It would be nice if there could be content that is both challenging and "bring whatever you want". Of course how do you design content that works if 70% of the group is healers, and if 70% of the group is tanks, and if everyone just brings a dps, and still remains challenging for a group that organizes and balances their roles to be just right for the encounter. Personally I think we need more fights that are about fighting a large group of stuff, like a literal army of Viper soldiers, but everyone always hates those kinds of ideas o3o
During my very first foray into cosmics (which just had to be Eido), a veteran in public chat called me out for using Earth powers and told me to sit out.
It turns out that the problem that veteran had with me wasn't to do with the fact that I was using Earth powers, but because I wasn't hugging myself more closely to healers. Granted I was a cosmic newbie trying to get a sense of things and admittedly I was slow to get a grasp of things, but that call out was no less disheartening.
Another time even after revising build that I've focused on building for cosmics to meet that 200k score, managing to go even higher than that, I was told by another veteran that meeting the 200k score was no indication of contribution to the fight. That was certainly motivating.
Then there are the times during cosmic fights where people are calling out the "casuals" when the fight isn't going well, and start demanding DPS checks even when people answer to the call of needing more people at the particular cosmic fight at the time, only to start getting singled out for supposedly screwing things up.
At that point I decided I was done with cosmics and moved on to other things. I understand that cosmics are supposed to be the most challenging fights and a high caliber of player and build are expected. I understand that instances of players losing their **** at others is expected because mistakes are much less forgivable for cosmics compared to other content. I just prefer to have a more positive game experience without having to deal with the crap that happens during the fights now and then.
Something can be done about the liason NPC that gives the cosmic daily missions, to better introduce players who would be trying out cosmics for the first time, at least giving them some information of what to expect. Cosmics are equivalent to raids from other MMOs and since it isn't reasonable to implement some sort of gear / build gating system like those MMOs do due to the freeform nature of CO's character building, then at least have some form of ingame tutorial to better equip the players, rather than just giving them the mission while they're clueless and practically saying "Good luck, stupid!".
And I still would like to see legacy content get a revamp in the near future, to get reward updates; something along the lines of getting merit rewards for completing a chain of missions for e.g.
An unfortunate problem with the cosmic fights is that they're long on "do this right or everyone fails" and short on "do this right or you fail". The first leads to a lot more hostility than the second. You need some of the former, but the ratio is off.
For example, consider Kigatilik. If you die, you make it substantially harder for everyone (you heal Kiga by hundreds of thousands and give him 8s of taking about half damage from all attacks, worth another few hundred thousand), but it doesn't actually cost you very much (tens of thousands, maybe). Rebalancing personal cost vs cost to group would help.
An unfortunate problem with the cosmic fights is that they're long on "do this right or everyone fails" and short on "do this right or you fail". The first leads to a lot more hostility than the second. You need some of the former, but the ratio is off.
For example, consider Kigatilik. If you die, you make it substantially harder for everyone (you heal Kiga by hundreds of thousands and give him 8s of taking about half damage from all attacks, worth another few hundred thousand), but it doesn't actually cost you very much (tens of thousands, maybe). Rebalancing personal cost vs cost to group would help.
This is an excellent observation. I agree completely.
Even if it's just your score taking a beating, I think the punishment would be fair. Didn't get your GCR? Shouldn't have died so much. Shouldn't have hit them hearts. Shoulda done more DPS. Work on your knowledge of the fight, slot some better mods, talk to people, get advice.
There's a lot going with the Kiga fight that I don't think that the mechanic of Kiga getting healed from player deaths adds anything that's significantly challenging nor is it necessary to have. There's already the prerequisite of having to deal with the dogs before the actual Kiga fight can begin. There are still the tombs to deal with. A similar boss fight in some single player game where it gets healed because of player screw-ups rightfully puts all the blame on that player. For Kiga it just works to encourage other players in the group to launch angry, sometimes abusive verbal tirades towards that particular player.
It's probably not possible, though; "difficult" and "can be done by a random PUG" are mostly incompatible (and isn't new to Cosmics, try PUGing Fire and Ice). This isn't even elitist, "the character this fight currently needs isn't the character I most want to play" happens to the 'elites' too.
Fire and Ice have role requirements but the PUG queue does not try to fill them like dungeon finders in most other MMOs do. It can be done by a PUG if you get the required roles. It's not about being difficult, it's about the queue not working as needed.
Oh, Eidolon. Per character 50 kill perk reward + specific roles needed. Doesn't take much to see how these things are stupid when paired together. If you normally go on a tank and are still working towards that kill reward and the fight doesn't need a tank, both of your options suck. You can switch characters, screwing yourself out of getting another kill for the perk. That sucks. You can keep your tank and have some muppet chide you for having the "wrong" character role. That sucks. The fight hasn't even started yet and already has a very obvious issue that didn't ever need to exist.
DPS, in general, is heavily emphasized in CO. Lots of timers. Fights dragging on. Checks. It doesn't help that a big chunk of content can be done with high dps and no tanks or healers. Even tanking is a good deal about doing enough damage. Content isn't about skill at that point.
Population is so low that if a Cosmic is up during an Event, the event usually doesn't go anywhere because required roles can't be filled.
There are really only two types of answer you can give to my question, one specifically explaining how you can have endless fun doing the same thing over and over; the other claiming you cannot have fun doing the same thing over and over, and that it will eventually get boring.
And the first answer is the one I gave you: Do things you enjoy, and then you'll have fun doing them over and over. That's what I did, and I'm sure if you try hard enough you can do it too.
So you're essentially saying you don't know how, you're just doing what you want to do. Doing what you want to do doesn't answer how doing something specific can be made fun perpetually; which is the question being asked.
If i had asked just "how do you have fun?", your answer would be vague, but it would make sense. Although there is no point pursuing this further since you're probably not going to answer any differently despite how thoroughly i clarify the question.
The point of the question was to demonstrate that repeating the same thing over and over will eventually get boring, especially if nothing new is added to the mix.
Fire and Ice have role requirements but the PUG queue does not try to fill them like dungeon finders in most other MMOs do. It can be done by a PUG if you get the required roles.
I was responding to a post about having everyone be accepted (and, presumably, useful). That doesn't mean "accepted if you fit a role", that means "accepted regardless of your role". That's the equivalent of the random PUGs CO generates from its queue system.
As for why CO doesn't try to fill roles, some of that can be blamed on the queues being a hack job based on the old PvP queues, but even if that weren't the case, it's not terribly easy to compute exactly what role a given (freeform) character fills.
You guys haven't noticed the low population the game has?
Let me check something
Number of Players in Cosmic HQ chat: 1233
Number of Players in Super Special Awesome "L33t" socks chat: 89
HMMMMMMMM'S'T
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I was responding to a post about having everyone be accepted (and, presumably, useful). That doesn't mean "accepted if you fit a role", that means "accepted regardless of your role". That's the equivalent of the random PUGs CO generates from its queue system.
The comparisons you made aren't the same. Most people don't care what the other toons are as long as there is a Frosty tank and their healer. Both roles can be replaced with a Sniper Soldier. That's very lax on requirements. Cosmics can easily venture into "not dps enough" territory. Especially when you get to Eidolon. Bringing an extra tank into F&I is fine. Having an extra healer, pet master, hybrid, whatever is also fine. Outside of one minor issue, F&I ends up being fairly accepting. The fight is far more about the mechanics than shoving in arbitrary role "need". Plus, switching doesn't penalize people in F&I since tokens are account bound. That also makes content more accepting.
The whole post was talking about my point, not just the thing you quoted.
The comparisons you made aren't the same. Most people don't care what the other toons are as long as there is a Frosty tank and their healer.
That's because F&I is extremely easy for most of the characters; it's a 10 man rampage that can fairly easily be done by 4 (tank, healer, two dps) so everyone else can be totally useless and NBD.
Number of Players in Super Special Awesome "L33t" socks chat: 89
HMMMMMMMM'S'T
Number of people on Cosmic HQ on any given day: around 80.
Number of those people that typically show up to a cosmic: around 40 if you're lucky. So one team's worth. Oh if only these people showed up with a quickness when someone says "Dino needs DPS". But they don't, do they?
That's because F&I is extremely easy for most of the characters; it's a 10 man rampage that can fairly easily be done by 4 (tank, healer, two dps) so everyone else can be totally useless and NBD
That's CO for you. Simulataneously too difficult and too easy, largely because of linear gameplay, shonky game mechanics and too many build choices.
Eva, nobody can tell you how to have fun. "Fun" is an intrinsically subjective phenomenon; even something that you enjoy right now might seem tiresome tomorrow.
All we can tell you is how we have fun. You can take that information how you will, but nobody can define "fun" for you.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Eva, nobody can tell you how to have fun. "Fun" is an intrinsically subjective phenomenon; even something that you enjoy right now might seem tiresome tomorrow.
All we can tell you is how we have fun. You can take that information how you will, but nobody can define "fun" for you.
They don't need to define fun, but simply find a way of avoiding the opposite of fun; which would be boredom. As i've already said, the point of the question was to show that repetition leads to inevitable boredom. I knew no one would be able to answer it because you will get bored by the very way the human brain works; some faster than others.
I can define fun, as can anyone else with a dictionary or a functioning internet connection. How to have fun is pretty much the same as avoiding boredom, and although we might all find different things enjoyable, mostly depending on our nurture filtering over our basic instincts; our brains are all pretty much the same. I'm saying this because if you closely observed your own thinking patterns, you could actually relay to others how to have fun. Of course you'd have to explain it in a manner they'd understand completely, and they'd have to emulate it with complete accuracy to get exactly the same results. Which of course means you'd have to understand it with complete accuracy to be able to relay it..
It is pretty much the same as communicating any other idea to another person. Of course this all only holds up if people's brains are biologically similar to eachother. Maybe someday in the future someone will show this to be untrue, but from what i've read and heard on the subject the consensus seems to be our brains are biologically quite similar from a person to person basis. The exception being someone who may have some kind of biological brain impairment, like brain damage for example.
This got way off-topic..But the point of that over explanation was to point out that you can probably tell people how to have fun if you explain it right.
That's because F&I is extremely easy for most of the characters; it's a 10 man rampage that can fairly easily be done by 4 (tank, healer, two dps) so everyone else can be totally useless and NBD
That's CO for you. Simulataneously too difficult and too easy, largely because of linear gameplay, shonky game mechanics and too many build choices.
Kind of like real life.
- - - - -
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Even at the Mega D / Mechanon event, we have people telling anyone not 40 to go away.
I've leveled 1 toon to 40 through event and I'm in the process of leveling another one and no one has told me to go away. In fact, I've had multiple instances of people inviting me to team so I can sidekick.
The only thing people ask is for people not doing the event to switch zone to allow other people who want to do the event in, which is a reasonably fair request since you can afk pretty much everywhere else.
See, Eva, when your question was answered, you denied that it was the answer. We don't all get bored by the same things, or at the same rate. I've been playing since Free For All started, and I still get a kick out of starting and leveling a new character. I try different powersets, or different combinations (a melee strength build with a Regen passive doesn't - can't - work the same way as a melee strength build with the more usual Defiance or Invulnerability, which is why I still have Bulwark running around). And I don't find it repetitious or boring in the least.
However, the phrasing of your question indicates that you find it boring and repetitious. And your reply to Spinny indicates that you don't believe that anyone exists who does not, despite the fact that two of us have responded to you. You haven't openly accused either of us of lying - quite - but you're not far short, to be frank.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
No I'm saying that you're being a knucklehead for continuing to ask a question that's already been answered. You're barking up a tree but the cat you were barking at left two barks ago.
Yeah. Imagine if those people only screwed themselves when they died, they'd probably put in more effort next time.
Unfortunately this would also make the cosmics even easier for the top players to carry people through. The idea behind one players mistake hurting others is that it creates a situation where the whole group has to perform up to a certain standard. Once you remove that you have to make the fights a lot more individually demanding because now instead of cosmic vs group, it's cosmic vs individual... and that means they have to take into account all the individuals that could be there and the cosmic has to be a threat to each and every one of them. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... they would need to make Cosmics that can make the top players sweat, which would mean that everyone else is now getting crushed unless they can somehow immediately raise themselves to the level of the pros.
With the way it is now, they don't have to do that because the top players can't guarantee success by just not screwing up themselves, and so the fight doesn't have to focus too much on the top players. Having them there can make things easier, but they can't do it for everyone else: everyone has to succeed, or nobody does.
Okay, then both. It can screw the run (hit the dogs, hit the hearts, etc.) but also ruin your score. "OMG I WAS HERE FOR FOUR HOURS WHY DON'T I GET DROPS!!!"
I will admit that it would probably be very entertaining watching people overreact to that. Someone dies too much on Kiga and then shows up to the next one in full Con gear, then complains they didn't get anything from Dino `w`
playing since mid 2011, to see how bored I am, please refer to my entry on the altaholics list last page. ALL 3 of my accts are on the list. I also prefer to try out new (and often weird) combinations. Like instead of getting the normal healer items, using a Lifedrain maintain build. Odd how there's so many of them at cosmic fights now. ---------- Yes I use oddball builds for Cosmics. ---------- Then we have the Warzone, designed for 40's and people complaining because they can't solo it. ------------- So who is volunteering to kidnap all the Devs off the other two games to get this work done?
I always thought Nemesis Confrontation should be a royal rumble.
Not sure how you are defining this, but to me there should be the gladiator fights (I mean, they're there, so may as well use them), then move to a mixed henchmen fight assisting some of the nemeses (say, three? Maybe even four?), and then a fight against Destroyer himself along with one or two other nemeses. If they wanted Destroyer to bolt after that fight and keep the final fight as it is then that would be fine.
Either way we would have a bigger supervillain fight than we have now.
Something sort of like Bunker Buster. You know? When Bunker Buster actually worked.
An unfortunate problem with the cosmic fights is that they're long on "do this right or everyone fails" and short on "do this right or you fail". The first leads to a lot more hostility than the second. You need some of the former, but the ratio is off.
For example, consider Kigatilik. If you die, you make it substantially harder for everyone (you heal Kiga by hundreds of thousands and give him 8s of taking about half damage from all attacks, worth another few hundred thousand), but it doesn't actually cost you very much (tens of thousands, maybe). Rebalancing personal cost vs cost to group would help.
Yeah, but the only real drawback to dying in the game is a loss of stars. There's no gear repair or anything like that, even though a reputation (Read: Influence) hit might be appropriate. In the open missions there is a score to worry about, though, so penalizing the scores a lot more severely for dying might be worth looking at, but I have no idea what might be appropriate there.
Population is so low that if a Cosmic is up during an Event, the event usually doesn't go anywhere because required roles can't be filled.
I guess I am mostly just dipping back here for the anniversary stuff, so now that that is over I will be taking another break before coming back again for however long in a few months, and while it wasn't a big deal to me at this point in time, I did not see any advertising for any Eidolon runs while the anniversary was going on.
I am not sure about how many Mega-D fights were put on hold for Kiga, Ape, or Dino, but those were usually pretty quick, at least once formed.
Even at the Mega D / Mechanon event, we have people telling anyone not 40 to go away.
I've leveled 1 toon to 40 through event and I'm in the process of leveling another one and no one has told me to go away. In fact, I've had multiple instances of people inviting me to team so I can sidekick.
yeah I did that a lot. Some newbies even asked me why it was needed. So I explained that it meant killing the Megas faster That seemed to get the point across.
The only thing people ask is for people not doing the event to switch zone to allow other people who want to do the event in, which is a reasonably fair request since you can afk pretty much everywhere else.
I sometimes wish there was a button to teleport everyone in zone to the HQ building.
See, Eva, when your question was answered, you denied that it was the answer. We don't all get bored by the same things, or at the same rate. I've been playing since Free For All started, and I still get a kick out of starting and leveling a new character. I try different powersets, or different combinations (a melee strength build with a Regen passive doesn't - can't - work the same way as a melee strength build with the more usual Defiance or Invulnerability, which is why I still have Bulwark running around). And I don't find it repetitious or boring in the least.
However, the phrasing of your question indicates that you find it boring and repetitious. And your reply to Spinny indicates that you don't believe that anyone exists who does not, despite the fact that two of us have responded to you. You haven't openly accused either of us of lying - quite - but you're not far short, to be frank.
Okay, I'm aware not everyone is bored of it; my point is that they will become bored of it eventually. How many who are currently bored include those in this thread asking for more content, and those who've already left champions online. I don't have the exact numbers of course, but anyone with eyes can see the population is very much diminished from what it once was.
Also, I never denied the answer, I merely explained that it wasn't really in context of the question, I also went to great lengths to specifically explain why. If someone asked you what your favorite colour was, and you answered "strawberries"; would that really be a satisfactory answer? Perhaps if you were trying to determine the mental health of the person you're asking, but otherwise you'd likely interpret it as an avoidance of the question altogether; which is exactly what happened.
I was pretty thorough in my explanation the first time, I'm surprised i'm having to repeat myself so often.
Also, i'm not accusing anyone of lying either, there will be some who do still enjoy what is on offer. I'd be more inclined to believe they're in the minority given the population of the game though.
No I'm saying that you're being a knucklehead for continuing to ask a question that's already been answered. You're barking up a tree but the cat you were barking at left two barks ago.
Yes, it has been answered out of the context of the question.
And as far as I can tell, the cat is still there and it is currently claiming i'm a "knucklehead" for pointing that out.
I can define fun, as can anyone else with a dictionary or a functioning internet connection.
I can define the word "tasty", but if you asked me "how can you avoid not enjoying your meals?" I could not tell you which foods to seek out, because what I think tastes good, you might find yucky. The only thing I could tell you is "Eat things that taste good to you".
I'm sure you've eaten tasty foods. So, do you have a more sophisticated way to explain to people how to avoid not enjoying their meals that is guaranteed to work for everyone?
I can define the word "tasty", but if you asked me "how can you avoid not enjoying your meals?" I could not tell you which foods to seek out, because what I think tastes good, you might find yucky. The only thing I could tell you is "Eat things that taste good to you".
hmm... let's do a quick comparative taste analysis. Start by eating a pineapple, pepperoni and jalepeno pizza.
preferably in that order, because if you start with the jalapenos, you won't be tasting anything else for the next several minutes unless your tastebuds are used to hotter stuff
I can define fun, as can anyone else with a dictionary or a functioning internet connection.
I can define the word "tasty", but if you asked me "how can you avoid not enjoying your meals?" I could not tell you which foods to seek out, because what I think tastes good, you might find yucky. The only thing I could tell you is "Eat things that taste good to you".
I'm sure you've eaten tasty foods. So, do you have a more sophisticated way to explain to people how to avoid not enjoying their meals that is guaranteed to work for everyone?
preferably in that order, because if you start with the jalapenos, you won't be tasting anything else for the next several minutes unless your tastebuds are used to hotter stuff
I like the Volcano Burger, but I personally know better than to expect everyone to. And yes I've done a similar experiment before, just with actual pizza, and less methodical documentation of results.
unless this theoretical 'volcano burger' has ghost peppers on it, i would have no trouble eating one
and even if it does, i'd still have no trouble, but i would need a large amount of water or milk handy; i used to routinely eat fiery ghost burgers at red robin whenever i went there, and those do have ghost peppers in them
I don't actually remember. I ate one at a restaurant in Texas several years ago, and the main thing I remember was how flavorful the sauce was. Well, that and it had sliced peppers instead of pickles. I think it took an hour or so for my tastebuds to stop tingling. Delicious. ^_^
I can define fun, as can anyone else with a dictionary or a functioning internet connection.
I can define the word "tasty", but if you asked me "how can you avoid not enjoying your meals?" I could not tell you which foods to seek out, because what I think tastes good, you might find yucky. The only thing I could tell you is "Eat things that taste good to you".
I'm sure you've eaten tasty foods. So, do you have a more sophisticated way to explain to people how to avoid not enjoying their meals that is guaranteed to work for everyone?
So you're unable to answer the question i asked (in context) because we all enjoy different things differently? The purpose of the question i asked was to point out that we all eventually get bored of repeating the same thing over and over with no variation by the very nature of how the human brain functions..Me explaining how you can tell another person how to enjoy something isn't really relevant..But i'll do it anyway..
To say you can't explain to someone how they can enjoy something is the same as claiming people cannot alter their beliefs/outlook, and/or you cannot establish why it is you enjoy what you enjoy.
There are people who have gone from hating things, to loving them. That very fact means you can explain to someone how to enjoy something if you communicate it to them the right way. Whether or not they decide to condition themselves and implement your explanation is entirely up to them of course, but explaining it to them and communicating the idea is certainly possible.
But perhaps the problem is you don't know why it is you enjoy something, and so you're unable to communicate it. In that case the solution is pretty simple, and all you need to do is introspect. Just ask yourself why you enjoy what you enjoy and introspect.
Eva, your assumptions are not in accordance with reality. For instance, you presume that all human minds respond to all stimuli in the same fashion, a provably false assumption. You also assume that the nebulous concept of "enjoyment" can be communicated clearly to someone who does not share that enjoyment. Both spinny and I have explained to you what we enjoy about this game, and why we are not bored; you have insisted each time that we must tell you how to retain interest, which is not really a thing that can be done. Many have different interests; there are a number of people who keep playing only because of the sheer variety of characters they can create, and they may never take any given toon beyond level 6 (which is achieved by either finishing or bypassing the tutorial). Others play the Cosmics over and over, because they enjoy the challenge posed by the unusual gameplay required (at least as compared with the rest of the game - no matter how tough your toon is, you can't just steamroller over Kiga with zerg tactics). Others, like myself, enjoy creating and playing new combinations of powers and abilities. There's no single formula by which everyone may find pleasure in CO, and in fact there are also those who don't - players who tried the game for a while, got bored, and went to play something else. Perhaps that's your fate as well, perhaps not - only you can say.
But what you can't do is get any of us to tell you how to find your joy in this, because each of us finds it in such different fashions.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Eva, your assumptions are not in accordance with reality. For instance, you presume that all human minds respond to all stimuli in the same fashion, a provably false assumption.
Eva, your assumptions are not in accordance with reality. For instance, you presume that all human minds respond to all stimuli in the same fashion, a provably false assumption. You also assume that the nebulous concept of "enjoyment" can be communicated clearly to someone who does not share that enjoyment. Both spinny and I have explained to you what we enjoy about this game, and why we are not bored; you have insisted each time that we must tell you how to retain interest, which is not really a thing that can be done. Many have different interests; there are a number of people who keep playing only because of the sheer variety of characters they can create, and they may never take any given toon beyond level 6 (which is achieved by either finishing or bypassing the tutorial). Others play the Cosmics over and over, because they enjoy the challenge posed by the unusual gameplay required (at least as compared with the rest of the game - no matter how tough your toon is, you can't just steamroller over Kiga with zerg tactics). Others, like myself, enjoy creating and playing new combinations of powers and abilities. There's no single formula by which everyone may find pleasure in CO, and in fact there are also those who don't - players who tried the game for a while, got bored, and went to play something else. Perhaps that's your fate as well, perhaps not - only you can say.
But what you can't do is get any of us to tell you how to find your joy in this, because each of us finds it in such different fashions.
I never assumed all minds respond the same to the same stimuli, I said "if you communicate the idea to them in the right way" which means in accordance with the way they will understand the idea you're communicating. You've basically built a strawman because I never made a claim that everyone responds to stimuli in the same way.
What I said was there will be differences in response depending on nature and nurture. Nurture can be altered, nature cannot. The the nature aspect varies mildly person to person in regards to the topic of enjoyment. Human brains are all pretty similar from the very fact that we're all humans (note : I never claimed human brains were identical, only similar). An easy way to confirm this would be to take any other animal, and compare their brain to a human brain. You want a brain that biologically differs greatly? Try looking outside the species, you're going to see some huge differences there. That is an example of what I would describe as dissimilar. Our nurture can vary wildly though, but it is entirely alterable.
You then assume you can't communicate the concept of enjoyment to another person. Anyone can change a belief, because anyone can make a decision; as long as that is possible, what i'm saying is possible. To deny what i'm saying here is basically denying that people have the capacity to change. You must understand, when someone enjoys something there is a reason they enjoy it. It isn't unexplainable and requires some mild introspection to uncover the reason. Lets use one of your examples as a way to explain :
You enjoy creating characters in the game, all you have to do is examine why it is you enjoy that. Then when you know why you enjoy that, perhaps go a little deeper, and so on, by repeatedly asking yourself "why?" to the various answers that you uncover. There is actually a name for this technique called "5 whys", and it is used to find the root cause of something by repeatedly asking the question "why?".
So lets summarize everything. If human brains are similar, and we can alter our beliefs and outlook via the power of choice; and ideas can be found via introspection, and in turn communicated to another person in a way they understand, why is it such a stretch to think another person can emulate your method of enjoyment?
Also, I haven't insisted anything, I've just pointed out the question I asked was not answered in context; and provided various explanations along the way over several posts pointing out why things you're claiming to be impossible, are quite probably possible. I'm actually not interested in knowing how to enjoy the game, because the point of the question I asked (which I've already said so many times already) was to point out that everyone will eventually get bored of doing the same thing over and over by the very way the brain works.
So you're unable to answer the question i asked (in context)
I've answered your question several times, now I'd like you to answer mine.
I did. Perhaps you didn't read the entire post?
Me explaining how to explain to someone how to enjoy something you don't enjoy can be applied to something you do not enjoy the taste of. The one problem is, it isn't "guaranteed" to work on "everyone". It might work on everyone, but I'd never be able to guarantee it unless It was actually tested on everyone. What I could say is : it will likely work on everyone with a healthy normal functioning brain. It might not work on someone with one or more of many potentially possible biological brain impairments however.
Comments
It turns out that the problem that veteran had with me wasn't to do with the fact that I was using Earth powers, but because I wasn't hugging myself more closely to healers. Granted I was a cosmic newbie trying to get a sense of things and admittedly I was slow to get a grasp of things, but that call out was no less disheartening.
Another time even after revising build that I've focused on building for cosmics to meet that 200k score, managing to go even higher than that, I was told by another veteran that meeting the 200k score was no indication of contribution to the fight. That was certainly motivating.
Then there are the times during cosmic fights where people are calling out the "casuals" when the fight isn't going well, and start demanding DPS checks even when people answer to the call of needing more people at the particular cosmic fight at the time, only to start getting singled out for supposedly screwing things up.
At that point I decided I was done with cosmics and moved on to other things. I understand that cosmics are supposed to be the most challenging fights and a high caliber of player and build are expected. I understand that instances of players losing their **** at others is expected because mistakes are much less forgivable for cosmics compared to other content. I just prefer to have a more positive game experience without having to deal with the crap that happens during the fights now and then.
Something can be done about the liason NPC that gives the cosmic daily missions, to better introduce players who would be trying out cosmics for the first time, at least giving them some information of what to expect. Cosmics are equivalent to raids from other MMOs and since it isn't reasonable to implement some sort of gear / build gating system like those MMOs do due to the freeform nature of CO's character building, then at least have some form of ingame tutorial to better equip the players, rather than just giving them the mission while they're clueless and practically saying "Good luck, stupid!".
And I still would like to see legacy content get a revamp in the near future, to get reward updates; something along the lines of getting merit rewards for completing a chain of missions for e.g.
For example, consider Kigatilik. If you die, you make it substantially harder for everyone (you heal Kiga by hundreds of thousands and give him 8s of taking about half damage from all attacks, worth another few hundred thousand), but it doesn't actually cost you very much (tens of thousands, maybe). Rebalancing personal cost vs cost to group would help.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Even if it's just your score taking a beating, I think the punishment would be fair. Didn't get your GCR? Shouldn't have died so much. Shouldn't have hit them hearts. Shoulda done more DPS. Work on your knowledge of the fight, slot some better mods, talk to people, get advice.
Fire and Ice have role requirements but the PUG queue does not try to fill them like dungeon finders in most other MMOs do. It can be done by a PUG if you get the required roles. It's not about being difficult, it's about the queue not working as needed.
Oh, Eidolon. Per character 50 kill perk reward + specific roles needed. Doesn't take much to see how these things are stupid when paired together. If you normally go on a tank and are still working towards that kill reward and the fight doesn't need a tank, both of your options suck. You can switch characters, screwing yourself out of getting another kill for the perk. That sucks. You can keep your tank and have some muppet chide you for having the "wrong" character role. That sucks. The fight hasn't even started yet and already has a very obvious issue that didn't ever need to exist.
DPS, in general, is heavily emphasized in CO. Lots of timers. Fights dragging on. Checks. It doesn't help that a big chunk of content can be done with high dps and no tanks or healers. Even tanking is a good deal about doing enough damage. Content isn't about skill at that point.
Population is so low that if a Cosmic is up during an Event, the event usually doesn't go anywhere because required roles can't be filled.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
If i had asked just "how do you have fun?", your answer would be vague, but it would make sense. Although there is no point pursuing this further since you're probably not going to answer any differently despite how thoroughly i clarify the question.
The point of the question was to demonstrate that repeating the same thing over and over will eventually get boring, especially if nothing new is added to the mix.
As for why CO doesn't try to fill roles, some of that can be blamed on the queues being a hack job based on the old PvP queues, but even if that weren't the case, it's not terribly easy to compute exactly what role a given (freeform) character fills.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Number of Players in Cosmic HQ chat: 1233
Number of Players in Super Special Awesome "L33t" socks chat: 89
HMMMMMMMM'S'T
The comparisons you made aren't the same. Most people don't care what the other toons are as long as there is a Frosty tank and their healer. Both roles can be replaced with a Sniper Soldier. That's very lax on requirements. Cosmics can easily venture into "not dps enough" territory. Especially when you get to Eidolon. Bringing an extra tank into F&I is fine. Having an extra healer, pet master, hybrid, whatever is also fine. Outside of one minor issue, F&I ends up being fairly accepting. The fight is far more about the mechanics than shoving in arbitrary role "need". Plus, switching doesn't penalize people in F&I since tokens are account bound. That also makes content more accepting.
The whole post was talking about my point, not just the thing you quoted.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Number of those people that typically show up to a cosmic: around 40 if you're lucky. So one team's worth. Oh if only these people showed up with a quickness when someone says "Dino needs DPS". But they don't, do they?
baddeviantartpondersmileythatdoesntprovemypoint.png
That's CO for you. Simulataneously too difficult and too easy, largely because of linear gameplay, shonky game mechanics and too many build choices.
All we can tell you is how we have fun. You can take that information how you will, but nobody can define "fun" for you.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I can define fun, as can anyone else with a dictionary or a functioning internet connection. How to have fun is pretty much the same as avoiding boredom, and although we might all find different things enjoyable, mostly depending on our nurture filtering over our basic instincts; our brains are all pretty much the same. I'm saying this because if you closely observed your own thinking patterns, you could actually relay to others how to have fun. Of course you'd have to explain it in a manner they'd understand completely, and they'd have to emulate it with complete accuracy to get exactly the same results. Which of course means you'd have to understand it with complete accuracy to be able to relay it..
It is pretty much the same as communicating any other idea to another person. Of course this all only holds up if people's brains are biologically similar to eachother. Maybe someday in the future someone will show this to be untrue, but from what i've read and heard on the subject the consensus seems to be our brains are biologically quite similar from a person to person basis. The exception being someone who may have some kind of biological brain impairment, like brain damage for example.
This got way off-topic..But the point of that over explanation was to point out that you can probably tell people how to have fun if you explain it right.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
The only thing people ask is for people not doing the event to switch zone to allow other people who want to do the event in, which is a reasonably fair request since you can afk pretty much everywhere else.
However, the phrasing of your question indicates that you find it boring and repetitious. And your reply to Spinny indicates that you don't believe that anyone exists who does not, despite the fact that two of us have responded to you. You haven't openly accused either of us of lying - quite - but you're not far short, to be frank.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
With the way it is now, they don't have to do that because the top players can't guarantee success by just not screwing up themselves, and so the fight doesn't have to focus too much on the top players. Having them there can make things easier, but they can't do it for everyone else: everyone has to succeed, or nobody does.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I also prefer to try out new (and often weird) combinations.
Like instead of getting the normal healer items, using a Lifedrain maintain build.
Odd how there's so many of them at cosmic fights now.
----------
Yes I use oddball builds for Cosmics.
----------
Then we have the Warzone, designed for 40's and people complaining because they can't solo it.
-------------
So who is volunteering to kidnap all the Devs off the other two games to get this work done?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If they wanted Destroyer to bolt after that fight and keep the final fight as it is then that would be fine.
Either way we would have a bigger supervillain fight than we have now.
Something sort of like Bunker Buster. You know? When Bunker Buster actually worked.
Yeah, but the only real drawback to dying in the game is a loss of stars. There's no gear repair or anything like that, even though a reputation (Read: Influence) hit might be appropriate.
In the open missions there is a score to worry about, though, so penalizing the scores a lot more severely for dying might be worth looking at, but I have no idea what might be appropriate there. I guess I am mostly just dipping back here for the anniversary stuff, so now that that is over I will be taking another break before coming back again for however long in a few months, and while it wasn't a big deal to me at this point in time, I did not see any advertising for any Eidolon runs while the anniversary was going on.
I am not sure about how many Mega-D fights were put on hold for Kiga, Ape, or Dino, but those were usually pretty quick, at least once formed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
Also, I never denied the answer, I merely explained that it wasn't really in context of the question, I also went to great lengths to specifically explain why. If someone asked you what your favorite colour was, and you answered "strawberries"; would that really be a satisfactory answer? Perhaps if you were trying to determine the mental health of the person you're asking, but otherwise you'd likely interpret it as an avoidance of the question altogether; which is exactly what happened.
I was pretty thorough in my explanation the first time, I'm surprised i'm having to repeat myself so often.
Also, i'm not accusing anyone of lying either, there will be some who do still enjoy what is on offer. I'd be more inclined to believe they're in the minority given the population of the game though.
And as far as I can tell, the cat is still there and it is currently claiming i'm a "knucklehead" for pointing that out.
I'm sure you've eaten tasty foods. So, do you have a more sophisticated way to explain to people how to avoid not enjoying their meals that is guaranteed to work for everyone?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Like: Dislike: Uncertain: Should probably avoid eating a "Volcano Burger": I like the Volcano Burger, but I personally know better than to expect everyone to.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
and even if it does, i'd still have no trouble, but i would need a large amount of water or milk handy; i used to routinely eat fiery ghost burgers at red robin whenever i went there, and those do have ghost peppers in them
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
To say you can't explain to someone how they can enjoy something is the same as claiming people cannot alter their beliefs/outlook, and/or you cannot establish why it is you enjoy what you enjoy.
There are people who have gone from hating things, to loving them. That very fact means you can explain to someone how to enjoy something if you communicate it to them the right way. Whether or not they decide to condition themselves and implement your explanation is entirely up to them of course, but explaining it to them and communicating the idea is certainly possible.
But perhaps the problem is you don't know why it is you enjoy something, and so you're unable to communicate it. In that case the solution is pretty simple, and all you need to do is introspect. Just ask yourself why you enjoy what you enjoy and introspect.
But what you can't do is get any of us to tell you how to find your joy in this, because each of us finds it in such different fashions.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
What I said was there will be differences in response depending on nature and nurture. Nurture can be altered, nature cannot. The the nature aspect varies mildly person to person in regards to the topic of enjoyment. Human brains are all pretty similar from the very fact that we're all humans (note : I never claimed human brains were identical, only similar). An easy way to confirm this would be to take any other animal, and compare their brain to a human brain. You want a brain that biologically differs greatly? Try looking outside the species, you're going to see some huge differences there. That is an example of what I would describe as dissimilar. Our nurture can vary wildly though, but it is entirely alterable.
You then assume you can't communicate the concept of enjoyment to another person. Anyone can change a belief, because anyone can make a decision; as long as that is possible, what i'm saying is possible. To deny what i'm saying here is basically denying that people have the capacity to change. You must understand, when someone enjoys something there is a reason they enjoy it. It isn't unexplainable and requires some mild introspection to uncover the reason. Lets use one of your examples as a way to explain :
You enjoy creating characters in the game, all you have to do is examine why it is you enjoy that. Then when you know why you enjoy that, perhaps go a little deeper, and so on, by repeatedly asking yourself "why?" to the various answers that you uncover. There is actually a name for this technique called "5 whys", and it is used to find the root cause of something by repeatedly asking the question "why?".
So lets summarize everything. If human brains are similar, and we can alter our beliefs and outlook via the power of choice; and ideas can be found via introspection, and in turn communicated to another person in a way they understand, why is it such a stretch to think another person can emulate your method of enjoyment?
Also, I haven't insisted anything, I've just pointed out the question I asked was not answered in context; and provided various explanations along the way over several posts pointing out why things you're claiming to be impossible, are quite probably possible. I'm actually not interested in knowing how to enjoy the game, because the point of the question I asked (which I've already said so many times already) was to point out that everyone will eventually get bored of doing the same thing over and over by the very way the brain works.
Me explaining how to explain to someone how to enjoy something you don't enjoy can be applied to something you do not enjoy the taste of. The one problem is, it isn't "guaranteed" to work on "everyone". It might work on everyone, but I'd never be able to guarantee it unless It was actually tested on everyone. What I could say is : it will likely work on everyone with a healthy normal functioning brain. It might not work on someone with one or more of many potentially possible biological brain impairments however.