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Regarding "Unorthodox Cosmics" and "Trolling"
nacito
Posts: 983 Arc User
Hello, I'm known in game as @nacito, and as Varanus or Trunner/TheXTrunner in other gaming words, been playing since 2014 and had my fair amount of time spent in game.
Trough my whole time here I've been seen ups and downs, maybe not much as any other veteran who has been here for longer (god only knows what I was doing in 2011) and suffered trough what is known as "maintenance mode". I've taken this game seriously in on and offs periods, while also trying to take care of my own life.
I've met a lot of people, of all kinds and shapes. I can tell with certainty that this game has a lot of things for everyone to enjoy one way or another. Yet what I've seen is not always nice and dandy, let me ge to the point.
Cosmics, been there, done them, countless times already, people keep doing them because it is the little bit of content we can still do to get actually somewhere in the game (I think you guys call it End Game). It is not a surprise that a lot of people take the seriousness of these runs differently than with any other content in the game (open world bosses be like that, Kigatilik, Qwyjibo, Teleiosaur, Eidolon of Destruction), after all, think about the following, these require the participation and collective effort of anything between 10 to 50 people who have different mind sets and strategies to do their thing. So, one can't help but feel powerless versus one or two people who destroy this effort and time of these different individuals.
But nacito!, you must be thinking, we all know what trolls are, we know they should be purged from being in the game at all, what else is there to be said about!, to that I say, yes you have a point. But, there's always a "but" to everything. We sit in a position where Cosmics have been done since 2016, to which we can recall various changes to the overall strategies that groups of people or, to an extent, even just one or two individuals, have figured out. You may recall reading or seeing in forums guides about the "right way" of doing cosmics, or dpsing, or tanking, or healing, or ccing; trusting blindly in the effort and knowledge of these people because... well they've played the game for longer than the rest? because they've studied the fight? because it simply works and you just don't fix what is not broken? we've been assuming a lot of things already with these claims, and for what? for comfort? for not make people loose time? for things to always go smoothly and without fails? or wipes? because the more wipes we have the more people we loose? why don't we throw things out of the window and say what is truly what is going on, that we don't know really what we are doing, and we are just all trying our best, even the people that are so called "elitists". To be fair, the people that you see as elitist aren't that flawless, they're people like you or me, maybe with more time in their hands I don't know, I don't consider myself an elitist and if I've been tagged like one then... maybe you're aiming too high on me haha.
Of course that there are people that on purpose get to lets say, hit slept dogs, or wake hearts, or move baby to dps piles, we do need to draw the line there, but do we call also trolling to something just because it is different like... fighting ape on top of the hill? 5 tank dogs at kiga? tank dino as dps? these are all ways of still playing the game and still succeeding, yet we call them trolling just because it is different? it does not go as smoothly? we loose time? if you are so angry about loosing time in game due to people doing things differently then you shouldn't be really playing the game to begin with. We need to have more open minds and try to realize, what is really happening, what people do, and why do they do it.
I call people to think about the kind of assumptions they do about other's actions, again, we all do things differently, we respect the way people do the content, after all, it works, why don't we give the chance to find out new and exciting ways to change the way things work?. I will begin talking in a more personal way now, I struggle with changes in routine, I find peace and calmness in doing the same things the same way, it is what my comfort zone is set in, but if I think that staying in my comfort zone forever like that is gonna take me somewhere then I'm a fool. Big changes happen when people decide so, and we shouldn't stall the little content we have just because we are way too comfortable with what we have already, that is not how you keep enjoying the game.
But nacito! I don't enjoy the game when my favorite cosmic is not going the way I'm used for years! I'ma report them>:c
Then... why are you playing it in the first place? aren't you doing it because you have an obsession with the game? I'm not here to criticize the reasons as to why you play Champions Online, I'm here to tell you that you have to realize those reasons yourself, and ask: Is it really worth it to get so worked up about this at all? we have mute buttons, we are still able to play the game, maybe we can play it once a week, does that mean you can only get sadness and frustration for those faint chances of you playing the game?
No, we are here to have fun, and fun we are going to have, if we don't have fun, then why are we playing it? why does it have to all be a boring routine? why do we have to eat the doings of other people? it is not fair to anyone. Isn't the game meant to take us out of the routines already? it is all just very odd from my perspective because I genuinely don't understand them...
Last thoughts, I really hope to hear from you guys, does not matter if it is hurtful to me, I do want to understand it, understand you, random player who stumbled upon this huge wall of text, why does it matter so much to you to do cosmics the same way that you're used to do?
Without much else to say about this topic, I say thanks for reading and hope we can get to an understanding between all of us.
Trough my whole time here I've been seen ups and downs, maybe not much as any other veteran who has been here for longer (god only knows what I was doing in 2011) and suffered trough what is known as "maintenance mode". I've taken this game seriously in on and offs periods, while also trying to take care of my own life.
I've met a lot of people, of all kinds and shapes. I can tell with certainty that this game has a lot of things for everyone to enjoy one way or another. Yet what I've seen is not always nice and dandy, let me ge to the point.
Cosmics, been there, done them, countless times already, people keep doing them because it is the little bit of content we can still do to get actually somewhere in the game (I think you guys call it End Game). It is not a surprise that a lot of people take the seriousness of these runs differently than with any other content in the game (open world bosses be like that, Kigatilik, Qwyjibo, Teleiosaur, Eidolon of Destruction), after all, think about the following, these require the participation and collective effort of anything between 10 to 50 people who have different mind sets and strategies to do their thing. So, one can't help but feel powerless versus one or two people who destroy this effort and time of these different individuals.
But nacito!, you must be thinking, we all know what trolls are, we know they should be purged from being in the game at all, what else is there to be said about!, to that I say, yes you have a point. But, there's always a "but" to everything. We sit in a position where Cosmics have been done since 2016, to which we can recall various changes to the overall strategies that groups of people or, to an extent, even just one or two individuals, have figured out. You may recall reading or seeing in forums guides about the "right way" of doing cosmics, or dpsing, or tanking, or healing, or ccing; trusting blindly in the effort and knowledge of these people because... well they've played the game for longer than the rest? because they've studied the fight? because it simply works and you just don't fix what is not broken? we've been assuming a lot of things already with these claims, and for what? for comfort? for not make people loose time? for things to always go smoothly and without fails? or wipes? because the more wipes we have the more people we loose? why don't we throw things out of the window and say what is truly what is going on, that we don't know really what we are doing, and we are just all trying our best, even the people that are so called "elitists". To be fair, the people that you see as elitist aren't that flawless, they're people like you or me, maybe with more time in their hands I don't know, I don't consider myself an elitist and if I've been tagged like one then... maybe you're aiming too high on me haha.
Of course that there are people that on purpose get to lets say, hit slept dogs, or wake hearts, or move baby to dps piles, we do need to draw the line there, but do we call also trolling to something just because it is different like... fighting ape on top of the hill? 5 tank dogs at kiga? tank dino as dps? these are all ways of still playing the game and still succeeding, yet we call them trolling just because it is different? it does not go as smoothly? we loose time? if you are so angry about loosing time in game due to people doing things differently then you shouldn't be really playing the game to begin with. We need to have more open minds and try to realize, what is really happening, what people do, and why do they do it.
I call people to think about the kind of assumptions they do about other's actions, again, we all do things differently, we respect the way people do the content, after all, it works, why don't we give the chance to find out new and exciting ways to change the way things work?. I will begin talking in a more personal way now, I struggle with changes in routine, I find peace and calmness in doing the same things the same way, it is what my comfort zone is set in, but if I think that staying in my comfort zone forever like that is gonna take me somewhere then I'm a fool. Big changes happen when people decide so, and we shouldn't stall the little content we have just because we are way too comfortable with what we have already, that is not how you keep enjoying the game.
But nacito! I don't enjoy the game when my favorite cosmic is not going the way I'm used for years! I'ma report them>:c
Then... why are you playing it in the first place? aren't you doing it because you have an obsession with the game? I'm not here to criticize the reasons as to why you play Champions Online, I'm here to tell you that you have to realize those reasons yourself, and ask: Is it really worth it to get so worked up about this at all? we have mute buttons, we are still able to play the game, maybe we can play it once a week, does that mean you can only get sadness and frustration for those faint chances of you playing the game?
No, we are here to have fun, and fun we are going to have, if we don't have fun, then why are we playing it? why does it have to all be a boring routine? why do we have to eat the doings of other people? it is not fair to anyone. Isn't the game meant to take us out of the routines already? it is all just very odd from my perspective because I genuinely don't understand them...
Last thoughts, I really hope to hear from you guys, does not matter if it is hurtful to me, I do want to understand it, understand you, random player who stumbled upon this huge wall of text, why does it matter so much to you to do cosmics the same way that you're used to do?
Without much else to say about this topic, I say thanks for reading and hope we can get to an understanding between all of us.
Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
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Comments
Everyone has their right to whatever emotion it is that they feel. If they get mad, then so be it. They are allowed to be mad. Nobody is saying that people are not allowed to be mad. That cannot be absolutely controlled in any way whatsoever by others. You miss the point in interpreting that nacito is "getting up in arms about it". I quote from the OP, "I call people to think about the kind of assumptions they do..." and "...I really hope to hear from you guys..." which definitely speak to me about his intention of wanting to foster discussion and thinking among the community about recent events and even receive the thoughts of the community himself.
Again another perspective. Broken relative to what? If there is a way to do cosmics that overall allow for more chance for success in a shorter amount of time, I'm rather sure that after adopting that way of running the cosmic, the previously "preset norm" would be the new broken method of running cosmics. We don't know if something is broken until we can show that it is broken and we can't show that it is broken if we don't try what would show it is broken.
Nobody has to do anything. It is open world content and people are free to leave as they wish. Nobody's time is an obligation on CO, always a choice. If people have assumptions about how long a cosmic will take, they are likely to be disappointed and are ignoring the reality of how many factors there really are in a cosmic. To blame 2 people really ignores the power of the rest of the others present there, especially at a cosmic like Dino.
"Fine" as in a majority has agreed on a way of doing something for years. If hundreds of people decide they want to do something a certain way, and they've done it for years that way with the only issue being a few outsiders causing havoc only for it to eventually end and go back to normal again, then that's considered "fine". There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
Sorry, but your words are kind of betraying his in that case, because it sounds like you don't care whether or not people are going to get mad. It can't be controlled, but it can be prevented, and its really not a hard thing to do. Additionally, I get the point of the OP, but I'll talk more about that later.
Something I think that isn't understood here is the fact it has been done the same way for years. A higher chance for success isn't going to randomly happen because 2 people decided that a boss needs to be faced this way, or dogs need to be over here instead, or some other third thing. And even if it did, the amount of Ls to take because of people having to suddenly adjust isn't worth the time. People just want to play a videogame and go do something else... which brings me to the next part, and conclusion..
You're right, nobody has to do anything, but this is a videogame and people want to. People are free to leave as they wish and come (if the instance allows) as they wish also. Nobody's time is an obligation on CO, and it is a choice... which means its no one else's time to waste. This isn't about assuming how long a cosmic will take either, its about knowing it will usually take longer if a random variable's thrown in. Because hilariously enough, when someone trolls a cosmic, it can quite literally just be 2 people that take all the blame.
Like the OP said, it takes 10 to 50 people to do a cosmic. So I think instead of making the live server a bunch of guinea pigs, you can try and get at least 10 people to go to the Public Test Server instead and figure out whatever you want like that. I would also like to point out that tanking dogs was the old way of doing it before CCing became a thing. People hated that way. Ironically, that's now an old broken way according to the above logic, which I'll agree to.
Something else I think that needs to be understood is that, when 2 people, trolling or not, decide to do something that nobody else accounts for, its going to put strain on a group as a whole usually no matter what it is. Whether its deciding Qwyjibo needs to be at the top of a hill, or that courage needs to get nuked, its arguably more often than not going to result in some sort of nuisance.
And let me end on the most important point People want to just do the thing, and leave. I don't speak for everyone when I say this, but by majoirity, people simply want to get their rewards, and get out. If that wasn't the case, this post wouldn't need to be made in the first place.
Can't argue with stubbornness in the form of "I think I'm so right". Here's a good story for you instead:
A Cup of Tea
NAN-IN, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912)), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the cup overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
Once again, This is a game. Nobody wants to get sweaty over a casual obscure MMO deep in the recess of Steam's F2P category. Yes, its played because its fun, no, nobody wants to get thrown into some random experiment. I already gave you a simple solution. If you're going to ignore me because "I think I'm so right" when I say that you could grab 10 people and try what you want on the PTS, then there's a serious problem here.
There are people without such a depressing perspective, mahoff. You say you don't speak for everyone, but you really want to say that the majority of people are really like that? How do you know?
People are free to do whatever they want with their time. There are people that dedicate years of their lives to obscure games all the time. Check out speedrunning communities. Are you really so judgemental to start criticizing how people spend their time? To start saying that it is wrong if someone cares about CO? What are you trying to say at all?
Did I say I know everything? No? Did I say you do? No? Stop bringing it up. It's irrelevant.
The perspective isn't depressing, its literally how people are when it comes to any kind of in game reward. Do you honestly think people want to spend hours getting something that would've taken 10 minutes at best? fat chance.
Bad example considering speedrunning is more often than not (maybe it always is idk) a one person affair. And before someone brings up the fact they talk on forums about strats and ways to shave milliseconds of their times, that's different from going into someone else's speedrun unannounced and saying 'lets do it this way' and ruining their potential record. And no, I'm sure you wish I was, but I'm not judging people on how they spend their time. I'm judging people on how they've wasted other's.
There is a difference.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
read: I know I'm right. Namely because the general consensus of this forum post, as I predicted seems to be nobody wants 2 or more people to decide they want to do something different at cosmics and not tell anyone about it.
It's always best to use good manners, it shows not only sincerity, but might prevent future conflicts and misunderstandings. Perhaps share this often in the channel incase they don't read the forums. It would help in making folks a bit more open to know others are approachable, just need to show patience sometimes, and let people know when is the best time to try builds too.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
oh right...
give me a better argument, for I do want to understand
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Also... you did read that wiki page right? I don't want to get off topic, so all I'll say is that, 'if many people believe it then it's true' doesn't relate to what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that people dislike when what would've been a normal cosmic is suddenly something else because people decided without warning to experiment. I did not say people believe that this is true. Evidently, nobody is here in support of random unannounced cosmic experiments. All that the feedback has been is people offering solutions so you could do anything but that.
What we need is something that isn't always the same added into our gaming session to keep things fresh without disturbing what already is and that dopamine might come back in anticipation for the unexpected. But this being Cryptic's project maybe we need more interaction with the cryptic team, something during their day at work. A chance to see them in action, not just working but sharing ideas, talking to and asking players of their thoughts and ideas, streaming, and even interacting with players in game or streaming chats, testers running the game with other players. Maybe the devs can work out something that would not only fit their schedule but give them a chance to reach out to the community more and get to know some of the people who play the game. It would be a chance for a promotional event that would make noise enough to bring more players to the game, and the ones still here a chance to work things out.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
Experimentation is fine, but communication goes a long way. If you want to try something, communicate to other people so you don't seem like a troll trying to intentionally get people killed. Remember: Just communicate with other players, it's not difficult.
yes
The reason behind my answer is because I rather wait until saying anything else, in a way to let people speak by themselves, I commented with the pure reason to highlight a flaw in your argument, which is indeed relevant to our discussion since you appeal to a group of people that we don't know if are truly representative of the entire CO population that does cosmics. I highlight this because I've been in these "chaotic" cosmic runs myself and it is not rare to see people actually help and try different ways despite the "oddness" of the position or strategy (been tanking as dps for a while and no one has blinked eyes at that so far). I am not disproving what you're saying more than what you're doing it yourself, and when you say that nobody is here in support of such methods does not mean that there's no one that does not approve it. Plus appealing to mayorities is not something I'm personally a fan of, I know I'm weird. There's another topic I would like to talk later on...
This is a good idea, more interaction with the cryptic team might help things out.
No need to pull out something like that but ok, and I'm pretty sure callouts are not allowed in forums, or am I wrong?...
Do I? it is less about this and more about why do people get so mad about it, is it because it is unexpected then? You mention communication, that must be an important thing considering all of you have been actually talked about this one way or another.
Why? out of all times now people care? considering that it seems that people do only care that the cosmic is actually done, why does the way it is done matter now? we still finish them, we still get people to cooperate, well there was that one dino where we did not finish, but isn't dino always such a pain? even normal every day methods don't work sometimes. If people actually only want the reward, their currency, then they don't actually care about the cosmic itself, they just want it done, this is why I don't understand why people are so mad.
Then again, you guys kept talking about communication, which is admittedly, not my strongest point. It is indeed something me and my... "partner in crime" lol can actually work on. For one reason or another (we live in a society) communication is important to make people understand and to know what our intentions are, what we think and feel, and without communication all we have is discord... the definition not the app. This is the biggest takeaway I can get from what you guys kept talking, and the only thing that actually makes sense out of all this mess, the unexpectedness of the situation is not something people feel glad to, so, it might actually help to not mute us as well? if we also do the attempt at communicating ourselves? It is a commitment that I'm willing to talk out with my friend, and then again, we're not perfect beings, we, in no way, think that is true at all, we might fail, we might make mistakes, but forgiveness also goes a long way, we hurt and we got hurt, and I really hope we can get along again with the overall population that attend cosmics and for them to see, that we do mean good
Anyways, last thoughts, thank you guys so much for actually commenting on my silly post, I know I do a lot of text but this discussion is not over yet, if you want to add more points or talk about something I left behind, then keep posting, and again, thanks for the chance of giving each other's understanding
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Did I say the entire CO population that does cosmics? No. And yeah, people try to help because they either do it now or go away and do it later because they have no other choice. And don't even try to reiterate that point of, "they do what they want with their time" because while that's true, they would rather be playing a game than dealing with the frustration of people trying to force some new random idea two people had.
Btw, when I say no one here is supporting whatever it is you're trying to do, I mean on the forum post. Read the feedback. Actually read it.
And since you still seem to think I made a fallacy. Allow me to reiterate and make something explicitly clear. If the tables were turned, and the majority of people believed what you two are doing is a good thing, then you would be appealing to the majority yourself, invalidating your claims of "appealing to majorities not being (your) favorite". Good thing that's not what I'm implying, however. What I'm implying is that People do not want their cosmics to be made anymore difficult than they already are. They simply want to get their SCR/GCR, and move on. There is no appealing to the majority in that. I'm not claiming that most people believe what I'm saying is true, I'm claiming most people just want to get their SCR/GCR and not have that take any longer than it needs to. Which is a ridiculous thing to claim otherwise on. Do they want it to be fun? Of course. Do they want to enjoy it? Yes. And the best way of doing that is by not abruptly messing with the formula that gives the same amount of fun it has for the past few years.
It was more of a "do not care if I appeal to the majority or not", if I do then cool, if I don't then that is okay.
I do also think, just as you, that people may just want their rewards, but "taken longer than needed" is assuming that it must always be made the same boring way it has been done because nothing must fail, you might then say, avoidable mistakes can be avoided by just doing the thing the same way always, is it not worth if we actually get to do cosmics even a little bit faster even if chaotic? It is not always the case that things go south objectively speaking, we still do cosmics in a good time most of times.
"not abruptly messing with the formula that gives the same amount of fun it has for the past few years" This is way too subjective if we think about it, for some doing the same thing all the time might be fun, for others it is hell
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
I think then that it is worth stating that we do not simply want to do whatever we want. We truly intend to help people finish cosmics because we like helping people. Maybe we have a very different way of trying to help. Maybe it isn't so polite to certain people. Sometimes it doesn't go so well and sometimes we don't think everything through and we make mistakes. We really think that we are trying to do the right thing and do feel sorry that people feel unhappy.
I counter though, why would we want to follow those that instantly do not show attempts to understand and accept us and instead insult us in attempt to control our behavior?
It is strong evidence here already to what degree people in the community forego understanding of others in defense of their perception that they are absolutely right. People want more communication, but I ask: how do you communicate with those that do not care to listen? Mahoff says that people only want their GCR/SCR, but I really like the interactions that people have in confronting challenges to accomplish a common goal. If people are so selfish to only care about their own rewards, would they really want to communicate to work with other people? Only if they have to. So if nobody has to or wants to listen to others when they have this mindset, what is then is the point of trying to communicate with them? I am absolutely sure that anyone that has tried communication with the CO community has encountered the frustration of this. The people that do care for cosmics though can think for themselves and understand what is going on. They don't get angry because GCR/SCR is not their goal.
Furthermore, to those that complain that we do not listen, would anyone really want to listen to people that show you hatred when you attempt to be nice? Do you think that I am actually doing anything truly mean? Who is really not being understanding if the first reaction of some people in a community is to outright call anyone that acts differently than expected an asshole, retard, troll, or, in an actual extreme case, compare those people to hitler?
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
What OP considers fun or boring is entirely subjective and does not give them, or anyone else, the right to waste other player's time. Many people have a set time to play the game and I'm sure the last thing they want to spend it on is content taking a needlessly long amount of time. Keep in mind this is an MMO, not your personal sandbox. The argument that "it still gets done" doesn't hold water, either. That's like driving down the wrong side of the road and then claiming that we'll still get to our destination.
Another option for experimentation would be the pts, so as anyone else is free to play the game as they wish. I would assume that we're all playing the game because we think it's fun. If OP is bored then I suggest you find something else to do with your time, as there are innumerable ways to be entertained these days.
(My personal feeling is that this is all an attempt to troll without breaking the ToS. But that's none of my business...)
Furthermore, to those that complain that we do not listen, would anyone really want to listen to people that show you hatred when you attempt to be nice? Do you think that I am actually doing anything truly mean? Who is really not being understanding if the first reaction of some people in a community is to outright call anyone that acts differently than expected an asshole, retard, troll, or, in an actual extreme case, compare those people to hitler?[/quote]
When your "experiment" fails, and somebody else has to pick up the pieces of the run, and you start spamming zone chat, saying "reset" in order to mock people, then what ever your intent was, you will be seen as a troll. Was that when you were trying to be nice? or was it when you didn't say anything and started pulling while people were still sorting rolls?
In all honesty if you are so bored that you need to pull stunts to get your kicks, maybe it's time to step back, give yourself a few months to do something else, come back to the game fresh. It would be sad to see such a long time player get branded as a troll and put on a ban because they just wanted to freshen up their game play.
Thats a pretty good idea.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.