There's one thing that's consistently amusing me in these discussions.
When the topic of what would one day become Alerts was first broached, there was much enthusiasm, amongst those who decry soloing and wanted to make any and all content force people to join groups. I, among others, inveighed against this, citing the unreliability of PUGs, but was shouted down by those who thought that forcing people to group up to do things was just the most wonderful thing to happen to MMOs since DARPANET went public.
Most of those people are now leaders in the complaints about lowbies in Alerts.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
There's one thing that's consistently amusing me in these discussions.
When the topic of what would one day become Alerts was first broached, there was much enthusiasm, amongst those who decry soloing and wanted to make any and all content force people to join groups. I, among others, inveighed against this, citing the unreliability of PUGs, but was shouted down by those who thought that forcing people to group up to do things was just the most wonderful thing to happen to MMOs since DARPANET went public.
Most of those people are now leaders in the complaints about lowbies in Alerts.
To be fair, group content, almost universally in the industry, means groups of characters of similar level.
Combine that with the pretty much universal, from my memory of past discussions on the subject, request for group content to be designed for meaningful teamwork, something that the alerts do not really provide, and you have the current situation.
Alerts provide little, if any at all, of what people desiring team play are looking for. They also provide little, if any at all, in the way of what a soloist looks for. Luckily they have what are probably the two most desired rewards in the game associated with them.
PUGGing is fine, expecting max level characters to chaperon or carry characters barely out of the tutorial is something else entirely.
To be fair, group content, almost universally in the industry, means groups of characters of similar level.
Combine that with the pretty much universal, from my memory of past discussions on the subject, request for group content to be designed for meaningful teamwork, something that the alerts do not really provide, and you have the current situation.
I can't say I really agree. The really glaring issue is that you can't faceroll alerts like you could GW2 events or CoX alignment/radio missions. Teamwork does play a huge role. The way I gauge how my current one is going to go is by noting the tank's behavior (if we have one) and the number of shiny gears above my teammates' heads. The more dedicated roles I see, the better I feel about how the mission is going to go.
What I think we're missing, and what goes in hand about what you mentioned about characters of similar level, is a dedicated newbie alert. Something 6 through 15s can blow through but hands out diminishing awards so that only the seriously dedicated will truck through that same alert to 40. A second dedicated one for 15 through 25 or so wouldn't be a bad idea either.
PUGGing is fine, expecting max level characters to chaperon or carry characters barely out of the tutorial is something else entirely.
Yes, the concept of a more powerful hero carrying a sidekicked less powerful hero is entirely unprecedented in this genre.
I swear, sometimes I think in the pursuit for "perfect game mechanic justice" we forgot that this is based on comic books. I'm trying to picture Super Man calling the justice league a bunch of noobs and refusing to help save the world that day until they find him a group his own level :biggrin:
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I can't say I really agree. The really glaring issue is that you can't faceroll alerts like you could GW2 events or CoX alignment/radio missions. Teamwork does play a huge role. The way I gauge how my current one is going to go is by noting the tank's behavior (if we have one) and the number of shiny gears above my teammates' heads. The more dedicated roles I see, the better I feel about how the mission is going to go.
What I think we're missing, and what goes in hand about what you mentioned about characters of similar level, is a dedicated newbie alert. Something 6 through 15s can blow through but hands out diminishing awards so that only the seriously dedicated will truck through that same alert to 40. A second dedicated one for 15 through 25 or so wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Weird, I have found the alerts to be extremely, "faceroll-able." Teamwork has not played a role at all (outside of something like Gravitar) over the course of the hundreds of alerts I've played.
To clarify, Ive only done alerts on non min/maxed concept characters and ATs.
Yes, the concept of a more powerful hero carrying a sidekicked less powerful hero is entirely unprecedented in this genre.
I swear, sometimes I think in the pursuit for "perfect game mechanic justice" we forgot that this is based on comic books. I'm trying to picture Super Man calling the justice league a bunch of noobs and refusing to help save the world that day until they find him a group his own level :biggrin:
Nice try. Genre is important, but game-play every bit as much so.
Currently CO insists that the fastest paranormal in the world is slower than a vehicle.
No paranormal in the world can shoot as far, or hit as many enemies, as a vehicle.
Superheroes are expected to chop people up with chainsaws, swords, axes, set them in fire, electrocute them, call in orbital strikes on them, etc...for loitering.
Superheroes are expected to loot the corpses of downed, murdered, etc loiterers and the like in order to increase their power.
Even comic books do not have the same villain escape prison hundreds of times per day.
And so on.
Genre apparently does not trump gameplay when translating to a game.
PS: Superman leaves the JL out of his endeavors pretty frequently.
I'm going to avoid commenting about whether or not a level 6 can output DPS on a signficant enough level for Smash Alerts. I myself don't have the numbers and for the benefit of the doubt it's highly possible that they indeed can, but has the issue of survivability of a level 6 fresh out of tutorial been addressed yet?
Since we're talking Smash Alerts, then we're refering to legendary bosses who are able to dish out a considerable amount of damage in a short period of time. Some bosses don't do it so well but there are those who do, and even those who don't can do things like holds which also can be dangerous.
Let's say that the level 6 AT isn't a Radiant or is a freeform who didn't take Rebuke, what sort of survival capabilities does the toon have? Without a defensive passive (if the freeform didn't get one, or the choice isn't given to the AT) or active defense, and the fact that the min level requirement of a basic stim/shield is 11 (let's also assume that the level 6 doesn't have specialty heals from events transfered from other toons or the Z-store), it looks like all that level 6 can depend on is the occasional armor or health drop from the boss, but those don't come instantly. If the boss happens to zone in on a level 6 and if someone in the team who is better equipped to draw and handle the aggro doesn't draw it, that level 6 is toast, unless he/she can run to a health drop in time which is purely hit-or-miss.
If the AT is a Radiant or has a tier 1 heal then maybe they could survive long enough in such a situation, but not every level 6 is built for heals from the start. EDIT: I forgot to mention that the alert team having a proficient healer can indeed save the level 6 from defeat in this instance, but that's also pretty situational.
Why this is such an issue in my view is because defeats have more of an impact in Smash than it does in the other alerts. I think those of us who have done at least a few Smash Alerts will know why without needing to explain.
I know the popular counter-argument is that higher-levelled players can be at fault for making poor decisions that lead to screw-ups in the alert, but personally I'd feel more comfortable having a higher-levelled team member who would most likely have self-heal capabilities and at least an active defense if they're not using a defensive passive, compared to a level 6 fresh out of tutorial with nothing but an energy builder and a tier 1 attack.
Personally these days I could care less about level 6's in Smash Alerts unless that level 6 just stands around doing zilch being an absolute leecher. If the Smash fails so be it, I just move on to another. I just made this post to point out that I see a credible reason why people can be against level 6's fresh out of tutorial diving straight into alerts.
Nice try. Genre is important, but game-play every bit as much so.
Currently CO insists that the fastest paranormal in the world is slower than a vehicle.
No paranormal in the world can shoot as far, or hit as many enemies, as a vehicle.
Superheroes are expected to chop people up with chainsaws, swords, axes, set them in fire, electrocute them, call in orbital strikes on them, etc...for loitering.
Superheroes are expected to loot the corpses of downed, murdered, etc loiterers and the like in order to increase their power.
Even comic books do not have the same villain escape prison hundreds of times per day.
And so on.
Genre apparently does not trump gameplay when translating to a game.
PS: Superman leaves the JL out of his endeavors pretty frequently.
You're really good at making this game sound terrible.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
You're really good at making this game sound terrible.
I don't think that was his intent.
EDIT: Also, while we're justifying certain mechanics of superhero-based game using comic books as parallels, not every superhero has a sidekick nor do they want to have a sidekick in the first place.
What irks me? Players who just can't be bothered to put in effort. Energy builder togglers. Those that stop attacking altogether and stand there calling whining when they see one single knock, a range start kiting, or a support not healing. Those that just wait while others do the work to see if the alert has any chance at all and then collect the reward. Those that exploit Alt+Tab (most frequent case) and makes others wait an extra minute and then load in near the end to collect reward, or in Warlord's case, load in, log off, and log back a few minutes later to fight warlord.
I think level 20 is the perfect level to start doing alerts "comfortably." And I personally think that they should lock the alerts until that level just like you have to wait until about lv35 to start doing Gravitar alerts.
I'm an alt-aholic so I've tested the whole "level 6's can get through alerts" thing and it is possible if you have a good team and(or) someone who can aggro well because if that boss targets you, regardless of if your level is bumped up to 30, you are going to die. I even tried at 8 with a passive and had a slightly better chance but still failed horribly. Either I'd get murdered after being targeted, ganged up on or just plain ran out of time because the damage output of my character just wasn't enough. And if you get a group that is majority low level, its a fail (on smash alerts at least that's how it goes.)
And even at lv20, same thing applies if you get a team that's majority low-leveled, sometimes you just don't do enough damage to get the job done. This is just what I've been noticing from my own adventures with ALERTS...and its quite frustrating sometimes.
I think level 20 is the perfect level to start doing alerts "comfortably." And I personally think that they should lock the alerts until that level just like you have to wait until about lv35 to start doing Gravitar alerts.
I'm an alt-aholic so I've tested the whole "level 6's can get through alerts" thing and it is possible if you have a good team and(or) someone who can aggro well because if that boss targets you, regardless of if your level is bumped up to 30, you are going to die. I even tried at 8 with a passive and had a slightly better chance but still failed horribly. Either I'd get murdered after being targeted, ganged up on or just plain ran out of time because the damage output of my character just wasn't enough. And if you get a group that is majority low level, its a fail (on smash alerts at least that's how it goes.)
And even at lv20, same thing applies if you get a team that's majority low-leveled, sometimes you just don't do enough damage to get the job done. This is just what I've been noticing from my own adventures with ALERTS...and its quite frustrating sometimes.
People that say the 20lvl should be the minimum for Alerts... YOU all just do quests till 20? I doubt. Or maybe you people aren't altaholics like myself. I want to level up fast so I can see if I want to continue with the character or not (I end up deleting characters before they reach lvl 20)
Also, as a freeformer, I can be lvl 8, have the pulse beam rifle, the Electric Passive and do more damage than most people at lvl 20.
People that say the 20lvl should be the minimum for Alerts... YOU all just do quests till 20? I doubt. Or maybe you people aren't altaholics like myself.
I do quests to level and am quite the altaholic. I'll join an alert roughly after lvl20, in hopes to get a costume drop, but will not collect the XP reward at the end. I'm gimping myself on experience yes, but when I can get a toon to 40 in under 5 days with just dedicated questing... Why bother?
People that say the 20lvl should be the minimum for Alerts... YOU all just do quests till 20? I doubt. Or maybe you people aren't altaholics like myself. I want to level up fast so I can see if I want to continue with the character or not (I end up deleting characters before they reach lvl 20)
Also, as a freeformer, I can be lvl 8, have the pulse beam rifle, the Electric Passive and do more damage than most people at lvl 20.
I ONLY freeform...And as I stated before, I am an alt-aholic. Which is why I skip what most people are saying about PBM. If I'm going to continue to make new characters with new powers, I don't want to keep choosing the same powers for the sake of just doing alerts. It takes away from the fun of the game. And yes, the lowest I've done alerts myself after my "testing" has been around lv17 because at that point, lack of open world missions are scarce and the grind to lv20 starts to kick in.
I do quests to level and am quite the altaholic. I'll join an alert roughly after lvl20, in hopes to get a costume drop, but will not collect the XP reward at the end. I'm gimping myself on experience yes, but when I can get a toon to 40 in under 5 days with just dedicated questing... Why bother?
Exactly, its not hard to level in CO compared to most games because of questing. And I'm into the lore/exploring aspect as well. I primarily only use the alerts for those times where leveling gets a bit slow while doing missions or if I'm at the point where I'm going to learn a new attack at the next level and I want to level up quick.
People that say the 20lvl should be the minimum for Alerts... YOU all just do quests till 20? I doubt. Or maybe you people aren't altaholics like myself. I want to level up fast so I can see if I want to continue with the character or not (I end up deleting characters before they reach lvl 20)
Also, as a freeformer, I can be lvl 8, have the pulse beam rifle, the Electric Passive and do more damage than most people at lvl 20.
I may be the exception rather than the rule, but the lowest level character I've taken into any Alert was level 21. I may also not be an altaholic, since I only have 12 characters in CO.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The only alerts that should bother a skilled 40 whos stuck with 6's when it comes to doing alerts is the timed ones with Nem or Draconis or ANY with the mighty Ao'Q.
Other than that suck it up people.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
People that say the 20lvl should be the minimum for Alerts... YOU all just do quests till 20? I doubt. Or maybe you people aren't altaholics like myself. I want to level up fast so I can see if I want to continue with the character or not (I end up deleting characters before they reach lvl 20)
Also, as a freeformer, I can be lvl 8, have the pulse beam rifle, the Electric Passive and do more damage than most people at lvl 20.
How freeform is it if you are choosing the same powers every time in order to be able to contribute ? Sounds like an AT if your power choice is restricted that heavily.
That said, I believe that tiering the alerts by level would be better than denying them to sub-40's. I'm not sure that CO has the population to support this though.
However, I do jump into Smash Alerts every so often, because that XP boost makes leveling through questing so much faster.
On the third hand, I've gone into Alerts with Skyfire, who's 37 now, and feel horribly gimped because he gets sidekicked down to 30. That means that if the Alerts were gated to 20, I'd have a whole ten levels during which the Alerts would be more fun than chore. Dunno - doesn't really sound like my cuppa...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
How freeform is it if you are choosing the same powers every time in order to be able to contribute ? Sounds like an AT if your power choice is restricted that heavily.
That said, I believe that tiering the alerts by level would be better than denying them to sub-40's. I'm not sure that CO has the population to support this though.
I don't see anything wrong with tiering the alerts but, I find it interesting the direction this thread is taking. There are a lot of people saying that characters should be locked out of alerts until level 20.
A couple people in this thread claim that they're able to contribute just as much, if not more, on low level toons if they build in a specific way.
Now people are saying that they don't want to do that on their freeform characters and would rather do missions until they're in their 20s. Apparently they think that this means other people should do the same and it's no longer about whether or not a low level toon can contribute to the team. Some of you are, in essence, trying to dictate how others should play this game.
Guess what? You don't really get to have a say in that. Not unless you want others telling you how to play as well and I somehow doubt you do.
I'd have to agree with what Nepht said. The only time it should be an issue is if you're on a timed alert with the entire rest of the team consisting of very low level toons. If you leave any other alerts that aren't bugged because the majority of your team consists of lowbies that's your issue. Not the game's or that of other players.
I don't see anything wrong with tiering the alerts but, I find it interesting the direction this thread is taking. There are a lot of people saying that characters should be locked out of alerts until level 20.
A couple people in this thread claim that they're able to contribute just as much, if not more, on low level toons if they build in a specific way.
Now people are saying that they don't want to do that on their freeform characters and would rather do missions until they're in their 20s. Apparently they think that this means other people should do the same and it's no longer about whether or not a low level toon can contribute to the team. Some of you are, in essence, trying to dictate how others should play this game.
Guess what? You don't really get to have a say in that. Not unless you want others telling you how to play as well and I somehow doubt you do.
I'd have to agree with what Nepht said. The only time it should be an issue is if you're on a timed alert with the entire rest of the team consisting of very low level toons. If you leave any other alerts that aren't bugged because the majority of your team consists of lowbies that's your issue. Not the game's or that of other players.
LOL QFT.
Look we've been asking for gated alerts and/or level restrictions for *checks the calendar* 7 months now. Cryptic has shown no inclination or even the slightest hints of changing the current system so really all of this is just pissing into the wind. :eek:
The solution is simple and obvious. If you don't like the hand the queue has dealt you, leave and requeue.
I've notice that my munition freeform grabs a lot of aggro all the time. I've had a villain stay aggro to me even when I was barely in sniper range (which means they were just standing there for a long time doing nothing). Heck, they stayed aggro to me even out of sniper range. Once they finally aggro to some one else, I hover back down, shoot them with one power, and BAM, aggro. Sometimes I spend most of the alert way in the sky because of this.
This is why i have flight on most of my ranged characters. i often have the aggro, so i'll hover just out of range when i'm being targeted, then drop back down and toss my DoT attacks, then hover out of range again. Of course, this means i'm doing only a fraction of my DPS, but my job isn't to tank. If i'm in the tank position because of my DPS, then i'm going to do my best not to die while doing it.
On the third hand, I've gone into Alerts with Skyfire, who's 37 now, and feel horribly gimped because he gets sidekicked down to 30. That means that if the Alerts were gated to 20, I'd have a whole ten levels during which the Alerts would be more fun than chore. Dunno - doesn't really sound like my cuppa...
The level scaling was yet another questionable decision by Cryptic. Why were Alerts not level 40, with 40's keeping their damage "as is" and lowers scaled up? When I was still doing Alerts, my Muni character at level 31, scaled to 30, was doing less damage than when scaled to 30 from 22-29. Silly.
Back on topic. It's easy to cop aggro in Alerts. All you need to do is spec for crits. That Muni character holds aggro in 90% of the Alerts she's been in. That's with R2 Quarry, using Two-Gun Mojo and Breakaway Shot exclusively. Maybe lots of players didn't get the memo about CO being so crit-centric?
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Back on topic. It's easy to cop aggro in Alerts. All you need to do is spec for crits. That Muni character holds aggro in 90% of the Alerts she's been in. That's with R2 Quarry, using Two-Gun Mojo and Breakaway Shot exclusively. Maybe lots of players didn't get the memo about CO being so crit-centric?
Say what? I have two tanks that I'm sure can pull the agro better than you can. They're setup for it. And this is without even the much-needed suggestion to improve tanking (see my signature's links)
If you don't believe me I say you find me and we'll test it. You will need a LOT of DPS to out agro these two with their tap-spam.
Okay, if there's one way to help have some closure to arguments regarding:
Should Level 6's be allowed in Smash Alerts?
Must level 6's be carried by higher-levelled players to win the Smash?
It's to test things out practically.
Have a team solely made up of level 6's queue up for Smash upon leaving tutorial (or bypassing it straight into MC if it's been done before). To keep things fair with accordance to the Alerts' random matchmaking mechanic, all 5 level 6's will have to be either different AT's from each other, or freeforms that have different Tier 1 powers from each other.
Also to keep things interesting, Heroic Resonance and Z-store / Event-based reward heals should be prevented from using. If possible, a seperate test can be done with the usage of heal devices for the sake of performance comparison.
If I have time over the weekend I'll try to get a group to do these tests. I'm actually interested to see how the results would turn out.
Okay, if there's one way to help have some closure to arguments regarding:
Should Level 6's be allowed in Smash Alerts?
Must level 6's be carried by higher-levelled players to win the Smash?
It's to test things out practically.
Have a team solely made up of level 6's queue up for Smash upon leaving tutorial (or bypassing it straight into MC if it's been done before). To keep things fair with accordance to the Alerts' random matchmaking mechanic, all 5 level 6's will have to be either different AT's from each other, or freeforms that have different Tier 1 powers from each other.
Also to keep things interesting, Heroic Resonance and Z-store / Event-based reward heals should be prevented from using. If possible, a seperate test can be done with the usage of heal devices for the sake of performance comparison.
If I have time over the weekend I'll try to get a group to do these tests. I'm actually interested to see how the results would turn out.
There already has been closure on this. The devs aren't going to do it, all the discussions and testing that players are engaging in is the same as monkeys chittering at each other to escape from the zoo. You really think the devs are looking at these conversations, waiting for that one really good post that gets them to make their mind up one way or the other?
Let's all have a holy war that god doesn't even know about.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
There already has been closure on this. The devs aren't going to do it, all the discussions and testing that players are engaging in is the same as monkeys chittering at each other to escape from the zoo. You really think the devs are looking at these conversations, waiting for that one really good post that gets them to make their mind up one way or the other?
Let's all have a holy war that god doesn't even know about.
I'm interested to find out whether level 6's need to be carried by higher levels to win a Smash or if they can really hold on their own, and if higher-levelled players who are against carrying them are justified in doing so when they being shot down for being discriminatory and unfair. That's the kind of closure I'm looking for. Whether or not the devs are going to do something about it is only an after-thought.
Easy take one level six with default gear into the alert, set your combat chat to only 'combat self'.
Take a sampling of the damage you do and find the average you do per minute.
Multiply this by 10 (5 level sixes times two minutes).
Is this value greater than the health of the boss and any mobs in the way of the boss?
Easy take one level six with default gear into the alert, set your combat chat to only 'combat self'.
Take a sampling of the damage you do and find the average you do per minute.
Multiply this by 10 (5 level sixes times two minutes).
Is this value greater than the health of the boss and any mobs in the way of the boss?
Although the results of your suggested test would be interesting to see, I do wonder if the lack of effective defenses, and perhaps energy management, would color an actual alert run.
Although the results of your suggested test would be interesting to see, I do wonder if the lack of effective defenses, and perhaps energy management, would color an actual alert run.
This is pretty much why I addressed survival being as important as DPS, since survival is pretty much crucial for Smash as there are penalties for defeats, be it a faster soul/recruit gain rate or simply inactivity time vs the time limit.
We've already ran this test months ago. Won't go searching now (I don't really have the time to, cause I am almost sure it was before the forum purge) but we tested over and over that a team of random lvl 6s alone could not beat an alert. The addition of one 40 was enough to beat the alert.
I don't see anything wrong with tiering the alerts but, I find it interesting the direction this thread is taking. There are a lot of people saying that characters should be locked out of alerts until level 20.
A couple people in this thread claim that they're able to contribute just as much, if not more, on low level toons if they build in a specific way.
Now people are saying that they don't want to do that on their freeform characters and would rather do missions until they're in their 20s. Apparently they think that this means other people should do the same and it's no longer about whether or not a low level toon can contribute to the team. Some of you are, in essence, trying to dictate how others should play this game.
Guess what? You don't really get to have a say in that. Not unless you want others telling you how to play as well and I somehow doubt you do.
I'd have to agree with what Nepht said. The only time it should be an issue is if you're on a timed alert with the entire rest of the team consisting of very low level toons. If you leave any other alerts that aren't bugged because the majority of your team consists of lowbies that's your issue. Not the game's or that of other players.
Uh huh imagine if PvP zones were not tiered. You get stuck constantly with the level 6 only team vs. a bunch of level 40s. Yeah I don't see you having a fun time with that.
The thing is the system is broken and it needs fixing. If lowbies are taking advantage of being carried without contributing a thing that's an exploitation not a playstyle.
Uh huh imagine if PvP zones were not tiered. You get stuck constantly with the level 6 only team vs. a bunch of level 40s. Yeah I don't see you having a fun time with that.
The thing is the system is broken and it needs fixing. If lowbies are taking advantage of being carried without contributing a thing that's an exploitation not a playstyle.
Are you aware that even though you quoted my entire post, you completely ignored the beginning of it to try and rationalize a move I said right at the beginning that I'm not against?
Edit: Also, they do scale up to level 30 and very rarely does a team consist of nothing but level 6s so... not really a fair comparison.
We've already ran this test months ago. Won't go searching now (I don't really have the time to, cause I am almost sure it was before the forum purge) but we tested over and over that a team of random lvl 6s alone could not beat an alert. The addition of one 40 was enough to beat the alert.
The converse of this, of course, is that so long as there is at least one character of level 30+, it should be possible to win the alert. The mere presence of one or more level 6s should not be enough, in and of itself, to make the team lose.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
We've already ran this test months ago. Won't go searching now (I don't really have the time to, cause I am almost sure it was before the forum purge) but we tested over and over that a team of random lvl 6s alone could not beat an alert. The addition of one 40 was enough to beat the alert.
Did the testing over and over again includes different types of level 40 toons? I am sure my regular L40 tank cannot carry 4 L6 through but my dps toon may have a chance. I wonder if healers and support can do the same.
SOME level 40s may be able to carry a team of all 6s, but most cant.
My main is a strong dps (not uber but strong) i was consistantly getting in top 10 on tako for instance, but if im on a team of the exploting 6-9s (those who keep deleting and rerolling to exploit the questionite gains) I cant carry them to a win on a timed smash.
This is pretty much why I addressed survival being as important as DPS, since survival is pretty much crucial for Smash as there are penalties for defeats, be it a faster soul/recruit gain rate or simply inactivity time vs the time limit.
Actually Soul Siphon doesn't siphon faster on hero death. Coupled with the general tendency for bosses to run up and down the stairs as they eat ranged attacks, Soul Siphon is probably -the- most unfailable Smash type. I bet a full team of lv6 Soldier ATs with Flight could clear that easy.
Are you aware that even though you quoted my entire post, you completely ignored the beginning of it to try and rationalize a move I said right at the beginning that I'm not against?
Edit: Also, they do scale up to level 30 and very rarely does a team consist of nothing but level 6s so... not really a fair comparison.
Yeah I'm talking about a PvP zone where everyone is scaled to level 30s... but it's all the same anyone that is level 6 out of it won't have the powers, specializations, gear to match up against level 40s.
Yeah I'm talking about a PvP zone where everyone is scaled to level 30s... but it's all the same anyone that is level 6 out of it won't have the powers, specializations, gear to match up against level 40s.
And how often do you come across a team of nothing but minimum level characters? If you wanna disagree then fine but, at least don't cherry pick.
Actually Soul Siphon doesn't siphon faster on hero death. Coupled with the general tendency for bosses to run up and down the stairs as they eat ranged attacks, Soul Siphon is probably -the- most unfailable Smash type. I bet a full team of lv6 Soldier ATs with Flight could clear that easy.
That general tendency is what ranged players like to do to be able to tank the boss. And it's not just the stairs. Pull the boss far enough anywhere and he'll do that. And it's not just soul siphon, it's any boss in that map.
That general tendency is what ranged players like to do to be able to tank the boss. And it's not just the stairs. Pull the boss far enough anywhere and he'll do that. And it's not just soul siphon, it's any boss in that map.
Soul siphon has the ai scripted to stick to the worm area - I've seen a boss on that map in a two minute drill follow me to the edge without once making a beeline for the stairs.
And how often do you come across a team of nothing but minimum level characters? If you wanna disagree then fine but, at least don't cherry pick.
Actually it's fairly common, especially during events like Double XP Weekends, because everyone is making new characters. But rather than play the game, they just bum rush the alerts to quick level.
And that's really the biggest thing that pisses me off in the smash alerts: Level 6 characters.
At that point, you're not even pretending. You're literally just skipping the game to grind alerts. This is why I'd like to see some kind of level restriction on the alerts. They have them for Gravitar, why not the rest. As it stands, why is there anything outside of the Ren Center when so many people are NOT playing the game? It's a little frightening that when I started playing, I could pick up a team while traveling through the Westside doing missions. You started out alone, and by the time you got to Foxbat you had a full team. Now the streets of Westside are pretty well devoid of anyone. I've run through the entire Westside arc and never seen another player. Better than half of them just grind alerts until they hit 25, 35, or 40.
i Have A Force Toon. Literally Every Offensive Power She Has Is A Knock. I Dont Need To Be Yelled At By Some Jerk In A Nemesis Alert! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Stop Necroing Threads With Kb You Kb Noob!
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I agree with a minimum level of 20 required, it doesnt take that long to get to level 20, and entering just to find YOU have to do all the work, whilst people do nothing but use Powerbuilder and a T1 Blast occassionally, is a very painful experience, and worsens my mental state.
Or i could do an impression of how people like to behave in topics featuring my opinions and say: "You are the only one having a problem you idiot!"
But that whole 'form a gang to grief someone' thing just aint my style.
Comments
So then what's the problem? You want perfect, then you're in the wrong mmo. ( I'm sure there's a joke about Perfect World to be made here. )
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
When the topic of what would one day become Alerts was first broached, there was much enthusiasm, amongst those who decry soloing and wanted to make any and all content force people to join groups. I, among others, inveighed against this, citing the unreliability of PUGs, but was shouted down by those who thought that forcing people to group up to do things was just the most wonderful thing to happen to MMOs since DARPANET went public.
Most of those people are now leaders in the complaints about lowbies in Alerts.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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To be fair, group content, almost universally in the industry, means groups of characters of similar level.
Combine that with the pretty much universal, from my memory of past discussions on the subject, request for group content to be designed for meaningful teamwork, something that the alerts do not really provide, and you have the current situation.
Alerts provide little, if any at all, of what people desiring team play are looking for. They also provide little, if any at all, in the way of what a soloist looks for. Luckily they have what are probably the two most desired rewards in the game associated with them.
PUGGing is fine, expecting max level characters to chaperon or carry characters barely out of the tutorial is something else entirely.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I can't say I really agree. The really glaring issue is that you can't faceroll alerts like you could GW2 events or CoX alignment/radio missions. Teamwork does play a huge role. The way I gauge how my current one is going to go is by noting the tank's behavior (if we have one) and the number of shiny gears above my teammates' heads. The more dedicated roles I see, the better I feel about how the mission is going to go.
What I think we're missing, and what goes in hand about what you mentioned about characters of similar level, is a dedicated newbie alert. Something 6 through 15s can blow through but hands out diminishing awards so that only the seriously dedicated will truck through that same alert to 40. A second dedicated one for 15 through 25 or so wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Yes, the concept of a more powerful hero carrying a sidekicked less powerful hero is entirely unprecedented in this genre.
I swear, sometimes I think in the pursuit for "perfect game mechanic justice" we forgot that this is based on comic books. I'm trying to picture Super Man calling the justice league a bunch of noobs and refusing to help save the world that day until they find him a group his own level :biggrin:
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Weird, I have found the alerts to be extremely, "faceroll-able." Teamwork has not played a role at all (outside of something like Gravitar) over the course of the hundreds of alerts I've played.
To clarify, Ive only done alerts on non min/maxed concept characters and ATs.
Nice try. Genre is important, but game-play every bit as much so.
Currently CO insists that the fastest paranormal in the world is slower than a vehicle.
No paranormal in the world can shoot as far, or hit as many enemies, as a vehicle.
Superheroes are expected to chop people up with chainsaws, swords, axes, set them in fire, electrocute them, call in orbital strikes on them, etc...for loitering.
Superheroes are expected to loot the corpses of downed, murdered, etc loiterers and the like in order to increase their power.
Even comic books do not have the same villain escape prison hundreds of times per day.
And so on.
Genre apparently does not trump gameplay when translating to a game.
PS: Superman leaves the JL out of his endeavors pretty frequently.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Since we're talking Smash Alerts, then we're refering to legendary bosses who are able to dish out a considerable amount of damage in a short period of time. Some bosses don't do it so well but there are those who do, and even those who don't can do things like holds which also can be dangerous.
Let's say that the level 6 AT isn't a Radiant or is a freeform who didn't take Rebuke, what sort of survival capabilities does the toon have? Without a defensive passive (if the freeform didn't get one, or the choice isn't given to the AT) or active defense, and the fact that the min level requirement of a basic stim/shield is 11 (let's also assume that the level 6 doesn't have specialty heals from events transfered from other toons or the Z-store), it looks like all that level 6 can depend on is the occasional armor or health drop from the boss, but those don't come instantly. If the boss happens to zone in on a level 6 and if someone in the team who is better equipped to draw and handle the aggro doesn't draw it, that level 6 is toast, unless he/she can run to a health drop in time which is purely hit-or-miss.
If the AT is a Radiant or has a tier 1 heal then maybe they could survive long enough in such a situation, but not every level 6 is built for heals from the start. EDIT: I forgot to mention that the alert team having a proficient healer can indeed save the level 6 from defeat in this instance, but that's also pretty situational.
Why this is such an issue in my view is because defeats have more of an impact in Smash than it does in the other alerts. I think those of us who have done at least a few Smash Alerts will know why without needing to explain.
I know the popular counter-argument is that higher-levelled players can be at fault for making poor decisions that lead to screw-ups in the alert, but personally I'd feel more comfortable having a higher-levelled team member who would most likely have self-heal capabilities and at least an active defense if they're not using a defensive passive, compared to a level 6 fresh out of tutorial with nothing but an energy builder and a tier 1 attack.
Personally these days I could care less about level 6's in Smash Alerts unless that level 6 just stands around doing zilch being an absolute leecher. If the Smash fails so be it, I just move on to another. I just made this post to point out that I see a credible reason why people can be against level 6's fresh out of tutorial diving straight into alerts.
You're really good at making this game sound terrible.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I don't think that was his intent.
EDIT: Also, while we're justifying certain mechanics of superhero-based game using comic books as parallels, not every superhero has a sidekick nor do they want to have a sidekick in the first place.
I'm an alt-aholic so I've tested the whole "level 6's can get through alerts" thing and it is possible if you have a good team and(or) someone who can aggro well because if that boss targets you, regardless of if your level is bumped up to 30, you are going to die. I even tried at 8 with a passive and had a slightly better chance but still failed horribly. Either I'd get murdered after being targeted, ganged up on or just plain ran out of time because the damage output of my character just wasn't enough. And if you get a group that is majority low level, its a fail (on smash alerts at least that's how it goes.)
And even at lv20, same thing applies if you get a team that's majority low-leveled, sometimes you just don't do enough damage to get the job done. This is just what I've been noticing from my own adventures with ALERTS...and its quite frustrating sometimes.
I agree with you.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
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Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Also, as a freeformer, I can be lvl 8, have the pulse beam rifle, the Electric Passive and do more damage than most people at lvl 20.
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@Pallih in game
I do quests to level and am quite the altaholic. I'll join an alert roughly after lvl20, in hopes to get a costume drop, but will not collect the XP reward at the end. I'm gimping myself on experience yes, but when I can get a toon to 40 in under 5 days with just dedicated questing... Why bother?
Exactly, its not hard to level in CO compared to most games because of questing. And I'm into the lore/exploring aspect as well. I primarily only use the alerts for those times where leveling gets a bit slow while doing missions or if I'm at the point where I'm going to learn a new attack at the next level and I want to level up quick.
I may be the exception rather than the rule, but the lowest level character I've taken into any Alert was level 21. I may also not be an altaholic, since I only have 12 characters in CO.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Other than that suck it up people.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
How freeform is it if you are choosing the same powers every time in order to be able to contribute ? Sounds like an AT if your power choice is restricted that heavily.
That said, I believe that tiering the alerts by level would be better than denying them to sub-40's. I'm not sure that CO has the population to support this though.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
However, I do jump into Smash Alerts every so often, because that XP boost makes leveling through questing so much faster.
On the third hand, I've gone into Alerts with Skyfire, who's 37 now, and feel horribly gimped because he gets sidekicked down to 30. That means that if the Alerts were gated to 20, I'd have a whole ten levels during which the Alerts would be more fun than chore. Dunno - doesn't really sound like my cuppa...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I don't see anything wrong with tiering the alerts but, I find it interesting the direction this thread is taking. There are a lot of people saying that characters should be locked out of alerts until level 20.
A couple people in this thread claim that they're able to contribute just as much, if not more, on low level toons if they build in a specific way.
Now people are saying that they don't want to do that on their freeform characters and would rather do missions until they're in their 20s. Apparently they think that this means other people should do the same and it's no longer about whether or not a low level toon can contribute to the team. Some of you are, in essence, trying to dictate how others should play this game.
Guess what? You don't really get to have a say in that. Not unless you want others telling you how to play as well and I somehow doubt you do.
I'd have to agree with what Nepht said. The only time it should be an issue is if you're on a timed alert with the entire rest of the team consisting of very low level toons. If you leave any other alerts that aren't bugged because the majority of your team consists of lowbies that's your issue. Not the game's or that of other players.
LOL QFT.
Look we've been asking for gated alerts and/or level restrictions for *checks the calendar* 7 months now. Cryptic has shown no inclination or even the slightest hints of changing the current system so really all of this is just pissing into the wind. :eek:
The solution is simple and obvious. If you don't like the hand the queue has dealt you, leave and requeue.
Next problem please.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
This is why i have flight on most of my ranged characters. i often have the aggro, so i'll hover just out of range when i'm being targeted, then drop back down and toss my DoT attacks, then hover out of range again. Of course, this means i'm doing only a fraction of my DPS, but my job isn't to tank. If i'm in the tank position because of my DPS, then i'm going to do my best not to die while doing it.
@lady_phoenix
The level scaling was yet another questionable decision by Cryptic. Why were Alerts not level 40, with 40's keeping their damage "as is" and lowers scaled up? When I was still doing Alerts, my Muni character at level 31, scaled to 30, was doing less damage than when scaled to 30 from 22-29. Silly.
Back on topic. It's easy to cop aggro in Alerts. All you need to do is spec for crits. That Muni character holds aggro in 90% of the Alerts she's been in. That's with R2 Quarry, using Two-Gun Mojo and Breakaway Shot exclusively. Maybe lots of players didn't get the memo about CO being so crit-centric?
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Say what? I have two tanks that I'm sure can pull the agro better than you can. They're setup for it. And this is without even the much-needed suggestion to improve tanking (see my signature's links)
If you don't believe me I say you find me and we'll test it. You will need a LOT of DPS to out agro these two with their tap-spam.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Should Level 6's be allowed in Smash Alerts?
Must level 6's be carried by higher-levelled players to win the Smash?
It's to test things out practically.
Have a team solely made up of level 6's queue up for Smash upon leaving tutorial (or bypassing it straight into MC if it's been done before). To keep things fair with accordance to the Alerts' random matchmaking mechanic, all 5 level 6's will have to be either different AT's from each other, or freeforms that have different Tier 1 powers from each other.
Also to keep things interesting, Heroic Resonance and Z-store / Event-based reward heals should be prevented from using. If possible, a seperate test can be done with the usage of heal devices for the sake of performance comparison.
If I have time over the weekend I'll try to get a group to do these tests. I'm actually interested to see how the results would turn out.
There already has been closure on this. The devs aren't going to do it, all the discussions and testing that players are engaging in is the same as monkeys chittering at each other to escape from the zoo. You really think the devs are looking at these conversations, waiting for that one really good post that gets them to make their mind up one way or the other?
Let's all have a holy war that god doesn't even know about.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I'm interested to find out whether level 6's need to be carried by higher levels to win a Smash or if they can really hold on their own, and if higher-levelled players who are against carrying them are justified in doing so when they being shot down for being discriminatory and unfair. That's the kind of closure I'm looking for. Whether or not the devs are going to do something about it is only an after-thought.
Take a sampling of the damage you do and find the average you do per minute.
Multiply this by 10 (5 level sixes times two minutes).
Is this value greater than the health of the boss and any mobs in the way of the boss?
Although the results of your suggested test would be interesting to see, I do wonder if the lack of effective defenses, and perhaps energy management, would color an actual alert run.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
This is pretty much why I addressed survival being as important as DPS, since survival is pretty much crucial for Smash as there are penalties for defeats, be it a faster soul/recruit gain rate or simply inactivity time vs the time limit.
@Quincy-St-Moth's PRIMUS page
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Uh huh imagine if PvP zones were not tiered. You get stuck constantly with the level 6 only team vs. a bunch of level 40s. Yeah I don't see you having a fun time with that.
The thing is the system is broken and it needs fixing. If lowbies are taking advantage of being carried without contributing a thing that's an exploitation not a playstyle.
Are you aware that even though you quoted my entire post, you completely ignored the beginning of it to try and rationalize a move I said right at the beginning that I'm not against?
Edit: Also, they do scale up to level 30 and very rarely does a team consist of nothing but level 6s so... not really a fair comparison.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Did the testing over and over again includes different types of level 40 toons? I am sure my regular L40 tank cannot carry 4 L6 through but my dps toon may have a chance. I wonder if healers and support can do the same.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My main is a strong dps (not uber but strong) i was consistantly getting in top 10 on tako for instance, but if im on a team of the exploting 6-9s (those who keep deleting and rerolling to exploit the questionite gains) I cant carry them to a win on a timed smash.
Actually Soul Siphon doesn't siphon faster on hero death. Coupled with the general tendency for bosses to run up and down the stairs as they eat ranged attacks, Soul Siphon is probably -the- most unfailable Smash type. I bet a full team of lv6 Soldier ATs with Flight could clear that easy.
Yeah I'm talking about a PvP zone where everyone is scaled to level 30s... but it's all the same anyone that is level 6 out of it won't have the powers, specializations, gear to match up against level 40s.
And how often do you come across a team of nothing but minimum level characters? If you wanna disagree then fine but, at least don't cherry pick.
That general tendency is what ranged players like to do to be able to tank the boss. And it's not just the stairs. Pull the boss far enough anywhere and he'll do that. And it's not just soul siphon, it's any boss in that map.
Soul siphon has the ai scripted to stick to the worm area - I've seen a boss on that map in a two minute drill follow me to the edge without once making a beeline for the stairs.
Actually it's fairly common, especially during events like Double XP Weekends, because everyone is making new characters. But rather than play the game, they just bum rush the alerts to quick level.
And that's really the biggest thing that pisses me off in the smash alerts: Level 6 characters.
At that point, you're not even pretending. You're literally just skipping the game to grind alerts. This is why I'd like to see some kind of level restriction on the alerts. They have them for Gravitar, why not the rest. As it stands, why is there anything outside of the Ren Center when so many people are NOT playing the game? It's a little frightening that when I started playing, I could pick up a team while traveling through the Westside doing missions. You started out alone, and by the time you got to Foxbat you had a full team. Now the streets of Westside are pretty well devoid of anyone. I've run through the entire Westside arc and never seen another player. Better than half of them just grind alerts until they hit 25, 35, or 40.
Stop Necroing Threads With Kb You Kb Noob!
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Or i could do an impression of how people like to behave in topics featuring my opinions and say: "You are the only one having a problem you idiot!"
But that whole 'form a gang to grief someone' thing just aint my style.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.