*sigh* Okay this is hopeless. Either I REALLY didn't express well, or people here are eager to jump on the troll bus before finishing reading.
I never complained about the Q rates. In fact, if by tomorrow the comunity decided to sell their Zen for 1->500Q, I wouldn't complain at all. It's their money, their decision how to make it worth.
The reason I was complaining about in my post is that for people who have to grind their CP/Zen they now have to grind more for their stuff, ex. 20 CP->Zen more for Action Figures, 1000 CP->Zen more for FF slot.
This MATH (which people are very eager to say I lack) is the same regardless if rates are 1 Zen for 50Q or 1 Zen for 500Q. Let's say I was able to grind 100 CP per day, before conversion I would have had to grind 40 days for a FF slot, now I have to grind for 50 days.
Oh... you thought people here would take a moment to think about the entire situation rather than just racing in to be the first to post "LOL everything went up by 25% MATH IZ HARD LOL" to prove how smart they are? Shame on you.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The discussion was about grinding Q for exchange into CP/Zen, not spending the Q on items in the Q-store. You're comparing apples and oranges here as the OP is not talking about buying Q or even using it in the Q-store, but rather grinding it to buy Zen.
It's not comparing apples and oranges. You are saying that you want to look only at certain parts of a system. Analysis doesn't work like that. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Without the lure of items in the Q Store, who would spend Zen for Q?
Increasing the supply of Q would likely drive the price of Q down. It would take more Q to get a given amount of Zen, not less. I get that people have expectations about the amount of Q grinding needed to get X. However, in an economic system in which people can (within limits) change prices, it is not realistic to expect that things won't change. And increasing the supply of Q is not going to lower the amount of Q needed to get Zen.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
*sigh* Okay this is hopeless. Either I REALLY didn't express well, or people here are eager to jump on the troll bus before finishing reading.
I never complained about the Q rates. In fact, if by tomorrow the comunity decided to sell their Zen for 1->500Q, I wouldn't complain at all. It's their money, their decision how to make it worth.
The reason I was complaining about in my post is that for people who have to grind their CP/Zen they now have to grind more for their stuff, ex. 20 CP->Zen more for Action Figures, 1000 CP->Zen more for FF slot.
This MATH (which people are very eager to say I lack) is the same regardless if rates are 1 Zen for 50Q or 1 Zen for 500Q. Let's say I was able to grind 100 CP per day, before conversion I would have had to grind 40 days for a FF slot, now I have to grind for 50 days.
Yes it will take more units of Zen to buy a FF slot than it took units of CP. But, as the market balances in the face of a sudden massive increase (and 25% is just that) in the supply of CP (now Zen) your Questionite should gain an edge in the conversion rate to offset that effect.
Yes it will take more units of Zen to buy a FF slot than it took units of CP. But, as the market balances in the face of a sudden massive increase (and 25% is just that) in the supply of CP (now Zen) your Questionite should gain an edge in the conversion rate to offset that effect.
So far, the price of Zen on the exchange has continued to rise. It seems what we were taught in macroeconomics was just theory after all.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
*sigh* Okay this is hopeless. Either I REALLY didn't express well, or people here are eager to jump on the troll bus before finishing reading.
I never complained about the Q rates. In fact, if by tomorrow the comunity decided to sell their Zen for 1->500Q, I wouldn't complain at all. It's their money, their decision how to make it worth.
The reason I was complaining about in my post is that for people who have to grind their CP/Zen they now have to grind more for their stuff, ex. 20 CP->Zen more for Action Figures, 1000 CP->Zen more for FF slot.
This MATH (which people are very eager to say I lack) is the same regardless if rates are 1 Zen for 50Q or 1 Zen for 500Q. Let's say I was able to grind 100 CP per day, before conversion I would have had to grind 40 days for a FF slot, now I have to grind for 50 days.
I understand your frustration. Based on current prices in the Q Exchange, you have to grind more to get the points to buy C Store stuff you want. But, this is not because of Cryptic making the change. If the players selling Zen had retained the old rate, then it would have been 160 Q --> 1 Zen, and your grind would remain the same.
It's natural to blame the developer, but what is really going on is that the players who are selling Zen used the changeover as an excuse to raise their asking price. So, those people in the community you say say have the right to set the price they want? They are the ones who raised the bar and increased your grind.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The amount of Q gained from missions and boxes as well as the cap needs to reflect the x1.25 increase made of all items. I'm sure that all amounts and the cap was set with the CP values in mind, not for Zen.
So far, the price of Zen on the exchange has continued to rise. It seems what we were taught in macroeconomics was just theory after all.
Maybe, maybe not. All offers were removed, so people are putting their Zen and Q back up. There is going to be a period of adjustment, no doubt. The price may in fact never come down, but that would tell me that people selling the Q were buying at the less advantageous rates. Another possibility is that the supply of Zen (which theoretically went up) might actually have decreased due to intangibles such as fewer people caring about what's on the Q Store and not wanting to sell their Zen.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
So far, the price of Zen on the exchange has continued to rise. It seems what we were taught in macroeconomics was just theory after all.
We are up to what, 30 hours (Im not sure exactly when the game came back online yesterday) ?
36 perhaps ?
I did try to make a point of saying, "should," rather than, "will," in my posts on the matter because there are other variables at work here (some of which we do not have full access to)
Now, of course, if demand (temporarily) rises to match the rise in supply all bets are off for a while. The newest purchasable additions to the game are accessible through the C-Store. This will likely see a temporary increase in the value/demand for Zen.
When the next addition hits the Q-Store we will most likely see the exchange rate tilt the other way again.
Hmm, I don't recall the prices of items in the Q store going up by 25%. Thus, there is no reason to raise the rewards or refinement limits. If people stop buying the Q at the "higher" prices, then prices will go down. The current situation was initiated by the developer's changes, but was actually the doing of the sellers. Whether it gets worse, better or stays the same is up to the buyers.
So the fact that now, if conversion hits 500 per zen it would now be a total of 2,500,000 to buy the FF slot for 5,000 Zen means nothign to you?
As opposed to 2,000,000 if ti was still 4,000 Cryptic points.
That's an extra 500,000 Questionite people have to grind. Again, assuming it's now set to max price.
if we go to the minimum of 50.
50 * 4000 = 200,000
50 * 5000 = 250,000 (+50,000)
But hey, i guess it doesn't matter, because atferall, clearly it's a player run exhcnage only, so there's no possible way cryptic are why there's a sudden shift in an extra 500,000 to the top of the value of the FF slots, because they worked tirelessly to ensure all values converted so there wouldn't be a noticeable different.
And don't get me wrong, that was sarcasm, i find it brilliant actually, they saw a spot that it's clear not many people will notice.
But really now, it's a community controlled exchange, i get that. But it's obvious there is a definite increase in grinding, caused by this conversion. If cryptic were to address this situation and say they thought about this and decided they wanted this to be this way, then so be it. but if not, it's just considered an oversight that needs correcting.
if they just change the price range to 40-400 instead, that should fix it
and then 400 * 5000 = 2,000,000
40 * 5000 = 200,000
As for the player decided prices though, sure, it's too late for that, but atleast this will restore the total parameters of the minimim and maximum prices to how they previously were Since there is no doubt, that that was a change caused by cryptic.
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Then why is the OP blaming PWE/Cryptic for this?QUOTE]
Because they increased the cost of of items in the Zen-store when they converted. Assuming the exchange rate stays stable, it now takes more Q to buy the same item as before the conversion.
It's not comparing apples and oranges. You are saying that you want to look only at certain parts of a system. Analysis doesn't work like that. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Without the lure of items in the Q Store, who would spend Zen for Q?
Increasing the supply of Q would likely drive the price of Q down. It would take more Q to get a given amount of Zen, not less. I get that people have expectations about the amount of Q grinding needed to get X. However, in an economic system in which people can (within limits) change prices, it is not realistic to expect that things won't change. And increasing the supply of Q is not going to lower the amount of Q needed to get Zen.
LOL. Nobody, but we were not discussing spending Zen for Q....
The amount of Q gained from missions and boxes as well as the cap needs to reflect the x1.25 increase made of all items. I'm sure that all amounts and the cap was set with the CP values in mind, not for Zen.
:biggrin:
Careful, your math may be called into question.
One final thought... remember that the entire point of this system is to get players to spend real life money on Zen. Until items of value go into the Q-store, the exchange rate for Q to Zen will rise so you will buy Zen to minimize the grind for Q.
One final thought... remember that the entire point of this system is to get players to spend real life money on Zen. Until items of value go into the Q-store, the exchange rate for Q to Zen will rise so you will buy Zen to minimize the grind for Q.
See ya in-game. :cool:
The game is here to make money, so any situation that makes them more money is justified. Nice... think I've heard it before, but nice.
"Capitalism HO!" -Recettear
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Public Service Announcement - Kids, this is why math IS important. So for all those times you whined and protested "but when am I ever going to use this in real life" - here you go.
The OP seems to be under the impression that he was grinding for CP directly. He stated that he did not mean the exchange rate of Q for CP. I would sincerely like to know how he thought he was getting his CP directly, as so far as I know, there is no mechanism in place in-game to do this.
And when the conversions were done, your Zen point balance was (theoretically - there have apparently been a few case-by-case glitches in the process, but it worked for me) adjusted by exactly the same percentage as prices rose in the C-Store. In terms of real-world currency, the prices remained exactly the same; it's just that now instead of an 80:1 conversion to USD, it's 100:1. (If your balance has not yet been adjusted, send in a ticket, as they seem to be responding to those these days.)
The only other bottleneck I can see in the process is the Exchange - and I reiterate, prices in the Exchange are set by buyer and seller, not by Cryptic/PWE. The conversion of the economy from CP to Zen had nothing to do with the drop in value of Q on the exchange, except insofar as it may have represented people wanting to charge more Q for the Zen they sell because they perceive a drop in value.
This is beginning to remind me of those who wish to blame the office of the President of the United States for the volatility of the New York Stock Exchange, even though said volatility clearly results more from economic issues in Greece than anything any politician in the States is doing...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
well all i know is now i need to pay for 2 months instaid of 1 to get 1 new travel power
I seem to recall that TPs used to be 420 CP - you still needed more than just one month's basic stipend to get them. Same song, different verse...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I can understand the first few posters to call him out for what they percieved as just bad math skills, but there's like 9 pages now to clarify what was meant, so you're just still ignoring the fact there's still a definite change in the exchange caused by this conversion, which i will quote a previous post of mine to point it out
The OP seems to be under the impression that he was grinding for CP directly. He stated that he did not mean the exchange rate of Q for CP. I would sincerely like to know how he thought he was getting his CP directly, as so far as I know, there is no mechanism in place in-game to do this.
And when the conversions were done, your Zen point balance was (theoretically - there have apparently been a few case-by-case glitches in the process, but it worked for me) adjusted by exactly the same percentage as prices rose in the C-Store. In terms of real-world currency, the prices remained exactly the same; it's just that now instead of an 80:1 conversion to USD, it's 100:1. (If your balance has not yet been adjusted, send in a ticket, as they seem to be responding to those these days.)
The only other bottleneck I can see in the process is the Exchange - and I reiterate, prices in the Exchange are set by buyer and seller, not by Cryptic/PWE. The conversion of the economy from CP to Zen had nothing to do with the drop in value of Q on the exchange, except insofar as it may have represented people wanting to charge more Q for the Zen they sell because they perceive a drop in value.
This is beginning to remind me of those who wish to blame the office of the President of the United States for the volatility of the New York Stock Exchange, even though said volatility clearly results more from economic issues in Greece than anything any politician in the States is doing...
I don't know anything about that, but if there was ever any time where there was a defininte cause of it caused by their own changes of things, then yes, it would be fair to pin it on their responsibility. However, if you check your math on what it would cost to buy 1 FF slot at the minimum price, and maximum price at both the CP price and the Zen price and comapred it, you'll notice a 50,000-500,000 increase. And that was definitaly caused by a change that cryptic made. So unless you're saying someone hacked into the game and changed all this, then it's a cryptic caused change, and not a player/community caused one, which is in my opinion something that should never mix, either make something 100% Community, or 100% Developer controlled. wouldn't you people chuck a massive spaz if someone in cryptic just started selling Therakiel's Sword or all the new boss costumes for 1G each when Community Market value ranges close to 3k on average? or they started telling people, they aren't allowed to sell it for under 5k. I don't see how this is much different in some terms, just a different structure for it is all.
if conversion hits 500 per zen it would now be a total of 2,500,000 to buy the FF slot for 5,000
As opposed to 2,000,000 if ti was still 4,000 Cryptic points.
That's an extra 500,000 Questionite people have to grind. Again, assuming it's now set to max price.
if we go to the minimum of 50.
50 * 4000 = 200,000
50 * 5000 = 250,000 (+50,000)
But hey, i guess it doesn't matter, because atferall, clearly it's a player run exhcnage only, so there's no possible way cryptic are why there's a sudden shift in an extra 500,000 to the top of the value of the FF slots, because they worked tirelessly to ensure all values converted so there wouldn't be a noticeable different.
And don't get me wrong, that was sarcasm, i find it brilliant actually, they saw a spot that it's clear not many people will notice.
But really now, it's a community controlled exchange, i get that. But it's obvious there is a definite increase in grinding, caused by this conversion. If cryptic were to address this situation and say they thought about this and decided they wanted this to be this way, then so be it. but if not, it's just considered an oversight that needs correcting.
if they just change the price range to 40-400 instead, that should fix it
and then 400 * 5000 = 2,000,000
40 * 5000 = 200,000
As for the player decided prices though, sure, it's too late for that, but atleast this will restore the total parameters of the minimim and maximum prices to how they previously were Since there is no doubt, that that was a change caused by cryptic.
I go on vacation for a week and come back to zero zen. I had cryptic points before I left.
What's the deal here? How do I recover my stolen money?
Did you check this in game, or on website? I'd suggest checking in game if you haven't already.. then send a ticket if still nothing. If the points you had were from actually spending real money, you can try asking for an audit on your purchase history to also prove your case.
I just checked the store - a Freeform slot costs 5000 Zen, which is exactly the same value (in USD) as 4000 CP - that is to say, $50 US, which used to buy 4000 CP, and now buys 5000 Z. Same thing.
Now, if you have to grind more Q in order to swap it in the Exchange for the Zen needed for the slot, that's a matter of valuation in the Exchange. And this is not the doing of either Cryptic or PWE. It is not inherent in the change in currency, merely in the nature of a floating exchange.
Really, I can't think of any way to be any more plain. The cost in currency is exactly the same after the change as before. For a long time, CP was going for about 180 Q or so; in the equivalent exchange in STO, Dilithium was trading at around 250 per point of CP. This was a matter of what people were willing to pay, not anything to do with any moves made by the company.
I know it's fun to blame everything that goes awry with our own plans on PWE, but in this particular case, they are innocent. For a change.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Have to say I'm not sure I see how changing the min/max prices in the exchange is going to make any difference other than perhaps psychologically. Nobody is buying at anywhere near the maximum, nor is anyone selling at the minimum. Blaming the craziness in the exchange on the change to the min/max is ridiculous.
Just because your fellow players are using the confusion to ramp up the exchange rate does not make it Cryptic's or PWE's fault. And it isn't some vast conspiracy to rip people off. If you want ripoffs the grab bags are the place to look. This is just the kind of thing that always happens when there is a change in a player run economy. The same kind of nonsense happens in the auction house all the time.
I just checked the store - a Freeform slot costs 5000 Zen, which is exactly the same value (in USD) as 4000 CP - that is to say, $50 US, which used to buy 4000 CP, and now buys 5000 Z. Same thing.
Now, if you have to grind more Q in order to swap it in the Exchange for the Zen needed for the slot, that's a matter of valuation in the Exchange. And this is not the doing of either Cryptic or PWE. It is not inherent in the change in currency, merely in the nature of a floating exchange.
Really, I can't think of any way to be any more plain. The cost in currency is exactly the same after the change as before. For a long time, CP was going for about 180 Q or so; in the equivalent exchange in STO, Dilithium was trading at around 250 per point of CP. This was a matter of what people were willing to pay, not anything to do with any moves made by the company.
I know it's fun to blame everything that goes awry with our own plans on PWE, but in this particular case, they are innocent. For a change.
And i don't know how to make it any more plain for you.
Do your own damned math then.
Calculate the minimum price of 50 q per CP for a FF slot, at 4000, and compare it to 50 for 1 zen at 5000 for the ff slot. there's definately a rise there.
Then, check the same thing for the maximum price of 500 q to 1 CP for the price of 4000, compared to zen at 5000.
For the last time, OBVIOUSLY, players will decide their own prices. I know this, i've said it over 1000 times, it's not relevant to what i am actually saying.
If you somehow think that 2,500,000 Questionite at the max price is 100% equal to 2,000,000 Then this simply proves the OP's statement about certain people's reading and math skills.
I'm not arguing that players should lower their price, i don't care about that side of, but just because it may seem like it's a factor because of the topic, doesn't mean it's actually a valid factor of the topic.
ALl i am saying, which i've said a lot now, is that there is a definate shift in the totals of minimum and the maximum price range, obviously no one will ever seriously be able to get 5000 Zen for 50 Q each, because that's unrealistic, however it will be possible about the extra 500k Q put on the top at 500 per zen, but you're ignoring that because for some reason you seem to think the minimum/maximum price range totals going up by 50k-500k has obviously a player caused issue, and not a scaling issue when cryptic converted CP to zen.
I get it, you seem to think i'm complaining abou the player price of Zen for 200 Q atm, honestly, i don't care, heck, just as long as the price range is re-scaled to how it was before, i'd be willing to let the price remain at 200 untill it goes up or down, why you ask? Because that's something i'm not arguing or caring about
I can understand the first few posters to call him out for what they percieved as just bad math skills, but there's like 9 pages now to clarify what was meant,
And now it's not the math skills that are bad, but the critical thinking skills. Once again, CRYPTIC AND PWE HAVE NO INTERACTION WITH THE QUESTIONITE EXCHANGE BEYOND SETTING A MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM PRICE PER POINT
"The maximum" is relatively meaningless. It's not going to become meaningful for years, for it to really have an impact there would have to be substantial inflation of Q on the market (more than twice the current supply). Likewise, the minimum is relatively irrelevant. Before the conversion the price of 1 CP floated around 180-200. At this price, 1 ZEN would be around 150-160. The 25% increase in Q prices is solely due to sellers seeing what they can get away with and buyers not giving a ****. Either way the price is floating right in the middle of the minimum and maximum, and those points aren't likely to make significant, or any impact until prices trend so far towards one end that they actually bump up against them.
I get it, you seem to think i'm complaining abou the player price of Zen for 200 Q atm, honestly, i don't care, heck, just as long as the price range is re-scaled to how it was before, i'd be willing to let the price remain at 200 untill it goes up or down, why you ask? Because that's something i'm not arguing or caring about
You're basically arguing about something that is wholly irrelevant, and indeed, not likely to be relevant for several years.
They don't need to touch the price range because the prices aren't anywhere near either limit, nor likely to trend overmuch in either direction.
Florghhh, that only matters if Zen is selling for the minimum Q amount. As it stands, your figures are irrelevant - and may even be inaccurate, at this point (do we, in fact, know for certain what the minimum and maximum values are?). Unless someone sells for this theoretical minimum, nothing Cryptic or PWE has done affects the amount of Q you need to grind at all, and getting pissy about that is even more pointless than most such moments of pissiness.
BTW, just logged into STO to check it out - Dilithium is selling for a minimum of 281 per point of Zen right now.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Have to say I'm not sure I see how changing the min/max prices in the exchange is going to make any difference other than perhaps psychologically. Nobody is buying at anywhere near the maximum, nor is anyone selling at the minimum. Blaming the craziness in the exchange on the change to the min/max is ridiculous.
Just because your fellow players are using the confusion to ramp up the exchange rate does not make it Cryptic's or PWE's fault. And it isn't some vast conspiracy to rip people off. If you want ripoffs the grab bags are the place to look. This is just the kind of thing that always happens when there is a change in a player run economy. The same kind of nonsense happens in the auction house all the time.
I never said the player decided prices were cryptics' fault, i'm merely pointing out, there's still been an oversight in the conversion. All i'm saying is, the price range was set based on CP, not zen, with this conversion, it's only fair to want to the re-balance the boundaries, because they still have an added Q total to items at those limites, that's all.
And now it's not the math skills that are bad, but the critical thinking skills. Once again, CRYPTIC AND PWE HAVE NO INTERACTION WITH THE QUESTIONITE EXCHANGE BEYOND SETTING A MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM PRICE PER POINT
"The maximum" is relatively meaningless. It's not going to become meaningful for years, for it to really have an impact there would have to be substantial inflation of Q on the market (more than twice the current supply). Likewise, the minimum is relatively irrelevant. Before the conversion the price of 1 CP floated around 180-200. At this price, 1 ZEN would be around 150-160. The 25% increase in Q prices is solely due to sellers seeing what they can get away with and buyers not giving a ****. Either way the price is floating right in the middle of the minimum and maximum, and those points aren't likely to make significant, or any impact until prices trend so far towards one end that they actually bump up against them.
You're basically arguing about something that is wholly irrelevant, and indeed, not likely to be relevant for several years.
They don't need to touch the price range because the prices aren't anywhere near either limit, nor likely to trend overmuch in either direction.
So you're arguing, even though it's obviously cause a degree of scaling, it doesn't matter because it's not currently near that mark? So what would you say if it did reach that price then? "Oh, i was agasint a re-balance before because ti was never near it, but now that is it, clearly it shoudl be looked at" or "Oh i know i said that, and now that it's near the price, i'm still going to say no just because"
either way, what's wrong with doing it now then if not later? or why the sudden change of mind, or woudl you be one of those people trying to sell for the max and make a profit? But if you're going to argue, cryptic are allowed to change prices as they see fit, how about if they change it to the max is 100, would you protest then? it is their game after all, you have no right to rage about their choices in changing the price limits. It's not a factor of cryptic changed these values, but a case of they changed somethign else and these values do not reflect on those changes. pointing it out to have it looked at isn't the same as demanding they change it, but an attempt to have them notice the problem if they hhaven't already, and adjust it unless they actually DECIDE not to. So put those critical thinking skills to that.
Florghhh, that only matters if Zen is selling for the minimum Q amount. As it stands, your figures are irrelevant - and may even be inaccurate, at this point (do we, in fact, know for certain what the minimum and maximum values are?). Unless someone sells for this theoretical minimum, nothing Cryptic or PWE has done affects the amount of Q you need to grind at all, and getting pissy about that is even more pointless than most such moments of pissiness.
BTW, just logged into STO to check it out - Dilithium is selling for a minimum of 281 per point of Zen right now.
I'm not getting pissy, i'm just pointing out the fact, no need to be afriad to admit you're wrong
(do we, in fact, know for certain what the minimum and maximum values are?).
it's actually very easy to find, go read the release article about the exchange, it will specify the range, as well as in game, try to buy/sell 1 zen for 49 or 501 if that fails, try 50 or 500, you will see a sudden difference.
All i'm saying is, the price range was set based on CP, not zen.
This is true, but not particularly relevant as at no point have exchange rates been at either max or minimum of the range (nor are they likely to ever be) and there is plenty of room in between those limits to cover the adjustment so that normal market conditions can allow supply and demand to determine the appropriate exchange rate.
This is true, but not particularly relevant as at no point have exchange rates been at either max or minimum of the range (nor are they likely to ever be) and there is plenty of room in between those limits to cover the adjustment so that normal market conditions can allow supply and demand to determine the appropriate exchange rate.
If it's not relevant, then why is everyone jumping down my throat about pointing this out, and against the idea of wanting Cryptic to at least re-balance those limits?
If those people are going to argue it's a moot point for me to point out, then it's a moot point for them to jump down my throat =\
And don't take that the wrong way in regards to you saying it's moot, you atleast show you acknowledge the point, without overall arguing strongly against it.
I don't know why people keep trying to explain economics to the OP. He refuses to understand it, at all.
I don't think it's so much a refuse to understand, but a general refusal to be corrected.
Have you ever had a time when someone corrected you on something and you felt at least a little bit cut off, blew the person off, moved on content in the knowledge that you were correct the whole time, but then later on got to thinking about it and realized they were correct? Or have you ever had a conversation with someone where they were surprised you changed your mind on something because you seemed so adamant before?
That's what I think is going on here, only possibly without the whole changing of the mind later thing. That might still yet happen, but many times people just flat out refuse to admit they could even possibly be wrong. Heck, there's even people going around the country doing self help seminars where they tell people to never admit being wrong under any circumstances, because it's a sign of weakness...
In my opinion, I think it's a sign of weakness to refuse to admit that one could be wrong.
I think everyone does, but no, this is outright refusal just because he doesn't want to accept that economics do not work in whatever magical world he has constructed. I also don't buy many of the other parts of his story either. But that's another issue entirely. At this point, so far all he's done has been hostile, bashed nationalities, attacked other posters that point out the error of his ways, called people stupid or liars and pretty much accused PWE of purposely cutting prices.
If it's not relevant, then why is everyone jumping down my throat about pointing this out, and against the idea of wanting Cryptic to at least re-balance those limits?
If those people are going to argue it's a moot point for me to point out, then it's a moot point for them to jump down my throat =\
And don't take that the wrong way in regards to you saying it's moot, you atleast show you acknowledge the point, without overall arguing strongly against it.
At this point both sides are doing the equivalent of pointing out that the sky is blue, water is wet, and kittens are cute. You say that the upper and lower limit in the Q exchange were balanced around the original value of a single unit of CP rather than the value of Zen. Absolutely true, but no more relevant to the game than the fact that water is wet since the upper and lower limits are never actually used. Others point out that the actual exchange rate is determined by players, not Cryptic, which is no more relevant to your point than the fact that the sky is (often) blue.
So we have someone raising a point that is irrelevant to the game and others attempting to counter it with information that is irrelevant to the point.
At this point both sides are doing the equivalent of pointing out that the sky is blue, water is wet, and kittens are cute. You say that the upper and lower limit in the Q exchange were balanced around the original value of a single unit of CP rather than the value of Zen. Absolutely true, but no more relevant to the game than the fact that water is wet since the upper and lower limits are never actually used. Others point out that the actual exchange rate is determined by players, not Cryptic, which is no more relevant to your point than the fact that the sky is (often) blue.
So we have someone raising a point that is irrelevant to the game and others attempting to counter it with information that is irrelevant to the point.
Business as usual.
So my points are only invalid at this time simply because the player value of zen isn't at this number?
I believe that makes it still valid, as people imply, my point is invalid simply because it's not anywhere near those limits, meaning that if it ever does, it will instantly validate my points, and thus warrant it being looked at.
That's like someone knowing there's a bomb in a building, and trying to tell officials, but they dismiss it saying "it doesn't matter, it hasn't come anywhere near it's set time, so we'll worry about it later, or not at all"
If you know something is off, the fact that it's not in the opinion of ever reaching that parameter is no excuse to ignore it.
So my points are only invalid at this time simply because the player value of zen isn't at this number?
I believe that makes it still valid, as people imply, my point is invalid simply because it's not anywhere near those limits, meaning that if it ever does, it will instantly validate my points, and thus warrant it being looked at.
That's like someone knowing there's a bomb in a building, and trying to tell officials, but they dismiss it saying "it doesn't matter, it hasn't come anywhere near it's set time, so we'll worry about it later, or not at all"
If you know something is off, the fact that it's not in the opinion of ever reaching that parameter is no excuse to ignore it.
Nothing is off. The players control the Q market. End of story. Sorry you feel cheated, but markets ebb and flow all the time.
That's like someone knowing there's a bomb in a building, and trying to tell officials, but they dismiss it saying "it doesn't matter, it hasn't come anywhere near it's set time, so we'll worry about it later, or not at all"
If you know something is off, the fact that it's not in the opinion of ever reaching that parameter is no excuse to ignore it.
This isn't anywhere near a market crisis. It's no where near a complete catastrophe to illicit a "bomb".
If you think the inflation is insane, did you not see how high it jumped during the sale recently?
If you don't like the conversion rates, don't convert. The only reason they're at their level now is because other people are content. One really should be grateful that they've risen as slow as they have considering you can get a lot more with currency than you can with q.
And i'm sorry you don't seem to comprehend what i'm actually saying, if you think i "feel cheated"
"nothing is off" except, i just pointed out the 50k-500k range difference, and it's "not off"
If you don't want the range re-balanced, just say so, but don't troll and argue it's not off, when it actually is.
There is no 50k-500k difference. This is again you failing to understand the nature of the argument. You are now just arguing to argue. Because it isn't off. You just want to proclaim it unfair, well sorry, they can't control what players do, and them changing the top and bottom value isn't going to change how much players decide their CP/Zen is worth in Q.
Yes there is. If you knew math, you would understand this simple mathematical process.
Let's do a short math lesson comparing values, of both CP and Zen, to what it would cost at the minimum and maximum conversion values to buy one FF slot, at both the previous CP price of 4,000 compared to the Zen value of 5,000
FF slot at minimum Q value for 4,000 CP:
50 * 4,000 = 200,000
FF slot at maximum Q value for 4,000 CP:
500 * 4,000 = 2,000,000
FF slot at minimum Q value for 5,000 Zen:
50 * 5,000 = 250,000
FF slot at maximum Q value for 5,000 Zen:
500 * 5,000 = 2,500,000
As you see, there IS a 50k total added to the top of the minimum, and 500k to the top of the maximum values, hence, they have gone up 50k -500k to the min/max
You just want to proclaim it unfair, well sorry, they can't control what players do, and them changing the top and bottom value isn't going to change how much players decide their CP/Zen is worth in Q.
This sentence here is why you fail to understand. Seriously, how many times must i say, I am well aware the fact players will decide what price to buy/sell things. Even if Cryptic do re-balance the min/max price values, it won't change the current going price, so stop using that as your arguing point. Did i say it's unfair? no, i simply point out, they still, WHETHER INTENDED OR NOT, have actually caused a shift in the total min/max price range.
and yet all i get from people are "no, it's not different at all, 200k and 250k is exactly identical, so it's not different, the same with 2million and 2.5million are identical, i don't know what you're talking about!"
This isn't anywhere near a market crisis. It's no where near a complete catastrophe to illicit a "bomb".
If you think the inflation is insane, did you not see how high it jumped during the sale recently?
If you don't like the conversion rates, don't convert. The only reason they're at their level now is because other people are content. One really should be grateful that they've risen as slow as they have considering you can get a lot more with currency than you can with q.
I didn't say this was anywhere near a crisis, again, another example of someone reads a post, and think "He's pointing out a difference in the system, clearly he's just crying over having to pay more, so obv all he says is wrong, oh he said 2 + 2 = 4, obviously it's not 4 then."
I'm not delusional, obviously, even if this was re-scaled to fit zen at the same ratio, people would still sell at the price it's at now, duh, they did it even when the conversion took place, because it's obvious in human nature not to go down from the last price they remember, even if there's more now.
My bomb analogy was simply to point out a flaw in the argument "well it hasn't happened yet so it's no big deal"
So my points are only invalid at this time simply because the player value of zen isn't at this number?
I believe that makes it still valid, as people imply, my point is invalid simply because it's not anywhere near those limits, meaning that if it ever does, it will instantly validate my points, and thus warrant it being looked at.
That's like someone knowing there's a bomb in a building, and trying to tell officials, but they dismiss it saying "it doesn't matter, it hasn't come anywhere near it's set time, so we'll worry about it later, or not at all"
If you know something is off, the fact that it's not in the opinion of ever reaching that parameter is no excuse to ignore it.
1) Nothing is off here. The point you are arguing has no consequences or effect.
2) Using your bomb analogy: Its more like saying that my house has never been bombed, there is no threat of a bomb there now, the likelihood of it ever being bombed is so statistically close to being zero that it might as well be zero, and yet arguing that we need to have it swept by the bomb squad.
It is more likely that any innocuous given home in a normally safe neighborhood will be bombed at random than that the Q exchange will hit, let alone stick at, either end of the range.
What happens as it approaches the minimum ?
Demand goes up, driving the price up as well.
What happens as it approaches the maximum ?
Demand goes down, driving the price down as well.
I suppose, technically, if nearly everyone stopped playing the game normal market forces would become sufficiently weak to throw this off.
Then again, if you, and maybe one or two other people, are the only one playing the game, you'll have a lot more to worry about than teh exchange rate of Questionite (and would face an insufficient supply of Zen for the exchange rate to matter anyway.)
Disregarding floghhh's point's relevance, he is actually correct about the amount of Q required to get a Zen at the minimum and maximum allowable values. Pointing this out is not crying or whining about the current price, assuming that is all he is doing.
If I had any confidence in Cryptic's thoroughness, I might assume that they had looked at the min/max values and decided to leave them alone. I find it all too easy to believe that a short-handed dev team missed that point. Bringing it to their attention does no harm. However, doing so in this thread might be a mistake, as the OP was not about the min/max rates, but about the current price.
Apropos of nothing, does anyone know the current exchange rate on STO? Iirc, the CP-->Dilithium rate got very near, if not at, the max at one time.
_________________________________________________
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Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I see why alot of people are angry about this,the fact it now takes longer to get Qnite to exchange for zen.The way I see it,they can either give us more opportunities to get more questionite,or go back to CP and lower c store prices so that we can reach it via the exchange.
Apropos of nothing, does anyone know the current exchange rate on STO? Iirc, the CP-->Dilithium rate got very near, if not at, the max at one time.
As of last night, the exchange rate of D -> Zen was starting at 281:1.
And as for florghhh, and the OP, well... <points at sig> Done with that argument.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I'm sorry, get over it. Basic math has nothing to do with economics. Again, you can claim how unfair it is, but hell, you don't even want to pay to begin with. The fact you just don't want to get it anyways is probably the funniest part. Changing the high or low part isn't going to change what people sell their Zen for in Q. And Cryptic isn't going to force people to change their Q prices just for you.
You can keep trying to say Cryptic owes you something, they don't. This is economics, and trying to throw math around like it means something isn't going to change what the market feels like.
In short, you are making up facts because you simply think you are self entitled to something. You are not.
Disregarding floghhh's point's relevance, he is actually correct about the amount of Q required to get a Zen at the minimum and maximum allowable values. Pointing this out is not crying or whining about the current price, assuming that is all he is doing.
If I had any confidence in Cryptic's thoroughness, I might assume that they had looked at the min/max values and decided to leave them alone. I find it all too easy to believe that a short-handed dev team missed that point. Bringing it to their attention does no harm. However, doing so in this thread might be a mistake, as the OP was not about the min/max rates, but about the current price.
Apropos of nothing, does anyone know the current exchange rate on STO? Iirc, the CP-->Dilithium rate got very near, if not at, the max at one time.
Actually, it is crying and whining. He wants Cryptic to force players to change how they value their Zen on the market. The market is constantly shifting in price, and he wants people to shift for him, or he wants Cryptic to come in and force a price change. It isn't going to happen.
Comments
Oh... you thought people here would take a moment to think about the entire situation rather than just racing in to be the first to post "LOL everything went up by 25% MATH IZ HARD LOL" to prove how smart they are? Shame on you.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It's not comparing apples and oranges. You are saying that you want to look only at certain parts of a system. Analysis doesn't work like that. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Without the lure of items in the Q Store, who would spend Zen for Q?
Increasing the supply of Q would likely drive the price of Q down. It would take more Q to get a given amount of Zen, not less. I get that people have expectations about the amount of Q grinding needed to get X. However, in an economic system in which people can (within limits) change prices, it is not realistic to expect that things won't change. And increasing the supply of Q is not going to lower the amount of Q needed to get Zen.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Yes it will take more units of Zen to buy a FF slot than it took units of CP. But, as the market balances in the face of a sudden massive increase (and 25% is just that) in the supply of CP (now Zen) your Questionite should gain an edge in the conversion rate to offset that effect.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
So far, the price of Zen on the exchange has continued to rise. It seems what we were taught in macroeconomics was just theory after all.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I understand your frustration. Based on current prices in the Q Exchange, you have to grind more to get the points to buy C Store stuff you want. But, this is not because of Cryptic making the change. If the players selling Zen had retained the old rate, then it would have been 160 Q --> 1 Zen, and your grind would remain the same.
It's natural to blame the developer, but what is really going on is that the players who are selling Zen used the changeover as an excuse to raise their asking price. So, those people in the community you say say have the right to set the price they want? They are the ones who raised the bar and increased your grind.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Maybe, maybe not. All offers were removed, so people are putting their Zen and Q back up. There is going to be a period of adjustment, no doubt. The price may in fact never come down, but that would tell me that people selling the Q were buying at the less advantageous rates. Another possibility is that the supply of Zen (which theoretically went up) might actually have decreased due to intangibles such as fewer people caring about what's on the Q Store and not wanting to sell their Zen.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
We are up to what, 30 hours (Im not sure exactly when the game came back online yesterday) ?
36 perhaps ?
I did try to make a point of saying, "should," rather than, "will," in my posts on the matter because there are other variables at work here (some of which we do not have full access to)
Now, of course, if demand (temporarily) rises to match the rise in supply all bets are off for a while. The newest purchasable additions to the game are accessible through the C-Store. This will likely see a temporary increase in the value/demand for Zen.
When the next addition hits the Q-Store we will most likely see the exchange rate tilt the other way again.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
So the fact that now, if conversion hits 500 per zen it would now be a total of 2,500,000 to buy the FF slot for 5,000 Zen means nothign to you?
As opposed to 2,000,000 if ti was still 4,000 Cryptic points.
That's an extra 500,000 Questionite people have to grind. Again, assuming it's now set to max price.
if we go to the minimum of 50.
50 * 4000 = 200,000
50 * 5000 = 250,000 (+50,000)
But hey, i guess it doesn't matter, because atferall, clearly it's a player run exhcnage only, so there's no possible way cryptic are why there's a sudden shift in an extra 500,000 to the top of the value of the FF slots, because they worked tirelessly to ensure all values converted so there wouldn't be a noticeable different.
And don't get me wrong, that was sarcasm, i find it brilliant actually, they saw a spot that it's clear not many people will notice.
But really now, it's a community controlled exchange, i get that. But it's obvious there is a definite increase in grinding, caused by this conversion. If cryptic were to address this situation and say they thought about this and decided they wanted this to be this way, then so be it. but if not, it's just considered an oversight that needs correcting.
if they just change the price range to 40-400 instead, that should fix it
and then 400 * 5000 = 2,000,000
40 * 5000 = 200,000
As for the player decided prices though, sure, it's too late for that, but atleast this will restore the total parameters of the minimim and maximum prices to how they previously were Since there is no doubt, that that was a change caused by cryptic.
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
Oakay, who's got cake? I like cake, with cream cheese frosting....
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
LOL. Nobody, but we were not discussing spending Zen for Q....
I give up, continue on. Great sig btw.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
:biggrin:
Careful, your math may be called into question.
One final thought... remember that the entire point of this system is to get players to spend real life money on Zen. Until items of value go into the Q-store, the exchange rate for Q to Zen will rise so you will buy Zen to minimize the grind for Q.
See ya in-game. :cool:
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
The game is here to make money, so any situation that makes them more money is justified. Nice... think I've heard it before, but nice.
"Capitalism HO!" -Recettear
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Amen to that! AGREE 100%!!!
PS: A good online community to help people of all levels learn some math, http://openstudy.com/study#/groups/Mathematics
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
And when the conversions were done, your Zen point balance was (theoretically - there have apparently been a few case-by-case glitches in the process, but it worked for me) adjusted by exactly the same percentage as prices rose in the C-Store. In terms of real-world currency, the prices remained exactly the same; it's just that now instead of an 80:1 conversion to USD, it's 100:1. (If your balance has not yet been adjusted, send in a ticket, as they seem to be responding to those these days.)
The only other bottleneck I can see in the process is the Exchange - and I reiterate, prices in the Exchange are set by buyer and seller, not by Cryptic/PWE. The conversion of the economy from CP to Zen had nothing to do with the drop in value of Q on the exchange, except insofar as it may have represented people wanting to charge more Q for the Zen they sell because they perceive a drop in value.
This is beginning to remind me of those who wish to blame the office of the President of the United States for the volatility of the New York Stock Exchange, even though said volatility clearly results more from economic issues in Greece than anything any politician in the States is doing...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Yes, it's all the same price, but now it's using a 1:1 ratio instead of the $1.00 = 80 CP. Prices haven't changed any.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I can understand the first few posters to call him out for what they percieved as just bad math skills, but there's like 9 pages now to clarify what was meant, so you're just still ignoring the fact there's still a definite change in the exchange caused by this conversion, which i will quote a previous post of mine to point it out
I don't know anything about that, but if there was ever any time where there was a defininte cause of it caused by their own changes of things, then yes, it would be fair to pin it on their responsibility. However, if you check your math on what it would cost to buy 1 FF slot at the minimum price, and maximum price at both the CP price and the Zen price and comapred it, you'll notice a 50,000-500,000 increase. And that was definitaly caused by a change that cryptic made. So unless you're saying someone hacked into the game and changed all this, then it's a cryptic caused change, and not a player/community caused one, which is in my opinion something that should never mix, either make something 100% Community, or 100% Developer controlled. wouldn't you people chuck a massive spaz if someone in cryptic just started selling Therakiel's Sword or all the new boss costumes for 1G each when Community Market value ranges close to 3k on average? or they started telling people, they aren't allowed to sell it for under 5k. I don't see how this is much different in some terms, just a different structure for it is all.
What's the deal here? How do I recover my stolen money?
Did you check this in game, or on website? I'd suggest checking in game if you haven't already.. then send a ticket if still nothing. If the points you had were from actually spending real money, you can try asking for an audit on your purchase history to also prove your case.
I just checked the store - a Freeform slot costs 5000 Zen, which is exactly the same value (in USD) as 4000 CP - that is to say, $50 US, which used to buy 4000 CP, and now buys 5000 Z. Same thing.
Now, if you have to grind more Q in order to swap it in the Exchange for the Zen needed for the slot, that's a matter of valuation in the Exchange. And this is not the doing of either Cryptic or PWE. It is not inherent in the change in currency, merely in the nature of a floating exchange.
Really, I can't think of any way to be any more plain. The cost in currency is exactly the same after the change as before. For a long time, CP was going for about 180 Q or so; in the equivalent exchange in STO, Dilithium was trading at around 250 per point of CP. This was a matter of what people were willing to pay, not anything to do with any moves made by the company.
I know it's fun to blame everything that goes awry with our own plans on PWE, but in this particular case, they are innocent. For a change.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Just because your fellow players are using the confusion to ramp up the exchange rate does not make it Cryptic's or PWE's fault. And it isn't some vast conspiracy to rip people off. If you want ripoffs the grab bags are the place to look. This is just the kind of thing that always happens when there is a change in a player run economy. The same kind of nonsense happens in the auction house all the time.
And i don't know how to make it any more plain for you.
Do your own damned math then.
Calculate the minimum price of 50 q per CP for a FF slot, at 4000, and compare it to 50 for 1 zen at 5000 for the ff slot. there's definately a rise there.
Then, check the same thing for the maximum price of 500 q to 1 CP for the price of 4000, compared to zen at 5000.
For the last time, OBVIOUSLY, players will decide their own prices. I know this, i've said it over 1000 times, it's not relevant to what i am actually saying.
If you somehow think that 2,500,000 Questionite at the max price is 100% equal to 2,000,000 Then this simply proves the OP's statement about certain people's reading and math skills.
I'm not arguing that players should lower their price, i don't care about that side of, but just because it may seem like it's a factor because of the topic, doesn't mean it's actually a valid factor of the topic.
ALl i am saying, which i've said a lot now, is that there is a definate shift in the totals of minimum and the maximum price range, obviously no one will ever seriously be able to get 5000 Zen for 50 Q each, because that's unrealistic, however it will be possible about the extra 500k Q put on the top at 500 per zen, but you're ignoring that because for some reason you seem to think the minimum/maximum price range totals going up by 50k-500k has obviously a player caused issue, and not a scaling issue when cryptic converted CP to zen.
I get it, you seem to think i'm complaining abou the player price of Zen for 200 Q atm, honestly, i don't care, heck, just as long as the price range is re-scaled to how it was before, i'd be willing to let the price remain at 200 untill it goes up or down, why you ask? Because that's something i'm not arguing or caring about
And now it's not the math skills that are bad, but the critical thinking skills. Once again, CRYPTIC AND PWE HAVE NO INTERACTION WITH THE QUESTIONITE EXCHANGE BEYOND SETTING A MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM PRICE PER POINT
"The maximum" is relatively meaningless. It's not going to become meaningful for years, for it to really have an impact there would have to be substantial inflation of Q on the market (more than twice the current supply). Likewise, the minimum is relatively irrelevant. Before the conversion the price of 1 CP floated around 180-200. At this price, 1 ZEN would be around 150-160. The 25% increase in Q prices is solely due to sellers seeing what they can get away with and buyers not giving a ****. Either way the price is floating right in the middle of the minimum and maximum, and those points aren't likely to make significant, or any impact until prices trend so far towards one end that they actually bump up against them.
You're basically arguing about something that is wholly irrelevant, and indeed, not likely to be relevant for several years.
They don't need to touch the price range because the prices aren't anywhere near either limit, nor likely to trend overmuch in either direction.
BTW, just logged into STO to check it out - Dilithium is selling for a minimum of 281 per point of Zen right now.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I never said the player decided prices were cryptics' fault, i'm merely pointing out, there's still been an oversight in the conversion. All i'm saying is, the price range was set based on CP, not zen, with this conversion, it's only fair to want to the re-balance the boundaries, because they still have an added Q total to items at those limites, that's all.
So you're arguing, even though it's obviously cause a degree of scaling, it doesn't matter because it's not currently near that mark? So what would you say if it did reach that price then? "Oh, i was agasint a re-balance before because ti was never near it, but now that is it, clearly it shoudl be looked at" or "Oh i know i said that, and now that it's near the price, i'm still going to say no just because"
either way, what's wrong with doing it now then if not later? or why the sudden change of mind, or woudl you be one of those people trying to sell for the max and make a profit? But if you're going to argue, cryptic are allowed to change prices as they see fit, how about if they change it to the max is 100, would you protest then? it is their game after all, you have no right to rage about their choices in changing the price limits. It's not a factor of cryptic changed these values, but a case of they changed somethign else and these values do not reflect on those changes. pointing it out to have it looked at isn't the same as demanding they change it, but an attempt to have them notice the problem if they hhaven't already, and adjust it unless they actually DECIDE not to. So put those critical thinking skills to that.
I'm not getting pissy, i'm just pointing out the fact, no need to be afriad to admit you're wrong
it's actually very easy to find, go read the release article about the exchange, it will specify the range, as well as in game, try to buy/sell 1 zen for 49 or 501 if that fails, try 50 or 500, you will see a sudden difference.
This is true, but not particularly relevant as at no point have exchange rates been at either max or minimum of the range (nor are they likely to ever be) and there is plenty of room in between those limits to cover the adjustment so that normal market conditions can allow supply and demand to determine the appropriate exchange rate.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If it's not relevant, then why is everyone jumping down my throat about pointing this out, and against the idea of wanting Cryptic to at least re-balance those limits?
If those people are going to argue it's a moot point for me to point out, then it's a moot point for them to jump down my throat =\
And don't take that the wrong way in regards to you saying it's moot, you atleast show you acknowledge the point, without overall arguing strongly against it.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I don't think it's so much a refuse to understand, but a general refusal to be corrected.
Have you ever had a time when someone corrected you on something and you felt at least a little bit cut off, blew the person off, moved on content in the knowledge that you were correct the whole time, but then later on got to thinking about it and realized they were correct? Or have you ever had a conversation with someone where they were surprised you changed your mind on something because you seemed so adamant before?
That's what I think is going on here, only possibly without the whole changing of the mind later thing. That might still yet happen, but many times people just flat out refuse to admit they could even possibly be wrong. Heck, there's even people going around the country doing self help seminars where they tell people to never admit being wrong under any circumstances, because it's a sign of weakness...
In my opinion, I think it's a sign of weakness to refuse to admit that one could be wrong.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
It's a lost cause at this point.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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At this point both sides are doing the equivalent of pointing out that the sky is blue, water is wet, and kittens are cute. You say that the upper and lower limit in the Q exchange were balanced around the original value of a single unit of CP rather than the value of Zen. Absolutely true, but no more relevant to the game than the fact that water is wet since the upper and lower limits are never actually used. Others point out that the actual exchange rate is determined by players, not Cryptic, which is no more relevant to your point than the fact that the sky is (often) blue.
So we have someone raising a point that is irrelevant to the game and others attempting to counter it with information that is irrelevant to the point.
Business as usual.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
So my points are only invalid at this time simply because the player value of zen isn't at this number?
I believe that makes it still valid, as people imply, my point is invalid simply because it's not anywhere near those limits, meaning that if it ever does, it will instantly validate my points, and thus warrant it being looked at.
That's like someone knowing there's a bomb in a building, and trying to tell officials, but they dismiss it saying "it doesn't matter, it hasn't come anywhere near it's set time, so we'll worry about it later, or not at all"
If you know something is off, the fact that it's not in the opinion of ever reaching that parameter is no excuse to ignore it.
Nothing is off. The players control the Q market. End of story. Sorry you feel cheated, but markets ebb and flow all the time.
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And i'm sorry you don't seem to comprehend what i'm actually saying, if you think i "feel cheated"
"nothing is off" except, i just pointed out the 50k-500k range difference, and it's "not off"
If you don't want the range re-balanced, just say so, but don't troll and argue it's not off, when it actually is.
This isn't anywhere near a market crisis. It's no where near a complete catastrophe to illicit a "bomb".
If you think the inflation is insane, did you not see how high it jumped during the sale recently?
If you don't like the conversion rates, don't convert. The only reason they're at their level now is because other people are content. One really should be grateful that they've risen as slow as they have considering you can get a lot more with currency than you can with q.
There is no 50k-500k difference. This is again you failing to understand the nature of the argument. You are now just arguing to argue. Because it isn't off. You just want to proclaim it unfair, well sorry, they can't control what players do, and them changing the top and bottom value isn't going to change how much players decide their CP/Zen is worth in Q.
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Yes there is. If you knew math, you would understand this simple mathematical process.
Let's do a short math lesson comparing values, of both CP and Zen, to what it would cost at the minimum and maximum conversion values to buy one FF slot, at both the previous CP price of 4,000 compared to the Zen value of 5,000
FF slot at minimum Q value for 4,000 CP:
50 * 4,000 = 200,000
FF slot at maximum Q value for 4,000 CP:
500 * 4,000 = 2,000,000
FF slot at minimum Q value for 5,000 Zen:
50 * 5,000 = 250,000
FF slot at maximum Q value for 5,000 Zen:
500 * 5,000 = 2,500,000
As you see, there IS a 50k total added to the top of the minimum, and 500k to the top of the maximum values, hence, they have gone up 50k -500k to the min/max
I'm not failing to understand, you are. Or you're just refusing to admit being wrong.
No i'm not, actually. But i guess you would just see this as arguing.
Yes it is. I just pointed out in basic math why it's off.
This sentence here is why you fail to understand. Seriously, how many times must i say, I am well aware the fact players will decide what price to buy/sell things. Even if Cryptic do re-balance the min/max price values, it won't change the current going price, so stop using that as your arguing point. Did i say it's unfair? no, i simply point out, they still, WHETHER INTENDED OR NOT, have actually caused a shift in the total min/max price range.
and yet all i get from people are "no, it's not different at all, 200k and 250k is exactly identical, so it's not different, the same with 2million and 2.5million are identical, i don't know what you're talking about!"
I didn't say this was anywhere near a crisis, again, another example of someone reads a post, and think "He's pointing out a difference in the system, clearly he's just crying over having to pay more, so obv all he says is wrong, oh he said 2 + 2 = 4, obviously it's not 4 then."
I'm not delusional, obviously, even if this was re-scaled to fit zen at the same ratio, people would still sell at the price it's at now, duh, they did it even when the conversion took place, because it's obvious in human nature not to go down from the last price they remember, even if there's more now.
My bomb analogy was simply to point out a flaw in the argument "well it hasn't happened yet so it's no big deal"
1) Nothing is off here. The point you are arguing has no consequences or effect.
2) Using your bomb analogy: Its more like saying that my house has never been bombed, there is no threat of a bomb there now, the likelihood of it ever being bombed is so statistically close to being zero that it might as well be zero, and yet arguing that we need to have it swept by the bomb squad.
It is more likely that any innocuous given home in a normally safe neighborhood will be bombed at random than that the Q exchange will hit, let alone stick at, either end of the range.
What happens as it approaches the minimum ?
Demand goes up, driving the price up as well.
What happens as it approaches the maximum ?
Demand goes down, driving the price down as well.
I suppose, technically, if nearly everyone stopped playing the game normal market forces would become sufficiently weak to throw this off.
Then again, if you, and maybe one or two other people, are the only one playing the game, you'll have a lot more to worry about than teh exchange rate of Questionite (and would face an insufficient supply of Zen for the exchange rate to matter anyway.)
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If I had any confidence in Cryptic's thoroughness, I might assume that they had looked at the min/max values and decided to leave them alone. I find it all too easy to believe that a short-handed dev team missed that point. Bringing it to their attention does no harm. However, doing so in this thread might be a mistake, as the OP was not about the min/max rates, but about the current price.
Apropos of nothing, does anyone know the current exchange rate on STO? Iirc, the CP-->Dilithium rate got very near, if not at, the max at one time.
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You can keep trying to say Cryptic owes you something, they don't. This is economics, and trying to throw math around like it means something isn't going to change what the market feels like.
In short, you are making up facts because you simply think you are self entitled to something. You are not.
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Actually, it is crying and whining. He wants Cryptic to force players to change how they value their Zen on the market. The market is constantly shifting in price, and he wants people to shift for him, or he wants Cryptic to come in and force a price change. It isn't going to happen.
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