Also, most of my toons rely on AoEs, because there are a [i]lot[/i] of times in-game when I'm alone and being jumped by 3-6 mobs of the same level or higher and I have to take them down before they kill me. Apparently that's a Bad Thing for Cosmic fights too.
An interesting statement. I think this is borne out of the fact that you mainly do open world missions where you can just aoe everything down. That's how I would build too if all I did was those missions. Because I do content where the ability to quickly nuke down a single target can be very important, I have a bit more variety in how I build because I need more tactics to survive. But yeah as Panta pointed out, aoes aren't bad at cosmics so long as you're aware of what you're hitting. Don't mind the people screaming NO AOES ( haven't noticed them for quite a while actually ). I mean hell, my PA uses aoes constantly, so if "Aoes are bad and not allowed!" were true, my PA wouldn't be allowed... and she does the Eido!
As for pet masters, as Panta pointed out, pets suck... like their AI and the fact that they suck up aura slots. For our current endgame content to accept our current pets they would basically need to be made so that we could have a large group of insane morons there just randomly attacking everything in sight... because that's what pets basically are. Personally I think pets could be a lot better than their current "swarm of bees" implementation overall. I've never found pet master characters very interesting personally because there isn't much for me to do with pets... just summon them and then play as usual.
The good old Hybrid characters using Invulnerability to survive or AoPM for energy for leveling are not so useful, and can even be down right detrimental to group success in end game.
Those hybrid characters should consider tanking... they already have the passive for it
Those characters using AoPM for energy are being silly and could easily meet their energy needs without it ~3~ quite silly indeed!
Right, but that doesn't answer the question i put forward. I said "how do you not get bored of doing the same thing over and over", in regards to champions online, that is all there is. Answering with "spend your time doing things you enjoy" evades the question entirely, I'm asking how you extract fun from repeating the same task over and over.
The answer? You can't. It will get emotionally less resonant the more time you spend repeating said task. Hence the issue with champions online, and the reason this thread exists. If we could endlessly enjoy something without getting bored, there would be no need for the majority of the content we currently have; we could just have one mission and that would satisfy us. But it doesn't.
well, if people keep bringing it up, maybe they'll eventually move power coloring from sub status to freeform slots - of course, PWE will then shut the game down a week later
AAAAAAAH This again
yes because people go Gold/Lifetimer ONLY for power colouring and not for all the other cool features they get (Monthly Zen, Special Costumes, Free Retcons, unlimited FF access, VIP locations, PTS access e.t.c)
Letting silvers have an choice to have access to that feature would be such a Tragic blow to their Premium privilages, OH THE HUMANITY
and you can give Power colouring to silver members with a special token in Z store, just like they with the resource cap increase and the FF slot
They don't have to give it for free, they can play smart and have it as a zstore feature to make money out of it
Even better? have it Character unlock feature instead of account wide like Aura Slots
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Then please share your secret. How do you stop the brain getting bored of repeating the same thing over and over?
Oh, that's easy. I don't consider myself doing the same thing over and over. I'm an altaholic and all my characters play differently (intentionally) so each time is somewhat of a new experience (added to the "there's different players in this one", so it plays out differently).
Right, then you're not doing the same thing over and over, you're doing different things each time.
Another problem with this, it relies on the player to make alts to have fun. Not everyone likes making alts, and on top of that, the gearing process for each individual alt is still extremely repetitive. It doesn't resolve the issue of the extreme lack of content in regards to PVE.
Right, but that doesn't answer the question i put forward. I said "how do you not get bored of doing the same thing over and over", in regards to champions online, that is all there is. Answering with "spend your time doing things you enjoy" evades the question entirely, I'm asking how you extract fun from repeating the same task over and over.
The answer? You can't. It will get emotionally less resonant the more time you spend repeating said task. Hence the issue with champions online, and the reason this thread exists. If we could endlessly enjoy something without getting bored, there would be no need for the majority of the content we currently have; we could just have one mission and that would satisfy us. But it doesn't.
I answered your question in the most direct and honest way possible. I enjoy doing the things I do in Champions Online, hence I don't get bored of doing them. That's all there is to it. Sure, maybe some day I'll get bored of doing Grab alerts... but I haven't yet, and I've been doing them since On Alert. I'll let you know when it happens tho so you can do a little jig about how "you were right after all".
Find something you like and do it, and stop worrying about trying to enjoy the things you don't enjoy.
Eh, weren't we informed that this is more of a tech issue than anything? I remember hearing something about them trying to make coloring more widely available but it just wouldn't work. Might be one of those things where they need a programmer who can actually crack open the engine and make some deep nasty changes without breaking everything. Wouldn't surprise me if when they converted the game to its F2P form that they just hard coded power coloring to be as it is and that it's not something easily changed.
that's why i said that when they finally make the transition, PWE will shut the game down a week later - because it will take that long to actually GET power coloring tied to freeform slots
I suppose we could have a discussion about whether it's elitist or pragmatic to bar hybrids from Eidolon. The fight is super hard and a sub-optimal character will make it harder due to scaling. Either word you choose, though, it doesn't matter. The end result is that Eidolon runs are always "only bring your BEST dps that IS IN DPS ROLE and has a DPS PASSIVE." That is super excluding lots of people and even though I think I do okay DPS, I feel bad showing up because I'm only sporting rank 7 mods sometimes. I don't know for sure if I fit the bill or if I'm helping more than I'm hurting. This kind of thing is not the kind of thing you want in a social environment. You want to be inclusive not exclusive. This game sadly has ventured (in a very small amount of places) into exclusivity.
That's depressing. And it's most of the reason why I don't like content created this way. Devs know full well the way they implement content effects how players treat each other. Having r9 mods over r7 doesn't make a player more skilled or better at playing their character, but it does mean ending a fight faster due to arbitrary time limits that really don't make sense or to simply not drag out the annoying parts of the fight. Games are great at exploiting players' dissatisfaction with their lives and that sucks.
That's depressing. And it's most of the reason why I don't like content created this way. Devs know full well the way they implement content effects how players treat each other. Having r9 mods over r7 doesn't make a player more skilled or better at playing their character, but it does mean ending a fight faster due to arbitrary time limits that really don't make sense or to simply not drag out the annoying parts of the fight. Games are great at exploiting players' dissatisfaction with their lives and that sucks.
Anyone who thinks r9 mods let you end a fight significantly faster than r7 mods doesn't do numbers good u3u I can assure you that in the secret elite shadow society nobody is going "hey get that r7 noob outta here, we gotta bring in a r9er".
... I do cosmics with characters with rank 5 mods and they are doing fine both in damage and survability
rank 9 is a joke, you don't need them
I get good damage on characters who have Mercenary/Qliphothic gear, even 15k on critical
so gear, is irrelevant
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I wouldn't mind having AoPM's support portion removed and turned into it's own Support Aura actually, that way AoPM could be more of a Hybrid role self buff (possible minor paranormal resist) passive and the Support Aura could be similar but obviously work to mostly support others.
That or make it function the same in every role except support?
... I do cosmics with characters with rank 5 mods and they are doing fine both in damage and survability
rank 9 is a joke, you don't need them
I get good damage on characters who have Mercenary/Qliphothic gear, even 15k on critical
so gear, is irrelevant
But I'm betting you know how to build a good build. Could you say the same as an Inventor or other archetype? I think you're saying gear is irrelevant for you. And still this is missing the other point about only the most optimized dps being called to eidolon, who must be this tall to ride this roller coaster. The game punishes the whole group if a suboptimal character shows up, same as in Dino. I get the reasoning behind the mechanics for the cosmics, but it's kinda shortsighted. They should have learned from Dino that bringing suboptimal characters to something like this breeds one of the more toxic social environments in the game.
As long as there are any players or characters at all that are excluded from certain content, there's an issue that needs to be fixed. We should start with pet builds. (And I want to make it clear I have no dog in this fight since I never made a pet build cuz I like to punch stuff.)
Also I guess I was wrong about the active offenses. I thought ego surge was one of the only non-range/melee dependent actives that could go with basically any build. Stuff like lock n load I thought primarily buffs ranged attacks so is that still good to take as a theme-neutral active offense if you're pure melee? Which others are theme-neutral and buff range and melee equally? I ask because I haven't bothered to switch out of ego surge for any of my builds yet.
I usually build with two active offenses and for my punchy characters aggressor is one of them. Now that ego surge ain't king, what's the best other one to have?
Also I guess I was wrong about the active offenses. I thought ego surge was one of the only non-range/melee dependent actives that could go with basically any build. Stuff like lock n load I thought primarily buffs ranged attacks so is that still good to take as a theme-neutral active offense if you're pure melee? Which others are theme-neutral and buff range and melee equally? I ask because I haven't bothered to switch out of ego surge for any of my builds yet.
ALL AOs buff both melee and range damage equally, none is exlusive to range or melee
and my favorite AOs to use are
Imbue (its more balanced of Nimble Mind Surge honestly, the critical chance and severity it gives is very good) Lock N Load and Ice Sheath (for elemental builds especially)
Im still old fashioned and use Intensity on my MA builds and Enraged for enrage/aspect of bestial
Fire, Electric and Darkness AOs are the only AOs i refuse to use due to the aura hijack (like ego surge)
Electric Sheath however has a really useful adv
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Then please share your secret. How do you stop the brain getting bored of repeating the same thing over and over?
Oh, that's easy. I don't consider myself doing the same thing over and over. I'm an altaholic and all my characters play differently (intentionally) so each time is somewhat of a new experience (added to the "there's different players in this one", so it plays out differently).
Right, then you're not doing the same thing over and over, you're doing different things each time.
Another problem with this, it relies on the player to make alts to have fun. Not everyone likes making alts, and on top of that, the gearing process for each individual alt is still extremely repetitive. It doesn't resolve the issue of the extreme lack of content in regards to PVE.
You asked how I don't get bored. I told you. Doesn't mean what works for me will work for you. I wasn't offering it as a solution to the content issues. Just alluding to the fact that MMOs are going to draw people with widely varied methods and motives. It's tough to say what's best when everyone has a different POV.
I wouldn't mind having AoPM's support portion removed and turned into it's own Support Aura actually, that way AoPM could be more of a Hybrid role self buff (possible minor paranormal resist) passive and the Support Aura could be similar but obviously work to mostly support others.
That or make it function the same in every role except support?
I imagine it is quite difficult to balance a passive which could be used in every single role.
However, I'd be more inclined to have AoPM changed more radically in that, if it DID become a multi role passive like Congress of Selves, it would change its attributes depending on the role it was in.
Just a weird thought that popped into my head...
Note: There is nothing to suggest that there will be any changes to AoPM, this is just part of a discussion.
Anyway, here's a very rough idea:
Aura of Primal Majesty is the base passive, switching roles with this passive adjusts it as it exchanges new attributes for its old ones.
Aura of Primal Majesty (Hybrid Role)
- Self Stat Buff (as currently but with a few more stat points granted) - Minor additional Paranormal Damage Resistance (possibly fixed values 15% /20 %/25%) - Self Paranormal Damage boost (possibly fixed values 10% / 15% / 20%)
Aura of Primal Protection (Tank Role)
- Self Stat Buff (two thirds of that Hybrid Role grants) - Additional Paranormal Damage Resistance (30% /40% /50%) - Self Threat Buff (Threat modifier which applies to all forms of damage and healing you do)
Aura of Primal Rage (Melee DPS Role)
- Self Stat Buff (Half of that Hybrid Role grants) - Additional Paranormal Melee Damage Boost (possibly fixed values 20% / 25% / 30%) - Chance for Dodge/Avoidance ratings to hit (20% additional dodge & 30% additional avoidance) at low health.
Aura of Primal Assault (Ranged DPS Role)
- Self Stat Buff (Half of that Hybrid Role grants) - Additional Paranormal Ranged Damage Boost (possibly fixed values 20% / 25% / 30%) - Chance for Damage Shield to apply to self at low health (1500 total damage absorb, shield vanishes once amount is reached or you reach 75% HP)
Aura of Primal Support (Support Role)
- Self Stat Buff (Half of that Hybrid Role grants) - Other Stat Buff (as currently but slightly more potent) - Chance for self-rezzes to reset cool down if you die within 15 seconds of having self-rezzed.
It used to be the sorcery aura passives did not have a difference between support and hybrid. Since the team buff aspect was always buffed by Pre and not changed by role, it made support in hybrid a fine alternative.
None of the other slotted passives are "nerfed" when you stick them in hybrid role. Unstoppable doesn't give you less melee damage if you switch to hybrid. Defiant does not give you a lower per stack defense if you switch to hybrid. Why the hell the sorcery auras do that for the support effect is idiotic especially since all of the auras are out-shadowed in damage gained from offense passives. You can't gain the damage boost from DPS role with sorcery auras and most dps builds aren't using Pre.
Why would you use an Offensive passive in Hybrid role in the first place? You are nerfing your self and losing that sweet 125% damage from Melee/Range role
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Why would you use an Offensive passive in Hybrid role in the first place?
You are nerfing your self and losing that sweet 125% damage from Melee/Range role
1 ) It is still an option and how good that option is depends on your build and how it is set up. It's one of those things that has to do with creativity and theme that people like this game for.
2 ) That wasn't the point. Offense and Defense passives do not have their primary abilities reduced just because you switch roles.
I am writing to throw my voice in on this one - It seems like in the almost 6 years or so that my character Thradius (and others) have been around, virtually no new story archs or content have been added.
I, for one, would like to see this change - perhaps with some new mechanics, or at least, an expansion pack?
1 ) It is still an option and how good that option is depends on your build and how it is set up. It's one of those things that has to do with creativity and theme that people like this game for.
2 ) That wasn't the point. Offense and Defense passives do not have their primary abilities reduced just because you switch roles.
Roles aren't really about creativity and theme, since they have absolutely no visible effects, they're just mechanical bonuses. As for support auras, their effects on others is reduced in hybrid. Effect on self is increased. Which, if you assume that the point of hybrid builds is soloing, makes some sense.
Roles aren't really about creativity and theme, since they have absolutely no visible effects, they're just mechanical bonuses. As for support auras, their effects on others is reduced in hybrid. Effect on self is increased. Which, if you assume that the point of hybrid builds is soloing, makes some sense.
I could build a dps toon with a dps passive that switches to hybrid for more aggro to tank. There is a tanking tree that also boosts aggro when in hybrid. Yes, it is about letting people have options and doing something other than the *icator meta if they want to.
And yes, I know how sorcery auras work now. They did not always work that way. The actual supporting part was not reduced when switching to hybrid once upon a time. I know, because I had a support toon that rolled in hybrid so I didn't have to deal with the HP loss. Only support sorcery auras are losing their primary purpose (supporting) when switching to hybrid. Something that none of the offense or defense passives do.
You guys are complaining that your jack of all trades hybrid toon cannot outtank a dedicated tank... Well that's the point!
The jack of all trades is there to cover for when a tank is not there, but when one actually is since you are a jack of all trades you leave the tanking to the guy whose only good at tanking and you go DPS. Lot's of people tank in hybrid role for when there is no offtank present/the tank dies during cosmics, with the existing risk that a very high end DPS can outaggro you. Hell some very dedicated DPS toons can even outaggro non optimized Tanks. This sounds pretty varied to me \o/
"No pets, no AoEs, no Hybrids, and if you use this power too much we'll nerf it because gods forbid we make crap ones worth taking instead."
Gotta side with Blue on this one. One of my favorite characters to take into difficult content is Patchwork; she spawns support drones, combat drones, and Attack Toys, so when things get tough she's literally a one-man (well, one-woman) army. Except that I'm told, repeatedly, that pet builds are unwelcome at Cosmics, because the encounter is built precisely to ruin a pet commander.
Also, most of my toons rely on AoEs, because there are a [i]lot[/i] of times in-game when I'm alone and being jumped by 3-6 mobs of the same level or higher and I have to take them down before they kill me. Apparently that's a Bad Thing for Cosmic fights too.
Our sister game STO handles this by having the endgame queues at more than one level of difficulty. If I could go against Kiga at Normal, and the tryhards could brag about how well they handle him on Elite, that would suit me just fine, same as my Normal runs in the old Fluidic Space queue let me succeed with a Risian cruiser (a converted luxury liner), while the guys with the special builds could go do the fight on Advanced or Elite and boast of their madd skillz.
I mean the only place where a petmaster build would actually be detrimental to the fight would be in Dino due to the pets dieing too often and your DPS takes a huge impact from having to be constantly resummoning. Every other fight if you know what you are doing it's safe to use commandable pets. In Kiga you can even use uncontrollable pets due to the dogs being too far away.As a matter of fact, I am currently working on a full Pet Master toon to bring to Cosmics and show that I can both get credit AND also not be a detriment to the raid. Still on the process of leveling him, feel free to mail me Level Up packs \o/
As for AoEs? If the positioning is right on hearts/babies you can use any AoE with no problem, even Gravity Driver, so long as you know where to stand.
I am completely onboard with difficulty instances though, so long as the rewards/drop chance is higher for higher difficulties in order to reward players for the extra effort put in. Like in every other MMO. But then people complain that this also is l33tist and cheating the community away (?????) from the rewards they rightfully deserve (???????). Trust me, this conversation has been had multiple times.
I suppose we could have a discussion about whether it's elitist or pragmatic to bar hybrids from Eidolon. The fight is super hard and a sub-optimal character will make it harder due to scaling. Either word you choose, though, it doesn't matter. The end result is that Eidolon runs are always "only bring your BEST dps that IS IN DPS ROLE and has a DPS PASSIVE." That is super excluding lots of people and even though I think I do okay DPS, I feel bad showing up because I'm only sporting rank 7 mods sometimes. I don't know for sure if I fit the bill or if I'm helping more than I'm hurting. This kind of thing is not the kind of thing you want in a social environment. You want to be inclusive not exclusive. This game sadly has ventured (in a very small amount of places) into exclusivity.
That's depressing. And it's most of the reason why I don't like content created this way. Devs know full well the way they implement content effects how players treat each other. Having r9 mods over r7 doesn't make a player more skilled or better at playing their character, but it does mean ending a fight faster due to arbitrary time limits that really don't make sense or to simply not drag out the annoying parts of the fight. Games are great at exploiting players' dissatisfaction with their lives and that sucks.
FYI, most of my toons save 3 (Kaiser Behemoth, Griever and Fenrir) all use Heroic gear and r5 mods. They don't top charts but they certainly pull their weight in fights that pulling your weight is required, that is Dino and Eidolon.
Of the 13 endgame bosses (Cosmics + Warzone OMs + TA bosses), only 2 (Dino and Eidolon) require you to be "top of your game" in order not to be detrimental, while all the rest only require you to learn how the fight goes and be organized.
2 out of 13 barely represents 15% of content that is locked behind tryhardness, which is a lot more generous than a lot other MMOs (TERA for instance usually has around 12 endgame dungeons in a rotation of which only 3 are for casuals, 3 for average, and 6 for tryhards which represents 50% of the endgame)
FYI, most of my toons save 3 (Kaiser Behemoth, Griever and Fenrir) all use Heroic gear and r5 mods. They don't top charts but they certainly pull their weight in fights that pulling your weight is required, that is Dino and Eidolon.
Of the 13 endgame bosses (Cosmics + Warzone OMs + TA bosses), only 2 (Dino and Eidolon) require you to be "top of your game" in order not to be detrimental, while all the rest only require you to learn how the fight goes and be organized.
2 out of 13 barely represents 15% of content that is locked behind tryhardness, which is a lot more generous than a lot other MMOs (TERA for instance usually has around 12 endgame dungeons in a rotation of which only 3 are for casuals, 3 for average, and 6 for tryhards which represents 50% of the endgame)
While this is all certainly true, and I know that on my "best" characters I'm not usually a detriment to the team, do we really need this kind of thing? Do we need content that encourages people to insult others? If we could find a way to make content that would encourage others to do better instead of encourage "good" players to insult the others or to just exclude them in the first place, we'd be in a better place.
I mean, I understand the necessity to discourage low-DPS players from Teleiosaurus or Eidolon, but figuring out a system that won't make you fail if your build or gear are bad but instead encourage you to just be better, that's the go.
I know that cosmics have personally pushed me to make better builds, talk to others about how to make my build better, and they endorse a social environment which is definitely good for the game and has really changed the game overall for me. I hate how people get talked to at Teleiosaurus and I hate that so many people are excluded for Eidolon (again, want to clarify that I absolutely understand the need for these attitudes, but it would be better if we didn't need them in the first place).
Also I look forward to seeing your pet build at cosmics. I really hope we can find some ground where they're useful and those kinds of players can be included.
FYI, most of my toons save 3 (Kaiser Behemoth, Griever and Fenrir) all use Heroic gear and r5 mods. They don't top charts but they certainly pull their weight in fights that pulling your weight is required, that is Dino and Eidolon.
Of the 13 endgame bosses (Cosmics + Warzone OMs + TA bosses), only 2 (Dino and Eidolon) require you to be "top of your game" in order not to be detrimental, while all the rest only require you to learn how the fight goes and be organized.
2 out of 13 barely represents 15% of content that is locked behind tryhardness, which is a lot more generous than a lot other MMOs (TERA for instance usually has around 12 endgame dungeons in a rotation of which only 3 are for casuals, 3 for average, and 6 for tryhards which represents 50% of the endgame)
Heroic and R5s FTW. That loadout is easily enough to, as you've said, "pull your weight" if you take a few minutes to read about the fight beforehand. I don't really understand people feeling 'left out' of anything in this game. I'm far from a skilled gamer, but it's pretty easy to gear/build/play a character who can contribute positively to all of the endgame fights.
Agree with smacky as well, though... it's really grating to see people act like turds at cosmics because some new guy learning the ropes is making the fight take 10 minutes instead of 5. But, people gonna people.
Right, but that doesn't answer the question i put forward. I said "how do you not get bored of doing the same thing over and over", in regards to champions online, that is all there is. Answering with "spend your time doing things you enjoy" evades the question entirely, I'm asking how you extract fun from repeating the same task over and over.
The answer? You can't. It will get emotionally less resonant the more time you spend repeating said task. Hence the issue with champions online, and the reason this thread exists. If we could endlessly enjoy something without getting bored, there would be no need for the majority of the content we currently have; we could just have one mission and that would satisfy us. But it doesn't.
I answered your question in the most direct and honest way possible. I enjoy doing the things I do in Champions Online, hence I don't get bored of doing them. That's all there is to it. Sure, maybe some day I'll get bored of doing Grab alerts... but I haven't yet, and I've been doing them since On Alert. I'll let you know when it happens tho so you can do a little jig about how "you were right after all".
Find something you like and do it, and stop worrying about trying to enjoy the things you don't enjoy.
Your answer was an answer to a question that wasn't asked. I didn't ask "how do you have fun in champions online?" i asked "how do you have fun repeating the same thing over and over?".
You're saying that you simply don't get bored of repeating the same thing, but you admit it will likely eventually become boring? Also, i'd ask this. Do you think you're in the minority for not getting bored, or the majority of overall potential players? From what i've seen of life, and a lot of people, it is common for most to be moving onto whatever they think is the next best thing, they're never satisfied for long.
It seems most people keep the content feeling fresh by changing certain variables, but even that has it's limitations.
I ask this : Do you think given the human nature of getting bored of repetition, and the current market that is over saturated with alternatives; is it wise to have such a limited range of PVE content?
---
If there is one thing i think that has kept the game afloat this long, it has to be the customization. Champions online probably has the biggest range of selections of any character creator, and allows possibly the most freedom to tailor any character you want of any game in the genre (i haven't checked them all, so this is just a guess). It is probably why i've played as long as i have, and keeps me playing to this day due to this near limitless creative freedom; but it is becoming a struggle to stay around when it feels like nothing new is happening in the world of champions online.
Sure i can make whatever character i want, but what i can do with them in champions online is a limited selection of cosmics and alerts i've already done so many times before. The world is just so utterly stale, and it badly needs new content...Even the new zone was an environment recycled from an adventure pack. If they've ruled out a foundry, they should definitely reconsider, it would completely revitalize the game.
Your answer was an answer to a question that wasn't asked. I didn't ask "how do you have fun in champions online?" i asked "how do you have fun repeating the same thing over and over?".
Coincidentally, the answer to both questions is the same. Do things you enjoy. You're not getting a different answer, because that's the correct answer. Keep asking all you like. Personally I think this is one of those situations where you don't actually want an answer. If you feel the need to constantly be doing something different, then you just haven't found things you enjoy yet - keep searching.
I ask this : Do you think given the human nature of getting bored of repetition, and the current market that is over saturated with alternatives; is it wise to have such a limited range of PVE content?
Oh yeah, lots of video games out there in the same genre and others that I could be playing. And yet here I am playing CO - and I'm still doing things in the game I was doing in it years ago..in addition to new things that they've added over time. Is it wise to have "such a limited range" of PVE content? There are games out there with tons more content in them than what CO has... I'm not playing them. I guess meeting some arbitrary quota of "amount of content" doesn't matter to everyone.
While this is all certainly true, and I know that on my "best" characters I'm not usually a detriment to the team, do we really need this kind of thing? Do we need content that encourages people to insult others? If we could find a way to make content that would encourage others to do better instead of encourage "good" players to insult the others or to just exclude them in the first place, we'd be in a better place.
The content doesn't encourage anyone to insult others. If that were true then you would have people who aren't inclined to do so doing so. Remember, people will insult others in Grab alerts because they don't think they're not good enough. Hell people will stand around in rencen telling other people they suck. You can't blame the content for that.
I know that cosmics have personally pushed me to make better builds, talk to others about how to make my build better, and they endorse a social environment which is definitely good for the game and has really changed the game overall for me. I hate how people get talked to at Teleiosaurus and I hate that so many people are excluded for Eidolon (again, want to clarify that I absolutely understand the need for these attitudes, but it would be better if we didn't need them in the first place).
Oh look, the content pushing people to improve, motivating people to help one another, getting a grumpy old fart to make really helpful diagrams for people, getting a notorious min-maxer to start contests where they give away stuff to people for beating challenges to motivate them to improve, getting an entire private channel to completely change its attitude about recruiting people ( they need to be good before we invite them became let's help them get good so we can get them in here ), top level players purposely taking new people into content and struggling with them for hours just to help them even though that top level player doesn't even need anything from the place.
A lot of these behaviors were simply not happening until this content came out. The insulting people thing has been happening for years.
Your answer was an answer to a question that wasn't asked. I didn't ask "how do you have fun in champions online?" i asked "how do you have fun repeating the same thing over and over?".
Coincidentally, the answer to both questions is the same. Do things you enjoy. You're not getting a different answer, because that's the correct answer. Keep asking all you like. Personally I think this is one of those situations where you don't actually want an answer. If you feel the need to constantly be doing something different, then you just haven't found things you enjoy yet - keep searching.
I ask this : Do you think given the human nature of getting bored of repetition, and the current market that is over saturated with alternatives; is it wise to have such a limited range of PVE content?
Oh yeah, lots of video games out there in the same genre and others that I could be playing. And yet here I am playing CO - and I'm still doing things in the game I was doing in it years ago..in addition to new things that they've added over time. Is it wise to have "such a limited range" of PVE content? There are games out there with tons more content in them than what CO has... I'm not playing them. I guess meeting some arbitrary quota of "amount of content" doesn't matter to everyone.
It is the equivalent of someone asking you "what is 2+2?" and you answer "numbers". Although there are two ways your answer can be interpreted. One way is that you're suggesting find something of enjoyment in the repetitive task you're doing. Which as an answer is negligible because it is way too vague; and in response i'd say : "could you be more specific?"
The other way your answer could be interpreted is if you're suggesting doing something entirely different that you find enjoyable. If that is your answer it is a complete evasion of the question, as the question asks how you enjoy performing the repetitive task.
There are really only two types of answer you can give to my question, one specifically explaining how you can have endless fun doing the same thing over and over; the other claiming you cannot have fun doing the same thing over and over, and that it will eventually get boring.
I was never requesting a random amount of content, but a very specific amount; building on what champions online does best to make champions online a better game, expanding on creativity (the heart of the game) by introducing a foundry. Allowing players to create their characters, and allow them to create the scenarios they put them in. And in turn lessening the overall burden on the developers to produce PVE content longterm.
But to go more indepth on your point about content. Some games have lots of content, but are built on a terrible foundation, so the game fails, or just isn't fun. This could come in the form of gameplay, lore, whatever. Champions online has an extremely solid foundation that has lasted years; and although a solid foundation is nice, if you don't build on it it is wasted potential.
Sure, you still enjoy champions, but wouldn't you enjoy it more with a foundry? That is the point i'm trying to make. More fun for those who still scrape some fun off the existing content, and just fun for people who are outright bored.
What you can get away with using in content and how useful you feel participating in content due to how players act are not the same thing. That's the depressing part. Someone feels uncomfortable about showing up and being a burden due to how people act towards others. Even at the Mega D / Mechanon event, we have people telling anyone not 40 to go away. A temp event that's supposed to be fun for everyone was implemented in a way that encourages players to tell others they aren't good enough to participate.
Sitting here saying "but you only need this" misses the point.
The content doesn't encourage anyone to insult others. If that were true then you would have people who aren't inclined to do so doing so. Remember, people will insult others in Grab alerts because they don't think they're not good enough. Hell people will stand around in rencen telling other people they suck. You can't blame the content for that.
Perhaps "encourage" wasn't the best word but the frustration that certain encounters breed cause a rise in heated attitudes. I mean, how often are people insulted at Dino and told to leave? Usually when the thing has taken a couple hours. Wouldn't you agree that "need more at Dino/eidolon, all are welcome" would be a nicer thing to see?
Oh look, the content pushing people to improve, motivating people to help one another, getting a grumpy old fart to make really helpful diagrams for people, getting a notorious min-maxer to start contests where they give away stuff to people for beating challenges to motivate them to improve, getting an entire private channel to completely change its attitude about recruiting people ( they need to be good before we invite them became let's help them get good so we can get them in here ), top level players purposely taking new people into content and struggling with them for hours just to help them even though that top level player doesn't even need anything from the place.
A lot of these behaviors were simply not happening until this content came out. The insulting people thing has been happening for years.
Yes this is definitely the good part of this content. But just because people have been insulting for years doesn't mean the insults don't swell at certain times. We'd be better off without that. And behaviors changing for good isn't an excuse for these encounters sometimes being toxic. It would be much better if the encounters relied less on build performance and more on knowing the fights and being able to react to situations correctly.
Too often people's reaction to others is "just leave". A few weeks ago I was at a Kigs fight and some people were dying at the storm. Some jerk pointed out one specific guy that died and started chewing him out and he was told to leave. The guy, not being a troll and just wanting to have fun, had his fun ruined. We don't need that. I took the time to direct him toward the proper channels and just ask for advice on the fight. Immediately someone stepped in and gave him a run-down. He came back in, participated, survived, and had fun. Cute story but hoe many others fun has been squashed for the same reasons?
I don't mind Eidolon being a grade "above" other cosmics. It was fun seeing all the work you guys put in to figuring out how best to run that encounter. I just wish it would be a bit more inclusive.
There are really only two types of answer you can give to my question, one specifically explaining how you can have endless fun doing the same thing over and over; the other claiming you cannot have fun doing the same thing over and over, and that it will eventually get boring.
And the first answer is the one I gave you: Do things you enjoy, and then you'll have fun doing them over and over. That's what I did, and I'm sure if you try hard enough you can do it too.
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Perhaps "encourage" wasn't the best word but the frustration that certain encounters breed cause a rise in heated attitudes. I mean, how often are people insulted at Dino and told to leave? Usually when the thing has taken a couple hours. Wouldn't you agree that "need more at Dino/eidolon, all are welcome" would be a nicer thing to see?
Well, every player is welcome. It's not the people that are the issue, it's the character they bring. Everyone has two slots, and it's actually really easy to make a character that can do what those encounters require.
And yeah, repeated failure breeds frustration which can bring out the worst in people. But it's not just Dino where people are told to go and wait while the "people who know what they're doing" finish the encounter. It's Kiga too, the really easy cosmic. So, given that even at the easiest cosmic which has no real build performance check this happens... how do you design an encounter that's challenging that won't make certain people become impolite if it fails? It seems that no matter how you design an encounter, or how challenging it actually is, if it can be failed then eventually someone is gonna have a hissy fit about it when it does.
Yes this is definitely the good part of this content. But just because people have been insulting for years doesn't mean the insults don't swell at certain times. We'd be better off without that. And behaviors changing for good isn't an excuse for these encounters sometimes being toxic. It would be much better if the encounters relied less on build performance and more on knowing the fights and being able to react to situations correctly.
Too often people's reaction to others is "just leave". A few weeks ago I was at a Kigs fight and some people were dying at the storm. Some jerk pointed out one specific guy that died and started chewing him out and he was told to leave. The guy, not being a troll and just wanting to have fun, had his fun ruined. We don't need that. I took the time to direct him toward the proper channels and just ask for advice on the fight. Immediately someone stepped in and gave him a run-down. He came back in, participated, survived, and had fun. Cute story but hoe many others fun has been squashed for the same reasons
Again, another example of the two way street. Someone was a jerk, someone else was helpful. Both reactions were in some way motivated by this content, but the jerk has probably always been a jerk, or maybe they just got a bit steamed in the moment, hard a bad day, whatever. I've actually been surprised quite a lot since we got our endgame when I see people that I thought were jerks actually being really helpful and supportive to other players.
I think it's unrealistic to say that so long as somebody is ever being a jerk then the good stuff that happened wasn't worth it. I mean if that was a rule in any part of life it would be the same as saying "we will never proceed". You know what they say, you take the good you take the bad you take them both and there you have the facts of life, the facts of life! ^o^/
I don't mind Eidolon being a grade "above" other cosmics. It was fun seeing all the work you guys put in to figuring out how best to run that encounter. I just wish it would be a bit more inclusive.
We say it time and time again, this content is inclusive people just aren't including themselves. It feels like pulling teeth trying to get someone other than the usual few people getting Eido started. We keep telling people, just go do it... but people would prefer to wait for the usual group to get it started. Eido is a bit more demanding than the other cosmics, but when it comes to getting your foot in the door it's no different - the door is wide open, but people would rather wait for someone else to walk through first. I blame the people who spread the myths about this stuff being super crazy hard and making it seem bigger than it is.
We say it time and time again, this content is inclusive people just aren't including themselves. It feels like pulling teeth trying to get someone other than the usual few people getting Eido started. We keep telling people, just go do it... but people would prefer to wait for the usual group to get it started. Eido is a bit more demanding than the other cosmics, but when it comes to getting your foot in the door it's no different - the door is wide open, but people would rather wait for someone else to walk through first. I blame the people who spread the myths about this stuff being super crazy hard and making it seem bigger than it is.
In my experience, there's still a lot of "secret runs" that only go public when there's 20 minutes left and it's failing. And sure you could use the "everyone has two slots" excuse but that is so not the point. "It's inclusive as long as you meet all these criteria" is the definition of exclusive. Don't bring your healer, we got that covered. Bring your DPS. But make sure you're in a DPS role ("But why would you be in hybrid if you wanna--" Doesn't matter, you're excluding that person's chosen role or archetype or whatever) with a DPS passive.
Again, I'm not knocking the people that ask for this, it's out of necessity instead of being "elitist". No one wants to spend an hour failing, and bringing the "bad characters we don't need" can lead to a full failure. My point is, every role, every kind of character, every Archetype, should be welcome, and that just flat-out isn't the case.
My point is, every role, every kind of character, every Archetype, should be welcome, and that just flat-out isn't the case.
It's probably not possible, though; "difficult" and "can be done by a random PUG" are mostly incompatible (and isn't new to Cosmics, try PUGing Fire and Ice). This isn't even elitist, "the character this fight currently needs isn't the character I most want to play" happens to the 'elites' too.
I remember once when people were going for a very long time against dino. They just couldn't make the check with the characters there. Finally, I gave up on getting the reward I wanted on the character that needed the gcr/scr and got my high Presence AoED character. After that we were done in less than 10 minutes. I always wonder how much less frustrating these runs would be if players could put a certain amount of currency into a common pool each day, rather than having it stuck on a character they really don't want to use that day? Then you could bring the character that is needed at the moment, rather than the one you would prefer to use. I know this won't happen, but I can still have my wishes.
We say it time and time again, this content is inclusive people just aren't including themselves. It feels like pulling teeth trying to get someone other than the usual few people getting Eido started. We keep telling people, just go do it... but people would prefer to wait for the usual group to get it started. Eido is a bit more demanding than the other cosmics, but when it comes to getting your foot in the door it's no different - the door is wide open, but people would rather wait for someone else to walk through first. I blame the people who spread the myths about this stuff being super crazy hard and making it seem bigger than it is.
What's boggles my mind is that... why don't other groups even trying? not even farming the Qzone OMs which is super easy. always waiting for OTHER players to do the preparation for Eidolon
Where are the SG communities in this game?
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
In my experience, there's still a lot of "secret runs" that only go public when there's 20 minutes left and it's failing. And sure you could use the "everyone has two slots" excuse but that is so not the point. "It's inclusive as long as you meet all these criteria" is the definition of exclusive. Don't bring your healer, we got that covered. Bring your DPS. But make sure you're in a DPS role ("But why would you be in hybrid if you wanna--" Doesn't matter, you're excluding that person's chosen role or archetype or whatever) with a DPS passive.
You call them secret runs, but it's just people in a channel deciding to do a thing. Why is the fact that they don't announce it publicly an issue? Because nobody else bothers to try unless they hear "Hey guys the people who get things done are doing the thing, come join them". That channel doing "secret runs" doesn't mean the content itself isn't inclusive.
The content is wide open for people to bring their tanks and healers and CCers. All they have to do is not always wait for "that channel" to start first. The content doesn't exclude them, they exclude themselves.
What's boggles my mind is that I don't other groups even trying, not even farming the Qzone OMs which is super easy. always waiting for OTHER players to do the preparation for Eidolon
I agree it's not elitist; like I said it's necessity. The problem is the encounter and, I guess bad archetype design, not the people.
It would be nice if there could be content that is both challenging and "bring whatever you want". Of course how do you design content that works if 70% of the group is healers, and if 70% of the group is tanks, and if everyone just brings a dps, and still remains challenging for a group that organizes and balances their roles to be just right for the encounter. Personally I think we need more fights that are about fighting a large group of stuff, like a literal army of Viper soldiers, but everyone always hates those kinds of ideas o3o
I agree it's not elitist; like I said it's necessity. The problem is the encounter and, I guess bad archetype design, not the people.
While plenty of ATs are badly designed, to the extent it's specifically an AT problem, it has more to do with limited character slots and there being themes that are only available in particular roles, or only available in paid ATs.
As far as encounter design goes, though, there's maybe something to be done, but it's unclear what. The basic problem is that a tank or hybrid who isn't tanking is just a bad dps, and for any difficult content, too many bad characters results in failure.
I think it's important distinguish people from their characters.
People who are actively trying to improve generally quickly make the leap from having characters that are not helpful to having ones that are. Getting help is pretty easy for anyone who seeks it and the bar is not very high. I see it again and again. Brand new tank in Mercs and r5s comes in, dies a bunch of times, makes some build adjustments, sticks with it and does way better.....still with Mercs and r5s.
People who are unwilling to adjust tend to demand that the game do the adjusting for them. Also have seen this one. Plays in tank role+def passive on the DPS side without tanking anything, has done the fights so much that they have a full set of Justice Primaries with r7s. Still dies more than any other player and does a total of 200-2,000 damage during the entire fight....not DPS...total damage.
People who want their characters to help tend to become helpful fairly quickly.
And those who don't want to....well let's just say I'm not losing sleep over them not feeling very welcome to attend the fights. But I can only think of 3-5 players who fit this category.
You call them secret runs, but it's just people in a channel deciding to do a thing. Why is the fact that they don't announce it publicly an issue? Because nobody else bothers to try unless they hear "Hey guys the people who get things done are doing the thing, come join them". That channel doing "secret runs" doesn't mean the content itself isn't inclusive.
The content is wide open for people to bring their tanks and healers and CCers. All they have to do is not always wait for "that channel" to start first. The content doesn't exclude them, they exclude themselves.
The secret runs I've been a part of haven't been spoken of in the channel, unless like I said, 20 minutes left in the fight (or thereabouts). So it's people deciding to do a thing specifically avoiding that channel (the channel being Cosmic HQ). And, I get it. It makes sense not to open the flood gate to just anyone, because people want their rewards in 20 minutes rather than an hour.
I'm also not saying that the secret runs are the only ones that happen and the only ones that work. I've seen it be brought up and new people welcomed to go and learn the fight, then half hour later it's done. It's nice when that happens. The secret runs shouldn't be desirable in the first place.
What's boggles my mind is that I don't other groups even trying, not even farming the Qzone OMs which is super easy. always waiting for OTHER players to do the preparation for Eidolon
Where are the SG communities in this game?
Eeeeexactly.
You guys haven't noticed the low population the game has?
I agree it's not elitist; like I said it's necessity. The problem is the encounter and, I guess bad archetype design, not the people.
It would be nice if there could be content that is both challenging and "bring whatever you want". Of course how do you design content that works if 70% of the group is healers, and if 70% of the group is tanks, and if everyone just brings a dps, and still remains challenging for a group that organizes and balances their roles to be just right for the encounter. Personally I think we need more fights that are about fighting a large group of stuff, like a literal army of Viper soldiers, but everyone always hates those kinds of ideas o3o
I mean, that's being a bit hyperbolic. It's so super rare that you're gonna end up with more healers than DPS in open-world content that more than 5 people are trying to do. Obviously you don't want it doable with 50 healers or 50 dps only; you want the build diversity there. But we should be able to leave it at "build diversity", not "build diversity except you, and you, and you, and you".
Qwyjibo is one that I think gets it pretty right. You need certain roles, that's good. If everyone's on the same page and all roles are covered, then the fight goes well without him healing much. It takes someone who doesn't know what they're doing to screw up the fight, not someone who just doesn't have the best gear or likes to be a Hybrid. This is how more fights should be.
At the end of the day, though, I don't have the solution. I'm not an encounter designer. But problems that can be fixed by "read this guide and you'll be cool" instead of "get out of here, you suck, you got the wrong archetype or are in the wrong role and you shouldn't come back until you make another character or spend all your money on a retcon" are much, much better.
And even still, there's still the push to make your character better with better gear and strategies, so you're not losing much by not having DPS checks and the like, because making your character better will make the fights go by faster, and are thus less frustrating. You're not losing the social aspect either. More fights that punish bad strategies rather than bad gear or sub-optimal builds is all I'm saying.
And honestly, hordes of VIPER solders would be great. I mean, they're literally like an army, let's fight it. Just ask the boss encounter designers from Neverwinter to help out. "How do we make this harder?" "Oh, more adds! Yeah more adds!"
You guys haven't noticed the low population the game has?
Yes that's why Cosmic HQ was made, to get everyone in the same place so they can communicate beyond just their own SGs. Now they just need to start using that channel to organize some Eido runs without waiting for Vixy to do it. The game's population may be low, but the secret elite shadow government channel's population is even smaller.
You guys haven't noticed the low population the game has?
I mean, that's being a bit hyperbolic. It's so super rare that you're gonna end up with more healers than DPS in open-world content that more than 5 people are trying to do. Obviously you don't want it doable with 50 healers or 50 dps only; you want the build diversity there. But we should be able to leave it at "build diversity", not "build diversity except you, and you, and you, and you".
Hyperbolic or not, these situations have to be considered because they can occur. And that's the reason it's difficult to make content like that, because players are a chaotic bunch of individual variables that will do some crazy stuff.
As for "get out of here you're the wrong thing", that never solves the situation. People generally don't leave when you're a jerk to them. What does work is a polite request to go stand on the hill and wait for your reward and a helpful link to a guide you can read while you wait. Personally I think Dino is important because it does something very important: motivates players to learn about their characters. Some people think they do tons of damage cause of the numbers they see on their screen, and it's not a bad thing if they learn that they could actually be doing a whole lot better. I mean hey if some guys theme is "Big strong guy who punches super hard", is it a bad thing if they realize that their character could be punching a whole lot harder?
everyone in the same place so they can communicate beyond just their own SGs. Now they just need to start using that channel to organize some Eido runs without waiting for Vixy to do it. The game's population may be low, but the secret elite shadow government channel's population is even smaller.
But they're there, and they make things happen, and this conversation is stretching into places I'm not even interested in talking about so stop it. Bad.
You guys haven't noticed the low population the game has?
I mean, that's being a bit hyperbolic. It's so super rare that you're gonna end up with more healers than DPS in open-world content that more than 5 people are trying to do. Obviously you don't want it doable with 50 healers or 50 dps only; you want the build diversity there. But we should be able to leave it at "build diversity", not "build diversity except you, and you, and you, and you".
Hyperbolic or not, these situations have to be considered because they can occur.
Sure, consider them. Putting in a DPS check that can turn a simple fight into a three hour bitchfest is not a proper bandaid for that particular problem.
And that's the reason it's difficult to make content like that, because players are a chaotic bunch of individual variables that will do some crazy stuff.
As for "get out of here you're the wrong thing", that never solves the situation. People generally don't leave when you're a jerk to them. What does work is a polite request to go stand on the hill and wait for your reward and a helpful link to a guide you can read while you wait. Personally I think Dino is important because it does something very important: motivates players to learn about their characters. Some people think they do tons of damage cause of the numbers they see on their screen, and it's not a bad thing if they learn that they could actually be doing a whole lot better. I mean hey if some guys theme is "Big strong guy who punches super hard", is it a bad thing if they realize that their character could be punching a whole lot harder?
Actually, it does solve the situation. I don't like that it does, but I've seen it happen enough that I know it works. Whether people are told to go stuff themselves or they leave because they've been there for three hours, we've seen Dino work because of that. We've also seen Eidolon work because only very specific characters are called to action. It solves the situation, but not the problem.
I think what Teleiosaurus does is important also, but I believe it could be done in a way that doesn't turn the players against each other.
Comments
The answer? You can't. It will get emotionally less resonant the more time you spend repeating said task. Hence the issue with champions online, and the reason this thread exists. If we could endlessly enjoy something without getting bored, there would be no need for the majority of the content we currently have; we could just have one mission and that would satisfy us. But it doesn't.
yes because people go Gold/Lifetimer ONLY for power colouring and not for all the other cool features they get (Monthly Zen, Special Costumes, Free Retcons, unlimited FF access, VIP locations, PTS access e.t.c)
Letting silvers have an choice to have access to that feature would be such a Tragic blow to their Premium privilages, OH THE HUMANITY
and you can give Power colouring to silver members with a special token in Z store, just like they with the resource cap increase and the FF slot
They don't have to give it for free, they can play smart and have it as a zstore feature to make money out of it
Even better? have it Character unlock feature instead of account wide like Aura Slots
Another problem with this, it relies on the player to make alts to have fun. Not everyone likes making alts, and on top of that, the gearing process for each individual alt is still extremely repetitive. It doesn't resolve the issue of the extreme lack of content in regards to PVE.
Find something you like and do it, and stop worrying about trying to enjoy the things you don't enjoy.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That's depressing. And it's most of the reason why I don't like content created this way. Devs know full well the way they implement content effects how players treat each other. Having r9 mods over r7 doesn't make a player more skilled or better at playing their character, but it does mean ending a fight faster due to arbitrary time limits that really don't make sense or to simply not drag out the annoying parts of the fight. Games are great at exploiting players' dissatisfaction with their lives and that sucks.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
rank 9 is a joke, you don't need them
I get good damage on characters who have Mercenary/Qliphothic gear, even 15k on critical
so gear, is irrelevant
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My characters
As long as there are any players or characters at all that are excluded from certain content, there's an issue that needs to be fixed. We should start with pet builds. (And I want to make it clear I have no dog in this fight since I never made a pet build cuz I like to punch stuff.)
Also I guess I was wrong about the active offenses. I thought ego surge was one of the only non-range/melee dependent actives that could go with basically any build. Stuff like lock n load I thought primarily buffs ranged attacks so is that still good to take as a theme-neutral active offense if you're pure melee? Which others are theme-neutral and buff range and melee equally? I ask because I haven't bothered to switch out of ego surge for any of my builds yet.
and my favorite AOs to use are
Imbue (its more balanced of Nimble Mind Surge honestly, the critical chance and severity it gives is very good) Lock N Load and Ice Sheath (for elemental builds especially)
Im still old fashioned and use Intensity on my MA builds and Enraged for enrage/aspect of bestial
Fire, Electric and Darkness AOs are the only AOs i refuse to use due to the aura hijack (like ego surge)
Electric Sheath however has a really useful adv
(Let this be a testament to how "good" I am at building characters!
I imagine it is quite difficult to balance a passive which could be used in every single role.
However, I'd be more inclined to have AoPM changed more radically in that, if it DID become a multi role passive like Congress of Selves, it would change its attributes depending on the role it was in.
Just a weird thought that popped into my head...
Note: There is nothing to suggest that there will be any changes to AoPM, this is just part of a discussion.
Anyway, here's a very rough idea:
Aura of Primal Majesty is the base passive, switching roles with this passive adjusts it as it exchanges new attributes for its old ones.
Aura of Primal Majesty (Hybrid Role)
- Self Stat Buff (as currently but with a few more stat points granted)
- Minor additional Paranormal Damage Resistance (possibly fixed values 15% /20 %/25%)
- Self Paranormal Damage boost (possibly fixed values 10% / 15% / 20%)
Aura of Primal Protection (Tank Role)
- Self Stat Buff (two thirds of that Hybrid Role grants)
- Additional Paranormal Damage Resistance (30% /40% /50%)
- Self Threat Buff (Threat modifier which applies to all forms of damage and healing you do)
Aura of Primal Rage (Melee DPS Role)
- Self Stat Buff (Half of that Hybrid Role grants)
- Additional Paranormal Melee Damage Boost (possibly fixed values 20% / 25% / 30%)
- Chance for Dodge/Avoidance ratings to hit (20% additional dodge & 30% additional avoidance) at low health.
Aura of Primal Assault (Ranged DPS Role)
- Self Stat Buff (Half of that Hybrid Role grants)
- Additional Paranormal Ranged Damage Boost (possibly fixed values 20% / 25% / 30%)
- Chance for Damage Shield to apply to self at low health (1500 total damage absorb, shield vanishes once amount is reached or you reach 75% HP)
Aura of Primal Support (Support Role)
- Self Stat Buff (Half of that Hybrid Role grants)
- Other Stat Buff (as currently but slightly more potent)
- Chance for self-rezzes to reset cool down if you die within 15 seconds of having self-rezzed.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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My characters
None of the other slotted passives are "nerfed" when you stick them in hybrid role. Unstoppable doesn't give you less melee damage if you switch to hybrid. Defiant does not give you a lower per stack defense if you switch to hybrid. Why the hell the sorcery auras do that for the support effect is idiotic especially since all of the auras are out-shadowed in damage gained from offense passives. You can't gain the damage boost from DPS role with sorcery auras and most dps builds aren't using Pre.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
You are nerfing your self and losing that sweet 125% damage from Melee/Range role
1 ) It is still an option and how good that option is depends on your build and how it is set up. It's one of those things that has to do with creativity and theme that people like this game for.
2 ) That wasn't the point. Offense and Defense passives do not have their primary abilities reduced just because you switch roles.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
I, for one, would like to see this change - perhaps with some new mechanics, or at least, an expansion pack?
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I could build a dps toon with a dps passive that switches to hybrid for more aggro to tank. There is a tanking tree that also boosts aggro when in hybrid. Yes, it is about letting people have options and doing something other than the *icator meta if they want to.
And yes, I know how sorcery auras work now. They did not always work that way. The actual supporting part was not reduced when switching to hybrid once upon a time. I know, because I had a support toon that rolled in hybrid so I didn't have to deal with the HP loss. Only support sorcery auras are losing their primary purpose (supporting) when switching to hybrid. Something that none of the offense or defense passives do.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
The jack of all trades is there to cover for when a tank is not there, but when one actually is since you are a jack of all trades you leave the tanking to the guy whose only good at tanking and you go DPS. Lot's of people tank in hybrid role for when there is no offtank present/the tank dies during cosmics, with the existing risk that a very high end DPS can outaggro you. Hell some very dedicated DPS toons can even outaggro non optimized Tanks. This sounds pretty varied to me \o/ I mean the only place where a petmaster build would actually be detrimental to the fight would be in Dino due to the pets dieing too often and your DPS takes a huge impact from having to be constantly resummoning. Every other fight if you know what you are doing it's safe to use commandable pets. In Kiga you can even use uncontrollable pets due to the dogs being too far away.As a matter of fact, I am currently working on a full Pet Master toon to bring to Cosmics and show that I can both get credit AND also not be a detriment to the raid. Still on the process of leveling him, feel free to mail me Level Up packs \o/
As for AoEs? If the positioning is right on hearts/babies you can use any AoE with no problem, even Gravity Driver, so long as you know where to stand.
I am completely onboard with difficulty instances though, so long as the rewards/drop chance is higher for higher difficulties in order to reward players for the extra effort put in. Like in every other MMO. But then people complain that this also is l33tist and cheating the community away (?????) from the rewards they rightfully deserve (???????). Trust me, this conversation has been had multiple times. FYI, most of my toons save 3 (Kaiser Behemoth, Griever and Fenrir) all use Heroic gear and r5 mods. They don't top charts but they certainly pull their weight in fights that pulling your weight is required, that is Dino and Eidolon.
Of the 13 endgame bosses (Cosmics + Warzone OMs + TA bosses), only 2 (Dino and Eidolon) require you to be "top of your game" in order not to be detrimental, while all the rest only require you to learn how the fight goes and be organized.
2 out of 13 barely represents 15% of content that is locked behind tryhardness, which is a lot more generous than a lot other MMOs (TERA for instance usually has around 12 endgame dungeons in a rotation of which only 3 are for casuals, 3 for average, and 6 for tryhards which represents 50% of the endgame)
I mean, I understand the necessity to discourage low-DPS players from Teleiosaurus or Eidolon, but figuring out a system that won't make you fail if your build or gear are bad but instead encourage you to just be better, that's the go.
I know that cosmics have personally pushed me to make better builds, talk to others about how to make my build better, and they endorse a social environment which is definitely good for the game and has really changed the game overall for me. I hate how people get talked to at Teleiosaurus and I hate that so many people are excluded for Eidolon (again, want to clarify that I absolutely understand the need for these attitudes, but it would be better if we didn't need them in the first place).
Also I look forward to seeing your pet build at cosmics. I really hope we can find some ground where they're useful and those kinds of players can be included.
Agree with smacky as well, though... it's really grating to see people act like turds at cosmics because some new guy learning the ropes is making the fight take 10 minutes instead of 5. But, people gonna people.
You're saying that you simply don't get bored of repeating the same thing, but you admit it will likely eventually become boring?
Also, i'd ask this. Do you think you're in the minority for not getting bored, or the majority of overall potential players? From what i've seen of life, and a lot of people, it is common for most to be moving onto whatever they think is the next best thing, they're never satisfied for long.
It seems most people keep the content feeling fresh by changing certain variables, but even that has it's limitations.
I ask this : Do you think given the human nature of getting bored of repetition, and the current market that is over saturated with alternatives; is it wise to have such a limited range of PVE content?
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If there is one thing i think that has kept the game afloat this long, it has to be the customization. Champions online probably has the biggest range of selections of any character creator, and allows possibly the most freedom to tailor any character you want of any game in the genre (i haven't checked them all, so this is just a guess). It is probably why i've played as long as i have, and keeps me playing to this day due to this near limitless creative freedom; but it is becoming a struggle to stay around when it feels like nothing new is happening in the world of champions online.
Sure i can make whatever character i want, but what i can do with them in champions online is a limited selection of cosmics and alerts i've already done so many times before. The world is just so utterly stale, and it badly needs new content...Even the new zone was an environment recycled from an adventure pack. If they've ruled out a foundry, they should definitely reconsider, it would completely revitalize the game.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Oh look, the content pushing people to improve, motivating people to help one another, getting a grumpy old fart to make really helpful diagrams for people, getting a notorious min-maxer to start contests where they give away stuff to people for beating challenges to motivate them to improve, getting an entire private channel to completely change its attitude about recruiting people ( they need to be good before we invite them became let's help them get good so we can get them in here ), top level players purposely taking new people into content and struggling with them for hours just to help them even though that top level player doesn't even need anything from the place.
A lot of these behaviors were simply not happening until this content came out. The insulting people thing has been happening for years.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The other way your answer could be interpreted is if you're suggesting doing something entirely different that you find enjoyable. If that is your answer it is a complete evasion of the question, as the question asks how you enjoy performing the repetitive task.
There are really only two types of answer you can give to my question, one specifically explaining how you can have endless fun doing the same thing over and over; the other claiming you cannot have fun doing the same thing over and over, and that it will eventually get boring.
I was never requesting a random amount of content, but a very specific amount; building on what champions online does best to make champions online a better game, expanding on creativity (the heart of the game) by introducing a foundry. Allowing players to create their characters, and allow them to create the scenarios they put them in. And in turn lessening the overall burden on the developers to produce PVE content longterm.
But to go more indepth on your point about content. Some games have lots of content, but are built on a terrible foundation, so the game fails, or just isn't fun. This could come in the form of gameplay, lore, whatever. Champions online has an extremely solid foundation that has lasted years; and although a solid foundation is nice, if you don't build on it it is wasted potential.
Sure, you still enjoy champions, but wouldn't you enjoy it more with a foundry? That is the point i'm trying to make. More fun for those who still scrape some fun off the existing content, and just fun for people who are outright bored.
Sitting here saying "but you only need this" misses the point.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Too often people's reaction to others is "just leave". A few weeks ago I was at a Kigs fight and some people were dying at the storm. Some jerk pointed out one specific guy that died and started chewing him out and he was told to leave. The guy, not being a troll and just wanting to have fun, had his fun ruined. We don't need that. I took the time to direct him toward the proper channels and just ask for advice on the fight. Immediately someone stepped in and gave him a run-down. He came back in, participated, survived, and had fun. Cute story but hoe many others fun has been squashed for the same reasons?
I don't mind Eidolon being a grade "above" other cosmics. It was fun seeing all the work you guys put in to figuring out how best to run that encounter. I just wish it would be a bit more inclusive.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And yeah, repeated failure breeds frustration which can bring out the worst in people. But it's not just Dino where people are told to go and wait while the "people who know what they're doing" finish the encounter. It's Kiga too, the really easy cosmic. So, given that even at the easiest cosmic which has no real build performance check this happens... how do you design an encounter that's challenging that won't make certain people become impolite if it fails? It seems that no matter how you design an encounter, or how challenging it actually is, if it can be failed then eventually someone is gonna have a hissy fit about it when it does.
Again, another example of the two way street. Someone was a jerk, someone else was helpful. Both reactions were in some way motivated by this content, but the jerk has probably always been a jerk, or maybe they just got a bit steamed in the moment, hard a bad day, whatever. I've actually been surprised quite a lot since we got our endgame when I see people that I thought were jerks actually being really helpful and supportive to other players.
I think it's unrealistic to say that so long as somebody is ever being a jerk then the good stuff that happened wasn't worth it. I mean if that was a rule in any part of life it would be the same as saying "we will never proceed". You know what they say, you take the good you take the bad you take them both and there you have the facts of life, the facts of life! ^o^/
We say it time and time again, this content is inclusive people just aren't including themselves. It feels like pulling teeth trying to get someone other than the usual few people getting Eido started. We keep telling people, just go do it... but people would prefer to wait for the usual group to get it started. Eido is a bit more demanding than the other cosmics, but when it comes to getting your foot in the door it's no different - the door is wide open, but people would rather wait for someone else to walk through first. I blame the people who spread the myths about this stuff being super crazy hard and making it seem bigger than it is.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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My characters
Again, I'm not knocking the people that ask for this, it's out of necessity instead of being "elitist". No one wants to spend an hour failing, and bringing the "bad characters we don't need" can lead to a full failure. My point is, every role, every kind of character, every Archetype, should be welcome, and that just flat-out isn't the case.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Where are the SG communities in this game?
The content is wide open for people to bring their tanks and healers and CCers. All they have to do is not always wait for "that channel" to start first. The content doesn't exclude them, they exclude themselves.
Eeeeexactly. It would be nice if there could be content that is both challenging and "bring whatever you want". Of course how do you design content that works if 70% of the group is healers, and if 70% of the group is tanks, and if everyone just brings a dps, and still remains challenging for a group that organizes and balances their roles to be just right for the encounter. Personally I think we need more fights that are about fighting a large group of stuff, like a literal army of Viper soldiers, but everyone always hates those kinds of ideas o3o
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
As far as encounter design goes, though, there's maybe something to be done, but it's unclear what. The basic problem is that a tank or hybrid who isn't tanking is just a bad dps, and for any difficult content, too many bad characters results in failure.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
People who are actively trying to improve generally quickly make the leap from having characters that are not helpful to having ones that are. Getting help is pretty easy for anyone who seeks it and the bar is not very high. I see it again and again. Brand new tank in Mercs and r5s comes in, dies a bunch of times, makes some build adjustments, sticks with it and does way better.....still with Mercs and r5s.
People who are unwilling to adjust tend to demand that the game do the adjusting for them. Also have seen this one. Plays in tank role+def passive on the DPS side without tanking anything, has done the fights so much that they have a full set of Justice Primaries with r7s. Still dies more than any other player and does a total of 200-2,000 damage during the entire fight....not DPS...total damage.
People who want their characters to help tend to become helpful fairly quickly.
And those who don't want to....well let's just say I'm not losing sleep over them not feeling very welcome to attend the fights. But I can only think of 3-5 players who fit this category.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I'm also not saying that the secret runs are the only ones that happen and the only ones that work. I've seen it be brought up and new people welcomed to go and learn the fight, then half hour later it's done. It's nice when that happens. The secret runs shouldn't be desirable in the first place. You guys haven't noticed the low population the game has?
Qwyjibo is one that I think gets it pretty right. You need certain roles, that's good. If everyone's on the same page and all roles are covered, then the fight goes well without him healing much. It takes someone who doesn't know what they're doing to screw up the fight, not someone who just doesn't have the best gear or likes to be a Hybrid. This is how more fights should be.
At the end of the day, though, I don't have the solution. I'm not an encounter designer. But problems that can be fixed by "read this guide and you'll be cool" instead of "get out of here, you suck, you got the wrong archetype or are in the wrong role and you shouldn't come back until you make another character or spend all your money on a retcon" are much, much better.
And even still, there's still the push to make your character better with better gear and strategies, so you're not losing much by not having DPS checks and the like, because making your character better will make the fights go by faster, and are thus less frustrating. You're not losing the social aspect either. More fights that punish bad strategies rather than bad gear or sub-optimal builds is all I'm saying.
And honestly, hordes of VIPER solders would be great. I mean, they're literally like an army, let's fight it. Just ask the boss encounter designers from Neverwinter to help out. "How do we make this harder?" "Oh, more adds! Yeah more adds!"
Hyperbolic or not, these situations have to be considered because they can occur. And that's the reason it's difficult to make content like that, because players are a chaotic bunch of individual variables that will do some crazy stuff.
As for "get out of here you're the wrong thing", that never solves the situation. People generally don't leave when you're a jerk to them. What does work is a polite request to go stand on the hill and wait for your reward and a helpful link to a guide you can read while you wait. Personally I think Dino is important because it does something very important: motivates players to learn about their characters. Some people think they do tons of damage cause of the numbers they see on their screen, and it's not a bad thing if they learn that they could actually be doing a whole lot better. I mean hey if some guys theme is "Big strong guy who punches super hard", is it a bad thing if they realize that their character could be punching a whole lot harder?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I think what Teleiosaurus does is important also, but I believe it could be done in a way that doesn't turn the players against each other.