Babysitters doesn't have a good pay

nacito · July 2017

Sooooooo is a pretty successful dino run? every check was passed since baby spawns? you know who is not gonna benefit from that? the so-important baby tank, which unique role is to distract the new born dinosaur to not kill your precious dps or healers

suggestions to make them have a better score? cmon don't be shy, post it~

qawsada · July 2017

If the run is full of very competent, powerful dps, the fight could end quite early before the baby tank could get 100k. Maybe the hatchling dino could do more damage credit, like 1.5 or 2 times, more than the original number. Even damaging the baby might give you more credit.

gentlegiantvexx · July 2017

Baby tank has to keep attackin' the baby in order to get credit. This follows along with the dog tamer from kiga. That way you keep yuor attention in game like everyone else.
Better scoring. . . Ehh, I wouldn't mind supporting it.
But it'd promote folks to just toss a small attack once in a while on Dogs/Kiga, while possibly Alt+Tabbing to read a news article for a minute to a minute and a half. Unles you know when you've got 100k points to get the rewards.

opalflame · July 2017

Maybe if they scored tanks better, this would not be a problem. I still find it silly that you get more points for missing a block than you do for timing your blocks just right.

Unknown · July 2017

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behemothking · July 2017

Just let everyone get credit if they show up.

Unknown · July 2017

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baelogventure · July 2017

gradii said:
Maybe the whole scoring system is broken and people should get rewarded based on whether or not the run was successful hmm? Anti leeching systems almost always backfire and this is what is happening now.

behemothking#9246 said:
Just let everyone get credit if they show up.

Participation awards don't build confidence, nor do they push the people to improve. They simply lead to entitlement and more crying and whining for awards for just showing up.

Unknown · July 2017

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baelogventure · July 2017

gradii said:
And Anti Leeching systems always backfire and result in people who did put in the effort and who are trying to improve getting nothing. I'd much rather have a system which guarantees rewards for trying than one which can't even reward people who were doing everything theyre supposed to, like which is happening with the baby tank.

Or you could adjust the scoring system in the Tanks favor.

aesica · July 2017

baelogventure wrote: »

Participation awards don't build confidence, nor do they push the people to improve.

How does overcoming an encounter not build confidence? As for improvement, the only way it pushes people to "improve" is to find new, better ways to game the ranking system. If people really want to gauge their performance and find ways to improve, there's parsing which gives a lot more info than some arbitrary numbers at the end.

And finally...

baelogventure wrote: »

They simply lead to entitlement and more crying and whining for awards for just showing up.

If everyone who shows up gets rewarded, how can people "whine and cry" for rewards that didn't show up?

opalflame · July 2017

Yeah with the way dino's dps checks are, I really don't think it's a good idea to reward people just for showing up. You'd have people showing up and going afk while making the dps checks harder for everyone else.

roughbearmattach · July 2017

By the way, dog tamer in Kiga does not need to attack, because of the CC credit.

It seems that baby tanks on fast dino runs are the last issue to be worked out. You have to attack repeatedly, which makes it riskier for all involved.

baelogventure · July 2017

aesica said:
How does overcoming an encounter not build confidence? As for improvement, the only way it pushes people to "improve" is to find new, better ways to game the ranking system. If people really want to gauge their performance and find ways to improve, there's parsing which gives a lot more info than some arbitrary numbers at the end.

Confidence and resilience don't come from false praise or rewarding normal behavior.

"Gaming" the system usually means you were doing something you were not supposed to, or that was not supposed to happen, as in taking damage that awards points as a DPS or Healer.

aesica said:
If everyone who shows up gets rewarded, how can people "whine and cry" for rewards that didn't show up?

Wanting participation rewards for cosmics -> Wanting participation rewards for TA -> Then for open world events -> and alerts and so on and so forth. It breeds entitlement. Also, this may shock you, but not all content in the game was designed for all skill levels. Generally it's a certain group of people that drag everyone else, kicking and screaming, to the end of a cosmic successfully.

spinnytop · July 2017

Just make baby damage give more score.

gradii said:
Maybe the whole scoring system is broken and people should get rewarded based on whether or not the run was successful hmm? Anti leeching systems almost always backfire and this is what is happening now.

Considering anyone can dps for like a minute then afk until the fight ends and have enough points to get a reward, people whining about the scoring system should really just be ignored for the drama queens they are. The thing where baby dino tanks sometimes don't have enough score cause the fight ended too fast just highlights how stupid easy the cosmics really are.

pantagruel01 · July 2017

It's not that hard to get enough points to score before the baby even spawns, but there are certainly technical solutions that would help. For example, the basic way scoring works is that specific damage types by specific critters give score, and the amount of score depends on the damage and an internal multiplier. Adding a small amount of irresistible damage of some exotic damage type with a high scoring multiplier would efficiently increase tank credit, and eliminate the anomaly where being better at blocking means you get a lower score.

themightyzenith · July 2017

baelogventure said:

aesica said:
How does overcoming an encounter not build confidence? As for improvement, the only way it pushes people to "improve" is to find new, better ways to game the ranking system. If people really want to gauge their performance and find ways to improve, there's parsing which gives a lot more info than some arbitrary numbers at the end.
Confidence and resilience don't come from false praise or rewarding normal behavior.

"Gaming" the system usually means you were doing something you were not supposed to, or that was not supposed to happen, as in taking damage that awards points as a DPS or Healer.
aesica said:
If everyone who shows up gets rewarded, how can people "whine and cry" for rewards that didn't show up?
Wanting participation rewards for cosmics -> Wanting participation rewards for TA -> Then for open world events -> and alerts and so on and so forth. It breeds entitlement. Also, this may shock you, but not all content in the game was designed for all skill levels. Generally it's a certain group of people that drag everyone else, kicking and screaming, to the end of a cosmic successfully.

It seems that your disagreement with @aesica over this stems from how you both fundamentally view the scoring system. From what you said it looks like you view it as "praise" to boost self-esteem and in-game status while it seems that aesica views it as a simple scoring (with subsequent rewards) system in a video game.

pantagruel01 · July 2017

aesica said:
How does overcoming an encounter not build confidence?

It builds confidence that it will be finished. It doesn't really build confidence in your own performance.

aesica said:
As for improvement, the only way it pushes people to "improve" is to find new, better ways to game the ranking system.

While the ranking system does have its quirks, most of the ways of improving your score involve legitimately valuable activity (tanking in general is an anomaly; 'taking damage' is not a good measure of providing value, and for the baby tank doing damage is also not particularly valuable).

aesica · July 2017

pantagruel01 wrote: »

How does overcoming an encounter not build confidence?
It builds confidence that it will be finished. It doesn't really build confidence in your own performance.
As for improvement, the only way it pushes people to "improve" is to find new, better ways to game the ranking system.
While the ranking system does have its quirks, most of the ways of improving your score involve legitimately valuable activity (tanking in general is an anomaly; 'taking damage' is not a good measure of providing value, and for the baby tank doing damage is also not particularly valuable).

To those genuinely interested in improving their performance, or those seeking confidence regarding how well they did, isn't it better to use parse data than the ingame score system? It gives you a much better breakdown of everything so that you know how much damage you did relative to everyone else. That's much more useful than the odd combination of damage, passive healing, and standing in as many nonlethal aoe attacks as possible, etc which makes up the ingame ranking system.

Don't get me wrong, I've been playing games like wow for quite awhile now. I get the value of gauging performance against others to either pat myself on the back for out-dpsing all the dps as a tank, or seeing other people ahead of me and using that as motivation to improve. The difference is the value of the data being presented. Much like parses, in wow, we can see how much damage we (or a fellow party member) dealt from each ability or in total, how much damage we took from various sources, and a bunch of other neat things. In contrast, the ingame scoring system in CO is just a dick measuring tool.

baelogventure wrote: »

Confidence and resilience don't come from false praise or rewarding normal behavior.

Except...false praise is exactly what the current scoring system is. Let's say you're a fairly-good DPS who sits pretty high on the scoreboards. Fantastic. Meanwhile, there's the baby dino tank being discussed in this thread. He's a lot lower on the scoreboard, right?

Your DPS character may or may not be vital for success depending on how hard everyone else is hitting, but the baby tank is vital and therefore, worth more despite sitting lower on the board.

spinnytop · July 2017

aesica said:

To those genuinely interested in improving their performance, or those seeking confidence regarding how well they did, isn't it better to use parse data than the ingame score system?

It's not appropriate to expect users to depend on external software for these sorts of things. In-game feedback is the appropriate way for users to get this information, and that's what the scoring system is. Additionally, performance at cosmics is more than just min/maxing stats and a rotation.

pantagruel01 · July 2017

aesica said:

Except...false praise is exactly what the current scoring system is. Let's say you're a fairly-good DPS who sits pretty high on the scoreboards. Fantastic. Meanwhile, there's the baby dino tank being discussed in this thread. He's a lot lower on the scoreboard, right?

One thing about tanking: both your success and your screwups are obvious to everyone (though distinguishing between tank screwups and healer screwups can be hard). This means that you don't need a scoreboard to figure out who's doing a good job of tanking (though obviously you want a score high enough to get credit). By comparison, you do need a scoreboard or out of game tools to figure out which dps (and healers) are assets and which are just taking up space.

aesica · July 2017

pantagruel01 wrote: »

One thing about tanking: both your success and your screwups are obvious to everyone (though distinguishing between tank screwups and healer screwups can be hard). This means that you don't need a scoreboard to figure out who's doing a good job of tanking (though obviously you want a score high enough to get credit). By comparison, you do need a scoreboard or out of game tools to figure out which dps (and healers) are assets and which are just taking up space.

While that's true, I'm referring more to the people (such as the person I quoted) who seem to view the scoring system as a source of praise rather than as a performance evaluation tool.

baelogventure · July 2017

aesica said:
While that's true, I'm referring more to the people (such as the person I quoted) who seem to view the scoring system as a source of praise rather than as a performance evaluation tool.

Except I never said the scoreboard was the source of praise. I've said several times adjusting the scoring so the baby tank can easily earn a reward would be good.

The reward itself for defeating the cosmic is the praise, and awarding it to anyone standing around while the cosmic dies is the false praise which would lead to entitlement.

themightyzenith · July 2017

There is no praise (expression of approval, respect or admiration) given, false or otherwise, except possible praise from other players from getting a good score. There is ranking via the scoreboard and subsequent rewards for completion of tasks.

spinnytop · July 2017

baelogventure said:
Except I never said the scoreboard was the source of praise. I've said several times adjusting the scoring so the baby tank can easily earn a reward would be good.

The reward itself for defeating the cosmic is the praise, and awarding it to anyone standing around while the cosmic dies is the false praise which would lead to entitlement.

Well, even if you were saying that the scoreboard is praise you would be technically correct. The scoreboard is a form of feedback, and when a player scores high the game is effectively telling them "You did well". The reward is also a form of positive feedback, so you would be correct either way since these are both forms of positive feedback which is effectively what amounts to the game communicating to you that you did well, which is effectively what praise is.

themightyzenith · July 2017

Whatever you need to feel special and get you through the day, I suppose. Automated ranking systems don't really do that for me but whatever floats yer boat. It's certainly a limited form of feedback........for you to interpret as you like, however skewed that interpretation might be.

ealford1985 · July 2017

I just like not crashing....I don't care about the rest, just give me the prize for why I'm there.

spinnytop · July 2017

themightyzenith said:
Whatever you need to feel special and get you through the day, I suppose. Automated ranking systems don't really do that for me but whatever floats yer boat. It's certainly a limited form of feedback........for you to interpret as you like, however skewed that interpretation might be.

Positive Feedback is just what it's called, and its function is to let the player know they're taking the correct action. You're basically saying "Okay, I guess if you interpret it that way then that thing on your dashboard is telling you how fast you're going, but I don't interpret it as a speedometer". You don't have to wag your tail and cheer about it, and nobody's implying that you do. It's your choice how you react to the game patting you on the head and calling you a good puppy - I know some puppies are just too cool to wag.

aesica · July 2017

baelogventure wrote: »

Except I never said the scoreboard was the source of praise. I've said several times adjusting the scoring so the baby tank can easily earn a reward would be good.

My mistake then. The wording of your post was somewhat unclear.

baelogventure wrote: »

The reward itself for defeating the cosmic is the praise, and awarding it to anyone standing around while the cosmic dies is the false praise which would lead to entitlement.

Using the word "entitlement" like that isn't a very good way to make your case.

That said, is it really any different than someone doing the minimal amount of damage needed for the rewards before parking themselves on the sidelines for the rest of the fight? Does that even happen in such a capacity that downing a boss becomes impossible?

Finally, I think most people see "the reward" as the whole reason they're there--not as praise, but as the motivation to show up in the first place. "I want X, therefore I'm doing Y." Not the same thing as praise at all.

darqaura2 · July 2017

Personally, I really couldn't care less about who scores what, as long as I score at least 100K and get the reward.

The scoreboard is personally irrelevant and useless to me except to tell me I participated enough to get the reward. Especially on runs that goes hours on end where the scores get ridiculously high. If the scoreboard showed things like: (just examples doesn't have to be specific)

Highest DPS
Highest Blocked Damage
Highest Unblocked Damage
Highest Damage by group during Dino check/Eido orbs spawn, etc

Then it would matter.

What matters is that the encounter is finished by the group and the game correctly rewards those who actually participate correctly. To that end, I agree with the suggestions for the Tank scoring mentioned above.

kamokami · July 2017

Let's say a fight takes 5 minutes.....so 300 seconds. Fights that take less time than that are very rare and are anomalies....if they were not then the Cosmics would need massive buffs.

Score = damage dealt + healing + damage taken. So you need 100k score in 300 seconds.....let's say you take no damage and do no healing. So you need to do 100,000 damage in 300 seconds.

100,000 damage / 300 seconds = 333 DPS.

Let's also say that the Cosmic is on the higher end of its variable resistance....at 40%. So that means someone dealing 333 DPS vs the Cosmic would need to deal 466 DPS vs a test dummy. The bar is very very low. It effectively equates to "I was there".

This is evident when looking at the actual scoreboards. People who didn't get credit are generally very few...1 or 2 per run. And when looking through the parser they either showed up late or have extremely few hits on the Cosmic....aka mostly they're AFK or just standing there blocking.

kamokami · July 2017

The ideal solution would be to change the fight so that the Baby and the Baby Tank are more actively involved. The current best way to Baby Tank is to build some threat at the start for about 10 seconds and then toggle block. It's the least mistake prone way to go and reduces the burden on Healers to allow them to focus more on the Mom Tank and DPS. But it also means the Baby Tank might not make it in terms of the contribution margin if the fight goes well.

The optimal strategy for the fight results in the greatest risk of the Baby Tank not getting credit.

So either the optimal strategy needs to change....aka....the fight should be different. Or getting score for credit should change.

Assuming that we're not going to get changes to the fight for a while due to resources, priorities, etc....we can just focus on changing how getting score works.

Right now Score = damage dealt + healing + damage taken

I'd suggest to change the above to Score = damage dealt + healing + *base* damage taken

Since Tanks have high resistances and the current optimal strategy results in the Baby Tank getting most of their credit via "damage taken" through block, the net effect of this change would mean that they will earn at least 4X more score.

pantagruel01 · July 2017

kamokami said:
Assuming that we're not going to get changes to the fight for a while due to resources, priorities, etc....we can just focus on changing how getting score works.

Right now Score = damage dealt + healing + damage taken

I'd suggest to change the above to Score = damage dealt + healing + *base* damage taken

I don't believe that the game supports that at the moment, though there may be indirect ways of achieving it. My understanding is that score is actually equal to (damage dealt to applicable targets x damage score multiplier) + (healing to applicable targets x healing score multiplier) + (damage received from applicable targets of applicable types x damage received score multiplier), and that those multipliers can be different for different types -- e.g. I think dino only gives credit for slashing damage received, as that's what you'd want to tank with.

This could be cheated around by giving the dino's bite a small irresistible damage tic of a type the dino doesn't otherwise use, and assigning that damage type a high score multiplier, though it would look weird in the combat log.

kamokami · July 2017

pantagruel01 said:

I don't believe that the game supports that at the moment, though there may be indirect ways of achieving it. My understanding is that score is actually equal to (damage dealt to applicable targets x damage score multiplier) + (healing to applicable targets x healing score multiplier) + (damage received from applicable targets of applicable types x damage received score multiplier), and that those multipliers can be different for different types -- e.g. I think dino only gives credit for slashing damage received, as that's what you'd want to tank with.

This could be cheated around by giving the dino's bite a small irresistible damage tic of a type the dino doesn't otherwise use, and assigning that damage type a high score multiplier, though it would look weird in the combat log.

Ok if the Dino only gives credit for slashing damage received, since Tanks are really the only ones taking that damage, then could just raise the damage received score multiplier for the Dino fight and be done.

spinnytop · July 2017

I would like to see less content involve "tap everything once and then stand there and block" dynamics. It's not particularly compelling.

Babysitters doesn't have a good pay

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