DW offers excellent utility and damage for what it does, yes. So does DC. So does Ego Annihilation/Lance (with appropriate powers). So does Massacre.
I'd go on, but the issue isn't DW. DW is simply the most popular melee spike move available by virtue of dual blades being relatively easy to build around. Many single-target moves become more powerful when you stack the appropriate buffs and control effects; DW is no exception.
Look, I used to hate DW with the unbridled fire of a binary star, too. Then I fought more of the "vets" and began to see other powers that did the job as well or better. DW is merely symptomatic of the mechanics that make PvP what it is now; nerfing it will not solve anything and will merely make people to switch to any of the other powers mentioned in this thread.
So what is the solution you offer? Cause no offense, I really am getting a "just shut up and take it or leave" vibe from the vets these days.
So what is the solution you offer? Cause no offense, I really am getting a "just shut up and take it or leave" vibe from the vets these days.
Campaign to get the stuff fixed that's actually causing the problems being complained about:
-Crowd control
-buff stacking (especially offensive buffs on top of defensive passives)
-opportunity costs of taking multiple attacks
-some sets having few or no good options (like Ice) while other sets have a ton of great options leading to a devastating attack (DW, TK Blades, Infernal, etc). I'd vote more on the "buff the underperformers" side, but that's me
-Ridiculously buffed tanks being so hard to kill that any "offense" build has to be an all-out, balls-to-the-wall setup to do anything against them. Which means weaker tanks get slaughtered, and squishies...are still playing rocket tag like they always have been
As Potemkin pointed out, and as I mentioned, there are a lot of other attacks that do what DW does, or can do certain things better. Nerfing DW is just going to make those attacks come to the forefront, and some of those are a lot harder to counter (like Ebon Ruin, for instance...)
Giving support to mindless sensationalism does nothing to actually fix the underlying problems with PvP. It just pits the people who actually put in the effort to learn the current system against the person whining.
As Potemkin pointed out, and as I mentioned, there are a lot of other attacks that do what DW does, or can do certain things better. Nerfing DW is just going to make those attacks come to the forefront, and some of those are a lot harder to counter (like Ebon Ruin, for instance...)
then nerf it and let them. I mean heck, just rotating the op build of the month for variety's sake if anything would be nice. But seriously, they need to fix stacking, but as much as I'd like it, I'm not sure they'd risk the pve outcry for it.
It's the same in Tier 3 and 4 smart one, I personally tested it on the Public Test shard. Owned anyone I dueled at least twice in two hits. Teleported, targeted, nailed to the ground, stun, DW x2.
Every...
single...
time...
And I just maxed strength and dexterity with yellow gear.
Imo sounds like you were dueling training dummy type players.
Still talking about how Dragon wrath is OP? Might as well nerf Fall damage too since the only defense for that is to stack a certain stat that may not even help your build at all.
-DW isnt OP Damage penetration should be standard on DPS roles.
-Rush type buffs should be on every sets uber charge attacks.
-More Powers need the utility of DW.
We shouldnt be trying to make DW weaker, we should be trying to get all the broken, worthless, crap powers reworked with a spit polish so that so that when it comes to parallels there is no definite X>Y.
Still talking about how Dragon wrath is OP? Might as well nerf Fall damage too since the only defense for that is to stack a certain stat that may not even help your build at all.
-DW isnt OP Damage penetration should be standard on DPS roles.
-Rush type buffs should be on every sets uber charge attacks.
-More Powers need the utility of DW.
We shouldnt be trying to make DW weaker, we should be trying to get all the broken, worthless, crap powers reworked with a spit polish so that so that when it comes to parallels there is no definite X>Y.
But we can't really take more DPS output. I mean, with penetration no tanking would be possible-can you imagine lightning arc or force cascade penetrating defense too due to role? We'd all be avenger toons.
But we can't really take more DPS output. I mean, with penetration no tanking would be possible-can you imagine lightning arc or force cascade penetrating defense too due to role? We'd all be avenger toons.
Or the whiny tanks could get off their damned high-horse and accept that they should, occasionally, die. And use the length of time they live as an asset, instead of thinking that every time they die it's a horrible mishap that goes against the laws of the universe.
Some tanks are spoiled, whiny brats that have the game handed to them on a platter. They need to get over it.
Fun fact: League of Legends has an item that grants 40% defense penetration, is fairly gold efficient sitting at 2290G and is available to every physical damage dealer in the game. You can get additional penetration on top of this from other sources as well. Mages also have a similar item called Void Staff. These items are generally considered balanced at best.
Just thought I'd throw that out there while I'm passing by. You can now resume discussion of nerfing everything into mush.
Fun fact: League of Legends has an item that grants 40% defense penetration, is fairly gold efficient sitting at 2290G and is available to every physical damage dealer in the game. You can get additional penetration on top of this from other sources as well. Mages also have a similar item called Void Staff. These items are generally considered balanced at best.
Just thought I'd throw that out there while I'm passing by. You can now resume discussion of nerfing everything into mush.
Also notably, defenses are ridiculously easy to stack in league. Those items costs 2200, but a single chain vest costs 700, so its far easier to get better defenses than to deal decent damage.
Unfortunartely there is no early / mid / late game concept in champions, so our Ad carries stay weak and bruisers stay strong.
I have officially joined the DW op broken needs balancing team!
It is is just bad when your play some pvp matches the Qs are hitting good. Even getting several 5 vs 5. A fairly good mix of types of toons. A few FOTMs which is ok. I always try an FOTM to see if I like and can fit in my concept so I am cool with that.
Bunch of toons with powers from wind.
Then it happened. Snag snared rooted...900 damage...crap better heal and get away. What!! Snag snared rooted still got me. My heal not keeping up...they are winding...should I try and block (LOL). 1200 damage. Wait still have a tad of green..oh wait still being snagged snared rooted...1000 damge.
Then it happened. Snag snared rooted...900 damage...crap better heal and get away. What!! Snag snared rooted still got me. My heal not keeping up...they are winding...should I try and block (LOL). 1200 damage. Wait still have a tad of green..oh wait still being snagged snared rooted...1000 damge.
Pvp went down hill after that.
so, let's read that again... what led to defeat again? DW? naw... "Snag snared rooted..." "Snag snared rooted still got me." sounds more like if you hadn't been there you wouldn't have gotten hit. in fact, it sounds like Brawler had more to do with it than DW.
therefore, I propose we alter the course of this campaign. NERF PROTECTOR!!!!1 wait...
Add in knocked, stunned, knocked if you want to describe normal gameplay.
Under the circumstances you describe DW was not the culprit. It could have been Massacre, Demolish, Ego Blade Breach, Ego Blade Annihilation, Chainsaw Gauntlet, Dragon Claw, or almost any half-way decent attack.
1) Unless you were a defensive build DW's defense penetration didnt actually do much of anything for the attacker.
2) Self heals (as described in your scenario) should buy you a bit of time, not be capable of completely offsetting incoming damage for extended periods of time.
2) Self heals (as described in your scenario) should buy you a bit of time, not be capable of completely offsetting incoming damage for extended periods of time.
but, as you know, they often can.
look, you guys that are wanting to play unkillable, invincible builds, you're playing the wrong toon-type in this game. you wanna make a healer, a con/pre healer. (imo)
there are a few guys/gals out there that are bloody difficult to take down. for example: @mobscene, @kamokami, @titotito@Xeiros. you folks can probably think of others. send em a pm and get some basics if you're unfamiliar with bubble spam or ebon sigils and the like. also, keep in mind this is coming from a person that primarily plays glassy, flimsy, spiky builds that can usually get through a lot of that stuff (if it's not stacked too ridiculously atm ), so I don't recommend them lightly, although I haven't seen mobs in a long time *misses*
so, let's read that again... what led to defeat again? DW? naw... "Snag snared rooted..." "Snag snared rooted still got me." sounds more like if you hadn't been there you wouldn't have gotten hit. in fact, it sounds like Brawler had more to do with it than DW.
therefore, I propose we alter the course of this campaign. NERF PROTECTOR!!!!1 wait...
I guess I am going to have to make it official, I am now on the nerf snag held snare knocked up knocked down knock to band wagon....
If he says players will use the powers he's mentioned when DW is nerfed, the only possible solution is to nerf those powers as well.
There should be pvp restrictions on certain powers, so their usefulness is not hindered in pve.
This is actually one of the most constructive suggestion.
Powers with altered effects specifically for pvp circumstances.
Powers remain the same with the same effects and mechanics in pve but they have their effects adjusted for pvp.
Or the whiny tanks could get off their damned high-horse and accept that they should, occasionally, die. And use the length of time they live as an asset, instead of thinking that every time they die it's a horrible mishap that goes against the laws of the universe.
Some tanks are spoiled, whiny brats that have the game handed to them on a platter. They need to get over it.
Bollocks.
The tanks that "have the game handed to them on a platter" aren't much effected by DW anyway. Both Invuldodge and Defidodge builds wield enough shameless heals/defenses to bring down the effect of DW down to manageable levels, and at the same time, (in the majority of cases) being equipped with DW themselves, turns the fight into a straight-up "who can survive more DW hits" contest against any offensive type DW builds.
The supertanks generally deal a much lower damage than offensive DW builds, but also is able to cut down incoming DW damage dramatically, and therefore it turns into two different people stabbing each other with DW which does roughly similar damage to each other, except one of them is stacked up with huge amount of defenses and usually over 10k HP, while the other has at least 2~3k lower health and much weaker defenses.
This claim that "DW is needed to bring down supertanks", is, and has always been, a myth.
The people who actually suffer from DW are those using classic or lightly altered/customized tank builds, like Brou's classic Might or my own Might tank which willingly refuses the use of multi-layer defenses in respect to balance issues, and also in the spirit of good-will to keep the game fun by providing a reasonable chance for even other to be able to kill tanks like us, without having to rely on ridiculously overpowered damage buff stacking, or resorting to crapcheese builds. Ofcourse, with every passing day bringing in more and more cheese, its more and more turning into a lost cause, and the only thing left for people like us in PvP is self-pride of the fact that even still, we not going to use any FotM builds or OP powers we criticize with our own mouths.
A typical SS DEX/EGO-AoPM-FG-DW build which knocks up a 300 STR might toon every 3 seconds with very high probability, to stick in merely one or two full 1.8 sec charge DW while being totally incapacitated from the damned knock, that crits for over 3k a pop against 358 CON Defiance with around 17%~18% res per stack for a total of over 130% total resistance.. and simply bring down a 12k tank to less than half health in under 5 seconds since the beginning of the engagement - that's what DW does to anyone not going for the cheesey Invuldodge or Defidodge.
As a matter of fact the goddamned DW is actually one of the major reasons why people are tempted to lazily rely on a crap build like Invuldodge or Defidodge in the first place. Believe me, there are days where even my determination grows weak and I am seriously tempted to retcon into an Invuldodge or Defidodge. If someone as adamant as I am for the cause of balance gets that much temptation, its really no brainer as to what others would feel like when they've been crapped all over by DW.
You FGd and then get one-two shotted by DW while using a squishy, and then you are dead in 10 seconds by DW when using a normal, classic tank. Woop-dee-too, time to take the clone-train and join the ranks of losers who admit they can't PvP without a supertank.
Try using DW with anything besides Ego Storm or Force Geyser and you'll find it's not really overpowered. Strong? Yes, but not overpowerd. The problem isn't really DW. It's what players combine the power with that's an issue. There's not much you can really do about the problem itself. Not as long as freeform exists.
I have two 40's. One is a tank. The other is a DW user. If you're a tank, just get your health over 10k and stack defenses/heals wisely. If you're a DW user and don't want to be considered the "ultimate cheesefest", stay away from Ego Storm and/or Force Geyser.
Try using DW with anything besides Ego Storm or Force Geyser and you'll find it's not really overpowered. Strong? Yes, but not overpowerd. The problem isn't really DW. It's what players combine the power with that's an issue. There's not much you can really do about the problem itself. Not as long as freeform exists.
I have two 40's. One is a tank. The other is a DW user. If you're a tank, just get your health over 10k and stack defenses/heals wisely. If you're a DW user and don't want to be considered the "ultimate cheesefest", stay away from Ego Storm and/or Force Geyser.
i dont use holds or fg on my dw toon, and yet get caled a n00b and what not just cause of dw to the point i almoast stoped playing that char, and on the oher hand i hear people caling some fg dw ego storm users prefessionals(i wont name names... and im not on the pvp scene long enough to know who the vets/pros are) people have just learned to hate dragons wrath... i only do pvp with 3 toons at t4 a healer, the said dw user and a might tank... neither of them has a problem with dw.... like you said and Talesian mentioned the problem is the fact that they can make you helples for the amount of time that they need to kill you... wich is imo stupid... and even tho i use dw i agree that its damage penetration could get a bit toned down... from say 50% to the amount of damage bonus that tigers courage provides(max of 30%) or even make it exclusive to tigers courage since in most cases the damage of rank 3 is superior to tigers courage and rank 2
Try using DW with anything besides Ego Storm or Force Geyser and you'll find it's not really overpowered. Strong? Yes, but not overpowerd. The problem isn't really DW. It's what players combine the power with that's an issue. There's not much you can really do about the problem itself. Not as long as freeform exists.
I have two 40's. One is a tank. The other is a DW user. If you're a tank, just get your health over 10k and stack defenses/heals wisely. If you're a DW user and don't want to be considered the "ultimate cheesefest", stay away from Ego Storm and/or Force Geyser.
I dont agree. Go to the thread in my signature, freeform existing is a crutch excuse to let players have thier way.
freeform existing is a crutch excuse to let players have thier way.
Agreed.
How many times have I seen those words, "Nice freeform build, I'm an AT. You know I'm better because I'm not using all those powers like you are. Basically you suck." ?
Agreed.
How many times have I seen those words, "Nice freeform build, I'm an AT. You know I'm better because I'm not using all those powers like you are. Basically you suck." ?
honestly 90% of the time when its a FF vs an AT, skill does not effect the outtcome
Agreed.
How many times have I seen those words, "Nice freeform build, I'm an AT. You know I'm better because I'm not using all those powers like you are. Basically you suck." ?
Better? No. But well, you might be a bit sorry inside to use this mean Force Geyser on that Single Blade AT. Many of them live it well, others.. well, they'd tend to rely on a Soldier AT to do anything.
I dont agree. Go to the thread in my signature, freeform existing is a crutch excuse to let players have thier way.
Darn skippy. Many of us paid for the game before the title of 'freeform' was even thought up, when the entire game was just that. It is only as of recent, as an afterthought, when they decided to create ATs.
When I'm on any of my ATs and I get challenged by an FF, I generally look at their passive and buffs first to determine what they are, and if they're a typical PvP build I refuse. Last thing I wanna do on my Soldier is waste time hitting a supertank with 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-CRITICAL 2-1-1-1-1 Assault Rifle maintains and struggling to get far away enough to Sniper Rifle him for an astounding dodged 1k, which is probably instantly healed up with heal drones/Conviction/BCR.
How do you even dodge a Sniper Rifle shot? Seriously. MY IMMERSION
ATs don't really have a right to complain about FF builds, imo, especially if the AT started a duel in the first place. FFs should expect to catch from flak from ATs, however, if the FF starts the duel and proceeds to win in one easy combo to add to their title collection. I usually just say something along the lines of 'typical pvp build, lolz~', recover and proceed to make up for my loss in Stronghold Unrestricted.
Try using DW with anything besides Ego Storm or Force Geyser and you'll find it's not really overpowered. Strong? Yes, but not overpowerd. The problem isn't really DW. It's what players combine the power with that's an issue. There's not much you can really do about the problem itself. Not as long as freeform exists.
I have two 40's. One is a tank. The other is a DW user. If you're a tank, just get your health over 10k and stack defenses/heals wisely. If you're a DW user and don't want to be considered the "ultimate cheesefest", stay away from Ego Storm and/or Force Geyser.
I dont agree. Go to the thread in my signature, freeform existing is a crutch excuse to let players have thier way.
Original quote^
Freeform is a product to sell that differentiates this game from many (most) others. What does CO have without it ?
Darn skippy. Many of us paid for the game before the title of 'freeform' was even thought up, when the entire game was just that. It is only as of recent, as an afterthought, when they decided to create ATs.
You gotta pay to play sometimes. Get gold or go home <or alternatively whine to use Freeformers>. Stop trolling us who paid.
1. I never said that CO should get rid of freeform, its the games largest selling point.
2. I paid for this game, LTS bud (but this account is silver, the account i play under is phantom464).
3. I see you changed my name in the quote to that other guy, im not him.
Now I debate ALOT with everyone i ever meet, it how i get a feel for them. So i can tell when people are selectively reading/cherry picking my words and using them out of context. If you arent aware you are doing right now. Your 3 responses mean nothing because they are pretty much logical fallacy.
In context you can see that my response doesnt imply that i think Freeform is bad or should leave. Nothing of the sort. What it says is that saying you cant balance freeform is a bull**** excuse for players unwilling to have anything taken from them.
There are too many powers and combinations to try and selectively nerf them all which is why the axe should go to the roles as the primary balance mechanic of CO there are only 5 which is easy to balance compared to 15+ power sets.
But we can't really take more DPS output. I mean, with penetration no tanking would be possible-can you imagine lightning arc or force cascade penetrating defense too due to role? We'd all be avenger toons.
The penetration wount be that Drastic, like an innate 10%-20% scaled with SS to a maximum of 35%.
If a "tank" cant handle 1/3 of thier defense being breached then they suck something fierce.
Freeform is a product to sell that differentiates this game from many (most) others. What does CO have without it ?
What Darkblade is saying, is that the funky irony bestowed on to this world of PvP by that very concept of "Free Form" character building, is the tendency of people to commit variety suicide and just blindly stick to a single, most popular, and "efficient" build.
Thus, in most cases the concept of free-form toon building is actually nothing but a clever fantasy, and the reality is that we might as well think people are building an AT named "Cheese", with the skill choices going... Quarry or AoPM... FG... Lunge... DW or DC... Msterful Dodge... BCR@RR... etc..
When you see something as funky as the people being allowed to build what they want, and yet in the end everyone ends up the same.. then it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out something is wrong.
If, as you say, everyone is playing the same build then what's the difference between what there is now and forcing everyone to play the same build? (in other words - not free-form).
If, as you say, everyone is playing the same build then what's the difference between what there is now and forcing everyone to play the same build? (in other words - not free-form).
/facepalm
How would his suggestion force ppl to play same build??
People already play the same builds already, though!
The Melee Oneshotter (Binding of Aratron, Ego Storm, Dragon's X, Force Geyser)
The Ranged Murderer (Binding of Aratron, Ice Cage, Ascension, Smoke Grenade, PBR (or any other high damage ranged maintain move), Force Geyser)
The Big Healer Target (Palliate for SH, double bubbles, Conviction + Iniquity)
It's actually REFRESHING to see a TK Blader in SH and get one shotted by them instead. I don't know why either! It isn't like it's that much harder to do. (TK Maelstrom + TK Annihilation) TK Lancers are a breath of fresh air too.
maybe they need to booste munitions...who would really bring a "knife" to a "gun" fight
Dear God, change this font color.
It's a known fact that the devs primarily balance around PvE DPE (and to a lesser extent DPS). Many powers and powersets have good DPS and DPE. It's really just the proliferation of Invul and/or IDF that puts a huge damper on this. I do believe that Muni is capable of doing well in PvP. My first PvP character started off as Gatling+2GM KM.
It's a known fact that the devs primarily balance around PvE DPE (and to a lesser extent DPS). Many powers and powersets have good DPS and DPE. It's really just the proliferation of Invul and/or IDF that puts a huge damper on this. I do believe that Muni is capable of doing well in PvP. My first PvP character started off as Gatling+2GM KM.
yup munition isn't meant for PvP unless you're someone like Bunkers (a really good munition toon i have met before):D
Is this power ever gonna get a balance pass? It just seems that besides most of the same powers that most players pick, this one in particular is picked overall the most because it is the bread and butter of all abilities. Tanks are useless because of it and it's either pick this ability for the most part or get screwed fast.
I really wish most of the powers in this game would define a character instead of 90% of the player base taking the same exact powers. To me it seems to be 90% build 10% skill.
Anyways I'm guessing PvP is all about DPS and powers rather than skill and flavor. That's why I don't understand why tanks are taking 3k-6k per attack with DW and non-tanks take bearly anymore damage.
But whatever it's just very frustrating being out-tanked by a non-tank despite my best efforts.
Something is not right when a fully ranked AR blasting a Dw as it closes in fully charged blue bar multiple times and the Dw in 2 swings wins...
Something is not right when a fully charged AR is blasting a way at the fatty zombie in ZA and you have to recharge and blast away again and sometimes again. But the Dw runs up and takes down the fatty zombie beside the one your blasting...and then does the finishing blow on your target.
1. Need more powers like this to balance concepts. Demolish can use an advantage similar to this that replaces it's debuffing, Power Armor Shoulder Launcher can get a buff on the advantage similar to this and maybe an energy projection attack can also get in on this.
2. The penetration needs to be reduced down to 25-30% or work by stacks of 5 each reducing resistances down by 10%.
3. It shouldn't just penetrate resistance, it should work on dodge/avoidance and absorption too so resistance isn't so neglected.
DW is not unbalanced, ONLY tanks tan cry about DW ( like 50 % of you now are doing ) , vs non tanks DU / DC are like 40% beter.
Also atm there is a lack of defiance tanks in CO so DW isnt even needed .
Just becouse you dont know how to fight mele glass cannons, no need to cry about it on forums, im guesing 30% of you also think ego storm needs balance too, but that just shows how long and how good are you in PVP ^_^
1. Need more powers like this to balance concepts. Demolish can use an advantage similar to this that replaces it's debuffing, Power Armor Shoulder Launcher can get a buff on the advantage similar to this and maybe an energy projection attack can also get in on this.
2. The penetration needs to be reduced down to 25-30% or work by stacks of 5 each reducing resistances down by 10%.
3. It shouldn't just penetrate resistance, it should work on dodge/avoidance and absorption too so resistance isn't so neglected.
Exactly, more powers with resistance penetration mean more options, more choices and less cloned DWers... and maybe even more themed toons in pvp? who knows? :rolleyes:
DW is not unbalanced, ONLY tanks tan cry about DW ( like 50 % of you now are doing ) , vs non tanks DU / DC are like 40% beter.
At least classic style Defiance tanks complaining about the bullshi* penetration level of DW is a lot easier to understand and sympathize with, than compared to an Inuvldodge cheese build complaining about poison.
Also atm there is a lack of defiance tanks in CO so DW isnt even needed .
And guess why Defiance-based tanks are calling it quits, and most every cheese simply flowed down to Invuldodge builds.
Just becouse you dont know how to fight mele glass cannons, no need to cry about it on forums, im guesing 30% of you also think ego storm needs balance too, but that just shows how long and how good are you in PVP ^_^
And I'm guessing 100% of you never really tried stepping out of that easymode to face DW the threat. It's quite really easy to claim DW's nothing special, when you are an Invuldodger. Really.
I recommend you try PvP with a non-multi-layer defense toon, without FG, without DW or DC... and then go up against the typical SS EGO/DEX AoPM DW/DC toon with Force Gaystuff pumping out of them annoying fingersnaps every 3 seconds.
Try that, and then come tell us that a power that lands a 3.5k critical by smashing through a 170% resistance is not a problem.
I'm pretty sure you'll understand why pure defiance builds "crying" about DW makes much more sense than a crapcheese Invuldodge crying about deadly poison.
lol
only one of my toons is INV/Dodge build ( need it for SL farm ) he doesnt even have DW , and from what i notised Ranged > Mele
so sorry to say but you failed dear
and also if realy think that most are ego/dex then you realy dunno anything about pvp =p
also Inv/Dodge is not cheesy , you jut dont know how do kill them sweety ^^
And one more think with my defiance tank i kill lots of DW builds so again , if you think you can just take defiance , mass heals and stand still and think you can survive everything then ppl like that should realy stay out of PVP .
Comments
So what is the solution you offer? Cause no offense, I really am getting a "just shut up and take it or leave" vibe from the vets these days.
If he says players will use the powers he's mentioned when DW is nerfed, the only possible solution is to nerf those powers as well.
There should be pvp restrictions on certain powers, so their usefulness is not hindered in pve.
Campaign to get the stuff fixed that's actually causing the problems being complained about:
-Crowd control
-buff stacking (especially offensive buffs on top of defensive passives)
-opportunity costs of taking multiple attacks
-some sets having few or no good options (like Ice) while other sets have a ton of great options leading to a devastating attack (DW, TK Blades, Infernal, etc). I'd vote more on the "buff the underperformers" side, but that's me
-Ridiculously buffed tanks being so hard to kill that any "offense" build has to be an all-out, balls-to-the-wall setup to do anything against them. Which means weaker tanks get slaughtered, and squishies...are still playing rocket tag like they always have been
As Potemkin pointed out, and as I mentioned, there are a lot of other attacks that do what DW does, or can do certain things better. Nerfing DW is just going to make those attacks come to the forefront, and some of those are a lot harder to counter (like Ebon Ruin, for instance...)
Giving support to mindless sensationalism does nothing to actually fix the underlying problems with PvP. It just pits the people who actually put in the effort to learn the current system against the person whining.
Forums aren't for solutions, they are for opinions, much the same goes for YOUR opinion that DW is OP.
I don't use DW... It's a boring attack with boring tactics. What's the big deal about DW?
then nerf it and let them. I mean heck, just rotating the op build of the month for variety's sake if anything would be nice. But seriously, they need to fix stacking, but as much as I'd like it, I'm not sure they'd risk the pve outcry for it.
Imo sounds like you were dueling training dummy type players.
-DW isnt OP Damage penetration should be standard on DPS roles.
-Rush type buffs should be on every sets uber charge attacks.
-More Powers need the utility of DW.
We shouldnt be trying to make DW weaker, we should be trying to get all the broken, worthless, crap powers reworked with a spit polish so that so that when it comes to parallels there is no definite X>Y.
But we can't really take more DPS output. I mean, with penetration no tanking would be possible-can you imagine lightning arc or force cascade penetrating defense too due to role? We'd all be avenger toons.
Or the whiny tanks could get off their damned high-horse and accept that they should, occasionally, die. And use the length of time they live as an asset, instead of thinking that every time they die it's a horrible mishap that goes against the laws of the universe.
Some tanks are spoiled, whiny brats that have the game handed to them on a platter. They need to get over it.
Minor adjustment.
Just thought I'd throw that out there while I'm passing by. You can now resume discussion of nerfing everything into mush.
Thank you. I'm letting RL drama (from an entirely different source, on an entirely different subject) bleed into my forum drama, and that's messy.
Unfortunartely there is no early / mid / late game concept in champions, so our Ad carries stay weak and bruisers stay strong.
It is is just bad when your play some pvp matches the Qs are hitting good. Even getting several 5 vs 5. A fairly good mix of types of toons. A few FOTMs which is ok. I always try an FOTM to see if I like and can fit in my concept so I am cool with that.
Bunch of toons with powers from wind.
Then it happened. Snag snared rooted...900 damage...crap better heal and get away. What!! Snag snared rooted still got me. My heal not keeping up...they are winding...should I try and block (LOL). 1200 damage. Wait still have a tad of green..oh wait still being snagged snared rooted...1000 damge.
Pvp went down hill after that.
so, let's read that again... what led to defeat again? DW? naw... "Snag snared rooted..." "Snag snared rooted still got me." sounds more like if you hadn't been there you wouldn't have gotten hit. in fact, it sounds like Brawler had more to do with it than DW.
therefore, I propose we alter the course of this campaign. NERF PROTECTOR!!!!1 wait...
Add in knocked, stunned, knocked if you want to describe normal gameplay.
Under the circumstances you describe DW was not the culprit. It could have been Massacre, Demolish, Ego Blade Breach, Ego Blade Annihilation, Chainsaw Gauntlet, Dragon Claw, or almost any half-way decent attack.
1) Unless you were a defensive build DW's defense penetration didnt actually do much of anything for the attacker.
2) Self heals (as described in your scenario) should buy you a bit of time, not be capable of completely offsetting incoming damage for extended periods of time.
but, as you know, they often can.
look, you guys that are wanting to play unkillable, invincible builds, you're playing the wrong toon-type in this game. you wanna make a healer, a con/pre healer. (imo)
there are a few guys/gals out there that are bloody difficult to take down. for example: @mobscene, @kamokami, @titotito @Xeiros. you folks can probably think of others. send em a pm and get some basics if you're unfamiliar with bubble spam or ebon sigils and the like. also, keep in mind this is coming from a person that primarily plays glassy, flimsy, spiky builds that can usually get through a lot of that stuff (if it's not stacked too ridiculously atm
I guess I am going to have to make it official, I am now on the nerf snag held snare knocked up knocked down knock to band wagon....
This is actually one of the most constructive suggestion.
Powers with altered effects specifically for pvp circumstances.
Powers remain the same with the same effects and mechanics in pve but they have their effects adjusted for pvp.
Bollocks.
The tanks that "have the game handed to them on a platter" aren't much effected by DW anyway. Both Invuldodge and Defidodge builds wield enough shameless heals/defenses to bring down the effect of DW down to manageable levels, and at the same time, (in the majority of cases) being equipped with DW themselves, turns the fight into a straight-up "who can survive more DW hits" contest against any offensive type DW builds.
The supertanks generally deal a much lower damage than offensive DW builds, but also is able to cut down incoming DW damage dramatically, and therefore it turns into two different people stabbing each other with DW which does roughly similar damage to each other, except one of them is stacked up with huge amount of defenses and usually over 10k HP, while the other has at least 2~3k lower health and much weaker defenses.
This claim that "DW is needed to bring down supertanks", is, and has always been, a myth.
The people who actually suffer from DW are those using classic or lightly altered/customized tank builds, like Brou's classic Might or my own Might tank which willingly refuses the use of multi-layer defenses in respect to balance issues, and also in the spirit of good-will to keep the game fun by providing a reasonable chance for even other to be able to kill tanks like us, without having to rely on ridiculously overpowered damage buff stacking, or resorting to crapcheese builds. Ofcourse, with every passing day bringing in more and more cheese, its more and more turning into a lost cause, and the only thing left for people like us in PvP is self-pride of the fact that even still, we not going to use any FotM builds or OP powers we criticize with our own mouths.
A typical SS DEX/EGO-AoPM-FG-DW build which knocks up a 300 STR might toon every 3 seconds with very high probability, to stick in merely one or two full 1.8 sec charge DW while being totally incapacitated from the damned knock, that crits for over 3k a pop against 358 CON Defiance with around 17%~18% res per stack for a total of over 130% total resistance.. and simply bring down a 12k tank to less than half health in under 5 seconds since the beginning of the engagement - that's what DW does to anyone not going for the cheesey Invuldodge or Defidodge.
As a matter of fact the goddamned DW is actually one of the major reasons why people are tempted to lazily rely on a crap build like Invuldodge or Defidodge in the first place. Believe me, there are days where even my determination grows weak and I am seriously tempted to retcon into an Invuldodge or Defidodge. If someone as adamant as I am for the cause of balance gets that much temptation, its really no brainer as to what others would feel like when they've been crapped all over by DW.
You FGd and then get one-two shotted by DW while using a squishy, and then you are dead in 10 seconds by DW when using a normal, classic tank. Woop-dee-too, time to take the clone-train and join the ranks of losers who admit they can't PvP without a supertank.
I have two 40's. One is a tank. The other is a DW user. If you're a tank, just get your health over 10k and stack defenses/heals wisely. If you're a DW user and don't want to be considered the "ultimate cheesefest", stay away from Ego Storm and/or Force Geyser.
i dont use holds or fg on my dw toon, and yet get caled a n00b and what not just cause of dw to the point i almoast stoped playing that char, and on the oher hand i hear people caling some fg dw ego storm users prefessionals(i wont name names... and im not on the pvp scene long enough to know who the vets/pros are) people have just learned to hate dragons wrath... i only do pvp with 3 toons at t4 a healer, the said dw user and a might tank... neither of them has a problem with dw.... like you said and Talesian mentioned the problem is the fact that they can make you helples for the amount of time that they need to kill you... wich is imo stupid... and even tho i use dw i agree that its damage penetration could get a bit toned down... from say 50% to the amount of damage bonus that tigers courage provides(max of 30%) or even make it exclusive to tigers courage since in most cases the damage of rank 3 is superior to tigers courage and rank 2
Understood. I meant that it wouldnt do as much as it would against a tankish character. That is why I said, "much," rather than, "anything."
But thank you for clarifying. I dont want to misrepresent the details here.
I dont agree. Go to the thread in my signature, freeform existing is a crutch excuse to let players have thier way.
Agreed.
How many times have I seen those words, "Nice freeform build, I'm an AT. You know I'm better because I'm not using all those powers like you are. Basically you suck." ?
honestly 90% of the time when its a FF vs an AT, skill does not effect the outtcome
Better? No. But well, you might be a bit sorry inside to use this mean Force Geyser on that Single Blade AT. Many of them live it well, others.. well, they'd tend to rely on a Soldier AT to do anything.
ATs are a crutch excuse to let people who don't pay their dues upfront to feel entitled to more than they deserve.
Freeform is a product to sell that differentiates this game from many (most) others. What does CO have without it ?
Darn skippy. Many of us paid for the game before the title of 'freeform' was even thought up, when the entire game was just that. It is only as of recent, as an afterthought, when they decided to create ATs.
You gotta pay to play sometimes. Get gold or go home <or alternatively whine to use Freeformers>. Stop trolling us who paid.
How do you even dodge a Sniper Rifle shot? Seriously. MY IMMERSION
ATs don't really have a right to complain about FF builds, imo, especially if the AT started a duel in the first place. FFs should expect to catch from flak from ATs, however, if the FF starts the duel and proceeds to win in one easy combo to add to their title collection. I usually just say something along the lines of 'typical pvp build, lolz~', recover and proceed to make up for my loss in Stronghold Unrestricted.
i think he is doing the opposite of trolling people who paid...
Original quote^
1. I never said that CO should get rid of freeform, its the games largest selling point.
2. I paid for this game, LTS bud (but this account is silver, the account i play under is phantom464).
3. I see you changed my name in the quote to that other guy, im not him.
Now I debate ALOT with everyone i ever meet, it how i get a feel for them. So i can tell when people are selectively reading/cherry picking my words and using them out of context. If you arent aware you are doing right now. Your 3 responses mean nothing because they are pretty much logical fallacy.
In context you can see that my response doesnt imply that i think Freeform is bad or should leave. Nothing of the sort. What it says is that saying you cant balance freeform is a bull**** excuse for players unwilling to have anything taken from them.
There are too many powers and combinations to try and selectively nerf them all which is why the axe should go to the roles as the primary balance mechanic of CO there are only 5 which is easy to balance compared to 15+ power sets.
He gets it.
The penetration wount be that Drastic, like an innate 10%-20% scaled with SS to a maximum of 35%.
If a "tank" cant handle 1/3 of thier defense being breached then they suck something fierce.
What Darkblade is saying, is that the funky irony bestowed on to this world of PvP by that very concept of "Free Form" character building, is the tendency of people to commit variety suicide and just blindly stick to a single, most popular, and "efficient" build.
Thus, in most cases the concept of free-form toon building is actually nothing but a clever fantasy, and the reality is that we might as well think people are building an AT named "Cheese", with the skill choices going... Quarry or AoPM... FG... Lunge... DW or DC... Msterful Dodge... BCR@RR... etc..
When you see something as funky as the people being allowed to build what they want, and yet in the end everyone ends up the same.. then it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out something is wrong.
/facepalm
How would his suggestion force ppl to play same build??
Vixy was replying to Talesian.
The Melee Oneshotter (Binding of Aratron, Ego Storm, Dragon's X, Force Geyser)
The Ranged Murderer (Binding of Aratron, Ice Cage, Ascension, Smoke Grenade, PBR (or any other high damage ranged maintain move), Force Geyser)
The Big Healer Target (Palliate for SH, double bubbles, Conviction + Iniquity)
It's actually REFRESHING to see a TK Blader in SH and get one shotted by them instead. I don't know why either! It isn't like it's that much harder to do. (TK Maelstrom + TK Annihilation) TK Lancers are a breath of fresh air too.
Dear God, change this font color.
It's a known fact that the devs primarily balance around PvE DPE (and to a lesser extent DPS). Many powers and powersets have good DPS and DPE. It's really just the proliferation of Invul and/or IDF that puts a huge damper on this. I do believe that Muni is capable of doing well in PvP. My first PvP character started off as Gatling+2GM KM.
yup munition isn't meant for PvP unless you're someone like Bunkers (a really good munition toon i have met before):D
Something is not right when a fully charged AR is blasting a way at the fatty zombie in ZA and you have to recharge and blast away again and sometimes again. But the Dw runs up and takes down the fatty zombie beside the one your blasting...and then does the finishing blow on your target.
2. The penetration needs to be reduced down to 25-30% or work by stacks of 5 each reducing resistances down by 10%.
3. It shouldn't just penetrate resistance, it should work on dodge/avoidance and absorption too so resistance isn't so neglected.
Also atm there is a lack of defiance tanks in CO so DW isnt even needed .
Just becouse you dont know how to fight mele glass cannons, no need to cry about it on forums, im guesing 30% of you also think ego storm needs balance too, but that just shows how long and how good are you in PVP ^_^
Exactly, more powers with resistance penetration mean more options, more choices and less cloned DWers... and maybe even more themed toons in pvp? who knows? :rolleyes:
At least classic style Defiance tanks complaining about the bullshi* penetration level of DW is a lot easier to understand and sympathize with, than compared to an Inuvldodge cheese build complaining about poison.
And guess why Defiance-based tanks are calling it quits, and most every cheese simply flowed down to Invuldodge builds.
And I'm guessing 100% of you never really tried stepping out of that easymode to face DW the threat. It's quite really easy to claim DW's nothing special, when you are an Invuldodger. Really.
I recommend you try PvP with a non-multi-layer defense toon, without FG, without DW or DC... and then go up against the typical SS EGO/DEX AoPM DW/DC toon with Force Gaystuff pumping out of them annoying fingersnaps every 3 seconds.
Try that, and then come tell us that a power that lands a 3.5k critical by smashing through a 170% resistance is not a problem.
I'm pretty sure you'll understand why pure defiance builds "crying" about DW makes much more sense than a crapcheese Invuldodge crying about deadly poison.
only one of my toons is INV/Dodge build ( need it for SL farm ) he doesnt even have DW , and from what i notised Ranged > Mele
so sorry to say but you failed dear
and also if realy think that most are ego/dex then you realy dunno anything about pvp =p
also Inv/Dodge is not cheesy , you jut dont know how do kill them sweety ^^
And one more think with my defiance tank i kill lots of DW builds so again , if you think you can just take defiance , mass heals and stand still and think you can survive everything then ppl like that should realy stay out of PVP .