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Was Save the Earth deigned to be that bad or . . .

guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,307 Arc User
edited October 2020 in Champions Online Discussion
just a result of gross incompetence? I tend to think it was designed to be bad, like the designers sat around a white board with "Offensively Bad" written at the top and underlined with a bunch of word cloud ideas sprouting from it, like "tedious", "dissuade new players", "give players reasons to hate casuals", and "make players feel hopeless and weak". Taped to the board would be a print out of the elements of bad video game design with many sections checked off as they were added to the mission. I'd like to imagine at the bottom of the board was the phrase "Let's make Cybermind seem reasonable!" circled with several exclamation points at the end.

In other news I have to run Save the Earth a bunch of times during the Halloween event, like 14 times, twice on 6 toons and once on 2 toons, and even when I luck out and get on a good team giving me a smooth and easy run, I find myself thankful to the team but still hating the mission. I sometimes feel this mission was made with the expressed purpose to stop players from asking for new content.
Post edited by guyhumual on

Comments

  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,567 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    Oh No, IT IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE
    1. Obnoxious endless spawn of mobs
    2. Zero Gravity
    3. BUGS BUGS AND MORE BUGS: Most infamous when a player opens the door and agro the mobs, retreats back to the hall and cause an unwinnable loop of mobs spawning, following them and teleporting back to their spawn point

    People said this Alert was made to sabotage everyone who farms Questionite via Vigilante and now I absolutely believe it because it completely killed it for me

    Cybermind's fight design is a masterpiece compared to STO, It brings good enviroment puzzle elements with the Colour phases

    ASSAULTING YOUR PLAYERS WITH ENDLESS WAVES OF MOBS WHILE FIGHTING IS NEITHER FUN NOR GOOD GAME DESIGN 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏​​
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroesm! Playing since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life! Run out of unique FF builds!
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,707 Arc User
    But ... it is there to stay. I mean, they haven't been able to bring Eido back. CO's motto is "Move on. Never look back. Never apologize."
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,307 Arc User
    The endless supply of mobs is certainly the most annoying thing about the alert for me as well. I'm not sure what the nemesis is planning on destroying with that laser, but I'm pretty sure if they've got that many mobs at their beck and call they could destroy that target by just giving their mobs a hammer.
  • heartstringsk3heartstringsk3 Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    I suspect it was definitely made to be really hard, yeah. I think an ulterior motive was to slow down people doing Vigilance on a bunch of characters; I know I cut down how many characters I run through them solely because I don't want to do STE more than half a dozen times, heh.

    Weirdly, I've been having good runs lately, and the part that's been most annoying is something changed with the nemeses one or two STE rounds back, because they've seemed much harder to pull away from their spawn point. Even if they're mostly melee, they'll stubbornly just stand there, it feels kind of random when they finally do go after their target.
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    StE isn't really that bad, so long as someone doesn't bug the mob spawns by going back through the door. (The bug should be fixed). But yes, some competence is required. It's not a bad thing to require competence on an alert.
  • Turning on a flight travel power helps with the zero-gravity part.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 180 Arc User
    I have a feeling it is made to hold people up on getting Questionite, However, the only way this Alert is easy is when people have: High-Performance Builds [That could get nerfed] or AOE's or Both, And doing the alert by not starting the Door bug that cost the NPC/MOB to instant spawn with aggro, And this is 2 years running now of a bug that hasn't been fixed to this date.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,061 Arc User
    There isn't a door bug. The problem is just that aggro doesn't reset until no-one is fighting, and people drag the adds from each spawn point with them so each spawn point never resets.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,707 Arc User
    Hmm, so in order to reset the aggro (no one is fighting) do you need to get everyone to stay in the respawn room? I haven't had the issue of endless spawning mobs the last few times I've done it, so haven't had to deal with this problem.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    There isn't a door bug. The problem is just that aggro doesn't reset until no-one is fighting, and people drag the adds from each spawn point with them so each spawn point never resets.

    There's definitely a bug - there's a very noticeable difference between normal spawn rates and turbo spawn rates. I've seen all the adds from a spawn killed in both scenarios, its really quite different. Feel free to intentionally provoke the difference one run and observe for yourself.

    Of course, a team of good players never experiences this, because they don't retreat to hide in the doorway.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,061 Arc User
    There's definitely a bug - there's a very noticeable difference between normal spawn rates and turbo spawn rates.
    The room includes multiple distinct spawns (at least 4), which are only active once you aggro them (pretty sure they're just a fixed number of respawning minions, but haven't checked); thus, the more groups you aggro, the more stuff you have to deal with. This can easily turn into an overwhelming problem if people keep trickling into the room one at a time, but that's not a bug per se.

    And yes, everyone leaving and re-entering as a group should solve it, but groups that are well organized enough to do that are probably well enough organized that they won't have to.
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 606 Arc User
    There's definitely a bug - there's a very noticeable difference between normal spawn rates and turbo spawn rates.
    The room includes multiple distinct spawns (at least 4), which are only active once you aggro them (pretty sure they're just a fixed number of respawning minions, but haven't checked); thus, the more groups you aggro, the more stuff you have to deal with. This can easily turn into an overwhelming problem if people keep trickling into the room one at a time, but that's not a bug per se.

    And yes, everyone leaving and re-entering as a group should solve it, but groups that are well organized enough to do that are probably well enough organized that they won't have to.

    The one time i was in only recently, we were all dead and in the entrance again and enemies still came at us from the main room, despite after all in the spawn killed and all players were there, it was just an endless wave, way to many and way to many tough enemies for this amount.
  • ansemthedarkansemthedark Posts: 606 Arc User
    guyhumual wrote: »
    just a result of gross incompetence? I tend to think it was designed to be bad, like the designers sat around a white board with "Offensively Bad" written at the top and underlined with a bunch of word cloud ideas sprouting from it, like "tedious", "dissuade new players", "give players reasons to hate casuals", and "make players feel hopeless and weak". Taped to the board would be a print out of the elements of bad video game design with many sections checked off as they were added to the mission. I'd like to imagine at the bottom of the board was the phrase "Let's make Cybermind seem reasonable!" circled with several exclamation points at the end.

    On this again also, same people who probably wanted more challange with Therakiles Temple with its Elite mode now, not like we had the difficult slider setting for this already, probably same that changed the Lemurian and Monster Island Invasions into needing a queed team. And let us not forget those were priorities for Nemesis instead of fixing the old Nem Missions with AI still getting stuck and stopping progress as well randomly.

    Let us not forget also the same people that thought to give Mr Gemini no Minion cap as well that can swarm you if things go bad, those at least not as bad due normal enemies and not tough level. I think someone played way to many horde shooters with enemy spawn behavior in an MMO of all things where AoE's often limited to max 5 targets. This is the main issue i see, you can't fight all at once often like this due the target limit.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 180 Arc User
    There isn't a door bug. The problem is just that aggro doesn't reset until no-one is fighting, and people drag the adds from each spawn point with them so each spawn point never resets.

    Do you have proof of this? otherwise, I would like to see it soon as possible, since your words don't carry much weight, Just So you know.

    I have a feeling I done alert more time then you have, and so I always seen it triggered by someone dragging NPC through the door, there FOR there is a Door Bug, it is triggered when the NPC\MOB go pass or near the door, Do you check your fact before you say anything completely stupid and onesided? or you like making yourself look like a fool?

    Spawn Rate is around 30 seconds, and you saying NPC that instants spawn and WITH AGGRO, Something you don't see in every part of the game is not a bug to you? WOW, It's almost like You Want the devs to be lazy or something... LMAO

    this is Alert that Discriminate builds BTW [Nothing new], going in with AOE would Be a Cakewalk while going in With a Single Attack could be hell depending if that single attack is powerful enough to down a 20k HP mook under 2 seconds or less... Only a few people will NOT have this problem.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,061 Arc User
    NPCs in a group have shared aggro (aggro one is aggro all) and aggro against entire teams (if anyone in the team aggros, they go after the entire team) and the respawned NPCs are in the same groups as ones you haven't yet killed, so they instantly aggro. This does mean that if you die and respawn, but the entire team doesn't do so at the same time, the people at the respawn get hate.

    It might be polite to give them a leashing distance that's smaller than the instance.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 180 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    (if anyone in the team aggros, they go after the entire team)

    This is Semi-False, Depending on what you mean about that, I have seen cases where the NPC\MOB would repeatedly go after a single member of a party ignoring everyone else unless attacked, all because it wouldn't reset its aggro. This is not a Bug to you? Next, you going to tell Kiga-T doesn't get bugged.
    NPCs in a group have shared aggro (aggro one is aggro all)

    This is false, the group close to the door gets aggro 1st, following by the group way in the back near the teleport in back aggro in when you get closer to them, It's not all at once. frankly, as you said
    The room includes multiple distinct spawns (at least 4)
    , and I have seen a case where the NPC would act as typical NPC's like targeting the healer 1st because the healer doing help, even though I'm the guy running with defender glove playing Off-tank, it is 4 set of them and they don't share. Even if we go and say they share a 100 points of the aggro of me for the other Group of NPC's, then that means I should Target number 1, not target that is most closer to them. Ever NPC Would be targeting me since I would be the one to carry the most Aggro in the team. If this were the case, then a Tank would be truly ideal, I know Very well This DOES NOT WORK! I have seen OFF-Tanks losing Adds after Adds AFTER ADDS, to the point there either targeting me or a healer And this is when there are Acting normal BTW, the Non-Bugged BTW to make it clear, This usually, leads me to just kill all the adds Group in an order, Regardless if a tank is present or not, YOU CANT TANK 30 FREAKING ADDS At least not those Kind of adds, without something going wrong...
    and the respawned NPCs are in the same groups as ones you haven't yet killed, so they instantly aggro. This does mean that if you die and respawn, but the entire team doesn't do so at the same time, the people at the respawn get hate.

    The way you saying this is the way you tell someone how to fix a bug on their own without Developer Tools. KEEP in mind that aggro has a range larger than anything within this game that I know of And they using a door to be a tool to reset the adds? to give out a WoW-est Experience? And phase one is not the only part it gets bugs at, Yes, That's right! it gets bug-outs in phase 2 Also, and sadly I didn't feel like Restarting so I Kamikaze shadow strike Each of the Shield so we can move on to fight the boss, losing all my Stars, And THAT WASN'T fun BTW, considering how many time I have done it all without dying as much, all because someone didn't fix a bug that is 2 years+ running, And that hasn't been fixed of now...
    It might be polite to give them a leashing distance that's smaller than the instance.


    NO! No, not only that would have been Polite but would be the Right thing instead of what they have done, Like Who Asked for this?!

    Let Word out an image of how the Adds reset in STE, they don't Drop your Icon and walk back to where they were staying, No! they teleport back to where we're almost instant anime style like and resume again and again like a raving rabid dog, This only found in Save The Earth Alert. and nowhere else, So please Explain Again how is this normal? Please! I would really like to know... :/

    And how many people Think This is not a Bug? IM STILL Shocked that someone thinks this isn't a bug. Oh My Gosh!
  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,126 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    Why dont they just ask the original crafters of this game the goals they had for it that gained a following to begin with, and then improve upon that instead of trying to reinvent it with handicapped grind so things take longer? On that note why did they even leave to begin with, this game had enough potential it should have been one of the top Cryptic games by now? The ones we have now, unless I'm mistaken seem to be trying to punish us.

    Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 180 Arc User
    catstarsto wrote: »
    Why dont they just ask the original crafters of this game the goals they had for it that gained a following to begin with, and then improve upon that instead of trying to reinvent it with handicapped grind so things take longer? On that note why did they even leave to begin with, this game had enough potential it should have been one of the top Cryptic games by now? The ones we have now, unless I'm mistaken seem to be trying to punish us.

    I was told that the folks who worked on this game either went to work on STO - NWO or just some other games, it be fair for them to spread there talents, but this game really needs A Lot of Work.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    u3u Do I need to install CO again to carry you ppl thru this alert or somethin?
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,567 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    spinnytop wrote: »
    u3u Do I need to install CO again to carry you ppl thru this alert or somethin?
    The alert is still long time until it becomes available

    But DO log in to try the revamped EIDOLON, it's FUN for the whole family :B​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroesm! Playing since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life! Run out of unique FF builds!
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,307 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    u3u Do I need to install CO again to carry you ppl thru this alert or somethin?
    Thread is about design not difficulty.
  • sannia1sannia1 Posts: 86 Arc User
    I think the issue is testing is done on PTS with organized groups. Public gameplay has noobs, under-geared players, players who haven't done it before, jerks with zero patience, trolls, and other assorted idiots.

    So what happens is the best players in the game who are all used to working together try some content on PTS and blow through it, and then everybody else tries it and then we find out where the trouble points are.

    I think the solution is during testing, for the final test run they designate one of the play testers as the troll, and the troll's goal is to deliberately try to mess up the run.
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,307 Arc User
    This alert is back in rotation and it's as broken as ever, Something causes mobs to hyper spawn resulting in 40 or more mobs swarming the heroes within seconds of walking though the doors.
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