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Please rebalance Tanking Vs dps requirements.
diggot
Posts: 309 Arc User
Currently tanks are the only class that "needs" special mods to be effective enough
to do their jobs, AND they are the only "class" that needs to split their stats in 2 areas
to be effective as well, CON and STR.
As dps, the only stat you need to care about is whatever stat increases your dmg, nothing else...
ALL my dps-builds are 100% focused on Int, EGO, Str, or whatever stat they need to increase
their potential, while i get the needed health from the chestpiece + secondary.. gives me 9k Health
which is more than enough.
My dps DOES NOT require a special mod to do their job effectivly, they just stat dmg-stat and they
are good to go..
So why are tanks the ONLY class that are pretty much required to not only split their stats, but to carry
1 or more expensive mods that are only acquired by spending GCR ?!.
Confront should be a built-in feature in Tanking-specs, and tankspecs should also enable threat
to be based on CON, instead of Str. I don't see any reason why Tanks should be so much more
"gear requirements" than other classes, in a game where gear really is balanced like crap.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I've tanked in endgame because another player threw me into that situation, but when I tanked...I had no threat modifications aside from Tank Role and my own damage.
Technically speaking, both roles require something in terms of specialist mods to do their job effectively, especially if we are talking about endgame DPS.
Generally speaking, from what I gather, DUC and a rank 8 or 9 Utility mod is now the standard for DPS as well as suitable gear. I think it seems to vary greatly on the build and skill of the player?
I am inclined to agree that tanking should probably be a bit easier than it is, but on the flip side we have some absolutely stellar tanks in game that I've had the privilege to work with over the years.
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I've had dps easily do endgame content in pure Mercenary using only mods that increases my damage,
and my currently highest dps, which is a TK-lancer, barely does more damage in full Justice then she did in Merc.
So that DPS would need just as much "specialized" gear as tanks for endgame, is a load of crap.
You NEVER hear "You need this and this and this" to be a good dps.
But you'll repeatededly hear that you need EBP and confronts and Str and Justice/distinguished for an endgame tank.
If dps doesn't need special mods or gear to be good at dps for cosmics, then Tanks shouldn't either.
Okay, great.
But I never said that DPS would need just as much specialized gear as tanks for endgame. I said "both roles require something in terms of specialist mods to do their job effectively, especially if we are talking about endgame DPS." <-- that is in reference to DUC/Confronts etc.
Even still, others in this thread have said that whilst confronts help...they aren't mandatory.
You haven't defined what you mean by "good at DPS". Because what you may think is "good at DPS" may mean "basic DPS" to someone else.
The roles require different things...whilst anyone can DPS, not everyone can just run off and tank effectively. If anyone could run in and tank, you'd likely have a lot of issues with multiple tanks falling all over each other to do their job and it could make it messy.
I am sure people would rather have fully invested tanks who are fit for purpose and battle tested than a random tank who may not be as effective.
I don't know if it's changed, I stopped going to Cosmics late last year due to the toxic stupidity that seemed to be dragged out of people when the scoring was put up...but I've definitely heard "Must bring DUC + R9 specialist mod for DPS".
I think the whole needing STR thing, is purely for knock back and to deal damage, that's just a mechanical thing. Similar to how a PA DPS would need to have good energy management skills in order to run things smoothly.
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Everything you've typed so far is false.
- tanks do not need any particular type of mod to hold threat.
- you do not need to split your stats between CON and STR to hold threat
- not all tanks have STR as a super stat
A +threat mod is no more "special" than a +crit or +severity mod.
- Increased threat is a built-in feature of Tank role
- If you are in Tank role, then any specs that increase your damage are also significantly increasing your threat
- Your super stats give threat bonus in Tank role, so Con giving you more threat is a built-in feature of Tank role
I have to ask: Is this because you lost aggro to another tank?
Also, how about instead of picking on Raven, who even started her post with:
you respond to people have been tanking Cosmics and TA since that content was on PTS and who have tanked for the top DPSers in the game?
Of course, to be fair, Raven did tank TA using a PFF toon that one time so she's no pushover.
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Things can still get toxic when the fight drags on or wipes a lot. That's been happening less in my experience. And when it does happen there's always the option of leaving.
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Regarding Confronts, they make things easier and help tanks be lazier but they are certainly not required. Endgame content as it stands today existed before Confronts did and people tanked the Dino/etc. fine without them...it was harder but was still done consistently. Confronts actually make it so that you have to worry less about stat splits and optimally timed rotations.
It generally takes a DPS dealing 8-10X the damage output of a Tank in order for them to take aggro away. This is pretty rare except at the start of the fight when the DPS can just start while Tanks have to position the boss, wait on healers, build up form stacks, etc. Most DPS who deal damage at that level know enough to take a threat wipe so that they can remain maximally effective no matter who is tanking/healing.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
We all know this never happens. The only thing that WILL happen is that the tank gets the blame
for having:
A) Poor dmg.
And a "real" tank will be called in...
Then there is also the issue with the tank being the ONLY class who's effectiveness is greatly increased
by a power that is locked behind cosmic keys. I mean, it's even in the info "Applies a large threat that stacks".
This power might not be "required", but it is most certainly recommended more often than not.
However, despite my feeling that I'm not doing as much damage (which converts to threat) as some of my other tanks, he has done a passable job. (Quantum Knight) He has 1 r5 confront to boost threat. Otherwise it is all from damage, Challenge, and tank stance.
I lose aggro easily to more dedicated tanks and sometimes to those hardcore power dpsers. The former is not an issue to me. While the latter is usually handled by either the player dying or blocking until aggro goes back to me or another tank.
That all said, it does have a "feel" that what the OP says is true. Many tanks take Str as Primary then stack Con because of Juggernaut spec. This feeds into the Wardicator loop of high Defense and high Offense. Other stat combos do less. This doesn't make my tanks who don't stat Str useless, though. They still do what's needed. But it's hard to argue that the above stat/spec combo makes the tank kinda easier to play than other combos. But we do play other stat/spec combos because they work, too.
Devices and gear: yes, there are several that are the "go to" items. Spark Shield is great and easily acquired through the Questionite store. Damage returned from damage taken = more threat to target. Win/Win. And the list goes on. You don't NEED these things, but they do make the position easier the more you have.
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When it comes to Rampage and event bosses, Tanya's more than capable of MTing. I've regularly tanked Bleak Harbinger with no healer. As a Regen tank, Tanya doesn't NEED one if the enemies can't out-DPS her Regen. The Mechanon Liberator has a lot of trouble damaging her if he doesn't have the red tower buff. The same goes for Mega-Destroids.
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It happens every day in fact.
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If this never happens, then I don't exist. Nor do my minmaxed DPS characters who have all taken threat wipes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sometimes a fellow SGmate dealing high DPS before my tank can get aggro, gets my aggro, but that's on them, 'cause then they die for it.
Certainly sub-optimal gear for the tank role, but this char is not there for threat purposes. I always have a surplus of r40 blue primary offense that gets a r5 Con mod to swap gear for the role. If I'm really into it, I'll swap all 3 primaries and some secondaries to have mainly Con.
Of course, it is easier to step into this role if I think I made the reward level already. If I'm going to just block the rest of the fight, I hope I get a reward other than the r1 trash reward for not making 100k.
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"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
I think I've seen one instance of people saying something along the lines of "get better threat" to a tank in recent times... of course, they said that because the tank was yelling at the dps already, and this was mid-fight not at the start. I wonder who that tank was...
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I am not sure if the tank actually had taunts or not. They had around 19K HP outside of FM but it seems they could have used some serious threat help.
I did not yell at them to tank better but I was thinking it considering I brought the enemies right to them.
And some has stated that Tank-specs has threat increases, but there's not a single threatincrease
in any of the tank specs according to the newest skillcalc aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm .
There is also no option for "your CON now counts as threat bonus" in any of the tankspecs.
Then there's the funny part. HYBRID role gives 25% bonus threat.. like wtf. TANK role should have increase threat.
Because as far as i know.. tanking is about threat right ?.
I received some solid advice from a few players, and I'm going to be trying it out over the next couple of months and build my way up to endgame content (or scream as someone throws me into it)
I'm running with Legions and so far it's quite nice. A different way of building and prioritizing stuff.
Challenge and basic damage seems to do the job most of the time, as well as being in tank role. But we'll have to see...
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There is a spec in Protector spec that will increase your threat. It does it in Hybrid role, but it still exists.
This is a default function of Tank role, no specs needed. The only way you wouldn't get this is if you are a tank that does not have CON as a super stat.
Tank role does increase threat. Hybrid role has no modifier to threat.
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LF1M TA - need main tank OwO
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This is more the fault of this game's shoddy stat system design. "Lots of stats, but only allowing a few to be relevant to a given role" combined with "you can essentially pick your own stats" (via mods) is a pretty poor way to do things since it practically begs players to tunnel-vision 1-2 stats while mostly ignoring the rest. Unfortunately, this whole game's been built around this stat system since the beginning, so it's probably not going anywhere.
There's those silly powerset-specific damage boost mods. You don't have to take them, just like you don't have to take confront mods, but you're doing less damage without them, just like your tank is doing less threat without the confronts.
As others have pointed out, the tank role (and hybrid role with the right specialization) technically do generate bonus threat, but I'll agree that it's a bit low on its own and supplementing threat generation via mods (and even the challenge advantage) is kind of lame. I'd rather have all the threat-generation bonuses/effects tied to the tank role instead of plastered all over the place like they are now. Then again, this could be chalked up as a difference of opinion on designing tank mechanics. I don't really like the idea of forced tug-o-threat with the damage dealers as an interesting part of tanking, but the current team does. Neither of us are right or wrong in our views, they're just different views.
But this would lead to people tunnel-visioning their stat choices even more. Which you supposedly don't like o3o
Also just mentioning this again for visibility: Threat mods are not required.
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1) You wouldn't have to deal with taking challenge on several different powers anymore
and
2) You could socket something more interesting than confront mods
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That's 100% not true and Tank role DOES have increased threat. Hybrid is the ultra-neutral role that does does everything as equally as possible. (Equally doesn't always mean good. Depends on what's going on.) Tank role gives threat bonus to superstats. I highly suggest you open up your character sheet sometime, and hover your mouse over your superstats, and see what sorts of bonuses a role can grant you.