I'm really suprised they listened to our suggestions. Shocked even. I get that there are people with 100+ slots. But look that this way, regular charachter slots are selling for aproximately 100 zen each. Which I think is bout $1.00 USD. So new slots are going to be pretty freaking cheap for lifetimers. If things work, like I think they do.
Now if they force Lifetimers to buy FF slots instead of just plain old Character slots, that's a different story. But I'm going to bet that lifetimers who buy new slots, won't have to buy FF slots. Regular old characther slots will be FF for them.
It was never a bug. If they want to call it a bug, that means the bug was around since 2009 and flaunted in 2011 when it went F2P. So does that mean Cryptic devs are so incompetent that it has taken 9 years to fix a bug? If it's a bug that means they are bad devs that should be fired if it takes 9 years to fix a "bug". And if it's a bug for real then have zero confidence they know how to fix a broken game.
It was never a bug. If they want to call it a bug, that means the bug was around since 2009 and flaunted in 2011 when it went F2P. So does that mean Cryptic devs are so incompetent that it has taken 9 years to fix a bug? If it's a bug that means they are bad devs that should be fired if it takes 9 years to fix a "bug". And if it's a bug for real then have zero confidence they know how to fix a broken game.
To be fair, I doubt that the devs from back than still work on CO...not 100% sure though. I know Kai was hired after the game went free to play.
Said some rando on a forum, certainly a credible source.
Ture, only the devs know if it was a bug or not. HOWEVER if it was a bug they should have said so and it should have be clearly communicated, that something would eventually be done about it. Account Service-related items aren't like exploit that you don't want to spread.
Account Service-related items are things that are the bread and butter of the MMO business.
In short I doubt they just suddenly figured out it was a bug a month ago. They've known for a while (I would argue years) and it should have been communicated earlier than it was. Them doing otherwise has given their paying customers the perception that it wasn't a bug.
And if reports are true that some PAST DEVS who used to work at Cryptic thought it was a feature and touted it as such . . . I have stronger comments about such nonsense. But there's no real way to prove that without screen shots or emails from that time/those reports communications with PAST DEVS. And actually pursuing that is pointless.
Bottom line, I think we can all agree the communication on this from when the bug was actually discovered until now and how it was handled IS NOT ideal. In addition, I have one or two friends who have seen me play this game, and have asked if they should subscribe/jump into the game. I've told them to wait. For obvious reasons until all the things surrounding account service-related items are settled, resolved and PROPERLY COMMUNICATED.
To be clear: I still think strongly that this is one of the best mmos, games in the industry. The communication issues, however for Cryptic/PWI/CO are STILL to this day absolutely terrible. And I it really has NOT improved all that much. I say this as someone who was here during the Alpha days.
Said some rando on a forum, certainly a credible source.
Ture, only the devs know if it was a bug or not. HOWEVER if it was a bug they should have said so and it should have be clearly communicated, that something would eventually be done about it. Account Service-related items aren't like exploit that you don't want to spread.
Account Service-related items are things that are the bread and butter of the MMO business.
In short I doubt they just suddenly figured out it was a bug a month ago. They've known for a while (I would argue years) and it should have been communicated earlier than it was. Them doing otherwise has given their paying customers the perception that it wasn't a bug.
And if reports are true that some PAST DEVS who used to work at Cryptic thought it was a feature and touted it as such . . . I have stronger comments about such nonsense. But there's no real way to prove that without screen shots or emails from that time/those reports communications with PAST DEVS. And actually pursuing that is pointless.
Bottom line, I think we can all agree the communication on this from when the bug was actually discovered until now and how it was handled IS NOT ideal. In addition, I have one or two friends who have seen me play this game, and have asked if they should subscribe/jump into the game. I've told them to wait. For obvious reasons until all the things surrounding account service-related items are settled, resolved and PROPERLY COMMUNICATED.
To be clear: I still think strongly that this is one of the best mmos, games in the industry. The communication issues, however for Cryptic/PWI/CO are STILL to this day absolutely terrible. And I it really has NOT improved all that much. I say this as someone who was here during the Alpha days.
The thing about it being a feature wasn't said by past devs...it was on the website in the comparison between LTS/Gold and Silver. Well, the getting a character with every level 40 part was. The character cap...was never really explained to the general population in the past. And guess what, we do not have a screen shot of those "reports"...no, we got something better...the webpage itself archived! So, it wouldn't be pointless to pursue that. But, what I said about that is that the website itself never stated we'd be allowed infinite character slots. But, the character slot thing was explained on the website itself before the webstie got changed to what we have now (and basically did away with the LTS/Gold vs Silver comparrison).
But, yes, the communications from Cryptic...was indeed terrible.
The thing about it being a feature wasn't said by past devs...it was on the website in the comparison between LTS/Gold and Silver. Well, the getting a character with every level 40 part was. The character cap...was never really explained to the general population in the past. And guess what, we do not have a screen shot of those "reports"...no, we got something better...the webpage itself archived! So, it wouldn't be pointless to pursue that. But, what I said about that is that the website itself never stated we'd be allowed infinite character slots. But, the character slot thing was explained on the website itself before the webstie got changed to what we have now (and basically did away with the LTS/Gold vs Silver comparrison).
But, yes, the communications from Cryptic...was indeed terrible.
The fact that some interpreted it as being infinite shows that the description was vague . . . which is part of my point of bad communication on Cryptic's part.
Something like that should be explicitly stated so that there is no wiggle room or possible misread of communication. It should have clearly said "you get a new character slot with each new level 40, UNTIL you reach this limit of overall character slots. At that point you will not receive any more." Full stop. No need for interpretations or miscommunications on anyone's part.
For account services MMOs need to outright STATE what EXACTLY you are getting. Full stop.
I get that they may not have been aware of the bug right away. BUT WHEN THEY DISCOVERED it, it should have been cleaned up language-wise.
But enough beating up on them, we can only hope they do better in the future. (And that all these account-services based things -- INCLUDING HOW THEY PLAN TO DEAL WITH SUBSCRIPTIONS, one way or another, are finally cleared up sooner rather than later.)
An outside observation: "with each new level 40" is completely incompatible with the concept of "only once, with the first level 40", irrelevant of upper limit. From what I've seen, it was, at the least under any interpretation, intended that players would get a new slot beyond just the first level 40. As such, spinning it as a bug fix is disingenuous and bad optics. If they want to change it, it's their prerogative - it certainly doesn't affect me - but I do think that method of presenting the change was a mistake.
Hey guys, you think it's possible that the people who actually coded in these features, and the people who marketed them with the website are different groups of people?
Whether or not it's a bug doesn't matter. We're splitting hairs at this point. I'll bet there is a clause in the TOS that states the owners of the game reserve the right to change the agreement terms. There's ALWAYS a clause that says that.
It matters at least some if the discussion is whether they were honest in calling it a bug. Really, that's the crux of that particular discussion. I certainly don't question whether they can change such things, I said as much. For me, the problem would be one of sincerity in messaging.
Hey guys, you think it's possible that the people who actually coded in these features, and the people who marketed them with the website are different groups of people?
Whether or not it's a bug doesn't matter. We're splitting hairs at this point. I'll bet there is a clause in the TOS that states the owners of the game reserve the right to change the agreement terms. There's ALWAYS a clause that says that.
Whether or not it's a bug doesn't matter. We're splitting hairs at this point. I'll bet there is a clause in the TOS that states the owners of the game reserve the right to change the agreement terms. There's ALWAYS a clause that says that.
They can change a lot of things, this very well might be one of them, but this is also on the border of bait and switch/false advertisement. The free character slot at 40 was clearly advertised as a feature to sell gold subs/lts memberships. The courts won't always side with the ToS, as history has proven.
Whether or not it's a bug doesn't matter. We're splitting hairs at this point. I'll bet there is a clause in the TOS that states the owners of the game reserve the right to change the agreement terms. There's ALWAYS a clause that says that.
They can change a lot of things, this very well might be one of them, but this is also on the border of bait and switch/false advertisement. The free character slot at 40 was clearly advertised as a feature to sell gold subs/lts memberships. The courts won't always side with the ToS, as history has proven.
Shhhhh...companies do not like talk of courts and such on their sites... >_> <_<
Though, all they did was reneg on the what we get. Not bait and switch or false advertisement. The reason being is that what they advertised, has been what has been delivered for ten years. They are changing it now. On the other hand, reneging on stuff like this is still rather bad. And in truth, the only people that could claim bait and switch were the people that bought LTS the day before this change.
Hey guys, you think it's possible that the people who actually coded in these features, and the people who marketed them with the website are different groups of people?
Nooo.....reeeeaaaaly? You don't say?
Yeah, which means that it really was a bug, but because of some miscommunication it was advertised as a feature, and in the end there's actually nobody to blame except for that damnable thing known as being human o3o kinda makes all those people raging about this look silly
Hey guys, you think it's possible that the people who actually coded in these features, and the people who marketed them with the website are different groups of people?
Nooo.....reeeeaaaaly? You don't say?
Yeah, which means that it really was a bug, but because of some miscommunication it was advertised as a feature, and in the end there's actually nobody to blame except for that damnable thing known as being human o3o kinda makes all those people raging about this look silly
Meanwhile, the price of FF slots was lowered from "obscene" to "still obscene."
Can only imagine how many they would have sold if they were reasonably priced or just plain cheap. Not Cryptic though, they don't want customer quantity, just a handful of whales.
If this is their "solution" to the subscription mess, it's not even close to enough. So here's hoping there's more.
Funny story. Before freeform slots were a thing, all the people that wanted them that were posting on the forums agreed that $30 - $50 was a fair price they'd be willing to spend per slot.
Funny story. Before freeform slots were a thing, all the people that wanted them that were posting on the forums agreed that $30 - $50 was a fair price they'd be willing to spend per slot.
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.
Funny story. Before freeform slots were a thing, all the people that wanted them that were posting on the forums agreed that $30 - $50 was a fair price they'd be willing to spend per slot.
Funny story. Before freeform slots were a thing, all the people that wanted them that were posting on the forums agreed that $30 - $50 was a fair price they'd be willing to spend per slot.
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.
I remember both ways. But, typically the "I will be willing to pay this much." comments happen well before the actual thing itself (I remember people saying that we should get rid of subs, now look a things) and when the thing actually comes to be, people complain about it.
Simply put, you ignored my post. Grats, you are trying really hard to pass off your opinion as fact. Cause, once again, they did not use the words "unlimited" or "infinite" or anything of the sort. It is your own fault if you thought that is what they meant though.
Nah, I read the post, it was some clunky debate-team bullshit about arguments from ignorance that didn't really apply to what has actually happened. Read, understood, sorted as "incorrect thinking" (to borrow a phrase).
Others have already been over this with you in this thread (and others, probably). I think you might just be thick, on this topic at least. Good luck in life, sincerely.
[quote="stealthrider;c-12809855"
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.[/quote]
I don't know where you heard all this but on the forums, there was a pretty solid consensus of $30 to $50 being fair. I was here, not making it up.
[quote="stealthrider;c-12809855"
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.
I don't know where you heard all this but on the forums, there was a pretty solid consensus of $30 to $50 being fair. I was here, not making it up.[/quote]
I didn't "hear" anything. I was there, too. I was there since closed beta. There was no consensus, not even remotely, and to claim so is ridiculous. There were the LTSes that were okay with it, the subs that didn't care, the subs that hated it and the former subs that hated it even more. Out of those groups, there were also the ones that preordered and/or purchased the box that were incensed that a single slot would cost as much as the full game they'd bought, and their characters (the ones who weren't LTSes) wouldn't be grandfathered. The only thing that even resembled a consensus opinion was the anger and disappointment that the FF slot couldn't be used on existing characters. No one was okay with that.
I'm not making it up, either. Here's my oldest character. Note the creation date. One of the first level 40s in the game. (I made her in CB, so in a sense she's even older than that). I was there for the conversion and I was among the voices pissed about how the whole thing was handled.
Funny story. Before freeform slots were a thing, all the people that wanted them that were posting on the forums agreed that $30 - $50 was a fair price they'd be willing to spend per slot.
Those people am dumb. One thing I've been saying since the day I started playing CO is they're charging way too much for FF slots, and I'm LTS, so it's not like it impacts me, except insofar as the game retains players for me to run content with.
Yeah, which means that it really was a bug, but because of some miscommunication it was advertised as a feature, and in the end there's actually nobody to blame except for that damnable thing known as being human o3o kinda makes all those people raging about this look silly
Spinny, I am not "some rando" on the internet, and I can categorically state with zero uncertainty that it was a feature designed into the game and as Kenpojujutsu stated, he knew a dev who specifically described this feature to him as his favorite feature of the game when it was new. I believe him. He's not "some rando" either.
I was here in the friends & family alpha, all through the beta and into live, and I had multiple devs on my friends list in that time, squashing bugs and helping to test features of the game.. and I clearly remember a dev that told me that their favorite feature was the unlimited costume slots and name system. the name system was changed before launch, but the unlimited character slots wasn't.
The only one here who looks silly is you, with your weird, trouble-stirring posting style. Anyone with half a brain can tell you just love it when there's trouble.
Yeah, which means that it really was a bug, but because of some miscommunication it was advertised as a feature, and in the end there's actually nobody to blame except for that damnable thing known as being human o3o kinda makes all those people raging about this look silly
Spinny, I am not "some rando" on the internet, and I can categorically state with zero uncertainty that it was a feature designed into the game and as Kenpojujutsu stated, he knew a dev who specifically described this feature to him as his favorite feature of the game when it was new. I believe him. He's not "some rando" either.
I was here in the friends & family alpha, all through the beta and into live, and I had multiple devs on my friends list in that time, squashing bugs and helping to test features of the game.. and I clearly remember a dev that told me that their favorite feature was the unlimited costume slots and name system. the name system was changed before launch, but the unlimited character slots wasn't.
The only one here who looks silly is you, with your weird, trouble-stirring posting style. Anyone with half a brain can tell you just love it when there's trouble.
I linked what you said earlier as well, the irony is they try and speak with fact when they only joined in 2012 .
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Simply put, you ignored my post. Grats, you are trying really hard to pass off your opinion as fact. Cause, once again, they did not use the words "unlimited" or "infinite" or anything of the sort. It is your own fault if you thought that is what they meant though.
Nah, I read the post, it was some clunky debate-team bullshit about arguments from ignorance that didn't really apply to what has actually happened. Read, understood, sorted as "incorrect thinking" (to borrow a phrase).
Others have already been over this with you in this thread (and others, probably). I think you might just be thick, on this topic at least. Good luck in life, sincerely.
I'm actually doing good in life, thanks! Also, have you read the rest of the thread yet? Hope you did, cause, man, was that last post of yours late to the party.
It's fine if has to be changed now. To say now it was bug after it was advertised and spoken about it being a feature is the problem. Their communication needs to improve.
[quote="stealthrider;c-12809855"
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.
I don't know where you heard all this but on the forums, there was a pretty solid consensus of $30 to $50 being fair. I was here, not making it up.
I didn't "hear" anything. I was there, too. I was there since closed beta. There was no consensus, not even remotely, and to claim so is ridiculous. There were the LTSes that were okay with it, the subs that didn't care, the subs that hated it and the former subs that hated it even more. Out of those groups, there were also the ones that preordered and/or purchased the box that were incensed that a single slot would cost as much as the full game they'd bought, and their characters (the ones who weren't LTSes) wouldn't be grandfathered. The only thing that even resembled a consensus opinion was the anger and disappointment that the FF slot couldn't be used on existing characters. No one was okay with that.
I'm not making it up, either. Here's my oldest character. Note the creation date. One of the first level 40s in the game. (I made her in CB, so in a sense she's even older than that). I was there for the conversion and I was among the voices pissed about how the whole thing was handled.[/quote]
Also been here since the betas. But, I do remember seeing plenty of threads where people did actually say they would pay stupid prices for a Free Form slot. Is it a true consensus though? In truth, 100 people saying they would or not doesn't really constitute a strong consensus. In truth, most people that play CO (or any MMO) do not actually visit the forums or vote on polls in the forums. So, there is not real way to determine if there was solid consensus on anything.
Kinda how I seen people say they should get rid of subs. That has been discussed many times over the years. Yet, when Cryptic finally said they would, look at the backlash. But, the backlash, in my opinion, was more over the character cap, the complete loss of the free character slots (which people will now only get 1 of), AND the fact that those that lose their subs would have characters that are not in Free Form slots stuck as silver characters, forever. The backlash was not actually about the subs going away, but those three reasons.
And seriously, happy they increased the cap (to a number I even suggested, not sure if I ever saw any other suggestions, don't remember seeing them), happy they slashed prices on certain stuff. Not happy about the free character slot change (even though I wouldn't benefit from it due to being over the 100 cap). So, if they would change the free character slot to allow it to go up to the cap, that would be awesome. Otherwise, they got to solve the gold to silver issue for the removal of subs.
Hey guys, you think it's possible that the people who actually coded in these features, and the people who marketed them with the website are different groups of people?
Unless cryptic handles things different than any company I've worked for, the contents of a LTS is decided by marketing and approved by upper management, not by the devs that actually code the features. So I guess the devs could have intended to code something different than what marketing decided, but then they accidentally made it the same as what martketing decided.
And how much chance do you think there is that the devs provide the exact same feature in game as marketing does when selling the game. But that exact feature, that was coded and marketed, was actually a bug and it was intended to be something completely different. And after coding and marketing that "bug", they left it unchanged for 10 years.
Even if this thing really is a bug, cryptic should know they have all appearances against them and just not claim it's a bug. This is not the first time they get called out on something suddenly being called a bug while it all looks hugely unlikely. All in all they are just making people more upset with stuff like that.
Also, posts from one player to other players that are basically saying "your reaction is wrong, and cryptic is right" is unfair and will only extend this drama far longer than needed. Which is quite noteworthy when you consider that the players making those posts are the same players that are claiming they are tired of the drama this all causes. If you really want to drama to cool down, just let players voice their dissatisfaction and be done with it. But of course if you're enjoying the drama, by all means continue arguing.
Yeah, which means that it really was a bug, but because of some miscommunication it was advertised as a feature, and in the end there's actually nobody to blame except for that damnable thing known as being human o3o kinda makes all those people raging about this look silly
Farfetched possibility of being a bug = certainly a bug?
Farfetched possibility of being a bug = certainly a bug?
The only actual information we have saying it's a bug = it's a bug. When a developer tells me something is a bug, I'm not going to let marketing tell me otherwise.
So I guess the devs could have intended to code something different than what marketing decided, but then they accidentally made it the same as what martketing decided.
Other way around. The developers coded it, and oops a bug, then marketing took that bug and accidentally advertised it as a feature. Typical Cryptic goofs, left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Other way around. The developers coded it, and oops a bug, then marketing took that bug and accidentally advertised it as a feature. Typical Cryptic goofs, left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
You think the marketing people actually play the game to look for features to sell? This was obviously an internally documented feature.
You think the marketing people actually play the game to look for features to sell? This was obviously an internally documented feature.
Unless you have specific information about their internal procedures then all we can say is "we don't know", which means the only information we have is that it is a bug. Everything beyond that is pure speculation and nothing else. You can believe what you want, but the facts are what they are.
The fact is that it looks hugely unlikely that it is a bug.
This whole thing is about claiming the "it's a bug" thing is a lie. If your argument is "It's a bug because it's a bug. And they aren't lying about that because the person claiming it's a bug says it's a bug"..... then ok, you're entitled to your opinion.
The bug may have been that we were never supposed to be able to get more than 59 characters and did so anyway because of the free lvl40 giveaways but as far as I know nobody knew what the limit was until the devs told us about it a few weeks ago and it was never advertised as get a new character slot for every 40 up to the maximum character slot limit, it was get a new character slot for every level 40 character period.
Now they're tying to back peddle and say it was only ever meant that you get one free slot for the first level 40 you make and that is all...and maybe that is the way it was intended at one point but that isn't how it was advertised and so now people are understandably upset (no malice or intentional lies required)...most will probably get over it, some people won't... but belittling the people who are upset right now certainly isn't helping anything...not that there is anything we as fellow players can do to help at the moment. Sit back and laugh at all the people venting their frustrations if you want to, but I do not see the point in it.
The fact is that it looks hugely unlikely that it is a bug.
Only if you are desperate to spin a narrative that vilifies the people who own/work on the game. I don't have such compulsions, so I take the facts as they are given and don't weave a tale of speculation around them.
Also been here since the betas. But, I do remember seeing plenty of threads where people did actually say they would pay stupid prices for a Free Form slot. Is it a true consensus though? In truth, 100 people saying they would or not doesn't really constitute a strong consensus. In truth, most people that play CO (or any MMO) do not actually visit the forums or vote on polls in the forums. So, there is not real way to determine if there was solid consensus on anything.
That's exactly why I mentioned that this was basically a consensus by people who were posting on the forums.
Stealthrider you can post pictures of your old characters all day and it's not going to prove what people were saying was wrong. The reason I remember it specifically is because first of all I didn't think they'd ever do a freeform slot, so it was a huge surprise to me when they did. Second, they didn't announce the price before they came up with the slots, so those numbers were already out there and were being talked about. When they did announce the slots along with the prices, I remember specifically being impressed that they were giving people exactly what they were asking for (and kinda rolled me eyes at the fact that they went with the high end of the numbers being bandied about) even though I thought that at that price point, nobody would buy them.
I can post a picture of Tumerboy's Cryptonaut pretending he was "leaking oil" on my corpse during the pre-launch event proving I was here for a long time too but that's not gonna prove or disprove any of what was said on the forums.
Also been here since the betas. But, I do remember seeing plenty of threads where people did actually say they would pay stupid prices for a Free Form slot. Is it a true consensus though? In truth, 100 people saying they would or not doesn't really constitute a strong consensus. In truth, most people that play CO (or any MMO) do not actually visit the forums or vote on polls in the forums. So, there is not real way to determine if there was solid consensus on anything.
That's exactly why I mentioned that this was basically a consensus by people who were posting on the forums.
Stealthrider you can post pictures of your old characters all day and it's not going to prove what people were saying was wrong. The reason I remember it specifically is because first of all I didn't think they'd ever do a freeform slot, so it was a huge surprise to me when they did. Second, they didn't announce the price before they came up with the slots, so those numbers were already out there and were being talked about. When they did announce the slots along with the prices, I remember specifically being impressed that they were giving people exactly what they were asking for (and kinda rolled me eyes at the fact that they went with the high end of the numbers being bandied about) even though I thought that at that price point, nobody would buy them.
I can post a picture of Tumerboy's Cryptonaut pretending he was "leaking oil" on my corpse during the pre-launch event proving I was here for a long time too but that's not gonna prove or disprove any of what was said on the forums.
And I was on the old forums. And the fansites. There was no consensus. There were people speculating about the slot and a handful insisting that it should be priced high to encourage subs, and the $50 number was tossed around by those speculating. When it actually hit, with that price, there was at least one massive thread where people were going back and forth about it, mostly LTSes calling it not a big deal and lapsed subs and silvers calling it insane while the rest didn't care either way. In no way was there a consensus that the pricetag was fine. Unless that consensus was "this should be able to convert existing characters, not just new slots."
Edit: But none of that even matters. What matters is the existing price was ridiculous when introduced and the new price is just as ridiculous. There is no justification for charging the cost of a brand-new, high-quality game for a single character slot. It's even worse, now, in the age of Steam sales, but even then it was absolute madness.
Whether the price is too low or whatever is very subjective. For fifty bucks you get the full game content, all (well not anymore) powers, and you never have to pay anything again. Sure you can spend 50 bucks on a brand-new, high-quality game, or you can spend that money to get this game. Or don't, and play it completely free. Those brand-new $50 games don't often give you the free option. Coupled with the fact that you can count on it going on sale and even then supplement the cost with currency earned in-game and you can actually get the slots pretty cheap.
Like I said before, I didn't think anyone would purchase them at this price, but people do so the price must be okay.
The fact is that it looks hugely unlikely that it is a bug.
This whole thing is about claiming the "it's a bug" thing is a lie. If your argument is "It's a bug because it's a bug. And they aren't lying about that because the person claiming it's a bug says it's a bug"..... then ok, you're entitled to your opinion.
Heh, even a couple of weeks ago the devs called it a "feature" in their FAQ thing about the changes....
With revisionist history powers though it's retconned to be a bug
Comments
Now if they force Lifetimers to buy FF slots instead of just plain old Character slots, that's a different story. But I'm going to bet that lifetimers who buy new slots, won't have to buy FF slots. Regular old characther slots will be FF for them.
Hope that makes sense.
The pricing is very generous (and the slots are on sale right now as well, 80 zen for single slots).
Indeed, the lowering of the prices is a very good thing.
To be fair, I doubt that the devs from back than still work on CO...not 100% sure though. I know Kai was hired after the game went free to play.
Said some rando on a forum, certainly a credible source.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Ture, only the devs know if it was a bug or not. HOWEVER if it was a bug they should have said so and it should have be clearly communicated, that something would eventually be done about it. Account Service-related items aren't like exploit that you don't want to spread.
Account Service-related items are things that are the bread and butter of the MMO business.
In short I doubt they just suddenly figured out it was a bug a month ago. They've known for a while (I would argue years) and it should have been communicated earlier than it was. Them doing otherwise has given their paying customers the perception that it wasn't a bug.
And if reports are true that some PAST DEVS who used to work at Cryptic thought it was a feature and touted it as such . . . I have stronger comments about such nonsense. But there's no real way to prove that without screen shots or emails from that time/those reports communications with PAST DEVS. And actually pursuing that is pointless.
Bottom line, I think we can all agree the communication on this from when the bug was actually discovered until now and how it was handled IS NOT ideal. In addition, I have one or two friends who have seen me play this game, and have asked if they should subscribe/jump into the game. I've told them to wait. For obvious reasons until all the things surrounding account service-related items are settled, resolved and PROPERLY COMMUNICATED.
To be clear: I still think strongly that this is one of the best mmos, games in the industry. The communication issues, however for Cryptic/PWI/CO are STILL to this day absolutely terrible. And I it really has NOT improved all that much. I say this as someone who was here during the Alpha days.
The thing about it being a feature wasn't said by past devs...it was on the website in the comparison between LTS/Gold and Silver. Well, the getting a character with every level 40 part was. The character cap...was never really explained to the general population in the past. And guess what, we do not have a screen shot of those "reports"...no, we got something better...the webpage itself archived! So, it wouldn't be pointless to pursue that. But, what I said about that is that the website itself never stated we'd be allowed infinite character slots. But, the character slot thing was explained on the website itself before the webstie got changed to what we have now (and basically did away with the LTS/Gold vs Silver comparrison).
But, yes, the communications from Cryptic...was indeed terrible.
Oh, and before you got spouting nonesense about how what I said is a lie: https://web.archive.org/web/20110207211957/http://www.champions-online.com/F2p_matrix
Go read it. Note, you will need to mouse over the ?'s to read the finer print.
42 40s, LTSer.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1211379/release-notes-6-21-2018/p1
42 40s, LTSer.
The fact that some interpreted it as being infinite shows that the description was vague . . . which is part of my point of bad communication on Cryptic's part.
Something like that should be explicitly stated so that there is no wiggle room or possible misread of communication. It should have clearly said "you get a new character slot with each new level 40, UNTIL you reach this limit of overall character slots. At that point you will not receive any more." Full stop. No need for interpretations or miscommunications on anyone's part.
For account services MMOs need to outright STATE what EXACTLY you are getting. Full stop.
I get that they may not have been aware of the bug right away. BUT WHEN THEY DISCOVERED it, it should have been cleaned up language-wise.
But enough beating up on them, we can only hope they do better in the future. (And that all these account-services based things -- INCLUDING HOW THEY PLAN TO DEAL WITH SUBSCRIPTIONS, one way or another, are finally cleared up sooner rather than later.)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nooo.....reeeeaaaaly? You don't say?
There is actually.
They can change a lot of things, this very well might be one of them, but this is also on the border of bait and switch/false advertisement. The free character slot at 40 was clearly advertised as a feature to sell gold subs/lts memberships. The courts won't always side with the ToS, as history has proven.
Shhhhh...companies do not like talk of courts and such on their sites... >_> <_<
Though, all they did was reneg on the what we get. Not bait and switch or false advertisement. The reason being is that what they advertised, has been what has been delivered for ten years. They are changing it now. On the other hand, reneging on stuff like this is still rather bad. And in truth, the only people that could claim bait and switch were the people that bought LTS the day before this change.
Yeah, which means that it really was a bug, but because of some miscommunication it was advertised as a feature, and in the end there's actually nobody to blame except for that damnable thing known as being human o3o kinda makes all those people raging about this look silly
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nooo.....reeeeaaaaly? You don't say?
Can only imagine how many they would have sold if they were reasonably priced or just plain cheap. Not Cryptic though, they don't want customer quantity, just a handful of whales.
If this is their "solution" to the subscription mess, it's not even close to enough. So here's hoping there's more.
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.
I remember both ways. But, typically the "I will be willing to pay this much." comments happen well before the actual thing itself (I remember people saying that we should get rid of subs, now look a things) and when the thing actually comes to be, people complain about it.
Some people just don't have the character required for such things. Don't feel bad, you're one of many. *brushes dust off shoulder onto your face*
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nah, I read the post, it was some clunky debate-team bullshit about arguments from ignorance that didn't really apply to what has actually happened. Read, understood, sorted as "incorrect thinking" (to borrow a phrase).
Others have already been over this with you in this thread (and others, probably). I think you might just be thick, on this topic at least. Good luck in life, sincerely.
What? No, before the conversion people were very much outraged at the prospect of paying $50 for a slot, among the other problems with the system. I for one distinctly remember the many complaints about how people were being asked to pay the cost of the game box for a single character, while those who actually did buy the actual game box were the most upset, myself included.[/quote]
I don't know where you heard all this but on the forums, there was a pretty solid consensus of $30 to $50 being fair. I was here, not making it up.
I don't know where you heard all this but on the forums, there was a pretty solid consensus of $30 to $50 being fair. I was here, not making it up.[/quote]
I didn't "hear" anything. I was there, too. I was there since closed beta. There was no consensus, not even remotely, and to claim so is ridiculous. There were the LTSes that were okay with it, the subs that didn't care, the subs that hated it and the former subs that hated it even more. Out of those groups, there were also the ones that preordered and/or purchased the box that were incensed that a single slot would cost as much as the full game they'd bought, and their characters (the ones who weren't LTSes) wouldn't be grandfathered. The only thing that even resembled a consensus opinion was the anger and disappointment that the FF slot couldn't be used on existing characters. No one was okay with that.
I'm not making it up, either. Here's my oldest character. Note the creation date. One of the first level 40s in the game. (I made her in CB, so in a sense she's even older than that). I was there for the conversion and I was among the voices pissed about how the whole thing was handled.
Those people am dumb. One thing I've been saying since the day I started playing CO is they're charging way too much for FF slots, and I'm LTS, so it's not like it impacts me, except insofar as the game retains players for me to run content with.
Spinny, I am not "some rando" on the internet, and I can categorically state with zero uncertainty that it was a feature designed into the game and as Kenpojujutsu stated, he knew a dev who specifically described this feature to him as his favorite feature of the game when it was new. I believe him. He's not "some rando" either.
I was here in the friends & family alpha, all through the beta and into live, and I had multiple devs on my friends list in that time, squashing bugs and helping to test features of the game.. and I clearly remember a dev that told me that their favorite feature was the unlimited costume slots and name system. the name system was changed before launch, but the unlimited character slots wasn't.
The only one here who looks silly is you, with your weird, trouble-stirring posting style. Anyone with half a brain can tell you just love it when there's trouble.
I linked what you said earlier as well, the irony is they try and speak with fact when they only joined in 2012
42 40s, LTSer.
I'm actually doing good in life, thanks! Also, have you read the rest of the thread yet? Hope you did, cause, man, was that last post of yours late to the party.
I didn't "hear" anything. I was there, too. I was there since closed beta. There was no consensus, not even remotely, and to claim so is ridiculous. There were the LTSes that were okay with it, the subs that didn't care, the subs that hated it and the former subs that hated it even more. Out of those groups, there were also the ones that preordered and/or purchased the box that were incensed that a single slot would cost as much as the full game they'd bought, and their characters (the ones who weren't LTSes) wouldn't be grandfathered. The only thing that even resembled a consensus opinion was the anger and disappointment that the FF slot couldn't be used on existing characters. No one was okay with that.
I'm not making it up, either. Here's my oldest character. Note the creation date. One of the first level 40s in the game. (I made her in CB, so in a sense she's even older than that). I was there for the conversion and I was among the voices pissed about how the whole thing was handled.[/quote]
Also been here since the betas. But, I do remember seeing plenty of threads where people did actually say they would pay stupid prices for a Free Form slot. Is it a true consensus though? In truth, 100 people saying they would or not doesn't really constitute a strong consensus. In truth, most people that play CO (or any MMO) do not actually visit the forums or vote on polls in the forums. So, there is not real way to determine if there was solid consensus on anything.
Kinda how I seen people say they should get rid of subs. That has been discussed many times over the years. Yet, when Cryptic finally said they would, look at the backlash. But, the backlash, in my opinion, was more over the character cap, the complete loss of the free character slots (which people will now only get 1 of), AND the fact that those that lose their subs would have characters that are not in Free Form slots stuck as silver characters, forever. The backlash was not actually about the subs going away, but those three reasons.
And seriously, happy they increased the cap (to a number I even suggested, not sure if I ever saw any other suggestions, don't remember seeing them), happy they slashed prices on certain stuff. Not happy about the free character slot change (even though I wouldn't benefit from it due to being over the 100 cap). So, if they would change the free character slot to allow it to go up to the cap, that would be awesome. Otherwise, they got to solve the gold to silver issue for the removal of subs.
Unless cryptic handles things different than any company I've worked for, the contents of a LTS is decided by marketing and approved by upper management, not by the devs that actually code the features. So I guess the devs could have intended to code something different than what marketing decided, but then they accidentally made it the same as what martketing decided.
And how much chance do you think there is that the devs provide the exact same feature in game as marketing does when selling the game. But that exact feature, that was coded and marketed, was actually a bug and it was intended to be something completely different. And after coding and marketing that "bug", they left it unchanged for 10 years.
Even if this thing really is a bug, cryptic should know they have all appearances against them and just not claim it's a bug. This is not the first time they get called out on something suddenly being called a bug while it all looks hugely unlikely. All in all they are just making people more upset with stuff like that.
Also, posts from one player to other players that are basically saying "your reaction is wrong, and cryptic is right" is unfair and will only extend this drama far longer than needed. Which is quite noteworthy when you consider that the players making those posts are the same players that are claiming they are tired of the drama this all causes. If you really want to drama to cool down, just let players voice their dissatisfaction and be done with it. But of course if you're enjoying the drama, by all means continue arguing.
Farfetched possibility of being a bug = certainly a bug?
The only actual information we have saying it's a bug = it's a bug. When a developer tells me something is a bug, I'm not going to let marketing tell me otherwise.
Other way around. The developers coded it, and oops a bug, then marketing took that bug and accidentally advertised it as a feature. Typical Cryptic goofs, left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You think the marketing people actually play the game to look for features to sell? This was obviously an internally documented feature.
Unless you have specific information about their internal procedures then all we can say is "we don't know", which means the only information we have is that it is a bug. Everything beyond that is pure speculation and nothing else. You can believe what you want, but the facts are what they are.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This whole thing is about claiming the "it's a bug" thing is a lie. If your argument is "It's a bug because it's a bug. And they aren't lying about that because the person claiming it's a bug says it's a bug"..... then ok, you're entitled to your opinion.
Now they're tying to back peddle and say it was only ever meant that you get one free slot for the first level 40 you make and that is all...and maybe that is the way it was intended at one point but that isn't how it was advertised and so now people are understandably upset (no malice or intentional lies required)...most will probably get over it, some people won't... but belittling the people who are upset right now certainly isn't helping anything...not that there is anything we as fellow players can do to help at the moment. Sit back and laugh at all the people venting their frustrations if you want to, but I do not see the point in it.
Only if you are desperate to spin a narrative that vilifies the people who own/work on the game. I don't have such compulsions, so I take the facts as they are given and don't weave a tale of speculation around them.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That's exactly why I mentioned that this was basically a consensus by people who were posting on the forums.
Stealthrider you can post pictures of your old characters all day and it's not going to prove what people were saying was wrong. The reason I remember it specifically is because first of all I didn't think they'd ever do a freeform slot, so it was a huge surprise to me when they did. Second, they didn't announce the price before they came up with the slots, so those numbers were already out there and were being talked about. When they did announce the slots along with the prices, I remember specifically being impressed that they were giving people exactly what they were asking for (and kinda rolled me eyes at the fact that they went with the high end of the numbers being bandied about) even though I thought that at that price point, nobody would buy them.
I can post a picture of Tumerboy's Cryptonaut pretending he was "leaking oil" on my corpse during the pre-launch event proving I was here for a long time too but that's not gonna prove or disprove any of what was said on the forums.
And I was on the old forums. And the fansites. There was no consensus. There were people speculating about the slot and a handful insisting that it should be priced high to encourage subs, and the $50 number was tossed around by those speculating. When it actually hit, with that price, there was at least one massive thread where people were going back and forth about it, mostly LTSes calling it not a big deal and lapsed subs and silvers calling it insane while the rest didn't care either way. In no way was there a consensus that the pricetag was fine. Unless that consensus was "this should be able to convert existing characters, not just new slots."
Edit: But none of that even matters. What matters is the existing price was ridiculous when introduced and the new price is just as ridiculous. There is no justification for charging the cost of a brand-new, high-quality game for a single character slot. It's even worse, now, in the age of Steam sales, but even then it was absolute madness.
Whether the price is too low or whatever is very subjective. For fifty bucks you get the full game content, all (well not anymore) powers, and you never have to pay anything again. Sure you can spend 50 bucks on a brand-new, high-quality game, or you can spend that money to get this game. Or don't, and play it completely free. Those brand-new $50 games don't often give you the free option. Coupled with the fact that you can count on it going on sale and even then supplement the cost with currency earned in-game and you can actually get the slots pretty cheap.
Like I said before, I didn't think anyone would purchase them at this price, but people do so the price must be okay.
Heh, even a couple of weeks ago the devs called it a "feature" in their FAQ thing about the changes....
With revisionist history powers though it's retconned to be a bug
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