What the Community Thinks about PWE and their Handling of the Champions Franchise.

windsoffate · October 2017

Okay so I thought I start up this thread to give folks the opportunity to express their thoughts on forum regarding how PWE handles the Champions franchise. Being it is one of their older properties, and it seems that PWE focuses more on STO, Neverwinter, Gigantic and many others. With the interest in cinema regards comics and superheroes you wonder if PWE is missing out on an opportunity and shooting themselves in the foot. Anyways peace and have fun.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

Given the size of the player base, PWE seems to be spending reasonably appropriate resources on CO. We might like them to spend more money, advertise the game, and w/e, but in the end they're running a game to make money, and it's unlikely that a significant investment in an 8 year old MMO will pay off.

spinnytop · October 2017

I agree with Panta. I would like them to spend more on the game and give it a bigger development staff, but I understand why they don't. I am also very grateful for all the development we've been getting, and it's clear that we are getting a reasonable amount of investment and attention.

championshewolf · October 2017

Despite certain wildly inaccurate statements coming from a previous poster in this thread, here are the issues going forward with any thought of Champions and the current cinematic super hero movie trends; Super Hero games, in general, have not sold well. Never mind the MMO market, which the most successful of the MMOs was already shut down and at its end still only boasted less than 1% of the player base of WoW.

To add salt to this wound, Champions is an 8 year old game at this point, and to see such a major change to attract larger amount of players would require a hefty investment to the product. And never mind that throughout Champions life time, every attempted reinvestment to the game has met monumental disastrous results which has resulted in the development team being shrunk down to compensate so the game could stay active. Needless to say, you aren't going to find an investor willing to take the plunge on a genre that has pitiful track record in an industry that many consider on its way out the door right now.

Champions has received new developers so its not a dead game, but they aren't going to throw a bunch of development at this game if they aren't going to see a return on investment, and frankly, that return just isn't going to happen. Whatever potential CO had was squandered with many parts contributing to the whole; rushed development from Atari, poor support from Atari that resulted in a lot of lost talent, bitter jealousy and rivalry from fans of CoH creating many contrived reasons as to why Champions shouldn't exist and review bombing at every convenience, to the strangling restrictions of Microsoft forcing Cryptic to abandon the console port entirely.

At this point, I would say if you want Champions to have a chance of some mainstream world wide appeal, you would be better off going for a sequel with an updated engine, visual effects, and better standards that can support the MMO super hero genre and provide content that would be more endearing to super hero setting. Five attempts have been made at the super hero MMO genre, and they've all, pretty much, been just bad guy beat em up simulators with only one really having a rich world and lore. This is something a lot of newer MMOs suffer form though. It's an unfortunate situation that Champions is in, but a massive overhaul of the current game would cost content development for many months just to get the engine up to date.

Make no mistake, a lot of Champions injuries are self inflicted as well from both developers and the very player base itself, and some of the monetary wounds are the result of caving to players instead of monetizing properly (big stickers such as costumes, free characters with every 40 on gold accounts, not monetizing new power sets etc) contributed to this stigma and issue that Champions, as a whole, suffers from in the low funds department. Add onto that part that Champions has a rather convoluted power and stat system but is an overly simplistic game it has a weird barrier that the game is confusing but too easy and offers poor long term sustainability. The lack of a true end game that characters can continue to grow in and relying on rerolling and alting just helped contribute to hurting this game long term.

windsoffate · October 2017

pantagruel01 said:
Given the size of the player base, PWE seems to be spending reasonably appropriate resources on CO. We might like them to spend more money, advertise the game, and w/e, but in the end they're running a game to make money, and it's unlikely that a significant investment in an 8 year old MMO will pay off.

That might be true, yet when you take into consideration of the amount of money made added into the franchises that they hold, when does it become a question as to rather if for the following:

1: Does it legitmize that a franchise gets more attention?

2: Is that franchise like Champions Online becoming discriminated or segregated from the rest of PWEs holdings?

3: Is the business just about money?

4: Does the business really care about the consumers or community?

Some food for though there.

windsoffate · October 2017

spinnytop said:
I agree with Panta. I would like them to spend more on the game and give it a bigger development staff, but I understand why they don't. I am also very grateful for all the development we've been getting, and it's clear that we are getting a reasonable amount of investment and attention.

It does bring up some good points, yet there is this to consider.

When we look at the attention of games like STO and the other attention given to other games like CO through Lockboxes, and also Onslaught Villains. How much of it is really put in by the staff and more of the responsibility for it's promotions just being put on the players themselves?

I've contemplated this while playing the game and couldn't help but wonder. But again it could just a hind oversight I am percieving. Yet also how much of the staff is commited to this franchise is another question?

windsoffate · October 2017

championshewolf said:
Despite certain wildly inaccurate statements coming from a previous poster in this thread, here are the issues going forward with any thought of Champions and the current cinematic super hero movie trends; Super Hero games, in general, have not sold well. Never mind the MMO market, which the most successful of the MMOs was already shut down and at its end still only boasted less than 1% of the player base of WoW.

To add salt to this wound, Champions is an 8 year old game at this point, and to see such a major change to attract larger amount of players would require a hefty investment to the product. And never mind that throughout Champions life time, every attempted reinvestment to the game has met monumental disastrous results which has resulted in the development team being shrunk down to compensate so the game could stay active. Needless to say, you aren't going to find an investor willing to take the plunge on a genre that has pitiful track record in an industry that many consider on its way out the door right now.

Champions has received new developers so its not a dead game, but they aren't going to throw a bunch of development at this game if they aren't going to see a return on investment, and frankly, that return just isn't going to happen. Whatever potential CO had was squandered with many parts contributing to the whole; rushed development from Atari, poor support from Atari that resulted in a lot of lost talent, bitter jealousy and rivalry from fans of CoH creating many contrived reasons as to why Champions shouldn't exist and review bombing at every convenience, to the strangling restrictions of Microsoft forcing Cryptic to abandon the console port entirely.

At this point, I would say if you want Champions to have a chance of some mainstream world wide appeal, you would be better off going for a sequel with an updated engine, visual effects, and better standards that can support the MMO super hero genre and provide content that would be more endearing to super hero setting. Five attempts have been made at the super hero MMO genre, and they've all, pretty much, been just bad guy beat em up simulators with only one really having a rich world and lore. This is something a lot of newer MMOs suffer form though. It's an unfortunate situation that Champions is in, but a massive overhaul of the current game would cost content development for many months just to get the engine up to date.

Make no mistake, a lot of Champions injuries are self inflicted as well from both developers and the very player base itself, and some of the monetary wounds are the result of caving to players instead of monetizing properly (big stickers such as costumes, free characters with every 40 on gold accounts, not monetizing new power sets etc) contributed to this stigma and issue that Champions, as a whole, suffers from in the low funds department. Add onto that part that Champions has a rather convoluted power and stat system but is an overly simplistic game it has a weird barrier that the game is confusing but too easy and offers poor long term sustainability. The lack of a true end game that characters can continue to grow in and relying on rerolling and alting just helped contribute to hurting this game long term.

====================================================================

Okay my dear ChampionShewolf you want a challenge

YOU GOT ONE!

First lets talk about movies that have done well in the "superhero" genre.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=captainamerica.htm

Captain America: The First Avenger

Budget: $140 million

DTG: $176,654,505

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=marvel14b.htm

Captain America: Winter Soldier

Budget: $170 Million

DTG: $259,766,572

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=marvel2016.htm

Captain America: Civil War

Budget: $250 Million

DTG: $408,084,349

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Iron-Man#tab=summary

Iron Man Movie Franchise

Iron Man

Budget: $186,000,000

DTG: $318,604,126

Iron Man II

Budget: $170,000,000

DTG: $312,433,331

Iron Man III

Budget: $200,000,000

DTG: $408,992,272

Okay so just by samples of the Captain America or even Ironman for that example it looks like that Marvel made it's money back maybe by 100 million or twice that amount.

I don't know about you, but in figures that's what you call a profit, making a revenue of an investment. And keep in mind that's just the tip of the iceberg. LOLZ!

Lets look at some others.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=avengers11.htm

Marvel's The Avengers

Budget: $220 million

DTG: $623,357,910

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=avengers2.htm

Avengers: Age of Ultron

Budget: $250 million

DTG: $459,005,868

DAMN! Looks like Avengers franchise is kicking up some money there. Seems somebody loves Avengers.

Now lets look at erm, Deadpool this is SO going to 4th wall the expectations!

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=deadpool2016.htm

Deadpool

Budget: $58 Million

DTG: $363,070,709

OMG that's an eye opener of a revelation it's like looking at a image of the crack side of Ryan Reynolds pressed against the glass of a phone booth. Oh wait that was in fact seen in the preview.

Point IS; YES there is in fact an interest in superheroes, they do make money in the ticket sales and finally YES the numbers don't lie! Just ask boxofficemojo.com and the-numbers.com LOLZ!

So Strike 1 for the Shewolf point disproven!

Now onto the MAIN event of course being the Champions franchise itself.

First off as I said before where you quoted the following!

"here are the issues going forward with any thought of Champions and the current cinematic super hero movie trends; Super Hero games, in general, have not sold well."

Actually in movies they did! And of course there are other franchises right now that challenge still are running regardless of the controversy for that matter. From DC Universe, to Valiance Online, to even City of Titans, WHICH IS A MAKEOVER ALGORITHM WISE OF CITY OF HEROES!

Point made in fact YES there is a market for superheroes it shows in movies, and of course COMICS. Which for anyone with any geek or nerdness in them KNOW THIS! Games have also been a staple for a LONG TIME!

In FACT; Champions as a franchise has been around since 1985 the same range as D & D! Aka Dungeons and Dragons! So yeah........to make the argument about the franchise not being of any interest of market or even for an eight year old game is totally "snake oil".

Again the numbers in the market don't lie, but what in fact is the truth to franchises is the ideal of letting things set and collect dust. The crowds are there, the threads are there here on the forums. Folks are speaking up, they are talking, and addressing, the thing? Who's listening is the REAL question.

The players? The Staff? Maybe CEO Robert Hong Xiao?

PWE is known to make up to 3.5 billion dollars a year! So again, facts are there ChampionShewolf, oh wait, you just got debunked. LOLZ!

flyingfinn · October 2017

I think, that i'll be playing until the server shuts down.

And then join to rally the Spiritual Successor of Champions Online.
Or maybe we should start sending MASKS and CAPES to the Evil Overlords, to show that the playerbase is still alive, somewhat.
Aaaand, CO is 8 years old, so i believe they know what we think of PWE and their handlings.

windsoffate · October 2017

flyingfinn said:
I think, that i'll be playing until the server shuts down.

And then join to rally the Spiritual Successor of Champions Online.
Or maybe we should start sending MASKS and CAPES to the Evil Overlords, to show that the playerbase is still alive, somewhat.
Aaaand, CO is 8 years old, so i believe they know what we think of PWE and their handlings.

There are good points, but again you have a franchise dating back to 1985, that itself says something. As far as a successor? I'm open to the concept yet again there is so much that could be done with the game. But again some good points too. To me I would rather see a player funded Kickstarter MMO really take off in the superhero genre. Not sure if CoTs started out that way or not.

guyhumual · October 2017

I got into CO with the F2P boom, so I got to see the boom and bust of the game, we had a really long drought of updates, but thankfully we're getting new stuff again. I don't agree with all the choices of the new CO development team but I am happy to see people working on the game again. Some of the changes they've made have been fantastic.

windsoffate · October 2017

guyhumual said:
I got into CO with the F2P boom, so I got to see the boom and bust of the game, we had a really long drought of updates, but thankfully we're getting new stuff again. I don't agree with all the choices of the new CO development team but I am happy to see people working on the game again. Some of the changes they've made have been fantastic.

Eh true, would like to see some newer content too. The balancing of the powerset for ATs and Freeforms has been a hot topic lately though. Not sure totally but would like to see some other improvements in CO.

screwthisprocess · October 2017

Moving to consoles will help in my opinion. New blood, new money, more content. The game has been handled ok I guess. They need to stop releasing these new copy cat powers tbh.

windsoffate · October 2017

screwthisprocess said:
Moving to consoles will help in my opinion. New blood, new money, more content. The game has been handled ok I guess. They need to stop releasing these new copy cat powers tbh.

I'm on the fence with that one, but yeah I could see the issue with powers. But content is a must. Same events, prizes, and so on. We need more expanding lore, fresh prizes, and finally a fresh feel. Other than that I'm okay.

windsoffate · October 2017

One thing I like to see more of course is quest that offer good gear as prizes, many of which those missions could be replayed to get those gear. It happens in STO a lot and helps in the long run when it comes to PvE and crafting. A good fill in the gap while leveling and grinding.

spinnytop · October 2017

windsoffate#8311 said:
When we look at the attention of games like STO and the other attention given to other games like CO through Lockboxes, and also Onslaught Villains. How much of it is really put in by the staff and more of the responsibility for it's promotions just being put on the players themselves?

I've contemplated this while playing the game and couldn't help but wonder. But again it could just a hind oversight I am percieving. Yet also how much of the staff is commited to this franchise is another question?

Your comment is kind of hard to read. You'll have to clarify that first paragraph since I have no idea what you mean.

As for how much of the staff is commited to this franchise, it's likely that we have some developers who work exclusively on CO and that there are other proffesionals that float between games, as well as some contracters.

sterga · October 2017

Cryptic isn't doing a whole lot with the content that was unique to this game. We've been getting a lot of the same stuff you can find in every other MMO. The biggest thing CO has is the customization, yet the nemesis system has received zero love. The dress up doll simulator can only take the game so far.

CO has been a glorified training tool for new devs for years. Cryptic North was largely new devs to the company as well. The "experienced" devs that were on this game gave us OnSlaught which failed due to greed. The content was unbalanced on purpose to pimp lockboxes and it bombed spectacularly.

Not having a clear vision for CO doesn't do the game any favors. Each dev team has their own ideas of what they want this game to be. We get whatever whimsical ideas the current dev team thinks is cool.

Gamble boxes basically destroying the in-game economy and the massive addition of grind everything has not helped either.

pwestolemyname · October 2017

Oh goodie, another newbie starting the same conversation we have had upteen times for years. Yes, you are super insightful with your 5 months experience, and everyone who has been playing the game for years, some of whom even know devs personally, have no clue. I am sure the devs will listen to you because you are so much smarter than the rest of us. Your insights are SO much better than the 902 times this has been discussed before.

The good news is, after a few years playing, your spirit finally breaks and you gladly accept whatever scraps PWE decides to throw us. Until then, you might want to realize that in 8 years, you are not the first to have thought of this.

spinnytop · October 2017

sterga said:
The biggest thing CO has is the customization, yet the nemesis system has received zero love.

When I think "CO Customization" I don't think nemesis system. To me the nemesis system is a foot note in this game's history since it's never been anything more than a few extra missions just like most missions in this game that just happen to be a good source of nemesis tokens.

Nope, when I think "CO Customization" I think costumes and I think powers, and I think content that makes my power choices have meaning. In these aspects the game has improved immensely. Yeah don't worry, they're playing to the game's strengths.

flyingfinn · October 2017

'Nemesis System gets no love'.
Yes. But i think people need to realize, finally, limitations of the game engine and how it was handled. You know, all the coding and stuff that is needed to make the game actually work...
Since this is just a computer game, adding new stuff is easy. Just few lines of code and Viola!.
Hell yes! Just drop CO to X-BoxOne. After all, the game was being originally developed with compability with X-Box360.
Heck, we were Marvel game 1st....

No idea if the Search function works for finding reasons and explanatios of Why? How? Where? Who!?

championshewolf · October 2017

windsoffate#8311 said:
Okay my dear ChampionShewolf you want a challenge

YOU GOT ONE!

I don't get your attempt at a challenge remark, since I was just stating simple facts. Mediums do not translate well to one another. They never have. Just because a genre is popular in movies, doesn't mean they will be popular in games. Remember license movie games universally have always tanked with few exceptions. The most successful super hero game is the Arkham game series. All others have been luke warm to complete disasters. This wasn't even a contest of movie sales and posting box office revenue up doesn't really prove anything because that doesn't translate to video games. And the super hero genre has done worse in MMOs. DCUO, Marvel Heroes, Champions and City of Heroes have been luke warm at the best of times with drastic fall off later in their life times, and this was back before WoW when MMOs were considered a niche genre to begin with. The only thing that actually kept Marvel Heroes and DCUO going to this day is the simple fact of the console releases.

And while the Champions PnP franchise has existed since '85, it has always been a niche franchise, nothing big or major like DnD, Shadowrun, GURPS, Rifts or The World of Darkness were. It's like trying to compare, well, WoW to City of Heroes. Yea CoH had passionate fans, but it is no where near as known, played, or even popular. Also DnD has been around since the 70s as well, far longer than Champions, starting out as a tactical table top mini game around 1974 and later being branched off to the red box everyone knows in 1977. Being around doesn't mean it was wildly popular.

As far as how much PWE pulls in, well it's a nice dream to believe that deep pockets mean endless funding but that's not how the world works, at all. Each game has to be able to swim on its own. If a company has to burn more money than the game makes they aren't going to keep it going. Plain and simple. It isn't worth the investment, and companies are businesses. Again investors aren't going to invest in something if they can't get their money back. And Champions has been invested in multiple times over the years and with disastrous results each time, again which resulted in the dev team being scaled back to compensate. It's just basic economics 101, if something costs you more than you actually get in returns on it, you don't keep throwing money at it. And regardless of standard, Champion is over 8 years old now, has had multiple attempts to revitalize the game. The fact that PWE decided to go ahead and hire new devs for Champions speaks that they are still putting effort but they aren't going to throw a big studio budget behind the game when the investors are going to want a return on said investment.

And again, we are talking about an industry (Massively Multiplayer Online Games) that many believe is on its way out the door. While I don't believe it, since MMOs have been here since nearly the dawn of the internet back in the 70s (they were called MUDDs) I do believe another paradigm shift is on its way and things just aren't going to go the way they use to.

sterga · October 2017

Video game movies tend to be cash grabs. Earlier game movies were made to abuse tax laws. Now, well... games tend to have mediocre or bad writing. Comics and books are all about writing and stories making them much easier to translate into movies. Video games tend to be about the mechanics first with a story tacked on there somewhere eventually. Actually having professional writers working on games is kind of a newer thing.

I mean, ffs, Flappy Birds got a movie. The comparison is kinda rubbish.

championshewolf · October 2017

sterga said:
Video game movies tend to be cash grabs. Earlier game movies were made to abuse tax laws. Now, well... games tend to have mediocre or bad writing. Comics and books are all about writing and stories making them much easier to translate into movies. Video games tend to be about the mechanics first with a story tacked on there somewhere eventually. Actually having professional writers working on games is kind of a newer thing.

I mean, ffs, Flappy Birds got a movie. The comparison is kinda rubbish.

That's a weak and thin excuse when you also consider book to movie translations or vice versa. And let's face it, you can argue cash grab till you are blue in the face but there have been plenty of super hero games without a movie tie in and most of them have been mediocre at best. You're reaching at this point. Writing has little to do with it when the point of a game is to entertain, not to tell a story. It's been the over abundance of trying to tell narrow stories that has actually ruined games and why people still look more fondly on older titles than anything really of a modern era.

lezard21 · October 2017

-Braces himself for ban-

I mean come on, let's all be honest now. Sure any company wants to make money and won't make investments if the risk-benefit ratio is not inclined their way. But really now, do you guys think PWE ever gave CO a chance?

CO was part of the STO package which PWE was interested in acquiring due to the IP value it held. The leftover Cryptic team from the early PWE era really seemed to have a sincere intent in expanding the game. You can check the old Until reports for that.

However, the On Alert patch was rushed out of the door and released in an incomplete state nowhere near what the Dev team of the time had envisioned.

Priority was given into "PWE-ing" the game with the inclusion of a system that would allow ingame currency to be turned into real currency, casino lootboxes and cash shop mounts, all pretty much like the rest of PWE's games.

And then most of CO's team got moved to work in NWO's development and were never sent back. A good compromise would have been to take equal amounts of devs from both CO and STO's team, but STO's team was left untouched.

Am I grateful for the recent changes since we got a new dev team? Sure, I guess. The game hadn't seen this much attention in years and all the changes have been refreshing, but I get the feeling that this was less a case of PWE deciding to give CO some love and more a case of "since we can't nuke the game's servers without running the risk of screwing up STO and NW in the process let's at least make it self-sustainable"

guyhumual · October 2017

championshewolf said:

sterga said:
Video game movies tend to be cash grabs. Earlier game movies were made to abuse tax laws. Now, well... games tend to have mediocre or bad writing. Comics and books are all about writing and stories making them much easier to translate into movies. Video games tend to be about the mechanics first with a story tacked on there somewhere eventually. Actually having professional writers working on games is kind of a newer thing.

I mean, ffs, Flappy Birds got a movie. The comparison is kinda rubbish.
That's a weak and thin excuse when you also consider book to movie translations or vice versa. And let's face it, you can argue cash grab till you are blue in the face but there have been plenty of super hero games without a movie tie in and most of them have been mediocre at best. You're reaching at this point. Writing has little to do with it when the point of a game is to entertain, not to tell a story. It's been the over abundance of trying to tell narrow stories that has actually ruined games and why people still look more fondly on older titles than anything really of a modern era.

People look back fondly because of a thing called nostalgia.

If you;re trying to tell people PacMan or Centipede were better games then something like Fallout, Halflife, or Deus Ex, then I guess that's your opinion.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

lezard21 said:
I mean come on, let's all be honest now. Sure any company wants to make money and won't make investments if the risk-benefit ratio is not inclined their way. But really now, do you guys think PWE ever gave CO a chance?

They didn't shut it down; that's giving it a chance. CO was not exactly a brilliant success even back then.

mithrosnomore · October 2017

windsoffate#8311 said:

pantagruel01 said:
Given the size of the player base, PWE seems to be spending reasonably appropriate resources on CO. We might like them to spend more money, advertise the game, and w/e, but in the end they're running a game to make money, and it's unlikely that a significant investment in an 8 year old MMO will pay off.
That might be true, yet when you take into consideration of the amount of money made added into the franchises that they hold, when does it become a question as to rather if for the following:

1: Does it legitmize that a franchise gets more attention?

2: Is that franchise like Champions Online becoming discriminated or segregated from the rest of PWEs holdings?

3: Is the business just about money?

4: Does the business really care about the consumers or community?

Some food for though there.

1) Yes it does.

2) This is some serious nonsense codeword spewing here. The games earn their keep. If CO made more money then it would get more money. There isn't any "discrimination".

As far as "segregation" goes, I was unaware that I could take my starship captain or Neverwinter hero to a different game.

Oh, I can't? Then CO is no different.

3) Pretty much yes. There is some crossover with number 4 here.

4) The business is obligated to care about it's shareholders and employees.

If you do not feel properly cared about then you can leave.

They are delivering a service. It's your choice as to whether you like that service.

You may call this "food for thought" but it feels like empty calories to me.

The game is 8 years old.
It had it's chance to latch on and failed.

There is not going to be any sort of major investment into the game without the game first showing a major influx of money.

It's a meritocracy. Nothing more.

You can try to argue "but if they invested in the game then the money would come" but you have a major problem with that argument: It's been tried before and it's not happened yet.

You have nothing to support any such claim.

biffsmackwell · October 2017

guyhumual said:

If you;re trying to tell people PacMan or Centipede were better games then something like Fallout, Halflife, or Deus Ex, then I guess that's your opinion.

I know this is full-on deviation of the conversation but your comparisons are of wildly different genres. If you enjoy arcade-style games that you spend 15 minutes on more than a giant game you spend months on, then absolutely Centipede could capture someone's attention more than Fallout and they would have the right to think it's a better game.

I knew a store owner that had the new Mortal Kombat II in his store back in the day when it first came out but he didn't care for it, wanted to get a pinball machine. Sure as schnitzel MKII would make a ton more money for him but he really liked pinballs. How can you say what's better?

chaelk · October 2017

yes we have a franchise going back to 1985. Now, outside of gamers, who knows about it? More gamers know about D & D than Champions system.

Compare this to Marvel/DC, comics? How many people know about them?

So, comparing franchises, how well do you think a champions online movie would do?
What characters would they use?
What would the story be about?
Who would even care?
There is background info for Champions characters but no ongoing storyline like in comics.

PWE doesn't own the IP for Star trek and D &D, they have to please the owner to keep the licence to use it.

To give you an idea of the original company's interest. I have the cd box. ON the back, instead of a big splurge about CO, it has a big ad for STO. Which came out 5 mths later. So this is not just PWE lack of interest.

Champions was a replacement for Marvel.

championshewolf · October 2017

guyhumual said:

People look back fondly because of a thing called nostalgia.

If you;re trying to tell people PacMan or Centipede were better games then something like Fallout, Halflife, or Deus Ex, then I guess that's your opinion.

This is what falls under reaching. You see there is a vast difference in making a story the center piece of your game and making it a frame work. Those games you pointed out, the story was not a constant interrupt of the actual game flow, you didn't have the game constantly pausing every 5 minutes to remind you of some convoluted plot line. And I don't know about you, but I am pretty sure fallout, half-life and deus ex fall under the category of older title, especially fallout since it came out in 97.

But if you are seriously going to straw man an argument like that I would have to tell you to quit while you are ahead. Or do you really think games that are over ten to twenty years old aren't old to you now?

spinnytop · October 2017

I just want to chime in and say that I don't care about story in video games. I only care about gameplay. Mainly because stories are pretty much always the same variation of the same themes and there is rarely anything interesting about them. Hell the only reason the story in Dark Souls games is compelling is because they purposely leave huge gaps in them for you to fill with your own imagination. Miyazaki figured out the secret: video game stories are boring...unless you let the player tell parts of them.

As for nostalgia, some games are in fact timeless. I bet I can boot up many of the old super mario or mega man games and still have a blast. But Smackwell makes an extremely accurate statement about genre. Do I think that Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is better or worse than Momodora: Reverie Under The Moonlight? I... geez, I honestly could not even begin to answer that question. They're both great games in the same genre that are practically pitch perfect. But if you had a gun to my head I would pick Momodora... and I think that's because Momodora has had the benefit of time and experience to maybe tune some things just a bit better. I'll always love Symphony of the Night tho.

So in the spirit of Smackwell's observation lets compare CO to games of it's own genre from yesteryear. Is CO better than Everquest? OMFGYES. Not even a competition. Did Everquest have a story? I don't care... because it was just the usual fantasy story I've seen so many times already. CO has better gameplay in every possible regard. World of Warcraft ( technically it did exist in yesteryear )... again yes. I played WoW for 5 years. I could have resubbed to wow in the 6 years I've been playing CO but why would I when CO has better gameplay? Is the story of WoW going to pull me back...sry but no. Just no... because once again, usual fantasy story I've seen so many times already. If anything the back logs of games in my memory works against any game's story, both now and then; also the fact that I read a lot of books as a kid before playing video games so by the time I encountered video game stories I was already like "Oh this again."

nepht · October 2017

You guys are all dumb. I can fling toilet systems at furries. BEST. GAME. EVER.

ordinaryplayer · October 2017

Would I like more things of significance, yes.
But as mentioned its a 8 year old x,000 person game. STO, NW, were low 1.x million across 3 platforms last I saw a number (and those two a fraction of the 10+ million MMOs).

If anything the (too little) devs are pulled too many ways to do something big fast. Redo-ing powers sets, ATs, fluffing events, fluffing OM, bug stuff, and then money stuff ... that's a nice list considering things.

LockBox, Gamble-To-Win/Play, all 3 cryptic games are infested.
Grind games, and busy work events (distractions), all 3 cryptic games are infested.
So we do get the PWE and aren't left out???

Some of it is probably the use of real actors, but the STO single mission content has slowed to a crawl lately. And I wont call adding new STO/NW rep/boon system 'content'. The new zones/seasons look good on paper from outside, but end up (NW) being 2-3 days of repeating grind missions, STO gets a couple of queues (not to sure if the latest addons even got a zone).

The grass is slightly greener, grows faster and the lawn is bigger. But yes its the same grass.

sterga · October 2017

championshewolf wrote: »

That's a weak and thin excuse when you also consider book to movie translations or vice versa. And let's face it, you can argue cash grab till you are blue in the face but there have been plenty of super hero games without a movie tie in and most of them have been mediocre at best. You're reaching at this point. Writing has little to do with it when the point of a game is to entertain, not to tell a story. It's been the over abundance of trying to tell narrow stories that has actually ruined games and why people still look more fondly on older titles than anything really of a modern era.

I already addressed book and comic translations into movies. It's that thing with lots of word bits that are often way better and written by professional writers that games don't really use. No, not all of those IPs do well, but they don't consistently bomb like video game movies.

Weak excuses? Those are two real issues that effect the quality of making a game movie. Yes, companies really did make game movies trash on purpose to take advantage of tax-shelters in Germany. Doesn't really make me think game companies aren't in it for the cash grab when movies are made by people that don't even play video games (Assassin's Creed), never mind caring about the word that are there.

No, not every game needs a story, but most games actually have one and they tend to be mediocre at best. Did you ever consider that your issue with stories ruining games is due to the writing being terrible? Or the complete garbage way stories have been implemented into games? Rhianna Pratchett gave basically the same talk at Tedx in 2012 as she did at DICE 2016 about major issues in how game companies implement and write stories for their games.

Some of those really old games that people love had a lot of story. Baulder's Gate? Ultima? Fallout? Very text heavy, story driven games that are classics? The story ruined those games? Do you really want to claim the entire RPG genre would be better if none of those games had story? I suspect a lot of fondness for older titles has to do with the horrid way the AAA industry operates now that never happened back in the day.

Also, you are doing that thing where you make up an argument I wasn't talking about in the first place to prove me wrong.

jonsills · October 2017

nepht said:
You guys are all dumb. I can fling toilet systems at furries. BEST. GAME. EVER.

And I can do it as a robot with a TV for a head, an undead homage to Deadpool, or a man dressed in nothing but a cape, boots, gloves, and the tiniest banana hammock I could find in the Costume Creator.

What more can one ask for from an MMO?

spinnytop · October 2017

jonsills said:
What more can one ask for from an MMO?

Everything you said plus furries and crazy supernatural horrors and robots...which this game has.

theravenforce · October 2017

So here's my little bit:

CO, for how old it is, as well as the amount of players (which is likely to be quite low compared to other PWE games), gets quite a bit of attention, and it's not just random bits of attention, but over the years, despite some year long pauses in one instance, has gotten a lot more content and updates and fixes than I would expect a game of its age to get.

My experience when it comes to MMO's is pretty limited compared to others, I've only ever seriously played: CoX, NWO & CO.

But we have a hard working Dev Team who work to a schedule and do deliver.

We may not agree or always like the changes that are made, however, I think, even with how I feel about certain topics, none of the changes so far have been so detrimental to the game that renders entire sections of it unplayable to the game's population.

Yes, there is content which is sharply challenging and forces a 'new' way to play which is not necessarily enforced or encouraged whilst leveling, but some players who really want to go for that sort of content have taken the time to re-build / adjust / learn the content and/or their builds to rise to the challenge.

For various reasons, this is not accessible / doable for everyone who plays CO, and according to some this is okay.

CO has long had the issue that the content was stuck in a bit of a rut. I cannot honestly say there were any pieces of content that I personally was a bit unwilling to run by myself, bar Therakiel & Vikorin (mostly because they took a long amount of time to do properly and I was quite squishy, plus Therakiel's Temple is very long winded sans crystals.)

To some degree that has been addressed with the introduction of revamped Cosmics and Endgame lairs & Endgame zones filled with enemies who actually can present a real threat if you don't play smart (or nuke'em as spinny does

).

That sort of content does cater to a select group of players, which has the potential to grow in number and if I am not mistaken has grown.

Also, we've got players within the community who are happy to help others get "on that level" to participate and do well in Cosmics and endgame content comfortably.

So all in all, whilst there are things I have not been happy to see happen...ultimately, the game has gotten better for the majority and we have new powers and pretty regular power set reviews (even if you don't like how a review has panned out, as I have a feeling I won't for [~~You May Not Use This Word~~] & [~~You May Not Use This Word~~], they can produce some interesting options).

I appreciate the work of both the other Dev Team (Lordgar, Lady Gadfly etc) and this current Development Team (CrypticArkayne, Kaizerin, Meatiator & other staff members I may not be aware of like the mysterious person who produced the awesome dance emotes!)

I think, because a lot of people are passionate about the game and their characters, we can give the team a hard time sometimes.

guyhumual · October 2017

championshewolf said:

guyhumual said:

People look back fondly because of a thing called nostalgia.

If you;re trying to tell people PacMan or Centipede were better games then something like Fallout, Halflife, or Deus Ex, then I guess that's your opinion.
This is what falls under reaching. You see there is a vast difference in making a story the center piece of your game and making it a frame work. Those games you pointed out, the story was not a constant interrupt of the actual game flow, you didn't have the game constantly pausing every 5 minutes to remind you of some convoluted plot line. And I don't know about you, but I am pretty sure fallout, half-life and deus ex fall under the category of older title, especially fallout since it came out in 97.

But if you are seriously going to straw man an argument like that I would have to tell you to quit while you are ahead. Or do you really think games that are over ten to twenty years old aren't old to you now?

No, they're all old games to a millennial, but I don't look back at Pac-Man fondly remembering the experience as I do a good book or movie, and I put a lot of quarters into that game when I was a kid. Games like Fallout and Deus Ex are also old games but they're newer then Pac-Man, and better then Pac-Man because they added story. They're all old games but I found the newer ones, the ones with story far more memorable and enjoyable. That's not to say that Pac-Man wasn't a good game but it's not on the level of Half Life or Fallout.

You want to talk about newer games? Games like Skyrim and the Witcher have side quests, branching story lines, and I consider them even better then something like half life which was a great game but it was on rails. There's lots of garbage games these days for sure, some are formulaic and dull, Ubisoft games for example, most MMOs, but that doesn't mean everything produced these days is crap. Back when I was a kid they had a ton of crap game, they still have a ton of crap games, this whole "Games were good when I was young, but now they all suck" is just nostalgia, and while I don't doubt you can name a dozen of great games, take off the rose tinted glasses and you'll see there were dozens of games that were as bad if not worse then anything we have today.

guyhumual · October 2017

biffsmackwell said:

guyhumual said:

If you;re trying to tell people PacMan or Centipede were better games then something like Fallout, Halflife, or Deus Ex, then I guess that's your opinion.
I know this is full-on deviation of the conversation but your comparisons are of wildly different genres. If you enjoy arcade-style games that you spend 15 minutes on more than a giant game you spend months on, then absolutely Centipede could capture someone's attention more than Fallout and they would have the right to think it's a better game.

I knew a store owner that had the new Mortal Kombat II in his store back in the day when it first came out but he didn't care for it, wanted to get a pinball machine. Sure as schnitzel MKII would make a ton more money for him but he really liked pinballs. How can you say what's better?

I was comparing old games with really old games. It's been my experience that as technology has improved and the capability of what's possible in a game increases the gaming experience has also improved. That's not to say that any game made today is better then Half-Life or even Pac-Man, but the argument was writing wasn't important, and that people view older titles more fondly. I merely picked some really old games I remembered playing and compared them with some old games that had stories. I suppose if you wanted to look at how these games did stories better then any other games of their time or look at what Pac-Man did that made it a great game, then it would be better to look at a comparison between games within those genres. That wasn't the point I was trying to make however.

shadowolf505 · October 2017

I say the Devs have been doing a good job so far with all the revamps to power sets to balance out the game and the events are becoming more fun to participate in with other players.

screwthisprocess · October 2017

The next step could possibly be a cash grab companion creation system. The game does one thing better than anyone else and that would be customization. I could see them allowing us to create sidekicks for a hefty price. Maybe even allow us to tinker with pets.

I dont expect much in the way of content though. Maybe some more open world stuff.

dreadjaws2 · October 2017

I've said this before, but I honestly believe this game would benefit a bit from extensions to other media. Comic books, a cartoon, novels, action figures, anything that spread the word of the universe to more people. Hell, they could even have cross promotions (your designed character can show up in the comic or whathaveyou).

Granted, that kind of thing would require funding that PWE probably doesn't want to spend, and with good reason. It's a risk, but if it paid off, then the game could be massively improved. You get a large influx of players and suddenly you have reason to work more in the game.

Being honest, I like the game as it is, and my thing is customization, so as long as that doesn't change, I'm golden. I would like them to revamp the start of the game a little bit, though. It used to be that at level 6 or so you could choose to stay in MC or go to Canada or the Desert. Now you're forced to stay in MC until level 16 or so, which makes starting new characters a bit tedious. I mean, I can hear Hi-Pan and Kevin Poe's dialogue in my head all the time now, it gets old.

The one thing I'd suggest that's probably never, ever gonna happen, is to get more translations to the game. If this thing had an option for spanish language I alone could bring dozens more players.

mithrosnomore · October 2017

dreadjaws2 said:
I've said this before, but I honestly believe this game would benefit a bit from extensions to other media. Comic books, a cartoon, novels, action figures, anything that spread the word of the universe to more people. Hell, they could even have cross promotions (your designed character can show up in the comic or whathaveyou).

Granted, that kind of thing would require funding that PWE probably doesn't want to spend, and with good reason. It's a risk, but if it paid off, then the game could be massively improved. You get a large influx of players and suddenly you have reason to work more in the game.

Being honest, I like the game as it is, and my thing is customization, so as long as that doesn't change, I'm golden. I would like them to revamp the start of the game a little bit, though. It used to be that at level 6 or so you could choose to stay in MC or go to Canada or the Desert. Now you're forced to stay in MC until level 16 or so, which makes starting new characters a bit tedious. I mean, I can hear Hi-Pan and Kevin Poe's dialogue in my head all the time now, it gets old.

The one thing I'd suggest that's probably never, ever gonna happen, is to get more translations to the game. If this thing had an option for spanish language I alone could bring dozens more players.

The IP has been around since 1981.

There have been Champions comic books. Several attempts have been made by multiple companies to make the franchise into a hit comic.
Why should a game company think that they could make it work when actual comic companies have failed?

If the property has struggled to succeed in the market that should be most welcoming to it's expansion then why would anyone think that even further expansion will succeed?

Do you hear anyone clamoring for Champions action figures?
How many superhero novels are out there now? I don't recall Marvel or DC promoting any recently, so if there was a market for it why wouldn't they be involved?

I am not talking about some occasional "deconstruction" or "rewriting" of the genre, I mean some sort of sustainable series of novels featuring superheroic action. That's what you want, right? That's what would help "sell the game", right?
A novel set in the Champions universe is not the place for some author to take a serious look at superheroes/super powers and what sort of impact on societal norms they may have, and such a thing wouldn't help sell the game, anyway.

How much does it cost to make a cartoon? Let's say 8 episodes to fit into a 30 minute slot (so assuming commercials ~23 minutes each)?
Where is the show going to air? Think carefully there.... Marvel and DC have connections to a lot of television networks and they have no reason to air such a thing.

And for what? Ultimately what? A small chance at attracting new players?

How many new players? How much money do they spend? How long do they stick around?

The game is old. It might be able to chug along for several more years, but there is zero reason to believe that there is any chance for some great event to occur where suddenly this is the game everyone is playing.

dreadjaws2 · October 2017

mithrosnomore said:

A bunch of "expertise" by a "genius" in "marketing", apparently.

This is the kind of self-defeating attitude that never leads anywhere. Thinking exclusively of the negative possibilities is a very good way to never get anything done. You're also ignoring the very simple fact that fame doesn't come from nowhere. Marvel and DC haven't existed since the dawn of time, at some point they were new, and surely even back then there was someone like you saying they'd never amount to anything because they weren't based on something already famous. You don't need a product to be based on an established franchise in order to make money. You just need your product to be good and properly promoted.

Worse, you're taking an incredibly long text just to merely repeat what I already said with one short sentence: It's a risk.

nepht · October 2017

jonsills said:

nepht said:
You guys are all dumb. I can fling toilet systems at furries. BEST. GAME. EVER.
And I can do it as a robot with a TV for a head, an undead homage to Deadpool, or a man dressed in nothing but a cape, boots, gloves, and the tiniest banana hammock I could find in the Costume Creator.

What more can one ask for from an MMO?

All this. I switch my brain off when playing CO because its stupid fun. If I want to think while I play games I fire up a Total War. PWE is handling CO fine they stepped in when Atari was about to can it and here we are 6 years later still playing the game.

wrathsoul1 · October 2017

It was good while I played it, but now, tempting as it may be to get back, there weren't any big changes, so I'll hold off.

markhawkman · October 2017

Define "big changes"....

chaelk · October 2017

so, how about the op settles it by writing to PWE management and asking them. After all, they are the ones who know what is going on and why.
Keep it polite.
outline all the arguments for and against and ask if you can have a response.
You never know they might answer.

wrathsoul1 · October 2017

markhawkman said:
Define "big changes"....

New areas, nemesis overhauls, new powersets, new bosses, maybe new hideouts. That sort of thing.

spinnytop · October 2017

wrathsoul1 said:
New areas, ~~nemesis overhauls~~, new powers~~ets~~, new bosses, ~~maybe new hideouts.~~ That sort of thing.

mithrosnomore · October 2017

dreadjaws2 said:

mithrosnomore said:

A bunch of "expertise" by a "genius" in "marketing", apparently.
This is the kind of self-defeating attitude that never leads anywhere. Thinking exclusively of the negative possibilities is a very good way to never get anything done. You're also ignoring the very simple fact that fame doesn't come from nowhere. Marvel and DC haven't existed since the dawn of time, at some point they were new, and surely even back then there was someone like you saying they'd never amount to anything because they weren't based on something already famous. You don't need a product to be based on an established franchise in order to make money. You just need your product to be good and properly promoted.

Worse, you're taking an incredibly long text just to merely repeat what I already said with one short sentence: It's a risk.

As tempting as it was to replace what you said as you replaced my words, I won't.
I think that your words serve to show people just what a shallow thinker you are.

No, Marvel and DC have not been around forever.
But they are also not in the MMO market. A market that is not exactly at an all-time peak and that provides a product that typically sees growth early in a products life and then a decline with occasional spikes (around new content releases and possibly certain in-game "events").

Marvel and DC are making comics books. They have been bought by companies that are much more involved in a broader entertainment business.

That means that they have a lot of knowledge about writing stories and marketing books that can, and has, been translated into novels. But not really recently. I would guess because their braintrust doesn't see a payoff.

That means that they have a lot of resources in the way of being able to make movies and cartoons and to get those things on the air.

What does PWE have? A background in MMOs.

Not books. Not movies. Not action figures.

You think that I have no expertise? That I am no genius, marketing or otherwise?

Then tell me what your credentials are.

How many bestselling novels have you written? How many action figure lines have you developed and gotten to market?
What cartoons and movies have you written, directed, animated and/or marketed?

Then shut up with the condescension.

I'll repeat these points and maybe they will sink in:

PWE is in the MMO business. Before they came along it was Cryptic working under Atari. They had people that knew MMOs.

This game was the finished product.

What has changed in the past 8 years to make you think that everything that they did in the past doesn't matter any more?
That there are a million+ people out there just waiting to jump into and spend money on this game if only it had... (insert your stupidly expensive pipe dream that has nothing to do with the actual product here)?

Why should they trust some random internet guy? Especially a random internet guy that is so willing to dismiss other people's opinions out of hand because they do not believe that anyone that disagrees with them has the "right experience"?

You are simply saying "You are not a marketing expert so you can not possibly know if these ideas would work or not" all the while not knowing what experience that person may or may not have, and almost certainly lacking any such experience that would meet your own criteria if the positions were reversed.

In other words, you discount any qualifications of people that disagree but have no qualifications of your own making you a competent judge.

Action figures?
Seriously?

You think that some toy store is going to make room on their shelves for a bunch of superhero figures that no kid recognizes?
Maybe if they are super-cheap someone might find some room, but it would hardly be a major outlet.

Or do you just plan on going the "direct sales" route with the idea being that all the players will be waiting to order them through their comic store? That there are enough players with enough disposable cash and a collecting habit that they will make it worthwhile to sell action figures to them?

Comics? I already told you that they have had multiple Champions comics launch since 1981. And every time the series was cancelled.

But this time will be different, right? Because you and you only are an expert? Spare me.

I do not have to be an expert in marketing novels because I trust that the experts would be doing it if there was a market, and if the Avengers and Justice League and X-Men, if Iron Man and Batman and Wolverine, are not selling novels then it's a damned safe bet that Defender, Nighthawk, and Dr. Silverback won't either.

Comics are not exactly in the healthiest state that they have ever been so why would a company pay PWE/Cryptic for the use of these characters? What is it about them or the setting that makes it so great?

Because you can not be arguing that the game is going to be giving that comic some huge built-in audience.

Heck, I don't think that WoW even has a comic any more.

What the Community Thinks about PWE and their Handling of the Champions Franchise.

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