Unfortunate Experience with/for a New Player

blumoon8 · May 2017

I had an unfortunate experience with a new player that I just have to get off your chest. Now, before you jump to the obvious conclusion, no they weren't awful. What happened was, I essentially got an anonymous friend request. I get them every now and then, always weird out about it (WHY ARE YOU FRIENDING ME. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME. *suspicious*), but this time I actually decided to accept out of an odd generous mood. Well, they were a new player who wanted to ask questions but the only way they could talk was through friending someone. To be specific, they were an older (age-wise) new player. They were a very nice person, and unfortunately, some of their questions I just didn't have an answer for. Because they felt they had no where else to turn, essentially reduced to asking me or looking online for help, they quit. They couldn't use zone chat to ask for help from someone who may be able to actually help them. What sucks the most is they actually really, REALLY enjoyed the game. They just couldn't put up with the limitations, became incredibly frustrated, and decided to move on to something else.

TLDR: New player quit because of chat limitations.

So for me, reflecting on this experience, I'm left to wonder how many new players like the game but can't make it through the various limitations? I have zero knowledge of the new player experience because I started playing back in 2010 when it was P2P. Are the early hurdles that obtrusive? I just find the whole thing unfortunate and wonder how many people start playing only to quit.

A bunch of hypothetical questions, but that's the experience and what's been on my mind.

Thanks for reading!

draogn · May 2017

They can be obtrusive, but that is sort of the point. (and being a cash grab because the restrictions can be removed with a wallet) Not to drive new players away but keep gold spammers out. We still get the occasional spammer of course, but with out those restrictions in place it'd be worse.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

Are the early hurdles that obtrusive? I just find the whole thing unfortunate and wonder how many people start playing only to quit.

Yup. They've started auto adding new toons to a New Champions SG. I rolled some new characters recently and of the 495 toons in the SG:

260 never made it out of the Tutorial
100 are still level 6
447 are still below level 9

The drop out rate is horrid.

behemothking · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
The drop out rate is horrid.

Be careful about how you interpret data. Those numbers alone do not provide you enough information to conclude about drop out rate because it tells you nothing about the total amount of characters that have been in that super group over its entire span of existence. For example, there could have been a total of 10,000 characters that have passed through that SG and the drop out rate would be a mere 4% or the total could actually be 495 characters and the drop out rate would be an alarming 90%. With that rate unknown, you would not be able to make a reasonable conclusion about that rate. Also, don't forget that mostly every player that goes on and plays the game ends up leaving the New Champion SGs eventually.

IIRC, on a new account, any character is restricted from using mail, tells, and zone until they have accumulated 24 hours of play time. It was not particularly necessary for the player to add you just to ask you a question. That is only if they wanted to give you specifically a tell. They could have used local chat to ask their question to any number of people.

I do not think new players are so limited in communication to the point of causing reasonable frustration. Still though, it's unfortunate that the player decided to leave after that experience.

chaosdrgnz43 · May 2017

CO's limitations are nothing like DCUO's. The chat restriction is only temporary anyway. Shame that player left for something so trivial.

theoriginalfive · May 2017

Perhaps it would be better if chat restriction timers were shown (on condition of a verified email?) when someone tries to use Zone?

I was left scratching my head at how long it took for me to unlock Zone chat, but I persevered.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

for example, there could have been a total of 10,000 characters that have passed through that SG and the drop out rate would be a mere 4% or the total could actually be 495 characters and the drop out rate would be an alarming 90%. With that rate unknown, you would not be able to make a reasonable conclusion about that rate. Also, don't forget that mostly every player that goes on and plays the game ends up leaving the New Champion SGs eventually.

I can say with some confidence that no-one ever joins a New Champions SG after the tutorial or initial Westside missions. And even if there are players who start off in that one and then leave to join another (or none) then what remains is the data regarding people who haven't progressed far in the game. Most of them never get past Westside and it's noticeable where the leave points are - the Tutorial, Little Italy, Purple Reign, first Grab Alert, last Westside mission. Not being negative about it, but the game does lose a lot of new players at early stages.

jennymachx · May 2017

Unless we have actual hard data on exactly how many players have left the New Champions SG and have played the game with a more substantial amount of gameplay time, and to determine just how many players that own (or have owned) those 495 inactive toons have moved on to playing other toons, we can't really say for sure just how many new players on average thus far have quit the game very early on.

Also not forgetting that F2P has been going on for a few years now, including the auto-adding of first-ever created toons to the SG.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

You can add in vagueness if you wish - and I'll happily accept that people create Alts and then play them further down the line. 'cause I do that lots - but these trends have been reflected in the makeup of New Champions SGs ever since I've been playing the game. We have said before that being nice to the new player or new character is not CO's strong suit; making you do the tutorial without a travel power, chat bans, etc are all less than welcoming (even if they do have a purpose).

jaazaniah1 · May 2017

I've always thought that CO should be the one creating, maintaining and advertising a wiki for this game, not the players. I've never understood why these types of products (online games) don't come with a real "owner's manual," like most everything else one can buy. If players had access to something like this that could answer their questions I bet retention rates wold be better.

darqaura2 · May 2017

jaazaniah1 said:
I've always thought that CO should be the one creating, maintaining and advertising a wiki for this game, not the players. I've never understood why these types of products (online games) don't come with a real "owner's manual," like most everything else one can buy. If players had access to something like this that could answer their questions I bet retention rates wold be better.

The reason they don't is resources. Who on the CO team would be able to update the wiki? Marketing? HAAAAAA! From everything I've seen there are maybe about 7 folks working on CO at any given time, period.

jaazaniah1 · May 2017

Well, there was a time they probably would have been able to acquire the old wiki, which was pretty complete. Then all they would have had to do is update it with changes. IIRC though, the old wiki was abandoned around the time that resources were shifted from CO to develop NW, and so an opportunity was missed.

decorumfriends · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
You can add in vagueness if you wish - and I'll happily accept that people create Alts and then play them further down the line. 'cause I do that lots - but these trends have been reflected in the makeup of New Champions SGs ever since I've been playing the game.

You have no info on how many players quit that SG the second they noticed it, which would be a large portion of people with MMO experience.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

i You have no info on how many players quit that SG the second they noticed it, which would be a large portion of people with MMO experience.

Ah, yes I do. The activity log on the front of the SG contains details of everyone who has ever left it. There are four (4) entries.

morigosa · May 2017

...Well, I guess this explains why they keep revising the tutorial. Too bad the revisions have, by and large, not actually been improvements.

spinnytop · May 2017

chaosdrgnz43 said:
CO's limitations are nothing like DCUO's. The chat restriction is only temporary anyway. Shame that player left for something so trivial.

Yeah. What problems could he have been having that were that bad anyway... most of the early game is just run around and pewpew, no thinking required, standard MMO stuff.

btw OP if you actually remember the questions they asked, plz post

draogn · May 2017

jaazaniah1 said:
I've always thought that CO should be the one creating, maintaining and advertising a wiki for this game, not the players. I've never understood why these types of products (online games) don't come with a real "owner's manual," like most everything else one can buy. If players had access to something like this that could answer their questions I bet retention rates wold be better.

They were going to when Lohr (if I recall) left they gave TT the old wiki's data and he was going to work to get one running, of course that hasn't happened.

blumoon8 · May 2017

It's not necessarily that the problems were god awful terrible, I think it was just the lack of ability to communicate to get clarification which made them feel it wasn't worth staying. They initially dropped by just to try it, liked it a lot, but went "meh" to the restrictions and left. I just feel bad because they did seem to enjoy the game... and as always that's another person contributing to our small game population... but oh well.

As for the questions, they wanted to know how to leave their supergroup, they wanted to know about talents (but there was a lot of confusion here because first they didn't know what they were called and then I believe they found an older progression chart online), and they had some bug in whiteout that didn't allow them to progress. There was another issue that I couldn't help with but I forget exactly what it was. Simple issues, but it basically boils down to I was a lifeline of information but I didn't know how to solve everything (or in some cases what they were even talking about). If they had other avenues, they may have stayed (maybe not). I can't say. I'm just retelling an experience that I found unfortunate. They could have easily used the forums, but not every thinks of doing that or wants to bother with it over simpler things.

In either case, it appears the new player experience should perhaps be a bit smoother. I'm glad people have made through it, and I know personally if I went into a game and I knew ahead of time that there was a communication restriction, I would probably stick it out. I'm just wondering how much 20 hours amounts to nowadays on Champions Online. It's so easy to level up and progress through the content.

tenebriswolf · May 2017

That's kinda sad to see people leave a game they like so fast just because of some minor issues. Maybe they'll try another time after they can go through the first impression. Unfortunately, the game's current state forces us, as players, to be the ones helping the new people coming in. Yes, that's not our task, but we have to do it until PWE or whoever is behind all this get their **** together and pick up the mantle. Too bad you couldn't provide them with the answers they need, but in such a case, I'm pretty sure you can ask in Zone chat for help. They are always some veterans who can provide answers.

blumoon8 · May 2017

That's very true, Tenebris. I definitely hope they decide to return in the future. I get random friend requests all the time, but I never realized it was a new player who might be reaching out with questions.

decorumfriends · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
i You have no info on how many players quit that SG the second they noticed it, which would be a large portion of people with MMO experience.

Ah, yes I do. The activity log on the front of the SG contains details of everyone who has ever left it. There are four (4) entries.

I stand corrected then.

spinnytop · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:

260 never made it out of the Tutorial
100 are still level 6
447 are still below level 9

The drop out rate is horrid.

How many of these people stopped playing because the game was too easy?

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

How many of these people stopped playing because the game was too easy?

Who can say? Would that be your preferred reason?

roughbearmattach · May 2017

Does the SG log say they quit the game (never logged on again) or deleted a toon?

When I first started Champs, I made and deleted toons for about two weeks before settling into one that I kept long term. I also made a few accounts to try things out before settling on one.

nevyn34 · May 2017

Another thing to consider is that new accounts unlock additional archetypes upon hitting level 10 for the first time. How many start a different character then?

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

This is all sounding rather unlikely, folks.

spinnytop · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
How many of these people stopped playing because the game was too easy?

Who can say? Would that be your preferred reason?

If we sit down and think I'm sure we can think of a bunch more reasons. Here's another one, "Oh, it's a tab-target MMO... not interested".

magpieuk2014 said:
This is all sounding rather unlikely, folks.

And why is that? Those sound like perfectly reasonable scenarios to me.

sterga · May 2017

Deleted toons don't show up in the guild leaving log as far as I know. They just disappear from the roster.

Most f2p games have chat restrictions to combat gold sellers. I wouldn't be surprised if b2p and even p2p games do the same anymore.

I thought that costume bits were unlocked at 10, but all of the free ATs are selectable right from level 1?

nevyn34 · May 2017

Nope. When I first made my account I wanted to play a Glacier but had to pick the Inferno because only four of the free At's are unlocked at the start. Thinking back it's either completing the tutorial for the first time that unlocks the rest of them or hitting level 10. Not really sure and I'm not starting a new account just to check.

Honestly, that's one of the most nonsensical restrictions I've ever seen. It forces a lot of new players to do the tutorial once on a character they may or may not actually want in order to unlock a character they do want.

markhawkman · May 2017

Only 4? when was this? When I made my first character it was around a dozen.

nevyn34 · May 2017

February 2015 is the date I made my Glacier. And the free archetypes count stands at 10, not including event unlockable ones.

Edit: Ok, I just made a dummy account to make sure I knew what I was talking about and the restriction has apparently been removed. Either that or I had one too many gins today and completely fantasized it. Pretty sure its the former because I've only had the two.

decorumfriends · May 2017

The only restriction I remember like that was you didn't get but a bare minimum of costumes unlocked until level 10 (an even more nonsensical block) and they removed that...what, a year ago, maybe more?

roughbearmattach · May 2017

I joined right after Free for All, and all free ATs were available at start (Glacier, Inferno, Behemoth, Grimoire, Mind, Soldier, Marksman, Blade). All free costumes were available from character creation screen then, too. That was . . . 2011?

spinnytop · May 2017

sterga said:
Deleted toons don't show up in the guild leaving log as far as I know. They just disappear from the roster.

Actually I know a few times people deleted a character in a certain SG I was in and a certain somebody went butt nutts when they saw that person had left in the guild log and was only calmed when the person explained that they weren't quitting, they had just deleted their character.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

The numbers should add up to 500 - the number of left / deleted toons, tough (500 is the max in an SG, I believe) - that one has 495.

Anyway, this is academic. The problems a new player faces in finding information on the game (and in getting help) are genuine, I think - the new Wiki is nice (and I should contribute really) but incomplete and there's lots of superseded information and builds out there; it can be difficult to find a way into a game where most of the difficulty is at the low, not the higher, levels.

spinnytop · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
it can be difficult to find a way into a game where most of the difficulty is at the low, not the higher, levels.

Good thing CO isn't like that. Early content is basically running around AOEing down mooks.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

I know, I saw your Soldier AT Westside video on YouTube. Nice work. Didn't prove anything, but I don't see the point in having this discussion *again*. It's just too easy to knock over your arguments, once you know how.

markhawkman · May 2017

Spinny's point is that there's not much that new players actually NEED to ask questions about.

And FWIW, I'm pretty sure the chat thing is an anti-spambot feature. Which is something to ponder... how many of these characters are failed spambots?

beezeeze · May 2017

As a f2p game people have nothing to lose when it comes to trying out CO and feel no obligation to stick around if they don't like it right away(for any of dozens of reasons.) I don't really think looking at how many inactive characters clogging up the new champions #894025839whatever SGs is a very good indicator as to how many people quit because of the limitations imposed on new accounts that are set up to impede gold spammers. Maybe it's kids trying to play on gradma's old laptop only to find it unplayable on their hardware..who know? the possibilities are endless.

However in the case presented here by OP...I do find it a shame that their new friend decided not to stick around as most if not all of those restrictions go away at around lvl 10 (or maybe its 10 hours after the account was created? yeah I'm not really sure..in anycase I don't remember it being that much of a hassle when I first started.)

spinnytop · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
I know, I saw your Soldier AT Westside video on YouTube. Nice work. Didn't prove anything, but I don't see the point in having this discussion *again*. It's just too easy to knock over your arguments, once you know how.

And now SMG has that neat shield effect on it so it's even easier than that video shows. You should've seen how ez Poe went down today.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

Spinny's point is that there's not much that new players actually NEED to ask questions about.

There is, really. CO is way more fidgety and non-standard than most MMOs and people wil have questions, to which there aren't easily accessible answers. Which is the point Bluhman was making first up. And yes, there are gold spammers. But they come in waves - and situation with the drop out rate has been like that for years (ever since I've been playing).

As a f2p game people have nothing to lose when it comes to trying out CO and feel no obligation to stick around if they don't like it right away(for any of dozens of reasons.)

All true. But don't give them reasons to leave.

spinnytop · May 2017

Bluemoon*

By the time a player would really need questions to be able to progress their chat is unlocked. Early game is just run up to stuff, aoeaoeaoe, move on. Whatever sort of "fidgety" stuff that you're talking about doesn't get in the way of breezing through the first few hours of the game.

I do have a question though. If someone stops playing the game, why would their character disappear from the SG roster? It's not as if people would feel like they need to delete their character if they decided not to play anymore. They would just log out and uninstall, and uninstalling doesn't delete your account or any of your characters. Not playing for a while also doesn't automatically kick you from a SG either - I know that when I don't play for a while, my characters don't vanish from my SG roster. Is it really likely that people are rage-quitting and then making sure to delete their characters before uninstalling?

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

Whatever sort of "fidgety" stuff that you're talking about doesn't get in the way of breezing through the first few hours of the game.

Need help with Talos Takedown

LFG 4 Purple Reign

Failed to notice the devs little jokes (Level 10 enemies to the immediate left of Kodiak, Master Villian to the right)

What's the difference between a tap and charge attack? Why do charged attacks take so l-o-o-ng?

Why am I running out of Energy so quickly?

What's a block?

etc etc

spinnytop · May 2017

magpieuk2014 said:

Need help with Talos Takedown

LFG 4 Purple Reign

Failed to notice the devs little jokes (Level 10 enemies to the immediate left of Kodiak, Master Villian to the right)

What's the difference between a tap and charge attack? Why do charged attacks take so l-o-o-ng?

Why am I running out of Energy so quickly?

What's a block?

etc etc

Those first two are easily soloable - new player might have to try a few times before they get lucky with a health pickup

"Oh look lvl 10 enemies... should probably not mess with those cause I know numbers"

"Hey look power descriptions, hm yes I see this explains taps and charges! Also I know how time works"

"Powers cost energy and I can see the cost of those powers and how much my max energy is here on the UI"

"It's that thing they told me about in the tutorial.. also I'm a gamer so I know how to check keybindings and oh look there it is, let's go use it in combat and see what happens"

I guess you're one of those people who thinks "new player to CO" means "mentally retarded".

jonsills · May 2017

Y'know, Spinny, not every AT has an AoE at low levels. (And if I were selecting one for the AoE potential, I'd rather take the Unleashed, and its Twirling Blades of Death attack - get the bad guys to come to me, which isn't usually a problem, and suddenly they're all cold cuts.) If you grabbed, say, a Marksman, you'd best know about targeting - which not everyone with limited MMO experience will have - and you'll also soon be learning the true definition of "squishy"...

On the other tentacle, the restriction on chat really isn't that big a deal, IMO, especially since you can still use Local (and the chat window defaults to that). And it is nice to hear the restrictions on ATs and costumes have been removed - I sure spent enough time complaining about that after I made a new account to check that out. (Yes, kiddos, there was a time when you only got to check out some of the free ATs, had no idea the premium ones even existed, and were only allowed to access a portion of your available costumes until you got your first toon to lvl 11.)

areee · May 2017

It's really too bad that popup when you log in doesn't have a timer showing how long in playtime hours until Zone chat is unlocked. It would probably save alot of hassle for new players and unlikely to take alot of coding to do.

magpieuk2014 · May 2017

I guess you're one of those people who thinks "new player to CO" means "mentally retarded".

Gosh no. I wouldn't be so unkind. But if you come to CO looking for an experience like other games or MMOs its not that similar; it's almost turn-based in its combat and hardly anyone understands it properly (see block thread for details of how opaque basic game concepts are). Out of all the PWE games or other MMOs like the Nexon titles, CO is the outlier. I wouldn't change it (it wouldn't still be around if it wasn't quirky) but I wouldn't say it was easy to pick up the thread of things if you lose it.

rhymere · May 2017

A good proposal would be to have some of our veterans join the new player SG and just type out "Any questions or anyone in need of help? I'm here for the next X amount of time" new players can then get some info and don't feel so overwhelmed.

Don't have to use your main, just one non-SGed character and do it for however long you want to each day/week/whatever.

spinnytop · May 2017

jonsills said:
Y'know, Spinny, not every AT has an AoE at low levels. (And if I were selecting one for the AoE potential, I'd rather take the Unleashed, and its Twirling Blades of Death attack - get the bad guys to come to me, which isn't usually a problem, and suddenly they're all cold cuts.) If you grabbed, say, a Marksman, you'd best know about targeting - which not everyone with limited MMO experience will have - and you'll also soon be learning the true definition of "squishy"...

Well, I leveled a Marksman at one point which compels me to point out that Sonic Arrow and Torrent of Arrows are not only both AOEs, but are both amazing AOEs due to the fact that they give you early access to stuns and knocks. In fact, I credit the Marksman AT as being the reason I have the playstyle I do now for those two very reasons.

ALso looking through the AT list I'm not seeing many that won't have an aoe by level 6, and of those they all end up with an aoe not long after.

magpieuk2014 said:
I guess you're one of those people who thinks "new player to CO" means "mentally retarded".

Gosh no. I wouldn't be so unkind. But if you come to CO looking for an experience like other games or MMOs its not that similar; it's almost turn-based in its combat and hardly anyone understands it properly (see block thread for details of how opaque basic game concepts are). Out of all the PWE games or other MMOs like the Nexon titles, CO is the outlier. I wouldn't change it (it wouldn't still be around if it wasn't quirky) but I wouldn't say it was easy to pick up the thread of things if you lose it.

When I first started playing my immediate impression was that it functioned just like any other tab-target mmo I had played. I didn't really even bother trying to get any sort of "in depth" knowledge about its quirks until years later, and that was only because I started becoming interested in what it meant to "min/max" in this game. I mean sure, today I might have some know how about something... but back then on day 1 what could I have possibly possessed that puts me above any other average new player? "Having played a tab target mmo before" isn't really a rare trait among players who play mmos.

alli210 said:
A good proposal would be to have some of our veterans join the new player SG and just type out "Any questions or anyone in need of help? I'm here for the next X amount of time" new players can then get some info and don't feel so overwhelmed.

Don't have to use your main, just one non-SGed character and do it for however long you want to each day/week/whatever.

Not sure that would work so great, if only because it applies fairly randomly.

What would be great would be a "mentor" system like I've seen in other mmos, where vets can sign up for it and then new players are assigned to them. The chat ban could be lifted regarding whispers to the mentor, and then that player would have someone to ask questions of.

Unfortunate Experience with/for a New Player

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