Not against that .. but .. if we don't want again force PVEers to PvP that must work so that
only one choice is available, not that you can get 4000 as PvP player if you also do the Alerts
but only can get 2000 if you don't PvP.
So maybe the daylies should look like :
Do 3 Burst Alerts OR 3 ZA. A mix should also work, like doing 2 ZA and 1 Burst.
It doesn't force anyone - I can hit 8k without ever touching an alert or even hassling with a nemcon. I choose not to
Have to agree with this I PvP now and then not as much as Xeno or Mal but have played quite a few PvP matches never once seen Beldin. To be honest I have to be the worst gold PvPer ( with the exception of Shev ) out there but I still get what the OP was meaning.
It doesn't force anyone - I can hit 8k without ever touching an alert or even hassling with a nemcon. I choose not to
Beldin makes a good point though. Making them mutually exclusive would resolve the issue of feeling like I have to PVP to keep up with the Jones'. Mainly because the PVP daily would have to be based on wins, otherwise you'd have pikers just along for the ride trying to cause a loss as quickly as possible to 'hurry up' and finish the daily.
The two main things that are really needed is simply this..
The hero vendors need an equivalent version of silver champion gear. Equal in terms of stats, cost, and rate of earning with acclaim.
PVP needs its own Questionite daily mission. Similar to the alerts daily that pays out 2000 a day per character. They could even use the rotating system, so day one might require 3 ZA, day 2 three BASH, ect.
This is the most valuable post in this whole thread.
The concept that having the option to do something is forcing someone to do it is absurd.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Beldin makes a good point though. Making them mutually exclusive would resolve the issue of feeling like I have to PVP to keep up with the Jones'. Mainly because the PVP daily would have to be based on wins, otherwise you'd have pikers just along for the ride trying to cause a loss as quickly as possible to 'hurry up' and finish the daily.
But you never even have to touch a daily to hit 8k. That was my point. You don't need to do dailys at all to earn questionite. You don't have to wait for certain bosses to spawn, any of that mess - there are actual options in pursuing questionite. My most efficient manner doesn't involve a team or a daily at all.
I wouldn't be too worried about people suiciding or feeding to get through a pvp daily quickly - most players have an aversion to seeing their character die, which is why a number of people avoid pvp altogether.
But you never even have to touch a daily to hit 8k. That was my point. You don't need to do dailys at all to earn questionite. You don't have to wait for certain bosses to spawn, any of that mess - there are actual options in pursuing questionite. My most efficient manner doesn't involve a team or a daily at all.
True but it doesn't take a rocket silentest to figure that out.
There will always be people who feel like threatened by any viable option outside their preference. These kinds of arguments are driven by emotion and ego and not logic. Because of that, no amount of rationality will convince some one who argues from the position stated above.
Didn't we have a similar issue with people claiming that the addition of vehicle missions with rewards would force them to do said missions?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Umm, it was the same person. Seeing a pattern emerge?
I didn't know that. hmm...
"This is why we cant have nice things."
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Going to pop in and say I agree with Beldin. If there are rewards for PvP, they need to be MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE to the PvE ones. Otherwise don't even bother.
This is not a PvP game, and no matter how much griping and delusion there is from that crowd, it never will be one. PvP in this game is less balanced than the old MVC games, and always will be, because the system isn't in any way cohesive to a PvP environment. It will always be a select few players abusing the hell out of frankenbuilds and very few people want to be a part of that. Anyone trying to ignore this or act like it's not the case needs their head checked.
Also, I'm pretty sure what secksegai is referring to is an exploit that will eventually be fixed. Unless he cares to clarify and explain what his "method" is? Because if it's what I think it is, it's better it not be mentioned. Discounting that, Nemcon and Alerts ARE the only real way to get a large sum of Q.
As with Gravitar and Smoke Nades, trying to make an argument based on things that are likely to be viewed as exploits is retarded.
But you never even have to touch a daily to hit 8k. That was my point. You don't need to do dailys at all to earn questionite. You don't have to wait for certain bosses to spawn, any of that mess - there are actual options in pursuing questionite. My most efficient manner doesn't involve a team or a daily at all.
I wouldn't be too worried about people suiciding or feeding to get through a pvp daily quickly - most players have an aversion to seeing their character die, which is why a number of people avoid pvp altogether.
I totally agree, I use my stipend for the questionite to spend on secondaries. I don't farm much of anything but XP anymore lol. Coupled with what I find each month just leveling it is plenty to afford them.
Worried isn't the term I'd use for it, trying to avoid the 'WHAAAAAAA' from the PVP crowd because they keep getting teamed with 'unenthused' participants.
Xao, we have crossed paths several times recently and i have witnessed your "wrath" and am not interested in invoking it. So please don't interpret what im about to say as a personal attack.
The overarching point here is the people who keep saying **** in this thread to defend the butchering of imbue either don't know what they're talking about,
As seen above, you often lead off an argument with something to the effect that "whoever disagrees with me doesn't know what they are talking about" or "need to have they're head checked" ect. I think its fair to say many of your post are "passionate" and i find it disappointing that you have such a passionate dislike for a part of the game that i love (pvp).
Passionate as your arguments may be, I hope you can see why I wouldn't find these kinds of statements in and of them selves very compelling.
So i ask you to give us the cold hard facts (minus your trademark passion) of why why having equal gear and questionite rewards between pvp and pve actually creates inequality.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
If there are rewards for PvP, they need to be MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE to the PvE ones
Why would they need to be mutually exclusive?
On par or equal with PvE rewards should be good enough. If you can get the same reward from doing either PvP or PvE, then how in the world would anyone feel like they're forced into doing one or the other?
If you can make 8k Q in a day, and aren't a 1,000 day vet. Then how would adding Q rewards to PvP make anyone feel forced to PvP? If the gear you get from PvP is effectively the same as it is in PvE, then why would anyone go there to get gear unless they wanted to PvP?
How in the world can having an option to do something be the same as forcing someone to do that something?
Did you know that the PvP rewards are actually better than the silver champions primaries in terms of item budget? Just a little, but still!
Isn't most if not all of the pvp gear lv 40?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
One only needs to look at STO to know that having PVP Q dailies wont break the game or hurt PVE'ers. In fact it could be argued that their entire PVP community is in far worse shape then ours. And they still have that option.
More ways to earn gear or Q wont hurt. Id like to see a PVP daily. Id like also like to see more variety as well. Something more then alerts.
Like random open mission dailies. Complete a randomly chosen open mission a set number of times for credit. UNITY dailies, where I can choose my reward as either Recog or Q. More event dailies, like the destroyer missions. Why not have all of it. And with all this choice, why would anyone feel compelled to do a mission they didn't want to do?
So i ask you to give us the cold hard facts (minus your trademark passion) of why why having equal gear and questionite rewards between pvp and pve actually creates inequality.
The fact you need to even ask this shows you're either being intentionally thick, have absolutely no ability to comprehend anything, or are in fact, completely clueless.
I'm going to suggest that, if you REALLY, REALLY don't know the answer to this, you stop and think back to certain things we've seen in the past, prior to On Alert, involving exactly what's being discussed in this thread. Figure it out yourself.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The fact you need to even ask this shows you're either being intentionally thick, have absolutely no ability to comprehend anything, or are in fact, completely clueless.
I'm going to suggest that, if you REALLY, REALLY don't know the answer to this, you stop and think back to certain things we've seen in the past, prior to On Alert, involving exactly what's being discussed in this thread. Figure it out yourself.
So your going to continue to do what i was talking about in my previous post.
You can never say i didn't try to hear you out.
/shrug.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
It is. But I have no idea what that has to do with what I said.
I guess I thought you were implying that pvp rewards dont need to be revised because they are already "better".
And i guess i was implying that because you cant get pvp gear until level 40, you cant level up and stay appropriately geared with pvp rewards.
My fault if i was reading to much into your post.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
So your going to continue to do what i was talking about in my previous post.
You can never say i didn't try to hear you out.
/shrug.
No, you know the EXACT answer to your own questions. This has NOTHING to do with hearing me out, you're being intentionally thick and spouting rhetorical questions because it's all you've got. I mean, assuming you're not clueless, but I'm having a hard time understanding how if you weren't, you wouldn't be able to figure out exactly what you're asking. So it's one of the two, what's it going to be?
Even now you avoid even taking a shot at answering MY question, because answering MINE would answer YOURS. Don't act like you didn't think about this yourself and come to the EXACT same conclusions, because it doesn't even take thinking, all it takes is looking at certain points in this game's history.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
No, you know the EXACT answer to your own questions. This has NOTHING to do with hearing me out, you're being intentionally thick and spouting rhetorical questions because it's all you've got. I mean, assuming you're not clueless, but I'm having a hard time understanding how if you weren't, you wouldn't be able to figure out exactly what you're asking. So it's one of the two, what's it going to be?
Even now you avoid even taking a shot at answering MY question, because answering MINE would answer YOURS. Don't act like you didn't think about this yourself and come to the EXACT same conclusions, because it doesn't even take thinking, all it takes is looking at certain points in this game's history.
If you asked me a question in this thread directly, i messed it. Tell me the post number and ill look it up.
I'm going to suggest that, if you REALLY, REALLY don't know the answer to this, you stop and think back to certain things we've seen in the past, prior to On Alert, involving exactly what's being discussed in this thread. Figure it out yourself.
Again it wouldnt be so dificult to talk to you if you would just come out and say what your thinking.
With the above post, i assume that your referring to pre On Alert acclaim gear being the best gear. Thats not whats being suggested in this thread so im not sure how that is relevant.
To be clear we are asking PVP gear to be THE SAME as PVE gear not better.
We are also asking for PVP to reward questionite which has been proven to not break any thing because STO did it.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
You said it, finally, after much back and forth, you did. And?
This is exactly why I have no respect for most of this forum. When the obvious is shoved in their face, and they're made to spell it out, they STILL deny it.
Whether YOU want to accept it, at the best that gear was marginally better than what you could get in PvE. People NEVER did PvP because the gear was better, they did it because it was right there in plain sight, in a tangible fashion. This is what I mean by people being clueless, if you aren't being thick or not using your brain you'd realize that such a minute bonus would have resulted few people bothering as soon as it got out that it was so small. That's very, very obviously not the reason.
Here's your reason: Given a choice between screwing with a random number generator with bad odds, and a slow and steady process of gaining exactly what it is they want, most logical people will opt for the slow and steady process. THIS is why having a separate Q daily for PvP is BAD. This is why the old acclaim system was BAD. Farming Bunker Whatever left you at the mercy of the RNG gods, this people at least had some control over.
While there are equal steady progression routes available, and this would dampen the effect, the fact that this one is available on top of the PvE one would still manage to draw people otherwise not interested in PvP into PvP. Get enough of them, and you will see people in BASH, UTC and just about anything else laming out, and then coming to the forums and ******** about Freeforms in one capacity or another. If you're not careful to tweak the per match rewards VERY carefully, you WILL see people turning ZA into Zombie Farmpocolyse again. These people will manage to make lots of trouble for all parties involved. ESPECIALLY because PvPers, for good reason, wont be happy until PvP rewards are comparable to certain PvE options, meaning the devs have to hit that mark to keep both sides from griping.
Starting to understand WHY we don't have PvP rewards yet? Because IT'S A MESS.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The EASIEST way to at least START to fix this issue with minimal collateral is EXACTLY within what I think Beldin, and just about any other person who's reasonable but doesn't ever, ever want to touch PvP, would find acceptable. Make the dailies we have now give Q for either 3 of a certain alert type OR three of a certain PvP mode. As in, for instance, the missions now complete if you do three Smashes OR three UTC arenas. Possibly even a combination of them.
This will mean certain arenas will need to open up for the lower levels, but otherwise it keeps one side from ever getting more than the other while putting a serious reduction on how many PvErs decide to go get their **** kicked, piss off the regulars and then come to the forums whining about it.
At the same time, it makes queueing for games that AREN'T Bash more valuable, at least on the days their "alert type" is up. Past that, all I can say is patience, because the devs need to figure out what the average Q earn for PvE is and make PvP matches grant a similar payout over time. Seeing as they don't even seem to have that settled in PvE, this isn't going to be instant and probably doesn't need to be.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
You said it, finally, after much back and forth, you did. And?
This is exactly why I have no respect for most of this forum. When the obvious is shoved in their face, and they're made to spell it out, they STILL deny it.
This is xao's mindset - it's like the pot calling the kettle black most of the time. Worst comes to worst, he'll resort to insults when he's got nothing left to stand on.
You can't blame folks for ZA farming pre-alert. The best gear in the game then effectively came from two sources, SL Elite farming Freon (for the most part as far as blues went) and Hero Games.
On-Alert was like a complete 180, making acclaim just shy of worthless and it wasn't until the malvan perception buff that it was even worth considering a malvan emblem w/ an r5 percep core.
Since pvp penetration has absolutely no effect in the game right now (and most likely the case for pvp resilience too), making vendor rewards specifically pvp oriented is pointless. Being that I've done countless Unity and pvp, I don't see where there's any particular harm in being able to choose either route to acquire silver champ recog gear (or at least an acclaim purple equivalent).
There's no reason the rewards from the pvp vendor should exceed what's offered from the silver champ recog vendor. People would be content that their time spent pvping might actually provide a reward for a change.
This is xao's mindset - it's like the pot calling the kettle black most of the time. Worst comes to worst, he'll resort to insults when he's got nothing left to stand on.
And here is the forum hypocrite, right on time!
This is an insult, you do realize that, right? What you said? It's insulting.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Starting to understand WHY we don't have PvP rewards yet? Because IT'S A MESS.
Most of what you said doesn't add up but that's ok, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I have been nothing but respectful towards you throughout this thread and others on PTS, and in return i have been called all kinds of "thick" "clueless" and "no ability to comprehend anything" all just for having the (audacity?) to ask for your opinion.
Asking some one what they think is not grounds for personal attacks.
All i get from you is "if you disagree with me, your stupid" and when i press you for specifics of your argument you respond with "Even now you avoid even taking a shot at answering MY question". You never actually asked me a question:rolleyes: nor did you answer any of mine. Communication has broken down and its not for lack of effort on my part.
I tried to hear you out, and i did.
All i heard was unnecessary rudeness, and incoherent rambling without any facts to back anything up. You don't back up your statements with facts because your unable to. And you try to distract from that fact by name calling, flaming, and throwing personal insults.
Ive heard enough.
Ill let the jury of our piers (the readers) decide which one of us is being unreasonable.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
This is an insult, you do realize that, right? What you said? It's insulting.
It doesn't take much to offend you.
I can blatantly disagree with Kai or Silverspar on plenty of things, the difference being is when we get to the point to agree to disagree, the discussion doesn't deteriorate into "insults". I've played alongside both of them on several occasions, and while are views may differ, I can respect them as players.
I'm not gonna respect someone who makes false accusations about me to insult my credibility, especially when he/she/it fails to respond with proof backing such a claim.
You want respect, you need to learn to respect the views of other people whether you agree or not first. It's never a "discussion" with you, it's merely you stating your opinion and harping on anyone who doesn't see things the same way.
Ill let the jury of our piers (the readers) decide which one of us is being unreasonable.
They can go for it. I don't think you realize that to everyone who's NOT you, your little underhanded nicey nicey facade is about as thin and full of holes as swiss cheese. This is where Beldin's sarcasm comes from, this is where my hate of the PvP community comes from, the PvE elitist community comes from.
No one wants to deal with your crap. Most people, would rather just roll their eyes, and make sarcastic remarks. I'm about the only one left stupid enough to argue.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
They can go for it. I don't think you realize that to everyone who's NOT you, your little underhanded nicey nicey facade is about as thin and full of holes as swiss cheese. This is where Beldin's sarcasm comes from, this is where my hate of the PvP community comes from, the PvE elitist community comes from.
No one wants to deal with your crap. Most people, would rather just roll their eyes, and make sarcastic remarks. I'm about the only one left stupid enough to argue.
Now you are just back peddling and trying to make yourself look bigger when all you are doing is making yourself look petty. You already embarrassed yourself thoroughly in several threads with your constant back peddling.
Guys all the OP asked was for PvP to get an update. PvP does needs an update.
Doesnt matter if you like PvP or dont like PvP its needs a serious fixing this fact is true.
If PvP gets fixed it wouldnt affect PvE at all.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Guys all the OP asked was for PvP to get an update. PvP does needs an update.
Doesnt matter if you like PvP or dont like PvP its needs a serious fixing this fact is true.
If PvP gets fixed it wouldnt affect PvE at all.
Quite the opposite really. To fix PvP would require a serious over haul to the power system, since there are a ton of powers that are pretty much got to haves in the current system, and others that just make any PvP an absolute joke.
Quite the opposite really. To fix PvP would require a serious over haul to the power system, since there are a ton of powers that are pretty much got to haves in the current system, and others that just make any PvP an absolute joke.
Imho, there is no way to have balanced pvp in the freeform environment without a huge effort. Fotm builds will always exists and inmortals characters and 1-shot kill characters or even worse the combination of those too would make pvp not too fun to play.
The easiest way to achieve balanced and more challenging pvp is creating ATs for pvp, so much easier to adjust and people can feel rewarded for playing some role.
It would also need to focus on team pvp, balancing 1v1 is also pretty difficult. I know people are not so fond of WoW but battleground and arena scheme are something that can give devs some ideas on were to start.
Quite the opposite really. To fix PvP would require a serious over haul to the power system, since there are a ton of powers that are pretty much got to haves in the current system, and others that just make any PvP an absolute joke.
HEADDESK
All it needs to get up and running again is Q and better gear. It doesnt need to be perfect.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Q I can agree with, but gear? Q is already giving you access to the best secondary gear, the primary ones are trivial to get, what gear would pvp get?
Who cares as long as it is new and shiny. Seriously its very easy to get Hero Games running again all it needs is useless fluff items like some sort of device , say you one shot 1000 infernos in bash you get something like GANK SPEED. Or daft gear that makes your eyes glow a new color. Die to much you could get a become a Foxbat device
Seriously that kind of stuff would work wonders for hero games its doesnt need to be anything well thought out or anything. I swear more people would PvP if it would mean a chance of getting a permanent foam finger device.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Q I can agree with, but gear? Q is already giving you access to the best secondary gear, the primary ones are trivial to get, what gear would pvp get?
Something similar to recognition venders.
In PVE you just do missions, you get recognition that you can use to buy gear and thus keep your gear up to date as you play.
Back when the queues were popping b4 On Alert, if you devote a significant amount of your leveling time in pvp, then you wont be able to keep your gear up to date without stopping and farming recognition or G for new gear.
Part of a smooth leveling experience is being able to gain exp AND gear as you go.
Hell, I don't see a problem with letting PVP reward recognition some how.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Quite the opposite really. To fix PvP would require a serious over haul to the power system, since there are a ton of powers that are pretty much got to haves in the current system, and others that just make any PvP an absolute joke.
I think this is asking too much.
1. Even if (hypothetically) the devs pulled a 180 and decided to make PVP the focus of power balance, they wouldn't succeed. Power balance for PVE is still off, what makes you think Power balance for PVP can be achieved?
2. Balance is an on going process and not a destination. It cant be achieved, only shrived for. Because of that, i believe the PVPers will complain about balance no matter what happens.
3. I may be in the minority on this but i don't mind the imbalance of PVP. This is a comic book game and in comics, ppl get matched up against ppl stronger than them all the time.
The only PVP balance changes that i think mite be worthwhile wouldn't affect PVE any way. for example: Reworking hold mechanics and holds, Reworking how block/crippling challenge work, I also always wondered how a variation of COXs PVP taunt mechanic would work in CO (ie when you are taunted by a tank in pvp, you are forced to target the one that taunted you).
I think that 1v1 can never be balanced here, team v team balance requires players to build the teams them selves and a queue cant do that. The best way to give every one an opportunity to shine is objective based pvp that's not based on kills. I think CO attempted this with Strong hold and kOTH but seem to have missed the mark. I would suggest looking at other MMOs that have had success with these kind of pvp modes and copy/paste them here to save time and effort. I also think Base Raiding could be a fun objective based PVP.
but none of that matters if we cant get rewards settled.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
3. I may be in the minority on this but i don't mind the imbalance of PVP.
Personally I've always felt the very concept of PvP balance is a bit of a myth. There's really no way to truly balance PvP in a MMO.
If you mean balance is a state where any one character can beat any other character assuming equal skilled players. That normally means 1v1 balance, and that is simply impossible to pull off. You can have this type of balance in a FPS game. Because it's possible to balance one gun vs a different one.
Even if you balance around teams, you're still looking at a optimal vs suboptimal team makeup. The issue there is that means pugs are always going to have a huge disadvantage over premade groups. Now if you deal strictly with Class or in this case AT's it's possible to achieve some semblance of balance, in as much as any AT can be useful in a PvP match. However quite often doing so means a round of nerfs and buffs that get everyone up in arms.
Freeform simply throws all that out the window. A freeform character can be an order of magnitude more powerful then a AT, or be completely gimped and there is no way to balance such a thing. So if you're going to work on PvP in CO, I'd say the very first thing you have to accept is the concept of balance in the traditional MMO sense has to be thrown out the window. That or else bar Freeform characters from PvP completely. Even if you separate AT and FF into two different brackets, you simply can not balance FF builds.
As far as rewards go, it's simple really.
All PvP needs is rewards equal to what you can currently get in PvE. If you figure it takes X hours of Unity missions to get one of the Sliver Champ items, then make an item that's comparable or even identical to that, and have it take X hours of PvP play to earn it. But you'd also want to have other lower level gear for PvP'ers that is also on par with lower level PvE gear, but can be bought with acclaim.
Same goes for Q rewards. Set it to be equal to PvE and call it good enough.
I'm mostly a PvE player and I heartily support PvP rewards. If a player chooses to participate in both PvE and PvP, I don't see why they're not supposed to be rewarded accordingly.
I'm mostly a PvE player and I heartily support PvP rewards. If a player chooses to participate in both PvE and PvP, I don't see why they're not supposed to be rewarded accordingly.
There is a lot of side bar conversations going on now. Keep it simple / Crush's original plan.
Step 1. Provide equal gear rewards in terms of stat value and cost to the PVP vendors.
Step 2. Convert Acclaim to Questionite.
Then stop. Wait. Measure. Then proceed further or stop.
The above quote encapsulates the essence of keeping it simple. The more complex you get with multiple ideas and confuse this thread further the less likely we will see a developers response. My outline above was what Crush said he was going to do all along but never did because of a lack of time to complete the PVE portions of the On Alert Pass.
Now he needs to finish the whole game through the pass.
How about an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition?
Currency conversion is already a dominant theme in this game with various tiers of recognition being convertible and the ability to convert between Zen and Questionite.
If you allow PVPers to trade in Acclaim for Recognition, then PVP will have access to all the ON Alert stuff instantly (gear, costume pieces ect) instantly bringing parity between PVP and PVE rewards.
I think this is the path of least resistance.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Comments
It doesn't force anyone - I can hit 8k without ever touching an alert or even hassling with a nemcon. I choose not to
Definitely not the worst gold pvper.
Beldin makes a good point though. Making them mutually exclusive would resolve the issue of feeling like I have to PVP to keep up with the Jones'. Mainly because the PVP daily would have to be based on wins, otherwise you'd have pikers just along for the ride trying to cause a loss as quickly as possible to 'hurry up' and finish the daily.
Formerly Aeolwind
Nothing witty, just angst.
Primus Database of Characters
40 Count = 6
Thanks for not calling me out by name
Formerly Aeolwind
Nothing witty, just angst.
Primus Database of Characters
40 Count = 6
The concept that having the option to do something is forcing someone to do it is absurd.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Dont take this away from me , Your stepping on my dreams :O
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
But you never even have to touch a daily to hit 8k. That was my point. You don't need to do dailys at all to earn questionite. You don't have to wait for certain bosses to spawn, any of that mess - there are actual options in pursuing questionite. My most efficient manner doesn't involve a team or a daily at all.
I wouldn't be too worried about people suiciding or feeding to get through a pvp daily quickly - most players have an aversion to seeing their character die, which is why a number of people avoid pvp altogether.
Aren't you supposed to sit on something =P
and that's "you're"
There will always be people who feel like threatened by any viable option outside their preference. These kinds of arguments are driven by emotion and ego and not logic. Because of that, no amount of rationality will convince some one who argues from the position stated above.
Didn't we have a similar issue with people claiming that the addition of vehicle missions with rewards would force them to do said missions?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Umm, it was the same person. Seeing a pattern emerge?
I didn't know that. hmm...
"This is why we cant have nice things."
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
This is not a PvP game, and no matter how much griping and delusion there is from that crowd, it never will be one. PvP in this game is less balanced than the old MVC games, and always will be, because the system isn't in any way cohesive to a PvP environment. It will always be a select few players abusing the hell out of frankenbuilds and very few people want to be a part of that. Anyone trying to ignore this or act like it's not the case needs their head checked.
Also, I'm pretty sure what secksegai is referring to is an exploit that will eventually be fixed. Unless he cares to clarify and explain what his "method" is? Because if it's what I think it is, it's better it not be mentioned. Discounting that, Nemcon and Alerts ARE the only real way to get a large sum of Q.
As with Gravitar and Smoke Nades, trying to make an argument based on things that are likely to be viewed as exploits is retarded.
Yes, that person used common sense while the rest of the forums went DUUUURRRRRRP.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I totally agree, I use my stipend for the questionite to spend on secondaries. I don't farm much of anything but XP anymore lol. Coupled with what I find each month just leveling it is plenty to afford them.
Worried isn't the term I'd use for it, trying to avoid the 'WHAAAAAAA' from the PVP crowd because they keep getting teamed with 'unenthused' participants.
Formerly Aeolwind
Nothing witty, just angst.
Primus Database of Characters
40 Count = 6
Passionate as your arguments may be, I hope you can see why I wouldn't find these kinds of statements in and of them selves very compelling.
So i ask you to give us the cold hard facts (minus your trademark passion) of why why having equal gear and questionite rewards between pvp and pve actually creates inequality.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Why would they need to be mutually exclusive?
On par or equal with PvE rewards should be good enough. If you can get the same reward from doing either PvP or PvE, then how in the world would anyone feel like they're forced into doing one or the other?
If you can make 8k Q in a day, and aren't a 1,000 day vet. Then how would adding Q rewards to PvP make anyone feel forced to PvP? If the gear you get from PvP is effectively the same as it is in PvE, then why would anyone go there to get gear unless they wanted to PvP?
How in the world can having an option to do something be the same as forcing someone to do that something?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
More ways to earn gear or Q wont hurt. Id like to see a PVP daily. Id like also like to see more variety as well. Something more then alerts.
Like random open mission dailies. Complete a randomly chosen open mission a set number of times for credit. UNITY dailies, where I can choose my reward as either Recog or Q. More event dailies, like the destroyer missions. Why not have all of it. And with all this choice, why would anyone feel compelled to do a mission they didn't want to do?
It is. But I have no idea what that has to do with what I said.
The fact you need to even ask this shows you're either being intentionally thick, have absolutely no ability to comprehend anything, or are in fact, completely clueless.
I'm going to suggest that, if you REALLY, REALLY don't know the answer to this, you stop and think back to certain things we've seen in the past, prior to On Alert, involving exactly what's being discussed in this thread. Figure it out yourself.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
You can never say i didn't try to hear you out.
/shrug.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
And i guess i was implying that because you cant get pvp gear until level 40, you cant level up and stay appropriately geared with pvp rewards.
My fault if i was reading to much into your post.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
No, you know the EXACT answer to your own questions. This has NOTHING to do with hearing me out, you're being intentionally thick and spouting rhetorical questions because it's all you've got. I mean, assuming you're not clueless, but I'm having a hard time understanding how if you weren't, you wouldn't be able to figure out exactly what you're asking. So it's one of the two, what's it going to be?
Even now you avoid even taking a shot at answering MY question, because answering MINE would answer YOURS. Don't act like you didn't think about this yourself and come to the EXACT same conclusions, because it doesn't even take thinking, all it takes is looking at certain points in this game's history.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Again it wouldnt be so dificult to talk to you if you would just come out and say what your thinking.
With the above post, i assume that your referring to pre On Alert acclaim gear being the best gear. Thats not whats being suggested in this thread so im not sure how that is relevant.
To be clear we are asking PVP gear to be THE SAME as PVE gear not better.
We are also asking for PVP to reward questionite which has been proven to not break any thing because STO did it.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
This is exactly why I have no respect for most of this forum. When the obvious is shoved in their face, and they're made to spell it out, they STILL deny it.
Whether YOU want to accept it, at the best that gear was marginally better than what you could get in PvE. People NEVER did PvP because the gear was better, they did it because it was right there in plain sight, in a tangible fashion. This is what I mean by people being clueless, if you aren't being thick or not using your brain you'd realize that such a minute bonus would have resulted few people bothering as soon as it got out that it was so small. That's very, very obviously not the reason.
Here's your reason: Given a choice between screwing with a random number generator with bad odds, and a slow and steady process of gaining exactly what it is they want, most logical people will opt for the slow and steady process. THIS is why having a separate Q daily for PvP is BAD. This is why the old acclaim system was BAD. Farming Bunker Whatever left you at the mercy of the RNG gods, this people at least had some control over.
While there are equal steady progression routes available, and this would dampen the effect, the fact that this one is available on top of the PvE one would still manage to draw people otherwise not interested in PvP into PvP. Get enough of them, and you will see people in BASH, UTC and just about anything else laming out, and then coming to the forums and ******** about Freeforms in one capacity or another. If you're not careful to tweak the per match rewards VERY carefully, you WILL see people turning ZA into Zombie Farmpocolyse again. These people will manage to make lots of trouble for all parties involved. ESPECIALLY because PvPers, for good reason, wont be happy until PvP rewards are comparable to certain PvE options, meaning the devs have to hit that mark to keep both sides from griping.
Starting to understand WHY we don't have PvP rewards yet? Because IT'S A MESS.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The EASIEST way to at least START to fix this issue with minimal collateral is EXACTLY within what I think Beldin, and just about any other person who's reasonable but doesn't ever, ever want to touch PvP, would find acceptable. Make the dailies we have now give Q for either 3 of a certain alert type OR three of a certain PvP mode. As in, for instance, the missions now complete if you do three Smashes OR three UTC arenas. Possibly even a combination of them.
This will mean certain arenas will need to open up for the lower levels, but otherwise it keeps one side from ever getting more than the other while putting a serious reduction on how many PvErs decide to go get their **** kicked, piss off the regulars and then come to the forums whining about it.
At the same time, it makes queueing for games that AREN'T Bash more valuable, at least on the days their "alert type" is up. Past that, all I can say is patience, because the devs need to figure out what the average Q earn for PvE is and make PvP matches grant a similar payout over time. Seeing as they don't even seem to have that settled in PvE, this isn't going to be instant and probably doesn't need to be.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
This is xao's mindset - it's like the pot calling the kettle black most of the time. Worst comes to worst, he'll resort to insults when he's got nothing left to stand on.
You can't blame folks for ZA farming pre-alert. The best gear in the game then effectively came from two sources, SL Elite farming Freon (for the most part as far as blues went) and Hero Games.
On-Alert was like a complete 180, making acclaim just shy of worthless and it wasn't until the malvan perception buff that it was even worth considering a malvan emblem w/ an r5 percep core.
Since pvp penetration has absolutely no effect in the game right now (and most likely the case for pvp resilience too), making vendor rewards specifically pvp oriented is pointless. Being that I've done countless Unity and pvp, I don't see where there's any particular harm in being able to choose either route to acquire silver champ recog gear (or at least an acclaim purple equivalent).
There's no reason the rewards from the pvp vendor should exceed what's offered from the silver champ recog vendor. People would be content that their time spent pvping might actually provide a reward for a change.
And here is the forum hypocrite, right on time!
This is an insult, you do realize that, right? What you said? It's insulting.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Most of what you said doesn't add up but that's ok, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I have been nothing but respectful towards you throughout this thread and others on PTS, and in return i have been called all kinds of "thick" "clueless" and "no ability to comprehend anything" all just for having the (audacity?) to ask for your opinion.
Asking some one what they think is not grounds for personal attacks.
All i get from you is "if you disagree with me, your stupid" and when i press you for specifics of your argument you respond with "Even now you avoid even taking a shot at answering MY question". You never actually asked me a question:rolleyes: nor did you answer any of mine. Communication has broken down and its not for lack of effort on my part.
I tried to hear you out, and i did.
All i heard was unnecessary rudeness, and incoherent rambling without any facts to back anything up. You don't back up your statements with facts because your unable to. And you try to distract from that fact by name calling, flaming, and throwing personal insults.
Ive heard enough.
Ill let the jury of our piers (the readers) decide which one of us is being unreasonable.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
It doesn't take much to offend you.
I can blatantly disagree with Kai or Silverspar on plenty of things, the difference being is when we get to the point to agree to disagree, the discussion doesn't deteriorate into "insults". I've played alongside both of them on several occasions, and while are views may differ, I can respect them as players.
I'm not gonna respect someone who makes false accusations about me to insult my credibility, especially when he/she/it fails to respond with proof backing such a claim.
You want respect, you need to learn to respect the views of other people whether you agree or not first. It's never a "discussion" with you, it's merely you stating your opinion and harping on anyone who doesn't see things the same way.
They can go for it. I don't think you realize that to everyone who's NOT you, your little underhanded nicey nicey facade is about as thin and full of holes as swiss cheese. This is where Beldin's sarcasm comes from, this is where my hate of the PvP community comes from, the PvE elitist community comes from.
No one wants to deal with your crap. Most people, would rather just roll their eyes, and make sarcastic remarks. I'm about the only one left stupid enough to argue.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Now you are just back peddling and trying to make yourself look bigger when all you are doing is making yourself look petty. You already embarrassed yourself thoroughly in several threads with your constant back peddling.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
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Doesnt matter if you like PvP or dont like PvP its needs a serious fixing this fact is true.
If PvP gets fixed it wouldnt affect PvE at all.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Quite the opposite really. To fix PvP would require a serious over haul to the power system, since there are a ton of powers that are pretty much got to haves in the current system, and others that just make any PvP an absolute joke.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Imho, there is no way to have balanced pvp in the freeform environment without a huge effort. Fotm builds will always exists and inmortals characters and 1-shot kill characters or even worse the combination of those too would make pvp not too fun to play.
The easiest way to achieve balanced and more challenging pvp is creating ATs for pvp, so much easier to adjust and people can feel rewarded for playing some role.
It would also need to focus on team pvp, balancing 1v1 is also pretty difficult. I know people are not so fond of WoW but battleground and arena scheme are something that can give devs some ideas on were to start.
HEADDESK
All it needs to get up and running again is Q and better gear. It doesnt need to be perfect.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Q I can agree with, but gear? Q is already giving you access to the best secondary gear, the primary ones are trivial to get, what gear would pvp get?
Who cares as long as it is new and shiny. Seriously its very easy to get Hero Games running again all it needs is useless fluff items like some sort of device , say you one shot 1000 infernos in bash you get something like GANK SPEED. Or daft gear that makes your eyes glow a new color. Die to much you could get a become a Foxbat device
Seriously that kind of stuff would work wonders for hero games its doesnt need to be anything well thought out or anything. I swear more people would PvP if it would mean a chance of getting a permanent foam finger device.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
In PVE you just do missions, you get recognition that you can use to buy gear and thus keep your gear up to date as you play.
Back when the queues were popping b4 On Alert, if you devote a significant amount of your leveling time in pvp, then you wont be able to keep your gear up to date without stopping and farming recognition or G for new gear.
Part of a smooth leveling experience is being able to gain exp AND gear as you go.
Hell, I don't see a problem with letting PVP reward recognition some how.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
1. Even if (hypothetically) the devs pulled a 180 and decided to make PVP the focus of power balance, they wouldn't succeed. Power balance for PVE is still off, what makes you think Power balance for PVP can be achieved?
2. Balance is an on going process and not a destination. It cant be achieved, only shrived for. Because of that, i believe the PVPers will complain about balance no matter what happens.
3. I may be in the minority on this but i don't mind the imbalance of PVP. This is a comic book game and in comics, ppl get matched up against ppl stronger than them all the time.
The only PVP balance changes that i think mite be worthwhile wouldn't affect PVE any way. for example: Reworking hold mechanics and holds, Reworking how block/crippling challenge work, I also always wondered how a variation of COXs PVP taunt mechanic would work in CO (ie when you are taunted by a tank in pvp, you are forced to target the one that taunted you).
I think that 1v1 can never be balanced here, team v team balance requires players to build the teams them selves and a queue cant do that. The best way to give every one an opportunity to shine is objective based pvp that's not based on kills. I think CO attempted this with Strong hold and kOTH but seem to have missed the mark. I would suggest looking at other MMOs that have had success with these kind of pvp modes and copy/paste them here to save time and effort. I also think Base Raiding could be a fun objective based PVP.
but none of that matters if we cant get rewards settled.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Personally I've always felt the very concept of PvP balance is a bit of a myth. There's really no way to truly balance PvP in a MMO.
If you mean balance is a state where any one character can beat any other character assuming equal skilled players. That normally means 1v1 balance, and that is simply impossible to pull off. You can have this type of balance in a FPS game. Because it's possible to balance one gun vs a different one.
Even if you balance around teams, you're still looking at a optimal vs suboptimal team makeup. The issue there is that means pugs are always going to have a huge disadvantage over premade groups. Now if you deal strictly with Class or in this case AT's it's possible to achieve some semblance of balance, in as much as any AT can be useful in a PvP match. However quite often doing so means a round of nerfs and buffs that get everyone up in arms.
Freeform simply throws all that out the window. A freeform character can be an order of magnitude more powerful then a AT, or be completely gimped and there is no way to balance such a thing. So if you're going to work on PvP in CO, I'd say the very first thing you have to accept is the concept of balance in the traditional MMO sense has to be thrown out the window. That or else bar Freeform characters from PvP completely. Even if you separate AT and FF into two different brackets, you simply can not balance FF builds.
As far as rewards go, it's simple really.
All PvP needs is rewards equal to what you can currently get in PvE. If you figure it takes X hours of Unity missions to get one of the Sliver Champ items, then make an item that's comparable or even identical to that, and have it take X hours of PvP play to earn it. But you'd also want to have other lower level gear for PvP'ers that is also on par with lower level PvE gear, but can be bought with acclaim.
Same goes for Q rewards. Set it to be equal to PvE and call it good enough.
There is a lot of side bar conversations going on now. Keep it simple / Crush's original plan.
Step 1. Provide equal gear rewards in terms of stat value and cost to the PVP vendors.
Step 2. Convert Acclaim to Questionite.
Then stop. Wait. Measure. Then proceed further or stop.
The above quote encapsulates the essence of keeping it simple. The more complex you get with multiple ideas and confuse this thread further the less likely we will see a developers response. My outline above was what Crush said he was going to do all along but never did because of a lack of time to complete the PVE portions of the On Alert Pass.
Now he needs to finish the whole game through the pass.
-Xeno.
Currency conversion is already a dominant theme in this game with various tiers of recognition being convertible and the ability to convert between Zen and Questionite.
If you allow PVPers to trade in Acclaim for Recognition, then PVP will have access to all the ON Alert stuff instantly (gear, costume pieces ect) instantly bringing parity between PVP and PVE rewards.
I think this is the path of least resistance.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.