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Rampage Revamp soon please.

gradiigradii Posts: 11,717 Arc User
Keep them for 10 people, but up the overall difficulty (when 10 people are present) the same as TA or Cosmics.

I'm sure they can do better with Rampages than they did with Cosmics since instanced content is a lot easier to make difficult without resorting to cheap tricks.

Comments

  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Keep them for 10 people, but up the overall difficulty (when 10 people are present) the same as TA or Cosmics.

    I'm sure they can do better with Rampages than they did with Cosmics since instanced content is a lot easier to make difficult without resorting to cheap tricks.

    ...the same old Cheat Trick??





    they seemed to be ok, the sky rampage i always avoided due to the annoyance of all those little bots you have to go after. They should add in a snarky giggle for that club caprice escapee, Gravatar, everytime she immediately kills someone you just revived... -_-



    I think what needs to revamped about them are the drop rates for those items you have to farm to get the end game sets. The rest of it feels legitimate.

    Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    gradii said:

    I'm sure they can do better with Rampages than they did with Cosmics since instanced content is a lot easier to make difficult without resorting to cheap tricks.

    What you're forgetting is that because it's instanced content that means the elites can much more easily put together the perfect group of elites, meaning the difficulty of the content has to reflect that - i.e. it has to be even more difficult than open world content since open world has to remain accessible for random disorganized groups. So guess what that means DaZee? All those things you consider cheap tricks will be there in spades :)
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    catstarsto wrote: »
    Gravitar.jpg
    That arm is creeping me out, like it's extending out from her back or something.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    The rampages have bigger problems than difficulty, which makes them a bigger problem to fix. In no particular order:
    • Should Rampages be puggable, or should PQs and semi-premades be preferred?
    • Fire and Ice is pretty much Tank and Spank, though upping the health of Living Fire/Ice (so dps has to actually focus them down, instead of them being collateral damage) and upping the damage on Kenina might be good enough.
    • Gravitar shouldn't be the same fight as TA Gravitar, which means designing some new mechanics. You could borrow Onslaught Gravitar tricks, but Gravity Well is a somewhat nauseating mechanic.
    • Sky Command needs to be redone completely; ten minutes of babysitting engines and scoops is not fun. Probably move the fight immediately to the mega-destroid stage -- though mega-destroids are an overused boss, so really better to change it to something else.
    • Lemurian Invasion, again, involves an extended period of wading through chaff, followed by a really stupid boss fight (bleak harbinger looks cool, but it's a cruddy fight), so basically everything other than some cosmetics needs redoing.
  • xel#8768 xel Posts: 47 Arc User
    What kinda increased difficulty are you hoping for here? Personally I think they're troublesome enough, or at least Gravitar is.

    Stupid instant random-target Force Cascades...
    "Xel" no longer exists...
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    The rampages have bigger problems than difficulty, which makes them a bigger problem to fix. In no particular order:

    Should Rampages be puggable, or should PQs and semi-premades be preferred?
    Fire and Ice is pretty much Tank and Spank, though upping the health of Living Fire/Ice (so dps has to actually focus them down, instead of them being collateral damage) and upping the damage on Kenina might be good enough.
    Gravitar shouldn't be the same fight as TA Gravitar, which means designing some new mechanics. You could borrow Onslaught Gravitar tricks, but Gravity Well is a somewhat nauseating mechanic.
    Sky Command needs to be redone completely; ten minutes of babysitting engines and scoops is not fun. Probably move the fight immediately to the mega-destroid stage -- though mega-destroids are an overused boss, so really better to change it to something else.
    Lemurian Invasion, again, involves an extended period of wading through chaff, followed by a really stupid boss fight (bleak harbinger looks cool, but it's a cruddy fight), so basically everything other than some cosmetics needs redoing.

    I've seen it stated multiple times on the forums and in zone chat that Fire & Ice is the ideal target difficulty for rampages...

    So F&I should be left alone...
    Gravitar needs a rework to be difficult rather than punishing...
    Sky Command needs to be made into something that is actually enjoyable...
    And Lemurian needs a revamped boss fight and to lose it's prelude fluff...​​
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    gradii said:

    All the rampages, especially fire and ice, need a complete redo.

    I like Fire and Ice. I can agree the others (less Gravi) need redoing.
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    gradii said:

    darqaura2 said:

    gradii said:

    All the rampages, especially fire and ice, need a complete redo.

    I like Fire and Ice. I can agree the others (less Gravi) need redoing.
    Believe me if it was designed with the same quality as something blizzard or square enix is capable of doing you'd like it more.
    Ehhh arguable. Square Enix is often hit or miss these past few years. The FF XIII series was just okay. The latest one (with the guys on a roadtrip story) seems like it's interesting, but haven't played it yet. The Kingdom Hearts series is great but is full of narrative and gameplay issues for me personally.

    Blizzard I don't find interesting at all anymore for various reasons. Storyline wise they are starting to tread on things that they have done to death. The current expansion also doesn't interest me any further. Some of their earlier stuff (Pandera and the one after) was interesting. I don't know . . . I just haven't been feeling Legion, so I stopped playing it.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    gradii said:

    That's only becuase you believe in order for something to be difficult it has to use cheap tricks, something I've known to be false ever since I actually started trying other games.

    Well I played other games long before you "started trying", and I find all those mechanics you hate fun and interesting. My knowing outweights yours \owo/

    Either way, the content you hate has generally been popular and successful, so whatever you think you know, the facts show otherwise. Maybe you should just stick to those other games?
    gradii said:

    I'm refering to mechanics.

    So is he if you bothered to read.
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  • blumoon8blumoon8 Posts: 430 Arc User
    I don't mind if the rampages are revised and revisited, but I think HUGE buffing it is totally unnecessary. For people who enjoy private queues, that's great. Good for them. I'm actually a shy person though who doesn't like bothering people to team up with me, doesn't really have friends to queue up with who still play, and I lean heavily more towards solo play. I don't have the connections that some players who greatly enjoy harder content may have.

    Right now I actually find Rampages incredibly appealing because they are doable but I enjoy the difficulty. I can go in with a PUG, and we can manage to pull it off 75% of the time. Making Rampages at or above the level of Cosmics puts a level of stress on the Rampages that I feel people like me wouldn't enjoy. We like PUGs! I actually love, LOVE Comics, but I like Rampages at its current step below Cosmics.

    That said, I don't think it's a bad idea to look at them. I also love what limited experience I have had with FF14's boss battles, so I do know what you are talking about Gradii. I haven't experienced their end game stuff, however, but if you're meaning to implement intriguing mechanics over "difficult" mechanics, then that's a different story and I am quite interested where that would lead.

    I feel like I'm both rambling and contradicting myself so I'm totally just going to stop here. lol.

    I say stuff and I say things, sometimes together but only when I'm feeling adventurous.

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    gradii said:

    Well that is what I mean, successful games like FF14 and WoW create difficulty by combining many mechanics which are easy by themselves, but together make a complex and interesting fight where everyone has to work together.

    Hey what a coincidence, so does CO. Go ahead, extrapolate an individual mechanic from any endgame fight and think about how easy it would be if that was the only mechanic in the fight.
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Well that is what I mean, successful games like FF14 and WoW create difficulty by combining many mechanics which are easy by themselves, but together make a complex and interesting fight where everyone has to work together.

    Hey what a coincidence, so does CO. Go ahead, extrapolate an individual mechanic from any endgame fight and think about how easy it would be if that was the only mechanic in the fight.

    Not exactly... in CO most of those "easy mechanics" are more-or-less instant kill mechanics on anyone who doesn't hit block at just the right moment. In other games failing to avoid a powerful attack is more forgiving and actually encourages a team dynamic, if the DPS didn't get out of the way fast enough the healer needs to work more to keep them up so the group can continue. That's rarely the case in CO's endgame, here the difficulty takes a sharp dive from "cake walk" into "punishing", when a player fails to avoid a strong attack, unless they are built as an ubertank they will almost always die, there is no recovery phase that encourages teamwork, it's straight to "you screwed up, you're dead". People complain about cheap one-shot mechanics in other games because they disrupt the team dynamic and often result in people throwing blame in the wrong places. A DPS who gets caught in a one-shot mechanic almost always blames the Tank or Healer for their death, a Tank will always blame the Healer or accuse a DPS of pulling something, and a Healer will Blame the Tank for not holding aggro properly... Those sorts of reactions are why most big name MMOs have abandoned one-shot mechanics or put EXTREMELY OBVIOUS tells on them, and why when those mechanics do exist they are few and far between. I know there are many out there who will claim "CO has no one-shot mechanics" but that's simply not true, "one-shot" mechanics don't simply set your health to zero like some like to assume, they actually still deal damage, the amount of damage is usually far beyond the maximum amount of health possible in the game. In CO we have Cosmics that deal 10k+ DPS, any DPS who didn't dump a ton into Con is sitting at around 5k HP and likely has only about 50% resistance, a single unblocked 10k hit is instant death. I've seen 45k damage pop up from Gravitar in TA before, even a tank who fails a block against that will usually be one-shot. I've heard a lot of stories of ubertanks being one-shot by Cosmics when they missed a block.

    Also, to everyone who keeps demanding difficult content, or praising the new content as "difficult and challenging"... The Qzone is NOT "difficult and challenging" it is punishing, Punishing does NOT equal difficult or challenging. Endless knock spam and holds without resistance is NOT difficult or challenging, it is just annoying. One-shot mechanics without any reasonable tells are not challenging, they are straight up bull$#!&. It's one thing to have actual difficult and challenging content, but when the "difficult and challenging" content we get is nothing but annoying and punishing garbage, it's not worth it.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    raighn said:


    Not exactly... in CO most of those "easy mechanics" are more-or-less instant kill mechanics on anyone who doesn't hit block at just the right moment.

    That doesn't change the fact that they're easy once you look at them on their own. If you boil the fight down to just that one mechanic, the fight becomes stupidly easy. It's the fact that there are multiple of them occurring that makes the fight somewhat challenging. It's just like the thing that DaZee said is a good thing, and I agree with him: the fact that CO does this is a good thing.

    PS - if you're getting one shot by non-one shot mechanics due to your low health, you have the option to change that stat: you choose not to.
    raighn said:


    Also, to everyone who keeps demanding difficult content, or praising the new content as "difficult and challenging"... The Qzone is NOT "difficult and challenging" it is punishing, Punishing does NOT equal difficult or challenging. Endless knock spam and holds without resistance is NOT difficult or challenging, it is just annoying. One-shot mechanics without any reasonable tells are not challenging, they are straight up bull$#!&. It's one thing to have actual difficult and challenging content, but when the "difficult and challenging" content we get is nothing but annoying and punishing garbage, it's not worth it.​​

    Punishing failure is a way of making content challenging. Claiming otherwise tries to completely ignore quite a lot of games that are widely acknowledged as being challenging.

    Also "endless knock spam and holds without resistance" only happens if you play poorly. I know you might not want to admit it, but that's what's happening. I don't get endlessly knock spammed or held in QWZ when I'm playing on melee characters with little to no resistance. You can keep telling yourself this isn't the case, but that way of thinking will only prevent you from succeeding. Honestly, after my videos, trying to peddle this "endless knocks and holds" myth became a bit silly.
  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    raighn said:


    Not exactly... in CO most of those "easy mechanics" are more-or-less instant kill mechanics on anyone who doesn't hit block at just the right moment. In other games failing to avoid a powerful attack is more forgiving and actually encourages a team dynamic, if the DPS didn't get out of the way fast enough the healer needs to work more to keep them up so the group can continue.​

    Well, there is a reason for that Rai, its the block component, if you look at virtually every single other mmo out there, there is no block. So, the "cheap trick" mechanics have to be somewhat forgiving. But with the block mechanic in CO, things have to be punishing. If we want things to be easier, they need to remove block, which I don't see happening.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    The real reason for one-shots isn't blocks. It's that healing is too good, and thus the only things that can actually defeat a character are one-shots and the healer being unable to heal for some reason.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    gradii said:

    That really only applies to team content. Also one major reason healing is too good is the health pools are so small compared to the numbers healers can heal.

    Right, and the easiest solution to that is reducing healing numbers.
    gradii said:

    Content also now RELIES on healers being so good

    When you build new and challenging content, you necessary look at what characters currently in the game can do, and then set difficulty so it will be challenging for those characters.
    gradii said:

    and able to heal an entire health bar in an instant, just look at dino's one shot to near one shot attack spam, as well as the monkeypunch and kigablasts, all designed around healers being able to very quickly replenish tank health.

    Funny thing is: none of those fights are actually designed around one shot attack spam. When tanked as designed (three tanks splitting damage), a competently built tank generally won't be killed by a failed block. It's just that players got good enough at blocking, so now the cosmics are routinely solo tanked.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    I am loving the leaps in logic being produced here. The yea but's being thrown about while trying to dismiss the exact same mechanical designs. But *shrugs* If people don't think one shots exist in WoW, well, you haven't honestly played the game much then, do the finder stuff (which is intentionally dumb down for the weakest link game play) or never really participated in actual raid content. Hell they had to make a whole new difficulty setting in WoW again to account they dumbed down their hardest difficulty so much the past few years. Many of the encounters even in heroic dungeons and raid finder had plenty of do this or die mechanics and anyone claiming otherwise is just lying at this point.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    gradii said:

    If this problem is going to be fixed, health pools, healing numbers, and content design all needs to change.

    Are you advocating for player nerfs suddenly?
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    gradii said:

    I am loving the leaps in logic being produced here. The yea but's being thrown about while trying to dismiss the exact same mechanical designs. But *shrugs* If people don't think one shots exist in WoW, well, you haven't honestly played the game much then, do the finder stuff (which is intentionally dumb down for the weakest link game play) or never really participated in actual raid content. Hell they had to make a whole new difficulty setting in WoW again to account they dumbed down their hardest difficulty so much the past few years. Many of the encounters even in heroic dungeons and raid finder had plenty of do this or die mechanics and anyone claiming otherwise is just lying at this point.

    I'm going to try very hard to make this the last time I respond to you because honestly I'm getting tired of feeding the dogs/trolls..
    Why because you hate being called on the fact you keep misrepresenting or outright lying about the facts? Tell me how many be in this spot or how many DPS checks or how many heal through this or die moments do you know of in WoW. If you say none then I know you've never done a dungeon here because I can tell you in Legion there are plenty. You can call me a troll for stating the obvious fact, but it is a fact. Hell we called them cuddle puddles because we had to stand in a specific spot as the healers had to burn heals to keep us alive or die. DPS checks, survival checks, heal checks go here or die checks they are abundant in WoW.

    You are lying if you claim there are no such mechanics in WoW dungeons, or especially an FFXIV dungeon when I use to watch a friends live stream of that watching the exact do this or die mechanics. That's all block is, and claiming that there are no one shots in other games, I mean seriously grow up Gradii and stop making up facts or linking articles you obviously never read that continuously disprove your view.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Snip

    Would you define 15-17k HP with about 450 defense a competently built tank? I've seen those one shotted on a missed block with 3 tanks in front of dino.
    Depends on passive. Assuming you don't have your defense debuffed by an unblocked dino breath, and the dino isn't frenzied, and you're using defiance, you should take around 12k, or less if you're using a block with a linger, though dino does have fairly high damage randomness for unclear reasons.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Let me put it another way;

    If we followed the WoW formula then build variety would be completely dead. Everyone would essentially have to build the exact same way, IE all tanks would have to be defiance tanks heavy CON and either might or heavy weapons now. All DPS will be playing whatever AT or power set is the strongest at the moment and all heals and CC would have to have the exact same builds. Variety would have to take a back seat because to do it the WoW raid requires some level of optimization, even for LFR. LFR runs tend to get carried, a lot, by higher geared players, amazingly so, but when you enter a group of barely geared, in-optimized builds it's a nightmare.

    Hell, WoW is where the Raid or Die mentality pretty much was fostered at. If WoW had a block button you would see it getting used to hell and back. During MOP brewmasters were nearly unstoppable, but only when played by highly skilled players. They became so badass that going without a brewmaster was almost unthinkable. Then they got severely nerfed for WoD and then again in Legion. Legion also saw the removal of tank self heals because it was just so blatantly powerful. And cuddle puddles are still a thing and of course it is a requirement in most raid guilds that you have DBM even for basic dungeons.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    gradii said:


    I'm going to try very hard to make this the last time I respond to you because honestly I'm getting tired of feeding the dogs/trolls..

    How is she trolling? WoW does have one-shot mechanics.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited April 2017

    gradii said:


    I'm going to try very hard to make this the last time I respond to you because honestly I'm getting tired of feeding the dogs/trolls..

    How is she trolling? WoW does have one-shot mechanics.
    Because Gradii can't bully me like he has others in the past and when people stand up and give back what he delivers he gets indignant. And when people point out how wrong he is, especially since he professes himself as the only one who knows what he is talking about in gaming in general, he gets really pissy.

    Long story short, you're a troll when he can't bully, harass you or if you are not otherwise treating him like the smartest thing on the planet due to him continuously posting links or talking about games that completely contradict his completely wrong statements.
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    gradii said:

    darqaura2 said:

    gradii said:

    darqaura2 said:

    gradii said:

    All the rampages, especially fire and ice, need a complete redo.

    I like Fire and Ice. I can agree the others (less Gravi) need redoing.
    Believe me if it was designed with the same quality as something blizzard or square enix is capable of doing you'd like it more.
    Ehhh arguable. Square Enix is often hit or miss these past few years. The FF XIII series was just okay. The latest one (with the guys on a roadtrip story) seems like it's interesting, but haven't played it yet. The Kingdom Hearts series is great but is full of narrative and gameplay issues for me personally.

    Blizzard I don't find interesting at all anymore for various reasons. Storyline wise they are starting to tread on things that they have done to death. The current expansion also doesn't interest me any further. Some of their earlier stuff (Pandera and the one after) was interesting. I don't know . . . I just haven't been feeling Legion, so I stopped playing it.
    I'm refering to mechanics.
    I was referring to mechanics, gameplay, story telling etc.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User

    Let me put it another way;

    If we followed the WoW formula then build variety would be completely dead. Everyone would essentially have to build the exact same way, IE all tanks would have to be defiance tanks heavy CON and either might or heavy weapons now. All DPS will be playing whatever AT or power set is the strongest at the moment and all heals and CC would have to have the exact same builds. Variety would have to take a back seat because to do it the WoW raid requires some level of optimization, even for LFR. LFR runs tend to get carried, a lot, by higher geared players, amazingly so, but when you enter a group of barely geared, in-optimized builds it's a nightmare.

    Hell, WoW is where the Raid or Die mentality pretty much was fostered at. If WoW had a block button you would see it getting used to hell and back. During MOP brewmasters were nearly unstoppable, but only when played by highly skilled players. They became so badass that going without a brewmaster was almost unthinkable. Then they got severely nerfed for WoD and then again in Legion. Legion also saw the removal of tank self heals because it was just so blatantly powerful. And cuddle puddles are still a thing and of course it is a requirement in most raid guilds that you have DBM even for basic dungeons.

    And this right here is one of many reasons I stopped playing WoW. I'm sorry but NO, it is not good game design what is currently happening in WoW. And the story itself in Legion is iffy.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    "What works for WoW works for WoW". Good, you're halfway there. Now you just have to get to the part where you can say "What works for CO works for CO". Then you can work on "Hi my name is DaZee and I don't actually like CO and I accept that, and it doesn't mean that CO has to fundamentally change what it has been since release just because I've been playing WoW a bunch lately."
  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    gradii said:


    I'm neither confirming nor denying her argument, I'm refusing to engage her in serious debate becuase of her attacks on me in particular. read the way she posts.

    I see the pot calling the kettle black...
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    gradii said:

    What works for WoW works for WoW. I'm not saying the exact same thing will work for CO but some basic parts of content design WoW has down solid, definitely far better than the knockspam, stunlock, super high spike damage spam crap CO offers.

    I couldn't agree less. I don't think anything in WoW's arsenal would be good here in CO. The current setup of knock spam can be reduced (though I rarely get knocked here if I'm blocking). Stun lock I have no idea what you are talking about. I simply can't remember the last time my characters got stunned.

    Super high spike damage exists in other games including WoW. It's not new to the mmo genre. And it's quite blockable here.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    darqaura2 said:

    gradii said:

    What works for WoW works for WoW. I'm not saying the exact same thing will work for CO but some basic parts of content design WoW has down solid, definitely far better than the knockspam, stunlock, super high spike damage spam crap CO offers.

    I couldn't agree less. I don't think anything in WoW's arsenal would be good here in CO. The current setup of knock spam can be reduced (though I rarely get knocked here if I'm blocking). Stun lock I have no idea what you are talking about. I simply can't remember the last time my characters got stunned.

    Super high spike damage exists in other games including WoW. It's not new to the mmo genre. And it's quite blockable here.
    It boils down to they want easy mode and have created a false narrative for every other game out there. I am sure if I went to youtube now for every dungeon and raid in WoW or guide there of most will tell you the one shot mechanic for every fight.
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User


    It boils down to they want easy mode and have created a false narrative for every other game out there. I am sure if I went to youtube now for every dungeon and raid in WoW or guide there of most will tell you the one shot mechanic for every fight.

    Don't even need to do that, just create a free account for wow and check the adventure journal. That in game resource lists all the mechanics.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User


    It boils down to they want easy mode and have created a false narrative for every other game out there. I am sure if I went to youtube now for every dungeon and raid in WoW or guide there of most will tell you the one shot mechanic for every fight.

    Don't even need to do that, just create a free account for wow and check the adventure journal. That in game resource lists all the mechanics.
    True but I want a video from the professional raid guilds and such, whichever ones exist now. Hehe.
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  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    Let me put it another way;

    If we followed the WoW formula then build variety would be completely dead. Everyone would essentially have to build the exact same way, IE all tanks would have to be defiance tanks heavy CON and either might or heavy weapons now. All DPS will be playing whatever AT or power set is the strongest at the moment and all heals and CC would have to have the exact same builds. Variety would have to take a back seat because to do it the WoW raid requires some level of optimization, even for LFR. LFR runs tend to get carried, a lot, by higher geared players, amazingly so, but when you enter a group of barely geared, in-optimized builds it's a nightmare.

    Hell, WoW is where the Raid or Die mentality pretty much was fostered at. If WoW had a block button you would see it getting used to hell and back. During MOP brewmasters were nearly unstoppable, but only when played by highly skilled players. They became so badass that going without a brewmaster was almost unthinkable. Then they got severely nerfed for WoD and then again in Legion. Legion also saw the removal of tank self heals because it was just so blatantly powerful. And cuddle puddles are still a thing and of course it is a requirement in most raid guilds that you have DBM even for basic dungeons.

    Talking about blatant lies... First off... WoW's formula involves various different forms of tanks each with their own style of mitigation. Warriors utilizing damage absorption and heavy armor for damage reduction, Druids utilizing a mixture of absorption and heal over time, Death knights mixing damage reduction with with strong lifesteal, Paladin's going with damage reduction and absorption plus self healing, Monks stagger incoming damage overtime and self heal, and Demon Hunters utilize minor damage absorption and massive self healing. The game is designed to make each of these feel different and all be effective. Some (Demon Hunters and Monks) require a much higher skill level to use effectively than others but even that is by design, and is a way to keep different types of players interested in the game.

    LFR with barely geared players is only a nightmare when literally everyone is new to the raid and doesn't know the mechanics yet, or you're grouped with people who don't know how to play their class. Since each class and spec actually plays differently, this tends to happen quite often... people jump on a new class they hear is "topping of the charts" and think they can just run in and do max damage with little effort or face tank everything. The gear makes things easier, but it's the players themselves that make the distinction between a nightmare run and a good run.

    Also, as should be pretty clear from the start of my post, Legion did NOT remove self heals from tanks... it reduced the power of certain tanks self-heals, added a self-heal to all DPS specs, and reduced the overall strength of healing from healing specs. The new dynamic is for tanks to actively mitigate damage as opposed to just face tanking everything and relying on the healer to keep them fully healed all the time. The old setup made healers extremely powerful and tanks were nearly unkillable from their passive mitigation alone.​​
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    raighn said:



    Talking about blatant lies... First off... WoW's formula involves various different forms of tanks each with their own style of mitigation. Warriors utilizing damage absorption and heavy armor for damage reduction, Druids utilizing a mixture of absorption and heal over time, Death knights mixing damage reduction with with strong lifesteal, Paladin's going with damage reduction and absorption plus self healing, Monks stagger incoming damage overtime and self heal, and Demon Hunters utilize minor damage absorption and massive self healing. The game is designed to make each of these feel different and all be effective. Some (Demon Hunters and Monks) require a much higher skill level to use effectively than others but even that is by design, and is a way to keep different types of players interested in the game.

    No they really don't The difference between one tank and the next is actually quite minute. I've played all tanks in WoW, from paladin, death knight, brewmaster and warrior. My favorite tank was the death knight which, last I heard, was still king of tanking thanks to their heal power even though they tried really hard to nerf it. Brewmaster requires such a high skill cap because they effectively neutered what the class was. But all tanks in WoW follow the same formula. Focus intently on their mitigation and specifically their mastery and use their defensive cool downs properly, occasionally move due to death blossom attack. That's the extent of tank skill. Oh wait, that sounds very similar to CO. And please don't lie that WoW tanking has variety. It doesn't. The WoW tanks are very much identical with only power names and style being the difference there. Hell the one thing that made brewmasters unique from the pack is gone thanks to Legion so yea, that's an outright lie to say that tanks in WoW have different ways to tank. They all do it the same now.

    What can a tank be in CO though that's different? Well besides the general brick builds, you have the fire builds, the lightning builds, the mystic builds, oh wait that's right every power set can be a tank and be excellent at it in Champions. I am not stuck kicking myself in the head because I want to be a stabby stabby person but can't be a dual weilder or someone that throws fire and be unable to tank. You can also *gasp* range tank in Champions as well and do it exceptionally well. Hell, you aren't neutered in the healing department either you can give yourself a nice heal power and tank effectively, and you can actually come up with the most bizarre set up and make it work for tanking in Champions. You aren't required to follow some strict guideline and look the same as everyone else, like you are in WoW.
    LFR with barely geared players is only a nightmare when literally everyone is new to the raid and doesn't know the mechanics yet, or you're grouped with people who don't know how to play their class. Since each class and spec actually plays differently, this tends to happen quite often... people jump on a new class they hear is "topping of the charts" and think they can just run in and do max damage with little effort or face tank everything. The gear makes things easier, but it's the players themselves that make the distinction between a nightmare run and a good run.
    This is a blatant lie right here. Raid mechanics as pointed out are already in the dungeon log thing and before the raids even leave the PTR there are already multiple guides on each boss fight from the most prominent raiding guilds, even for LFR. There is literally no chance that anyone worth their salt and wanting to be serious about raiding would not be able to know what to do. Not even Blizzard gives you that change with their dungeon guide thing. Then of course you have the got to have it DBM, which practically tells you what to do for every encounter as it happens with blaring noises and icons for you. In most cases an LFR is succeeded thanks to the raiders who actually go along and usually the over geared people. In short a majority of the time, just like old vanilla, a small minority were carrying a vast majority, which is often reflected in the DPS, HPS and TPS meters quite handily.
    Also, as should be pretty clear from the start of my post, Legion did NOT remove self heals from tanks... it reduced the power of certain tanks self-heals, added a self-heal to all DPS specs, and reduced the overall strength of healing from healing specs. The new dynamic is for tanks to actively mitigate damage as opposed to just face tanking everything and relying on the healer to keep them fully healed all the time. The old setup made healers extremely powerful and tanks were nearly unkillable from their passive mitigation alone.​​
    They basically neutered healing to move the goal posts to a new addendum and made up a false narrative to cover up the nerf. Having tanked raids since Vanilla in WoW, any tank worth their salt was using their active mitigations and using your active mitigation is face tanking. It's not a new dynamic for tanking, it's just removing tools to create artificial challenge in the face that Blizzard follows the same formulas for dungeons as everyone else does. Hell, they removed smart healing to from the game, where orbital heals powers would actually, smartly, pick those with the lowest health, all to fit a new narrative of balance.

    I remember when they tried that same tactic in Cataclysm, they tried to gut healing then to. Didn't work out well then either.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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