chat) and you'll see a difference.
And the game HAS been reducing in size, I can tell that from my experience on Halloween 2011. In that event I remember MC having up to 16 instances, because I was hunting down Tako for aura and costume pieces... this year didn't even got close to it.
IMHO thats the whole prob with CO.
And this comes as well from a player who still is a fanboy of this game... a bit depressed one.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Click up there if you want to find more about the costumes behind my heroines.
Unfortunately, new content and even the Foundry require investment of resources. F2P games walk a fine line, trying to spend as little as possible on anything other than stuff that can be sold. Given how many expensive MMO's have had disappointing numbers, the business model is understandable. In the current climate, low overhead for maximum RoI > investment that might pay off in a big way.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The finished product I am referring to (my apologies for not being more clear here) is your prototype after the final fixes. When those final adjustments were made your prototype stopped being a prototype and became a finished product. For that finished product to be inferior to its state of performance during its existence as a prototype is counter to expected patterns.
The final product (the vehicle you bought or earned early) is inferior to when it was still a prototype.
My point was that there was no reason for you to think that your prototype would be downgraded at all. You had every reason to expect that it would be improved.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Perfect World.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
that said, current events make me keenly aware of pwi doing a small act of kindness relative to another eastern company that, while initially beneficial for another superhero game, just tossed them under the bus with no warning of weak earnings or bad financials, so i can appreciate that pwi is at least keeping the doors open, for now.
Now, their strategy with the lock-boxes is not something I like , but while content is coming slower than under atari, it was still pretty bad under atari. So yes, pw didnt help much, outside of not pulling an ncsoft on you, but co's neglect has been sadly long standing.
The timeline, for the record:
March 2010: Revelation, including Vibora Bay zone
June 2010: Serpent Lantern adventure pack
October 2010: Demonflame adventure pack
May 2011: Resistance adventure pack
May 2011: Perfect World buys Cryptic
June 2011: Comic Series #1: Aftershock
October 2011: PWE/Cryptic announces Neverwinter will be a F2P MMO
November 2011: Comic Series #2: Whiteout
March 2012: Alerts
November 2012: Vehicles
Whiteout was in development when Neverwinter became an MMO. Draw your own conclusions about the schedule after that.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
However, this does not mean that other models cannot be made to work. If old games can be allowed to grow, it can retain a huge player base and this in turn draw more players.
I actually proposed, along the line of the foundry, for players to submit 3D models, textures etc for greater diversity and customization based on template. The devs can then choose which to introduce to the community into the game. The person submitting can be then be rewarded with a small stipend of zen.
Each new piece of costume or what have you can be purchased and unlocked directly from tailor with a small sum of zen instead of purchasing a whole costume package for all players. This means the customization continues to grow without having to deploy resources while the money generated can then be used to focus on designing new content which is self-refreshing and new power sets.
If mission templates can be given, that will be even better. Players generated content which can be sold for low amount of zen. How about an open zone map which players can add new hexagonal pieces to build and expand? A pocket dimension which steals its parts from other dimensions. So you can have a city scape next to a dinosaur infested volcano, next to a jungle, next to outer space, next to the gutters of a 3rd world country, next to an alien planet etc. It will be a jumble mess which can be fun to play in. To add a new peice to the dimension, players can pay zen. Programming hell. However, smoochan is right on 1 thing. You work and then get paid.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/611721-regulation-may-alter-mmo-landscape-part-1
I do think the industry will eventually have to shift back to more traditional business models, at least in the U.S., but who knows how long that will take and whether or not CO will still be around.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
wow, so governments actually cracked down on companies for lockboxes, well, the article hinted at a "Domino" effect from japan, to Europe, maybe U.S. is next in line to banning lockboxes and chance boxes.That is,however, if PWE can adapt to that;as from what I have read, most of their income is from the lockboxes. On a side note, it also said that this was popular in eastern culture, but why would PWE put something that could be banned in western culture, IN a game that was made in the U.S.A., when most of us dislike gambling?
Consolidate currency!
Munitions additions
Petition to take in game report spam function out
Why not to do surveys and free offers
^^ Truer words have never been typed.
I know MOAR truer words.
They do a better job than Atari.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Good point!