Is there any game advantage to having both melee and ranged powers?

sundevil3 · May 2018

I've got a Power Armor character from long ago that I decided to update. I wanted his combat to be more like Iron Man than like a pure Power Armor build, so I gave him both melee and ranged powers, mixing powers from Power Armor, Force, and Might. I picked Invulnerable as a passive and Aspect of the Machine as a form (since it boosts melee and range DPS equally).

The build is good against groups of low-level mobs but its DPS against the regenerating test dummies is maybe half that of a similarly-geared DPS-oriented character. His DPS is pretty much the same whether he's doing melee, range, or a combination.

So this got me thinking . . . there seem to be quite a few disadvantages to making a build that can do both melee and ranged damage (e.g., having to buy both melee and ranged powers, not having one superstat that boosts all damage, having sucky choices for passives), but are there any advantages?

Initially, I was thinking, "yeah, my DPS sucks, but I'll be more versatile than a pure melee or pure ranged character." But that doesn't actually seem to be true. My pure-ranged DPS characters can use their range attacks whether the mob is at a distance or within melee range, so they really wouldn't get any benefit by also having melee powers.

Am I missing something, or do characters who do both melee and ranged damage have no real game advantage over characters that specialize in all-melee or all-range attacks?

roughbearmattach · May 2018

You could potentially find a ranged attack that provides a debuff that is useful to your melee attacks.
It can be useful for a melee attacker to have an "alpha strike" ranged attack, and possibly a ranged attack to generate threat for tanking.

For example, an offtank who is melee can benefit from a ranged AoE that generates a good bit of threat.

Another example would be having a big charge-up attack that does some good damage and delivers a crushing debuff before entering melee.

pantagruel01 · May 2018

The main advantage is cherry-picking the best powers for a specific use; mostly this means things like debuff appliers on a melee setup. There is also significant value to ranged threat generation on tanks.

markhawkman · May 2018

Also you can't really count on being able to melee EVERY enemy. Most of them sure, but not every single one.

spinnytop · May 2018

Four advantages I can think of:

1) You can have really wide aoes by using ranged aoes, and have really damaging single target damage by using melee attacks, thereby maximizing the amount of damage you can apply in a broader number of situations.

2) Ranged attacks can reach further than lunges, so when you're in a situation where you need to damage something right this second but you're more than 60 range away, or in a situation where lunging at that target would put you in a worse position, you can blast that target now without changing your position.

3) Safe openers. By starting a fight with ranged attacks you leave yourself more options than you would have if you started the fight by charging in and opening with a melee attack.

4) Maintaining the ability to kite while still having the high damage of melee attacks.

Basically it boils down to increasing your versatility; your ability to take advantage of opportunities and recover from bad situations. In trade, you will be comparatively less powerful in situations that would be optimal for a melee-only or ranged-only build ( i.e. in a situation where everything is in melee range, a melee-only build would likely down them faster ).

markhawkman · May 2018

Yeah, Tanya uses Haymaker for single target damage and Pyre for AoE spam

Lautna is basically the opposite and has melee AoEs and single target or cylinder ranged.

aesica · June 2018

Note: The following may be a rather harsh criticism, so sorry in advance.

Any advantage ranged may have over melee or vise versa is entirely the fault of poor balance and design, and while this problem wasn't created by the current team, they haven't really shown an interest in correcting it. And thus, the divide remains.

Advantages of melee powers:

Generally faster to cast/execute. This is good because melee often has to be ready to move more frequently due to the short range of the attacks if nothing else.
Generally more movement-friendly. Also good, for the same reasons listed in the previous point.
Generally has more "cleavy" powers. I'm pretty neutral on this one, because while it's nice, the cleave is often limited to a frontal cone or cylinder that makes it a poor replacement for a true AoE. In most cases.
More efficient damage - energy ratio. This is utterly terrible because, in most cases, it means melee is going to perform better overall and thus be what someone looking to minmax may gravitate toward.

Advantages of ranged powers:

Some ranged attacks (usually just single target, but not always) have better reach than lunges. This is actually a fair balancing mechanic though, provided the 100 foot range powers root the user or otherwise requires longer casts. It's important to understand that a lot of ranged attacks only have a 50 foot range, in which case melee actually comes out ahead due to the "main" lunges being instant with no meaningful cooldown.
Generally better area of effect coverage for AoEs. This one is pretty bad because, well just think about it for a second. A 25 foot radius is obviously better than a 10 foot radius. A 45 degree 50 foot cone is better than even a 200 degree 10 foot cone. A targetable 15 foot radius sphere with a range of 50 feet is better than a 10 foot radius PBAoE.

- - -

Ultimately, the ranged/melee divide could go away today and things would mostly be fine. You'd of course get minmaxers who take, say, a melee single target and ranged aoe, but seriously, how is that any different than how minmaxers are already cherry-picking powers? All it would really mean is that it's time to go and balance powers based on performance instead of relying on the melee/range crutch to make this happen. If melee AoEs were no longer appealing, it wouldn't be game-destroying to increase their reach to 15 feet and/or make them more mobile. Do ranged AoEs like Epidemic really need to be 25 feet and fully movement-enabled? Of course not.

In a broader sense, knocking down the melee/range barrier would play to one of this game's strengths--the ability to customize a character that is uniquely yours. Unfortunately, it's not likely to happen.

spinnytop · June 2018

aesica wrote: »

Any advantage ranged may have over melee or vise versa is entirely the fault of poor balance and design

Actually it's an effect of the fact that ranged attacks can hit a target over a longer distance than melee attacks. That's the case in every single situation where you have both ranged and melee attacks, including real life. In this game, melee is compensated for that by getting its own specific advantages. I think your mistake is that you interpreted the situation as "ranged is superior to melee", which is not the case. In this game, melee is currently superior to ranged in terms of sheer power, while ranged has the edge in terms of versatility. This dynamic works very well and makes sense.

aesica · June 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

Actually it's an effect of the fact that ranged attacks can hit a target over a longer distance than melee attacks. That's the case in every single situation where you have both ranged and melee attacks, including real life.

That benefit becomes mostly irrelevant with lunges in their present state. With a negligible cooldown, you can almost always use a lunge to immediately propel yourself into melee range. Real life is totally irrelevant in this case because you can't effortlessly leap onto a target from up to 60 feet away. At least I can't.

spinnytop wrote: »

In this game, melee is compensated for that by getting its own specific advantages. I think your mistake is that you interpreted the situation as "ranged is superior to melee", which is not the case. In this game, melee is currently superior to ranged in terms of sheer power, while ranged has the edge in terms of versatility. This dynamic works very well and makes sense.

That's not how I interpreted things at all. I'm fully aware that melee currently lords over ranged in this game, and that's the problem. I mean, I see a lot more melee characters than ranged, so saying the dynamic works "very well" shows a lack of understanding in terms of overall gameplay balance.

While I agree that there should be advantages and disadvantages to each (otherwise ranged becomes the clear winner) giving melee better overall damage output isn't the right way to do so. At all.

magpieuk2014 · June 2018

There are lots of ranged powers which also work well in point blank/melee range and which also apply debuffs and buffs will increase your damage. Laser Sword plays well with Power Armour because of shared debuffs and TK powers have access to PBAoE stun and critical boost effects which can be devastating, even with a defensive passive slotted.

The Toggle form is likely to be a bit of a compromise, though:AoTM is difficult to maintain against bosses, so it might be worth swapping it out for a form you can apply more easily. The one from the Laser Sword set works well if you have powers that apply Radiation effects.

spinnytop · June 2018

aesica wrote: »

That benefit becomes mostly irrelevant with lunges in their present state.

That's not even remotely true. Lunges max out at a range of 60 and provide no further benefit after they move you to their destination. Watch the videos on my channel to find out why that is significant.

aesica wrote: »

giving melee better overall damage output isn't the right way to do so. At all.

Melee has more advantages than that. I think the problem here is that you lack experience. You should watch my videos, and then after that you should actually practice the ideas presented in them. Then you might understand the concepts that I'm presenting.

hasukurobi · June 2018

It is a bit rough when I am in full agreement with Spinny but on this subject I'd say they nailed it. To expand just a little on that excellent list though:

If you are primarily Melee there are some targets you just cannot hit reliably (like the Orbs in Nemcon or the Exocite's in Lemurian Invasion for instance) where having one ranged power could be really handy. Also during some fights certain areas near a boss or enemy may become too deadly to stand in but a ranged power may give you the reach you need to keep damage flowing until that clears. It is also great for getting at potentially stuck enemies or as a long ranged pull. It also can allow you to damage enemies being held down by a tank that getting too close to could kill you or risk you getting too much aggro.

If you are primarily Ranged then having a fast Melee stun power can be quite nice for knocking out threats getting too close. Oddly having a lunge on a ranged character sometimes can come in handy. The raw speed of melee attacks can be rather useful for situations in which holding down a maintain or charge can be a real hassle. It can also lend itself well to quickly applying a debuff to use with your ranged main powers.

sannia1 · June 2018

Dexterity is your general damage super-stat. It boosts your crits, which means more melee dps, more ranged dps, and even more healing.

The Telekinesis skill tree has melee moves that get their damage bonus from Ego.

The only true ranged power that can get a bonus from Strength is Hurl on the Might tree, but it requires an advantage and is a lousy power to begin with. Other than that, you have the 25' Chain powers on the Might and Bestial trees, but *not* the 50' Chain powers on the Infernal tree. And there's Open Palm Strike in the Martial Arts Unarmed tree. So, real Strength-based range isn't a thing.

But, the big discriminator is your Toggle Form. The DPS toggles always boost one over the other. If you take a Ranged Toggle Form, there is little reason to get a Melee power because your Ranged powers will do more damage. If you have a Melee Toggle, there would be a point in having a Ranged Power, but it would be a Melee build doing a Ranged move rather than being a Generalist.

However, Support Toggle Forms boost Melee and Ranged damage equally.

If you take the Smoldering Form, you have to use Fire powers for your range and Heavy Weapons for your melee to build your stacks. These abilities all are Ego or Strength based respectively. So you'd still have to pick one or gimp yourself although if you have Dexterity you aren't gimping yourself by much.

You can be a CCer with Manipulator, and it doesn't matter what ranges your attack powers are, but you're a CCer.

Finally, there's Compassion, which triggers when you heal. If you take Compassion, you can pick Ego and Dexterity as Superstats and get powers from the Telekinesis skill tree. Ofourse, Compassion is for healing builds, and the 'mandatory' powers healers are expected to have don't leave much left for two sets of damage powers.

So, the only way you can mix both ranged and melee powers in a non-gimped build is with a Tank with Constitution, Ego, and Dexterity as Super Stats, with Compassion as your Toggle Form, a few self-targetable heals and shields to make you *want* Compassion on a tank build, and Telekinesis damage abilities. Even then, the tank next to you with a DPS toggle will have an easier time keeping aggro.

Is there any game advantage to having both melee and ranged powers?

Comments