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Telepathy: A Look in inside the mind (of Devs)
gamehobo
Posts: 1,970 Arc User
To follow up on my post 9 months ago, Telepathy a History of Nerf. Many people in game who are new ask "what happened to telepathy?" and "JayBezz, I read all the nerfs you posted.. but.. Why did they do it?"
To find the motive of what I (am told that I ) consider a crime (genocide was it Sage?). We must go INSIDE the minds of the developers at the time of said murders of the telepathic themed characters. Instead of necro-threading the information, all of which is still valid, I will try to provide insight on just how we got to the state were in: How in a superhero game, the least desired power framesworks are that of a comic book telepath (arguably Marvel Comics license's bread and butter from 1979 to 1995 aka the age of the game key demographic).
I will try my best to remember the approximate timing of each "Nerf" and post them in same approximate order. I do hope you telepaths (that are left) enjoy this look into dev psyche at what can only be described as reliving all of your most painful moments for my masochistic pleasure. If for any reason through reliving this trauma you experience rage, post traumatic stress, or an overwhelming desire to punch someone.. please remember that I am doing this for you as much as for me.
A reminder, the cuts and wounds from all this hack and slash of the framework are all still open and this non-medicinal salt WILL burn, because all of the "Nerf" you're about to read.. was never remedied or compensated for in order to heal the set back to a semblance of usefulness.. instead while clinging on for dear life, trying to find a pulse all of its peers got full medical attention and pumped full of steroids.
Enjoy
- -
PRE LAUNCH/ BETA:
No Passive, No Block, No Active Offense, No Active Defense, No On Next Hit.. It became clear that this set was struggling to find it's raison d'etre. However in the early days, passives were tied directly to specific stats. PRE/EGO was the suggested stat for telepaths and many chose PRE for its healing qualities. This lead to most telepaths using Sorcery Auras.. and the most thematic of them being Aura of Clarity for looks. No one really considered it a "design flaw" because back then every subscriber had access to the freeform power selection system and could go out of set as desired.
Ego Sprites - The healing done on Ego Sprites would also stack providing the caster with a good flow of incoming heals during battle while doing very VERY little damage to the enemy. At the time you must remember this was one of the ONLY healing sets in champions online. In order to use all of these SINGLE TARGET heals on allies (they also broke on incoming damage) and keep yourself alive this was seen as a good power to choose. This is perhaps one of 2 occasions that I can remember being nerfed because "PvE was too easy". The heals provided by this power were much less than Sentinel Aura provides now.
POST LAUNCH:
Developers were going crazy. Trying to be sure the game-crashing bugs could be alleviated. About a month and a half in the playerbase was happy and full of promise. PvP duels became popular (and Xenomorph Drone's infamy was just being born).
Psi-Lash - The 10% ego damage debuff advantage was a FAVORITE choice among PvP min/maxers. IT was a free way to debuff enemies defenses with a mechanic that (at the time) people need to use, the energy builder. Many players found it tedious to use because to take it you had to either use two more of telepathy's powers (No Block, No Passive) or choose a tier 0 from a neighboring set (the obvious choice). In early days devs listened to player feedback and tried to respond to cries that PvP was too imbalanced (what fools a fool then is still foolish to them now). They eventually removed the debuff in favor of a boon to damage. This is an all around NERF because telepathy is a low damage set all around. Adding 10% to nothing is still nothing, where conversely subtracting 10% from something is, in fact, something.
Mind Lock - In those days of PvP dueling Confuses (Mind Lock, Charm and Soul Mesmerism) gained slow notoriety. Personal anecdotal knowledge.. they were the CRUX of my build having all 3 of these powers (which had cooldowns) made me a very squishy however still formidable PvP threat. However they became conspicuous and soon many freeform builds had them (not for long once they found how SHORT a time you could confuse an enemy under fire). However a game exploit became known to the duelist Min/Maxer crowd. They thought it was then FUN to go and kill NPC Quest giving characters in the open world. They would go map to map killing the tailors and Kinetic and others so that NO ONE ELSE could enjoy the game. This was only 2 or 3 players who really enjoyed being spoilers. So the devs made confuses no longer work in PvP. There WAS a promise that it would return.. they just needed to find a way to make NPC's immune. Thus many NPC's recieved grey, non-targetable names. It was assumed that this fix was going game wide for ALL NPC characters however.. they never finished (pattern?). PvP confuse has never resurfaced. NPC Characters have not been "grey'd out". You dont see them remove damage because people keep breaking the bench i like to sit on.. And yet they made some instances where the furniture doesn't break. Preferential treatment favoring everyone but telepathy is commonplace. I may hold a personal grudge against these spoiler players for the lifetime of the game for the death of my thematic build. However those new players who repeat the drole "Confuses in PvP were removed because they are overpowered", you are wrong.
Collective Will - Players originally coupled the ego debuff of psi-lash with the debuff from collective will to do adequate damage. This meant 5K hits from incoming Wills. At the time this was considered outrageous, so the entire power was Nerfed.. including no longer giving extra Wills for using confuses <-- Yeah those still existed. PvP nerf that by today's standards wouldn't even be considered Good damage.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE: BLOOD MOON
The introduction of Celestial powers is an unintended nerf to telepathy but was felt by telepaths far and wide. The healing potential done by Celestial powers far outweighed what had once been only available to telepaths and sorcerers (many players of which were a mixture of both). Around this time the "Cancels on incoming damage" portion of Empathic Healing and Arcane Vitality were removed, but still the raw outgoing heals of Celestial far outshined what telepathy or sorcery could offer. The introduction of Stronghold's PvP Map did however give a tiny glimmer of hope into me using confuses again.. however by this time Supernatural Power lost it's ability to perform mass confuses and I was nerfed by association.
Mind Link - was created. All of the tier 4 powers were released without PTS testing. It became immediate and abundantly clear that this power sucked major balls. Telepathy toons never really wanted high EGO in the first Place and both telepathy and Telekinesis were considered squshy.. this power became known as "Kamikaze" in all notable telepathy circles.. This was ESPECIALLY disheartening because of the PAIN a player had to go through to get 10 telepathy/tk powers to use the passive in the first place. It was a slap in the face and the devs didn't care.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE: FREE 2 PLAY
Aye. I just looked back at the patch notes. The first of the "Kitchen Sink" passes did alot to try to homogenize freeform building. This unfortunately also lead to the VERY short sighted "Holds are too strong in PvP" conversation.
As someone who exclusively used holds in PvP I am horrified at the develepoer response. To refresh memory: UNFORTUNATELY the "Str breaks tangible and Ego breaks intangible holds" was never implimented. Instead of actually implimenting it they decided to go with a completely NEW hold system in which after being held 3 times (by any hold) you are immune to holding. This was sold to players as a "simpler less complicated version" when in actuality it is MANY more nuances than the original version. First: Holds being "complicated to calculate?" is bunk. There is a HUGE server running the calculations for you.. it's not like you're sitting by an abacus counting the hold v hold resistance on each application. The UI team dropped the ball by never (and still not) showing the hold strength of a hold in the powers description. Everything is "less complicated" when the values are shown to the consumer (*cough Grab Bags).
The second argument was "If someone uses Ego Storm and I break free I'm Held again. As is implimented now, there should have been a short immunity to holds after breaking free the first time. This whole idea was overkill and led to Melee becoming even weaker and less desireable in PvP than before. This is also the first and only time developers gutted an entire system in the name of PvP (the result being PvP getting more imbalanced than before). I believed then (and still do now) that malevolent manifestation should be a toggle, not a summon.
Ego Sleep - Was the most noticably affected by this new Crowd Control rule. Now when teaming, Ego Sleep became a liability to use because damaging the target would get them steps closer to immunity.
Ego Blast - This nerf too came because of the change in ithe hold system. Stuns at 100ft did nothing but provide enemies a free stack of hold resistance. However the devs failed to notice that telepathy HAD no other 100ft crowd control powers. Archery became the only 100ft stun and telepathy lost it's only defense from long ranged attackers in PvP.
Ego Placate - I really don't now and never did understand this nerf. The incoming damage of enemies could be stacked up to 13 stacks and had to be maintained (using nothing but ego placate) to do so. This didn't even cut incoming damage in half in final math.. I don't understand AT ALL why it was nerfed.. it was the only thing telepaths had for means of damage mitigation. I dont think anyone complained about it.. it was just egregious
Ego Storm - Became stationary.. making the power unusable in PvP. Don't know what to say about this other than.. WTF. I thought at the time it would come with a pairing nerf of Malevolent Manifestation, turning MM into a toggle, mobile form of Ego Storm. I should have learned THEN not to trust the intent of Cryptic Developers. Because I dont want it forgotten I will post it twice. This was the beginning of "Incapacitates" in the form of "Maintained Paralyzes" .. instead of just remaining a "Hold Over Time" it got it's own mechanic.. This was the beginning of the end.. and for what? So they could KEEP this broken **** hold system.
Summon Nightmare - Somewhere around this time it lost the ability to survive after its target died. And since this set takes SO much setup that advantage was extremely valuable. Instead, now when teaming no one wants to see a Summon Nightmare because it'll just die off.. and it takes HELLA long just to cast it. I dont know why they took that either.. Mostly because petmaster builds were out of control. But what was "TOO MUCH" then is commonplace now. Even still being a telepathy petmaster was hard with them surviving a full 60 seconds.
Psychic Vortex - Beyond the fact that this power has always been very weak for a Tier 2 power, the advantage became bugged. No longer stunning targets it began giving away free hold resistance stacks. Also the mapping never worked like a normal pet would so instead of fixing the issue they made the power stationary.. again killing it's very small amount of useful application, Specifically in PvP. I'd have to say indolence was the largest factor in this decision.
Mindful Reinforcement - It really lost its tier 3 status after Protection field could be cast without cooldowns. It was an indirect nerf, and one I actually agree with, but the power should be moved down to tier two.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE: ON ALERT (The final injustice)
Crowd Controls Darkest hour. Incapacitates were formed. Ego choke and other powers became stationary (and thus useless in PvP). There is a small break of Hold immunity after breaking free of any hold, yet a player can still build hold resistance stacks. PvE Holds do not provide players the same hold resistance stacks as in PvP. There is a gear review and Crowd Control is COMPLETELY ignored in it. CC Resist gear becomes useless (also loses its knock resistance because Ame didn't consider it Crowd Control?... yeah...). JayBezz goes insane.. quits game for over 30 days to cool off, still raging on the forums. Devs remain conspicuously quiet on the issue of Crowd Control even tho they hinted at doing a Crowd Control review for On Alert in no less than 3 postings.
Manipulator - is born. A Toggle form that allows an increase of crowd control, that is still useless in both PvE and PvP teaming. The previous "review of crowd control" feels closer than ever yet they give this dry meatless bone to telepaths whom they must consider no better than dogs. The Toggle does not function on half of the crowd control powers and takes much longer to ramp up. A developer promises that the power will now work when players attempt to use crowd control powers (incapacitates... ) and yet it still does not function with many crowd control powers.
The end of this walk down Telepathy Lane is bleak enough when subjected to the ghettos of its own framework.. however while all of these immense and deep resented Nerfs happened, seemingly EVERY other powerset got stronger, learned to live longer, to fight harder.
Telepathy sits now in a corner wearing what can only be described as a Dunce cap. Players (the ones that haven't left champions online) have long awaited its vengeful, Carrie-like comeuppance. But this will not come to pass.. It has been 9 months since "Telepathy: a History of Nerf" and all that telepathy has seen.. is more neglect and deeper Nerfs. One player has continued playing .. trying to speak as a semi-champion for telepathy. But even champions do fatigue (unless they're on Champions Online where they can tank indefinitely). The once proud JayBezz is gone. "Gamehobo" a weak semblance of what once was. Increase in player knowledge had lead to further outcry but the malevolent developers continue to quash cries for rebellion via the release of outdate, pointless alerts and rehashed, unimaginative costumes and yes.. more buffs and new powers to other existing frameworks. And on the tombstone where the was once a proud framework is now an epitaph reading:
"Here lies telepathy. The red-headed firebird will rise again" ((God I hate you Chris Claremont)).
To find the motive of what I (am told that I ) consider a crime (genocide was it Sage?). We must go INSIDE the minds of the developers at the time of said murders of the telepathic themed characters. Instead of necro-threading the information, all of which is still valid, I will try to provide insight on just how we got to the state were in: How in a superhero game, the least desired power framesworks are that of a comic book telepath (arguably Marvel Comics license's bread and butter from 1979 to 1995 aka the age of the game key demographic).
I will try my best to remember the approximate timing of each "Nerf" and post them in same approximate order. I do hope you telepaths (that are left) enjoy this look into dev psyche at what can only be described as reliving all of your most painful moments for my masochistic pleasure. If for any reason through reliving this trauma you experience rage, post traumatic stress, or an overwhelming desire to punch someone.. please remember that I am doing this for you as much as for me.
A reminder, the cuts and wounds from all this hack and slash of the framework are all still open and this non-medicinal salt WILL burn, because all of the "Nerf" you're about to read.. was never remedied or compensated for in order to heal the set back to a semblance of usefulness.. instead while clinging on for dear life, trying to find a pulse all of its peers got full medical attention and pumped full of steroids.
Enjoy
- -
PRE LAUNCH/ BETA:
No Passive, No Block, No Active Offense, No Active Defense, No On Next Hit.. It became clear that this set was struggling to find it's raison d'etre. However in the early days, passives were tied directly to specific stats. PRE/EGO was the suggested stat for telepaths and many chose PRE for its healing qualities. This lead to most telepaths using Sorcery Auras.. and the most thematic of them being Aura of Clarity for looks. No one really considered it a "design flaw" because back then every subscriber had access to the freeform power selection system and could go out of set as desired.
Ego Sprites - The healing done on Ego Sprites would also stack providing the caster with a good flow of incoming heals during battle while doing very VERY little damage to the enemy. At the time you must remember this was one of the ONLY healing sets in champions online. In order to use all of these SINGLE TARGET heals on allies (they also broke on incoming damage) and keep yourself alive this was seen as a good power to choose. This is perhaps one of 2 occasions that I can remember being nerfed because "PvE was too easy". The heals provided by this power were much less than Sentinel Aura provides now.
POST LAUNCH:
Developers were going crazy. Trying to be sure the game-crashing bugs could be alleviated. About a month and a half in the playerbase was happy and full of promise. PvP duels became popular (and Xenomorph Drone's infamy was just being born).
Psi-Lash - The 10% ego damage debuff advantage was a FAVORITE choice among PvP min/maxers. IT was a free way to debuff enemies defenses with a mechanic that (at the time) people need to use, the energy builder. Many players found it tedious to use because to take it you had to either use two more of telepathy's powers (No Block, No Passive) or choose a tier 0 from a neighboring set (the obvious choice). In early days devs listened to player feedback and tried to respond to cries that PvP was too imbalanced (what fools a fool then is still foolish to them now). They eventually removed the debuff in favor of a boon to damage. This is an all around NERF because telepathy is a low damage set all around. Adding 10% to nothing is still nothing, where conversely subtracting 10% from something is, in fact, something.
Mind Lock - In those days of PvP dueling Confuses (Mind Lock, Charm and Soul Mesmerism) gained slow notoriety. Personal anecdotal knowledge.. they were the CRUX of my build having all 3 of these powers (which had cooldowns) made me a very squishy however still formidable PvP threat. However they became conspicuous and soon many freeform builds had them (not for long once they found how SHORT a time you could confuse an enemy under fire). However a game exploit became known to the duelist Min/Maxer crowd. They thought it was then FUN to go and kill NPC Quest giving characters in the open world. They would go map to map killing the tailors and Kinetic and others so that NO ONE ELSE could enjoy the game. This was only 2 or 3 players who really enjoyed being spoilers. So the devs made confuses no longer work in PvP. There WAS a promise that it would return.. they just needed to find a way to make NPC's immune. Thus many NPC's recieved grey, non-targetable names. It was assumed that this fix was going game wide for ALL NPC characters however.. they never finished (pattern?). PvP confuse has never resurfaced. NPC Characters have not been "grey'd out". You dont see them remove damage because people keep breaking the bench i like to sit on.. And yet they made some instances where the furniture doesn't break. Preferential treatment favoring everyone but telepathy is commonplace. I may hold a personal grudge against these spoiler players for the lifetime of the game for the death of my thematic build. However those new players who repeat the drole "Confuses in PvP were removed because they are overpowered", you are wrong.
Collective Will - Players originally coupled the ego debuff of psi-lash with the debuff from collective will to do adequate damage. This meant 5K hits from incoming Wills. At the time this was considered outrageous, so the entire power was Nerfed.. including no longer giving extra Wills for using confuses <-- Yeah those still existed. PvP nerf that by today's standards wouldn't even be considered Good damage.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE: BLOOD MOON
The introduction of Celestial powers is an unintended nerf to telepathy but was felt by telepaths far and wide. The healing potential done by Celestial powers far outweighed what had once been only available to telepaths and sorcerers (many players of which were a mixture of both). Around this time the "Cancels on incoming damage" portion of Empathic Healing and Arcane Vitality were removed, but still the raw outgoing heals of Celestial far outshined what telepathy or sorcery could offer. The introduction of Stronghold's PvP Map did however give a tiny glimmer of hope into me using confuses again.. however by this time Supernatural Power lost it's ability to perform mass confuses and I was nerfed by association.
Mind Link - was created. All of the tier 4 powers were released without PTS testing. It became immediate and abundantly clear that this power sucked major balls. Telepathy toons never really wanted high EGO in the first Place and both telepathy and Telekinesis were considered squshy.. this power became known as "Kamikaze" in all notable telepathy circles.. This was ESPECIALLY disheartening because of the PAIN a player had to go through to get 10 telepathy/tk powers to use the passive in the first place. It was a slap in the face and the devs didn't care.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE: FREE 2 PLAY
Aye. I just looked back at the patch notes. The first of the "Kitchen Sink" passes did alot to try to homogenize freeform building. This unfortunately also lead to the VERY short sighted "Holds are too strong in PvP" conversation.
As someone who exclusively used holds in PvP I am horrified at the develepoer response. To refresh memory: UNFORTUNATELY the "Str breaks tangible and Ego breaks intangible holds" was never implimented. Instead of actually implimenting it they decided to go with a completely NEW hold system in which after being held 3 times (by any hold) you are immune to holding. This was sold to players as a "simpler less complicated version" when in actuality it is MANY more nuances than the original version. First: Holds being "complicated to calculate?" is bunk. There is a HUGE server running the calculations for you.. it's not like you're sitting by an abacus counting the hold v hold resistance on each application. The UI team dropped the ball by never (and still not) showing the hold strength of a hold in the powers description. Everything is "less complicated" when the values are shown to the consumer (*cough Grab Bags).
The second argument was "If someone uses Ego Storm and I break free I'm Held again. As is implimented now, there should have been a short immunity to holds after breaking free the first time. This whole idea was overkill and led to Melee becoming even weaker and less desireable in PvP than before. This is also the first and only time developers gutted an entire system in the name of PvP (the result being PvP getting more imbalanced than before). I believed then (and still do now) that malevolent manifestation should be a toggle, not a summon.
Ego Sleep - Was the most noticably affected by this new Crowd Control rule. Now when teaming, Ego Sleep became a liability to use because damaging the target would get them steps closer to immunity.
Ego Blast - This nerf too came because of the change in ithe hold system. Stuns at 100ft did nothing but provide enemies a free stack of hold resistance. However the devs failed to notice that telepathy HAD no other 100ft crowd control powers. Archery became the only 100ft stun and telepathy lost it's only defense from long ranged attackers in PvP.
Ego Placate - I really don't now and never did understand this nerf. The incoming damage of enemies could be stacked up to 13 stacks and had to be maintained (using nothing but ego placate) to do so. This didn't even cut incoming damage in half in final math.. I don't understand AT ALL why it was nerfed.. it was the only thing telepaths had for means of damage mitigation. I dont think anyone complained about it.. it was just egregious
Ego Storm - Became stationary.. making the power unusable in PvP. Don't know what to say about this other than.. WTF. I thought at the time it would come with a pairing nerf of Malevolent Manifestation, turning MM into a toggle, mobile form of Ego Storm. I should have learned THEN not to trust the intent of Cryptic Developers. Because I dont want it forgotten I will post it twice. This was the beginning of "Incapacitates" in the form of "Maintained Paralyzes" .. instead of just remaining a "Hold Over Time" it got it's own mechanic.. This was the beginning of the end.. and for what? So they could KEEP this broken **** hold system.
Summon Nightmare - Somewhere around this time it lost the ability to survive after its target died. And since this set takes SO much setup that advantage was extremely valuable. Instead, now when teaming no one wants to see a Summon Nightmare because it'll just die off.. and it takes HELLA long just to cast it. I dont know why they took that either.. Mostly because petmaster builds were out of control. But what was "TOO MUCH" then is commonplace now. Even still being a telepathy petmaster was hard with them surviving a full 60 seconds.
Psychic Vortex - Beyond the fact that this power has always been very weak for a Tier 2 power, the advantage became bugged. No longer stunning targets it began giving away free hold resistance stacks. Also the mapping never worked like a normal pet would so instead of fixing the issue they made the power stationary.. again killing it's very small amount of useful application, Specifically in PvP. I'd have to say indolence was the largest factor in this decision.
Mindful Reinforcement - It really lost its tier 3 status after Protection field could be cast without cooldowns. It was an indirect nerf, and one I actually agree with, but the power should be moved down to tier two.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE: ON ALERT (The final injustice)
Crowd Controls Darkest hour. Incapacitates were formed. Ego choke and other powers became stationary (and thus useless in PvP). There is a small break of Hold immunity after breaking free of any hold, yet a player can still build hold resistance stacks. PvE Holds do not provide players the same hold resistance stacks as in PvP. There is a gear review and Crowd Control is COMPLETELY ignored in it. CC Resist gear becomes useless (also loses its knock resistance because Ame didn't consider it Crowd Control?... yeah...). JayBezz goes insane.. quits game for over 30 days to cool off, still raging on the forums. Devs remain conspicuously quiet on the issue of Crowd Control even tho they hinted at doing a Crowd Control review for On Alert in no less than 3 postings.
Manipulator - is born. A Toggle form that allows an increase of crowd control, that is still useless in both PvE and PvP teaming. The previous "review of crowd control" feels closer than ever yet they give this dry meatless bone to telepaths whom they must consider no better than dogs. The Toggle does not function on half of the crowd control powers and takes much longer to ramp up. A developer promises that the power will now work when players attempt to use crowd control powers (incapacitates... ) and yet it still does not function with many crowd control powers.
The end of this walk down Telepathy Lane is bleak enough when subjected to the ghettos of its own framework.. however while all of these immense and deep resented Nerfs happened, seemingly EVERY other powerset got stronger, learned to live longer, to fight harder.
Telepathy sits now in a corner wearing what can only be described as a Dunce cap. Players (the ones that haven't left champions online) have long awaited its vengeful, Carrie-like comeuppance. But this will not come to pass.. It has been 9 months since "Telepathy: a History of Nerf" and all that telepathy has seen.. is more neglect and deeper Nerfs. One player has continued playing .. trying to speak as a semi-champion for telepathy. But even champions do fatigue (unless they're on Champions Online where they can tank indefinitely). The once proud JayBezz is gone. "Gamehobo" a weak semblance of what once was. Increase in player knowledge had lead to further outcry but the malevolent developers continue to quash cries for rebellion via the release of outdate, pointless alerts and rehashed, unimaginative costumes and yes.. more buffs and new powers to other existing frameworks. And on the tombstone where the was once a proud framework is now an epitaph reading:
"Here lies telepathy. The red-headed firebird will rise again" ((God I hate you Chris Claremont)).
Post edited by gamehobo on
0
Comments
Ah yes.. I thought you'd never ask:
I do have one suggestion for passive.. open for criticism.
New Power: "Control" is a Passive for the Telepathy Framework for Support or Hybrid Role
Increased Ego Damage
Pet (all summons) Damage Penetration
Grants up to 3 stacks of "Audacity"
Increased CC Strength
Explaination of Equality:
I did a side by side cost/benefit analysis based on 1) A sentinel passive that is not an aura aka Seraphim and 2) Instead of the full genus of "paranormal damage" limiting it to one damage type (Ego) put it on par with Quarry. So in the "Powers table" of which passives are ok and which are OP this passive cannot be considered OP.
The Ego Damage buff is be equal about to what Quarry gives to physical damage, however it does not come with a secondary "buff to all damage". Instead of a buff to all damage, that buff goes to Pet Penetration (around 50% rank 3). Then exactly like Seraphim has the boost to Heal Strength, this passive would have a boost to Hold Strength (i see 51% heals which comparable to +84 Hold Strength using math from Sentinel's Broach Item - however the math for hold strength is wonky manipulator does not buff hold strength percent after base the same way heals do.. lets hope for a fix).
Power FX in my perfect world would look the same as "Sonic Device" that is constant only in combat.
When does this hit the box office?
Pretty.Pixie
Concentration is a general ranged damage buff. It doesnt matter which framework its in if it is designed to provide all ranged combatants with a damage buff and energy gain without a graphic effect inappropriate tot he set's general concept.
With a grand total of five powers, all thematically appropriate for a mentalist:
Ego Form
Ego Blast (with Mind Opener)
Ego Sprites
Telepathic Reverberation
Concentration
Its fairly easy to generate as much as 4k DPS. This is with not a single power higher than Tier 1.
The advantage on Ego Blast, despite how it is described in the tooltip, provides a separate damage proc that is affected independently of Ego Blast's base damage by your various damage buffs. Testing at level 40 I see non crit damage ticks from Ego Blast and Mind Opener of between 650 and 750 each. Thats approximately 1400 non crit damage per half second, or 2800 non crit damage per second. Add in two 125 non crit damage procs from Ego Sprites and the build is up to 3050 DPS.
Now factor in a 50% crit rate and 100% severity (both very easily attained at level 40 with R5 mods) for a grand total of 4,575 DPS. You lose some DPS due to the fact that your damage ticks will not be at exactly .5 seconds, and reapplying Ego Sprites at the appropriate intervals, but your overall DPS will be in the ballpark of 4k+.
You will be hard pressed to generate 4k+ DPS with Munitions using only T1 powers. Not a given even with T3 powers. You will find it difficult if not impossible to generate 4k DPS with Archery or Ice, or other sets. And yet a telepath can do it with his T1's and a solid set of DPS stats/specs/gear.
The reason I bring this all up is that it is very possible to be a solid addition to your team, be effective, and generally kick serious tail with Telepathy. You just have to choose to do so. It may not be awesome in the way you are looking for your character to be awesome....but its your choice to either play a set to its strength or not. Crowd Control is not important in CO, so build your telepath to fry your target's brain instead.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
That's Jaybezz for you. He was claiming he was going to quit and take his guild with him only a few months ago while On Alert was on test actually. His name might have changed but his over dramatization is still intact.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I did quit. It's in there.. just go read it again.. let it sink into your subconscious
I respectfully (with tint of disdain) disagree,
Designed for telepathy..? Then why do i have to pick 3 powers just to go open it? That's fail by tier gating design (Manipulator.. you're next).
Also, there are only 3 direct damage powers in this set: Ego blast, Ego Sprites and (the crappy version of) Ego Storm. Who in their right mind would pick a passive that is going to ignore half of the powers of that set? Not at all designed for telepathy. It's designed for Ranged TK.
Having attempted hundreds of times to make the build you describe work i know that it doesn't stand up on its own.. much less compared to its counterparts (Fire.. maybe but definately not Force, Munitions, Archery, Electricity, Ice, Wind or even Earth). Now if you want to argue that TK powers are theme.. fine, but that's not this thread.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yes please.. lets derail my poeticism for your personal accusation of what I said and did. I said "If Incapacitates hit live in their current form and THIS is your version of "a crowd control pass" to simply kill it off I will quit the game.
I subsequently did quit the game.
Then in the Aura's pass they added Manipulator Aura at which point I came back to the game. As a silver freeform player (had to wait forever for my freaking 6 month sub to end). And have since refused to give monetary compensation to PWE until they give me player satisfaction.
But by all means.. call me a liar and hypocrite for doing precisely as I say I will do. And be a **** about it while you're at it. Then when you're done.. you could go sit on a ******* and ********* yourself.
"hmm such prose and composition.. yes.. I agree. quite the literary read"
No, you're producing double standards and didn't write anything poetic. In fact even with manipulator you kept claiming you would quit. So no, there is nothing being derailed about your typical personal attacks.
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Yeah. My "double standards" are completely what made telepathy into the lackluster, nobody plays it, sucks in PvE and PvP set it is.
I dont have to defend myself to you dude. My money, my life. Go get some of both.
I have no intention of arguing that TK powers are theme, but I stand by my position that powers whose description specifically state that they are intended to benefit telepathy as well as TK are.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
But I however was left dis-satisfied with the damage. Switching to Avenger role it became clear that TK was the only real choice because of its 100ft range powers, anything closer would have too much threat and the passive itself provides no useful mitigation.
Going out of set for mitigation was reason enough for me to doubt its performance with telepathy... add that to the fact that you still need the energy builder (staying at 100ft doesn't proc the telepathic reverb). You need to move INTO 60ft to shoot the sprites, and the (now stationary) Ego Storm very often did not have the range to hit the player 27 ft away still shooting at me while I stand there defenseless trying my best to get them to move forward into the AoE.
The Mindful reinforcement, while much more cost effective, provided very little in the way of mitigation and its need for constant refreshment made the entire process of killing someone worse than if I'd stayed in support role, Held them and finished them off.
The telepathy tree is full of summons and holds. The fact that the T0 is a too ft blast attack is its only saving grace.. and it's damage is pittance compared to even its TK counterparts.
If this set is to have a purpose and raison d'etre it is no going to be as a DPS set. It is simply outmatched by other DPS.. Same with heals. Can you fit a square peg into a slightly larger round hole? Yes. But there's alot of empty space there to be filled. For the same lack of mitigation Electricity has plenty of options for DPS.. while telepathy has 1.
Again I am not here to criticize your playstyle, but it left too much to be desired for my playstyle. But I thank you sincerely for your opinion. <-- not sarcasm.
I am specifically speaking about the History of Champions Online powers updates and how telepathy has been consistently hurt by them. Perhaps because I (since before this game was to full beta stage) looked forward to playing a successful telepath. I have had some version or another or a telepath build since inception. Every one of these Nerfs felt like a personal assault on my expendable income. While other players had severe alt-itus, I was finding new ways to make telepathy work. And every-time I was satisfied (Slick RIP) There was a new powers pass to make the work I just put into a functional telepath irrelevant. While you have found one build that works for you.. I have found so many well thought out, planned, inter-framework even versions that no matter how close to functional they were on paper, failed in implementation. Not because of my lack of understanding of game mechanics. The mechanics are STACKED against the player.
Now your solution was to divorce crowd control, and pets from telepathy. The same logic came from the devs as they tried to turn telepathy into a new word for Telekinesis (why not.. they do the same damage type now.. *sigh*). But just because Ego Blast is a blast T0 and TK assault is a Maintained T0 with the same range does not make them equal. Just the AoE on TK assault alone makes it better. Not to mention it gets HIGHER damage and doesn't have to be "tap spammed".
I am not here saying "telekinesis is a good set" I believe ranged telekinesis is a good set. But that is not telepathy. By removing the Crowd Control from Ego Blast, they made it a telekinetic power to be frank. You and the developers somehow see this is good for telepathy and I simply dont share that point of view. That is good for telekinesis.
Whenever I'm building a character the single most defining factor to how I view them (this is me and i dont expect others to share in my vision) is their passive. For many other players too, but I will speak for me, not them. Without a passive people will continue to try to put telepathy powers in other powersets.. and while it "functions" it is always a lesser option than it's counterpart.
My disdain is not for your response, Ashen. The response is as valid an opinion as the next.. but the argument that Telepathy is DPS is exactly what keeps it in its **** position its in.. because it's NOT DPS.. and people who want to use telepathy powers are not doing so FOR the DPS. It's for the Crowd Control and the Summons. My disdain is for this angular line of thought that says Telepathy should focus on Damage/Self Healing and should abandon what made it special, different and great.. Crowd Control and Psuedo pets.
- -
To your Archery Argument.. I just switched Kontrol to an Overseer build (ranged damage using holds). With high INT All I needed was Strafe, Quarry, Evasive Maneuvers and Storm of arrows and I PvP'd with some veteran builds. This was due to my over 700 INT and Penetration Granted by INT specialization, however.. that is many less powers than you described, and does much better performance in terms of damage.. but also came with damage mitigation, stat increases and more.. These you cannot get in telepathy tree nor the build you described.
I know they said that G Crush has some ideas with the set but who knows when those'll be implemented, and the set deserves, NEEDS, a very serious review.
Thanks for this thread, Jay.
Shows how much Telepathy users have suffered and, even though it's the most underperforming set, the devs haven't even tried to improve it...yet.
I never really cared about Telepathy much, in any case. I've got a pal who's first AT was the Mind, and I've got fond memories of us leveling together (Soldier and Mind working together is a dangerous thing indeed.)
I'd like to see Telepathy become effective again, but let's avoid making Ego Storm pre-On Alert strong. At least on players. I'd be happy to let you hold a crowd of Master Villains for eternity.
Oh, wait! Since you're running silver, you would be stuck with that anyway.
Unfortunately, I don't remember which pass changed this. It might have been as early as launch or slightly before.
As to CC, yeah this mechanic has not been well-thought-out going back to launch. The current state of affairs is arguably worse than it ever was.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
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T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Hmm I didn't know that.. i always used the head animation. But one FX issue that I HATED with a passion was telepathy animations turning from floating dots into stupid flames (Im looking at you Empathic Healing). I dont know WHY they did this.. it works well for fire players who need a heal.. but seriously.. fire sucks.
I do entirely agree. But while people keep SAYING "I hate ego storm" what they really mean is "I hate Malevolent Manifestation". I too hate how exploitable Manevolent Manifestation is.. I think it should be scrubbed in its current form. Telepath DPS users don't want to turn their Damage into a summon in the first place.
While I share your desire for fair and adequate PvP, I also advocate for a "When released from any hold players recieve instant hold immunity" model. One Compoundable hold is much more desired than 3 non-compoundable holds.. for both the CC player and for the CC receiver.
This fundamental change is why "Champions Online: Free to Play" really pissed me off. When teaming their system would not differentiate a might player using his lunge from my character using very powerful holds on a target.
It became clear that developers wanted to completely remove crowd control from PvP and make it a DPS race or a Tank wait.. Crowd Control however doesn't exist for crowd controllers sake alone, it's also the equalizer for range vs melee in PvP. When crowd control was removed it became MUCH easier to kite melee and the birth of the Aura of Enrage era was born. To me this was the death-nail to PvP.
These along with the new passive i suggest will instantly revitalize telepathy's potential.
To Devil's Advocates:
Would it be a bad thing for Telepathy to be reviewed?
I suppose the only question for that would be this;
Would the powers team have their time better spent on something else?
Me I think telepathy could use some love, a few new powers and all. It seems all the new stuff have been on the TK side of Mentalist.
The trouble might be finding good fun powers that make being a 'controller' possible in PvE and not having the needs of PvP bork them.
I know some of you care about the PvP part, I don't apart from the abstract. I'll leave the pvP worries to you lot.
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Telepathy has been nerfed many times.
Telepathy right now is not what that Gamehobo guy wants it to be, but is valid if you build it right.
Pure telepath isn't possible, so it looks like telepathy is "designed" to be mixed with other frameworks.
Ow, and what is most important is that Gamehobo(however he was called before) likes attention.
Am I right?
Seconded so much. I swear if any other powerset in game received a telepathy grade nerf, it would be rendered unusable and the player base would explode with rage.
The fact that despite all these nerfs and nerf bombs which hit this powerset they still released an AT which does the worst healing out of all the support AT's. It is SEVERELY outclassed by Radiant AT and celestial powers in general are power healing. They also have much better CC than telepathy in most instances which can work in a team situation, this then leaves no place for telepaths to cover in a team, support is covered by celestial powers and socery passives.
It is a shame that my favorite concept power has been obliterated and just is a list of broken and underperforming pink powers, really upsets me. The only thing telepathy has going for it now is Mindful Reinforcement, which as earlier pointed out in the original OP is not really a tier 3 power...as it does less than Protection Field, which has a longer duration and higher shielding power. Granted this is due to healing component with MR but when a shield of about 4k is put up for 8 secs, in combat it goes down SO fast it's insane and you'd be lucky if you get 1hp's worth of healing from it.
Pure anything else is possible. You can be pure Might, Celestial, Magician, Archer, Munitions etc each with its own passive (Targetting comp as munitions comes under tech tree).
Why not Pure Telepaths? It is better to try to solo content as a telepath rather than have a team of telepaths. A team of them should be formidable. NOTE I didnt say that they should be OP, but they need to have a degree of control which reflects that powerset. Right now The Telepathy Powerset and Mind AT are just a bunch of amateur telepaths running around, which has no place in the fast paced action which happens in game.
I dont want telepathy turned into a DPS version of TK. But the damage needs to be higher than what it is, Crowd Control needs to WORK again.
I think that if this powerset could have a few more attacks (using Ego Blast pose xP) and it's crowd control was brought back up to good standard and it was buffed it would be on par with other powersets. Telepathy should be Damage/CC/Heals, the main aspect should really be control however as that is what telepaths do, having them on your team should effectively turn the tables in a fight, giving your team a great advantage. Right now if anything they are a hinderance to team progression, as their damage isn't good, control capabilities can be cast but can be instantly broken by other team members and their heals when cast can be outmatched by celestial healing.
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Telepathy is rubbish compared to every other single powerset. Fact. It is the only powerset collectively to recieve that many nerfs and not to have any passive, Active Defensive or Offensive OR Block.
And any build is valid. As the powers are there to be chosen. If you meant VIABLE, then sort of, it can be viable for solo play if you want to take a million years to drag yourself through a lair. Compared to other builds telepath builds arent that useful.
Why telepathy is "designed" to be mixed with other sets I dont know why it's like that. There are plenty examples of telepaths using pure telepathy in comics such as Professor X and Emma Frost etc. and they remain powerful and formidable. Just as any other powerset can be an effective stand alone set but Telepathy can't is a bit silly really.
I'd like to see a pure telepath. I've tried it but in order to get the concept I ended up with only 3 telepathic powers and the rest were TK or force. The closest I have come to a pure Telepath is Mind AT with a mystic aura and a telekinetic hold >_>. And it plays like an amateur Telepath, low damage, low control, low heals, low everything.
Gamehobo is just drawing to attention the failure that is telepathy. If you have an issue with his style of pointing this out then it would be best not to comment at all. It needs a review and plenty of buffs.
He told me WAY before he posted this he was working on this, as an avid telepathy fan and lover of all things telepathic, I am backing him.
So to answer your last question, no you need to read it again if that is all you got from the OP.
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These ideas for telepathy are GREAT!
They would put telepathy on par with other good powersets again!
These powers would really work extremely well with the powerset,AT,and even concept wise,I mean,just look at the powerful telepaths in comics and movies who can make their enemies tremble in fear,mentally assault them,etc.Now we can do that kind of stuff,I wondr why this was never implemented in the first place,its a great idea!
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(1) This is because different people have different expectations; some people want to be able to maximize DPS; Ashen in particular has always had an interest in maximizing powers that under-perform in comparison to the "best" damage dealing powers. For a long time, his main was an archer, for instance. Yes, you can DPS with telepathy, but no one whose intent is to optimize DPS will think, "Hey, I should use telepathy powers cause they're the best." Others want the set to be what the powers in the set seem to indicate the set was designed to do.
(2) The game was launched with free-form only. All sets were intended to be mixed freely. Multiple sets lacked a passive and/or a block enhancer. Since, as the result of power reviews, several sets have been granted either a passive or a block. Telepathy's 'review" during FFA gave it neither.
(3) You may not agree with Gamehobo, but this was uncalled for.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
To both you and that Theravenforce. I understand that both of you actually do want telepathy to be "fixed". I personally don't see anything wrong with it. I mean, I can't see any difference between telekinesis and telepathy. For me those 2 are actually 1 framework, but for some weird reason under 2 different names. I think devs just need to move all powers from one framework to another and then remove empty one. Allso, lets see things how they are. With how this game works, "controller" would never work. Why? Answer is simple. When most of the enemies in the game can be killed in under 2 seconds there is no point in controlling something. And even if controll powers were working on super villains or even legendary villains, still, making character to be specialized on killing just super/legendary enemies... I doubt there will be more then... um... 10, 15 of you who would want it? Because even in groups it's much better to have someone who can heal allies or kill enemies fast, then someone who can put half of the enemies to sleep. That's just the way this game works.
I never tried to offend Gamehobo, it's just everytime someone creates thread like "oh no! this power is to op! devs nerf it!" or "oh no! this power is to weak! devs buff it!" I see only 2 options why someone would do something like that. Option one: they care, but they are to dumb to understand that if they want something from devs they need to ask for it in specifically for that reason created part of forums or send a message directly to them, not create a thread in "General Gameplay" or "Combat and Powers". Option two: maybe they care, maybe not, but they perfectly know about what I wrote in "option one", but that is not what they are looking for. Op or too weak power is simply a reason for them to be noticed and receive replies like "gj noticing that, keep it up" or "I agree with you!", because they simply want someone to agree with them and tell them that they are right. Why I think that? Simple, have you ever asked yourself, what now? Now that he told us about that, what will we do now? What can we do now? Nothing, but tell him that we agree/disagree with him. So what is the point of even creating this thread? If he wants devs to change something, he first needs to make sure that they will see this thread. And I personally doubt that any of them ever reads threads in "Combat and Powers" part of forum. Same for "The Hero Games".
No offence to anyone, but I really see no point behind this thread right now, but his own frustration that he spits at us while waiting for us to hug him and whisper gently "it's all going to be alright".
Wow. I can see that you have no concept of how change comes about. On the flip side, if you don't want to read peoples' opinions in a thread, then don't. Instead, you read the thread (apparently) and then try to play amateur psychologist?
Oh, and btw, Combat & Powers is the sub-forum for discussing things like, oh, idk, powers.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
So, when someone disagrees with someone else and explains his/her opinion, it's a bad thing?
But when someone replies on that opinion with "I can see that you have no concept of how change comes about" without explaining how exactly change comes about and adds a funny insult at the end, is a good thing?
Can you please explain to me how exactly?
The reason for this thread, coupled "A History of Nerf" is to educate many of the newcomers to the game on what exactly happened to telepathy to get it to the point its at now. People have a very short attention span and memory. And before any real change there must be knowledge. If you hate gaining knowledge and learning from history then you and I will likely not get along.
If your opinion differs from mine, by all means do provide discourse. However, I will defend my opinion, and I know what I'm talking about. I still have a guide book from when the game was released. I remember EVERY nerf because it affected me likely more than the rest of you. But I'd like to think I represent a constituency of more players than myself.. I'm just the only one who didn't quit (permanently).
- -
It is clear to most people that telepathy is a crowd control set, even now. Doll1989: when you say "Telepathy is telekinesis" this is one of the biggest falsehoods facing me. In the HISTORY of the framework it has ALWAYS been a support set. I must choose 3 telepathy powers to open tier 2 of telepathy.. and to do this I am not allowed to choose a passive, a toggle form, or a block. The tier gating system is reason enough for a review. I advocated in the Telekinesis review that they split up Mentalist into THREE sets. Telepathy (support CC powers), Ranged Telekinesis, and Melee Telekinesis (hopefully melee DPS and also Tank later on).
Alot of you are assuming ranged telekinesis = telepathy. I say ranged telekinesis =/= telepathy. Telepathy has ALWAYS been a support set.. this you will not be able to do in a DPS role.
What was NOT posted in this thread (because I've made a separate thread) is all of the bugs, design issues etc that affect only Crowd Control powers as a whole.
- -
A final request.. to those who keep saying "They should kill crowd control completely because what's the point of holding anyone because they can be killed in 2 seconds".. no. You are basically trying to invalidate my choice of how I play the game. This is the same as me saying "Please eliminate all Melee in Pvp because range is just better"..
This game is based on the idea of choice for its players. If you think "people who'd choose to play crowd controllers are idiots"; FINE I think your opinion is valid and has truth to it. Have your opinion, but taking it upon yourselves to advocate them not supporting or worse, not HAVING that choice is just selfish and shortsighted.
WOW really? You cant see ANY difference between TK and telepathy? wow, please just don't comment on this thread if you cannot see an obvious difference between two totally different powersets.
Granted they both fall under The Mentalist Power Pool. One does serious damage and the other tries its best to attempt to crowd control and support.
You also fail to realise that it's not only His own frustration But a number of players frustration as well which is why there are some people such as myself who have found it and agree with him like we have in the past. Naysayers like you aren't helping to further the knowledge which this thread is trying to get across. Generally if you dont see the point in something you just move along.
Any concept you try to push out on this game can work; Angry military Fairy with dual guns and celestial healing can be done.
Why would Cryptic invent control powers if it cannot be played in how their game works? To lol at people who try? I doubt it. Controller concepts used to work very well, before ON Alert nerf.
To make it work again they need to review and buff relevant areas and powersets such as TELEPATHY (which is NOT telekinesis) to make it a decent and viable concept.
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"You must use some strategy to do something with it, it was one of the best and most advanced powerset in game because you needed some strategy to defeat it not just press buttons like ape. It was basically only power set that works like that, i never saw Telepathy with its full potential, but i remember when stuff like Ego Storm to actually worked.Telepathy was, and should be supportive/hold etc. power set, it was never made for Dps or tanking, so i recomend making it as effective as it was before "On Alert", That would be a nice start at least for the holds system.Oh and by the way doll1989 I'm not sure if you are new to this game or just don't understand it at all, but talk about something you actually know about, thanks. @Kostlivec."
He saw this post and asked me to post his comment
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What if telepathy abilities, if used on top of another telepathy ability, only applied a lesser degree of hold resistance, so someone who focuses on telepathy mezzes could utilize them a bit more?
I also think that telepathy powers should deal more damage to enemies affected by other telepathy abilities (somewhat like controller 'containment' in CoX).
Lastly, telepathy should get a passive or other ability that perhaps provides debilatative effects on enemies when you use mezzes on them.
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Of course there is no difference - the set is modeled after Jean Grey! Duh!
:eek: Wow, Jean Grey's telepathy has not been captured very well then..even an amateur telepath could do better than the current telepathy powerset...
XD
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Nice, I'd like it if your aura allowed for your enemies to be stunned if they tried to attack you (every rank below Super Villain)
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Two posts before, and you don't consider this an insult to the entire lot of people advocating Telepathy in this thread? How is calling people dumb or 'just looking for attention' constructive at all?
Pointless circular argument. Some 'opinions' are more offensive than others, depending how they're communicated. 'Respectfully disagree' and your method are two different things. And when you start dishing it out you should expect to take it.
It's a good thing because they condensed down the whole point of the thread that you can't see for some reason. No one would be doing this if it wasn't in the interest of creating a creative drive to see Telepathy boosted. Posting it in another location or directly to the devs is just another vehicle. Some will see it here and not there. Hence the thread.
I very clearly state the reason I made this forum thread in the first portion of the post - even if you didn't make it to the middle.
Also many of the points of their argument are not only mentioned but highlighted in the post.
- -
No shade. But if you ain't read it.. why try to give a synopsis?
OK, so
is insulting, but
isn't? I could say that my comments about your post are my opinions. Would that have made my comments alright with you?
OK. Change comes about by people agitating for change and sticking to their guns; exactly what the OP is doing, and for which you are throwing insults.
Funny insult at the end? Did you mean the comment about Combat & Powers? No offense intended, but you did say:
Come to think of it, there's another insult in there: "too dumb to understand" that posting an issue with powers in the Combat and Powers Forum is wrong.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
As was pointed out to you before, Ego Form is every bit as much in the Mentalism tree with Telepathy powers as Targeting Computer is in the tech tree with Munitions.
If your standard for whether or not a set has a passive is exemplified by Munitions having access to Targeting Computer, then why do you claim that Telepathy does not have a passive.
Double standards such as that make your position weaker, not stronger.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Well my position aint changed.
The tier gating system does not allow me to choose any of these "other" telepathy powers people keep talking about. Not to mention that NONE of these passives work in Support role.. thus killing off the Crowd Control component in the first place.
Why take a offensive passive to do crowd control? You're cutting yourself off at the knees. and THAT is why Ego Form is NOT a telepathy passive.
The individual I quoted expressed that TC was a munitions passive because it is in the tech tree.
My response has nothing to do with your position, and everything to do with double standards. If one uses, "its in the same general tree," as justification for considering a passive part of a specific set, then claiming that telepathy doesnt have a passive is using a double standard.
Personally I think that Crown Control should be limited. If I am in a group, as happened on many occasions in the past, where one member of the party turns groups of foes into targeting dummies I either stopped attacking until the hold wore off, or pulled different foes in so that I could participate in a fight rather than the execution of helpless targets.
CC that reduces the effectiveness of foes, slows them, interrupts them, causes them damage when they attack, gives them a chance to miss with attacks, reduces their damage output, etc are potentially excellent additions to a game. CC that creates a situation where players might as well have stayed in the Power House shooting at targeting dummies are not (IMO of course).
The defining element of a telepath is not the ability to paralyze foes....its the ability to read minds.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
So, basicly, you trying to make people understand somethnig, but if people don't understand it, you want them to just be quiet and move on?... First rule of educating, patience. Want people to know something/agree with your opinion, mind to explain it if they don't understand or agree.
To Gamehobo, so, point of this thread is not to actually change telepathy, but to make people see that it is broken? Just that? Nothing else? Only thing I can say to that is "so much smoke, but where's fire?".
And I don't see difference in telekinesis and telepathy just because of my understanding of telepathy in "real" life. Basicly, for me someone who can smash something with his thoughts or controll someone with the strength of his mind is telepath. I understand that the first one is what telekinesis does, while last one is for telepathy. But I don't see difference conceptually here, that's why I think those 2 need to be melted into 1. That allso will fix that "I need 2 powers from telepathy to unlock 2nd tier" thing.
Ok, fine, I stated my opinion, you stated yours. They are different and I doubt any of us will change theirs. So just let it be that way. I'll just move on. Still, in short, to all of you who wants me gone. I don't want telepathy to be fixed/reviewed, I think it needs to be melted with telekinesis. And yes, I do think that holds before changes where op in PvP and useless in PvE, so it's to bad they didn't just remove them. That's it. So ask yourself, why your desire is better then mine?
If you had taken this approach ^^^ rather than the one you did, I would not have taken issue with you. I was not in any way trying to silence you; rather, I was pointing out that your statements could be seen as derogatory. Your words led me to think you were trying to silence the OP, thus my comment about your not having to read the thread if its contents bothered you that much.
So, no, I don't want you gone. And no, your desire is as valid as the OP's.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
As pointed out by another post previous to this, I wouldnt have got all puffed up if you hadn't have taken your first approach to this thread. I did not mean to imply that you desire to not see the difference between Telepathy and TK and that they should be left alone or just merged together is of less worth than mine which is to buff this powerset to a good standard.
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I am @RavenForce in game
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This might have been pointed out to you already but, Ego Form really is not made for telepathy, or telepaths in general. It is meant for Telekinetic damage as it uses offensive/hybrid roles, not support which is the main mechanic of telepaths in this game. The frame work it comes from is TK, and the power family is Mentalist but, only ranged TK users or offensive psychic builds would use such a passive.
If you look at Telepathy, it is not really meant for damage, as it's damaging abilities are quite low, since this is the case you'd expect for something to make up for this, namely crowd control and support. As clearly stated in the OP, Celestial outclasses it in healing potential. And now that the Crowd Control system is well, not very viable in it's current state this power set really is limited to 3-5 damaging abilities, some of which require you to be damaged, or have the target under a control effect.
The support/CC function of telepathy in this game cannot be captured by using a Ranged TK passive as it does not work in support role. So I think this has improved my position by providing a short explaination.
My Characters on PRIMUS
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I am @RavenForce in game
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You say that Crowd Control should be limited, I think it is fair to say that if was limited any more, it would be all but non existant.
Rendering mobs which have been accidentally pulled toward a group, immobile and helpless can indeed save time and HP.
The defining element of a telepath is control. They are always in control. Not just helplessly sitting in the corner reading everyones mind during a fight, in the comics and cartoons, the bad guys most of the time went for the telepath first, because they were a high threat. Not because they shouted to the rest of the team what the bad guy was thinking.
Besides even if you thought it was just limited to reading minds, what power in CO can even come close to that both concept wise and telepathy wise? Apart from Masterful Dodge, as being able to predict their movements and attacks, I can't see much else happening there.
I think you were thinking of just amateur Telepaths when you said that, not even Professor X who was fairly passive with the use of his telepathy, just read minds, even in the films....
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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While i disagree with your PoV I can see where you can get to that point. I actually LOVE that very fact that I, one of the weakest members on my team, can (through HIGH costs to other playstyles) turn entire crowds of 20+ enemies into "targeting dummies". But that's the satisfaction i get from playing a crowd controller.
I think my satisfaction is just as merited as someone who gets satisfaction from killing an entire mob of 20 persons. I love that on interaction based missions I am a great procurer. I am not asking that you nor others learn to love playing a telepath. Or even to lear to love teaming with one.. I personally hate knockback builds.. and generally try to stay away from teaming with them. BUT I still think their playstyle should stay supported.
I dont hate on anyone's hustle.. but players (and especially devs) hate on mine. While i still advocate the massive nerfing of everything doing over 15K damage and everything with over 15K HP's mitigation.. I dont go out and say all DPS or Tanking is evil and should be removed from the game.
I agree with the notion that Telepathy should have a support-oriented passive that grants bonuses to crowd control and healing. I think that it should also give Ego damage a substantial boost to defense penetration. You're attacking their mind, not their body.
Something that I like about the PnP game is that Ego Blast and other Ego based attacks do less base damage than physical attacks, but completely ignore all physical and energy defenses. If the target does not have specific Ego based defenses he takes full damage from any Ego based attack.
The net result was that most targets took about as much damage from an Ego Blast as he would from a physical or energy attack, but the really tough defensively built characters that might shrug off most normal attacks were still vulnerable to special damage such as Ego blast and other mental attacks. The diversity is very nice.
Understood, but tanks and DPSers are not designed to prevent other paying customers from being able to play the game. They may be designed to try preventing you from defeating them, but not to prevent you from playing in the way that a character dedicated to taking control of your character away from you is. If someone wants the ability to deprive others of the ability to play the game they should be willing to pay those others' sub fees in my opinion. I see a huge difference between, "I want to play with and against you in this cooperative and competitive game," and, "I want the option to take your ability to play the game away from you."
In PvE a Tank or DPSer on my team does not prevent me from fighting bad guys whereas a controller (if the system were actually designed to support a controller play style) is specifically designed to prevent me from being able to participate in a fight. Shooting people who are shooting back is a fight. Shooting people who are paralyzed, or in some other way disarmed and helpless is an execution.
Side note: I am not particularly fond of threat based tanking. I find the idea of bad guys forced to attack the least dangerous, and toughest, members of your team due to some artificial taunt mechanic to be silly and annoying. One of the things I like about CO is that, with the exception of some truly astounding min/maxed tanks, aggro is much more fluid.
Ultimately I do want CC to have a better place in CO. I want those who like playing such to have some decent options. The problem is that the content of the game lacks sufficient difficulty for CC (AoE especially) to do any less than render a combat not worth playing.
If we were in a situation where the controller was, "I'll hold off the adds coming in from
the left while you guys take out the center," it would be very cool. Truly awesome in fact. God I would love that. But nothing in the game plays that way, nor would it even with a complete overhaul of CC mechanics by the most insightful dev team in the world.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
For what it's worth, Jaybezz, I don't hate you, or anyone else for that matter. I do feel however that you have been consistently over dramatic. This tends to undermine your credibility because your style is polarizing.
I have sometimes agreed with you, sometimes not. Telepathy could certainly use a review, since after On Alert power sets have been treated more and more as being self contained. Besides, who would object to a stronger Mind AT or more powers to play with?
By all means, continue your threads. Discussion can lead to change, and the Devs have at times shown to listen to the player base. But working on your style so people don't get distracted from your substance would certainly help.
Pretty.Pixie
My telepath has 676 INT because penetration is worth it, even if it only works on a max of 3 powers (ego blast, ego sprites, and ego storm without malevolent manifestation). Ignore the innate talents.. so many of them are outdated. I would say the suggested stats for a telepath are not PRE/EGO but are INT/EGO. To this note i do NOT advocate putting player penetration into the passive itself. (though if it were a passive for munitions I'd be ALL for it)
The reason, in my suggestion, for pet penetration is because penetration gained by INT does NOT affect your pets.. and many telepathy powers (Summon Nightmare, Psychic Vortex, Collective Will, Malevolent Manifestation) count as pets. Also frankly, pet-masters could use a passive that works in PvP. This suggestion helps two play-styles in one passive.
I also do NOT advocate having bonus to both Crowd Control and Healing.. these are 2 distinctly different support mechanics. We have a passive to boost healing in the form of Seraphim. We need a separate passive to boost Crowd Control in the form of a telepathy's passive.
DPSers on my team DO prevent me from fighting any bad guys.. they're dead before I can even cast one summon (if i play summoning telepathy). They're dead before I can cast one Crowd Control power (if i play CC telepathy). They're dead before i can DPS them myself (the only direct damage is ego blast, ego sprites and Ego Storm.. of which one of those is single target and the other two are rather low in damage).
You hate being on a team where you "fight dummies".. I dont get why but I understand the argument. The game is already dreadfully easy. But on that same notion do you not have the empathy to see how it works in the opposite direction? My abilities to do something VERY unique should be extremely valuable to any team. What you are in effect saying is "I hate teaming".. and that's a whole other issue. However your desire to take that away from me is in direct conflict to my desire to have them, and it's simply a matter of choice and taste. I never advocate removing choice. I want every choice to be as valid as its peer.
DPS is a supported taste. Tanking is a supported taste. Healing is a supported taste. Even Petmastering has found its way.. yet my tastes should be ignored because the player opposite me didn't properly defend themselves against it? That is bullocks, and you have to know this to be true in some form of your argument.
My personal desires aside, I'm talking in many parts about what's good for the game in terms of game mechanics. 1) It's a huge balance changer to change to "soft cc" mechanics, this is not how Champions Online was designed.
TO THE POINT OF THIS THREAD: People could likely have never complained that crowd control was EVER too strong had they EVER actually implemented the STR breaks tangible holds/Ego breaks intangible holds in the first place. This entire LACK of function by CC Resist (not by crowd control strength) is what had thoroughly pissed off the player base.
Even in PvP the CC Resist gear USED TO make players basically IMMUNE to all Crowd Control. Players just didn't want to have to invest in it. Instead, they killed off all PvP crowd control.. and NOW if you're not a ranged build your chances of winning are decimated.
IF YOU DONT LIKE BEING HELD.. YOU SHOULD INVEST IN HOLD RESISTANCE (and it should not be bugged.. lol). If you dont like being killed.. invest in mitigation. If you dont like being tanked, invest in penetration. If you don't like your opponent out-healing your attacks, invest in heal dampners. If you don't like being stealthed... too ****ing bad because developers are idiots when it comes to stealth (LOL).
When you look at the history of Crowd Control.. nerfing CC strength has been BAD for the game in PvP and PvE. The reality and truth is people BLAME Crowd Control Strength when they really SHOULD have been blaming their own Crowd Control Resistance the entire time.
Look at history. Learn from history. Effect positive change. Its not that hard.