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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    meanwhile, i came back because i liked what they were doing. "fun" is subjective. imo the game is in the best place its been in years.
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    gradii said:


    It might be the best place it's been in years but crappy design is still crappy design. Sure, it's actually GETTING new stuff which is better than before, but said stuff is low quality and not enough to hold interest.

    Yeah. I saw your zone chat yesterday, where you logged in to chat about how the game had crappy design.
    *shrug*
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • lifeline99lifeline99 Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”

    Fun is subjective honestly, it doesnt matter if it is CO or STO or any other game; what may be fun for one person may not be fun for the other. People are looking for different things all the time. I think they need to define “fun” first before making such a broad statement.


    Player investment retains value – While things need to be adjusted, a setup that was optimized before should still be useful and effective afterwards.


    In CO this is far from the truth. Things are getting broken down and micromanaged into smaller parts. The game system is starting to fight itself. Having to manage cooldowns + energy management + survivability + gear + etc, It’s getting to the point where you are specializing to the point that even a FF is an AT in its focus. You are not encouraged to mix and match powers like in the past. Builds from the past are not feasible anymore. The builds from the past that are feasible are in powersets that have barely been touched for long time now, but even then when we started having every buff and debuff broken down into smaller and finer parts this diminished their effectiveness. Now I will admit some of them were utterly broken however the team got so used to micromanaging and nerfing that that’s is what comes across in this system. There are other games, Cryptic Games, which handles this much better.

    Choices should be meaningful – Anywhere the game gives you a choice, there should be no choice that you always take nor one you never take.

    Phshhhhhahahahahahahhaha … No, there are no choices that are meaningful in CO. Your powerset will always need a pass, nerfs are inevitably going to happen, and you will give them more money (and/or time) to respec your character when you fall into build depression. FOR GOODNESS SAKE CO INTRODUCED ME TO THE CONCEPT OF “BUILD DEPRESSION.” The story is on rails, events are always “go here, beat on that, get random drop, do it to the point of tedium to get that one cosmetic thing you want.” THE NEMESIS SYSTEM WAS ABANDONED! The one system where CHOICE could have meant something is all but a footnote now. There are things I could suggest to fix this “core value” but this game is so old now, that I have ever given up on it (the game in general) being fixed.

    Closing remarks:

    CO for me is a social dress up game with some beat’em up elements in it. It’s a great chatroom to role-play super heroes. All the “fun” that I got from it was user generated, not game generated. I have been in SGs who have created thier own PvP games, PvE events and more using the existing environment in creative ways. The devs didn't do that, bored people being creative did that. I come to CO to hang out with friends. I have another game that I go to for Fun, Value and Fulfillment that is not driven by the sole desire to hang out with my friends. It’s only the friendships I have forged in CO that keep me coming back.

    However if their goal was to make the game feel like the Roleplaying game system it was based on in terms of complexity and hours put into character building, while making a rather forgettable background setting to go with it, they did a pretty darn good job of that.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    gradii said:

    It might be the best place it's been in years but crappy design is still crappy design. Sure, it's actually GETTING new stuff which is better than before, but said stuff is low quality and not enough to hold interest.

    Do you realize that that's just your subjective opinion? Just checking.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Pretty sure I'm the No. 1 person that says "our dev". The majority of the content we get is recycled. You don't need special skills to copy/paste and you don't need many people doing it. No, I don't believe there is only one dev. At the very least, she would need a few pity assets from elsewhere. I can see there being only one full-time dev. Do I know? Of course not. Is that going to stop me from being facetious? Nope. Cryptic made Kai the entirety of CO and I'm going to run with it.

    No one is going to give out official details because it would be depressing to know the truth.​​
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    [at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    This community sometimes. We got no content for how long? And we finally get some, including power passes we'd been begging for for literally like 5 years, and still. Y'all are really hard to please, lol.

    But I feel like the end issue here is "do you agree with the changes Kaiserin's making"? I do, so I'm cool. If you don't, I can see the issue. But where that big wall of text above basically said "They changed it and it sucks" I'm a bit happier about the partial homogenization of the sets. Lots of em still have their own personality, but dear god. I started playing with new arcane the other day, and it actually does damage now. It has an ENERGY UNLOCK! (PS, Do force next plz). Muni doesn't have to borrow threat wipes from other sets, and has a lot more versatility in set as far as survival. We got new mechanics added in, so the sets that got passes have interesting mechanics to play with.

    My big beef with the old days was how "Take a single target attack, an aoe, then stack 4 actives and cooldown reduction. Congrats, there's your character. Hope you like ego surge." basically became the only meta we ever saw in 99% of the builds people posted. Hell, I was guilty of it too, because it was literally all you could do in the current meta if you wanted to be competitive. Now we have more utility powers that do random stuff, there are add-ons to a bunch of attacks that make the old "use 2 main attacks, because anything else is wasteful" meta basically dead, and the sets that DID get a pass feel a lot more unique now. And sure, lots of stuff feels a bit copy-pasted, but what WAS copy-pasted power wise were abilities we all kinda needed anyway. Stuff that makes sense, like muni FINALLY getting a trauma power. h/t to you, Sterga, for that video on muni a bit ago. Might have disagreed on a few points, but that made me REALLY interested in getting back in the game. I was completely unaware, before that, of all of the changes we were seeing. And there were apparently a ton.

    But I've always been pretty easy to please when this game is concerned, because "Social RPG with combat elements" kinda nails it. Gotta say, though, that I've actually been *playing* a lot more often since I came back, because of how much I like the new design choices. The ATs I wasn't happy with even seem to be slowly getting some love, which I never expected, and makes the DR fix a lot easier to stomach. Not that I think that's really an issue most players will see much of a problem from anyway.

    What I'll never understand is why people come back to this game just to say they hate it. I got bored, and my pc got shaky running it, so I just kinda stopped playing for a while. IDK wtf it is about this game that makes people feel like they have to come back and tell everyone else to stop having fun, because their fun is incorrect, but I kinda hate it. I've seen it a few times in zone recently, and my response was pretty much what it'll always be: If you think what we have is bad, go play marvel heroes for a little while, and check out their new patch. GUARANTEED you'll come back with a new appreciation for our power changes, lol.
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User


    What I'll never understand is why people come back to this game just to say they hate it. I got bored, and my pc got shaky running it, so I just kinda stopped playing for a while. IDK wtf it is about this game that makes people feel like they have to come back and tell everyone else to stop having fun, because their fun is incorrect, but I kinda hate it. I've seen it a few times in zone recently, and my response was pretty much what it'll always be: If you think what we have is bad, go play marvel heroes for a little while, and check out their new patch. GUARANTEED you'll come back with a new appreciation for our power changes, lol.

    I am glad to see you back, Taco.

    Say hi if you see me aboot.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    This community sometimes.

    I agree with everything you said! \o/
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with Kai's updates, it's about the lack of management and design issues that are still problems despite getting more content. The only thing Kai as a dev really changed is that people are far more willing to turn a blind eye to the faults of someone who is "one of us".

    Updates are a mixed bag. There's something cool, flamethrower / particle wave, and something barf, bumping a t0/1 up to t3 to break all sorts of builds. Laser Sword becomes far easier to use, but it's basically a single blade reskin. There are things that could be done to reduce so much redundancy with powers, but aren't.

    What really brings things down is how there isn't an experienced dev working on CO. Whoever made the Warzone had zero level design experience. The overwhelming amount of things that are copy/pasted shows that no one that can create new stuff is working on CO full-time. There really is no excuse for spelling errors, incorrect tooltips, and other stupid bugs to be making it into every update. The mob update wasn't that great as they were just given a bunch of annoying abilities and not an AI improvement. Even the choice in content updates looks like almost all of it is for veteran / raid players. We certainly don't see much foresight into CO outside of "whatever the current dev thinks is cool" and "how to pimp the next lockbox".

    Character building hasn't changed much. Con is still king. Juggy + Warden / Guardian + Vinticator is still OP as hell. Adding in one more power for debuffs to do more damage with a main attack isn't much different than before. Nimble Mind is still the king of AOs. MD, Resurgence, and Unbreakable are still the king of ADs. Defiance is still the best tank passive for high level bosses. Even more so now since Resurgence is inadequate and Lit Reflexes was essentially nerfed with boss debuffs. No one likes playing healers or controllers. Enemy controls are still abusive and player controls are still inferior. Conviction is still the best self-heal power most of the time. Elixir is still better than that. Cash Shop heally patches are still better than all of them.

    Build diversity hasn't improved because some of the worst offenders to balance haven't changed. Especially when taking new content into consideration. Many powers kind of suck when you have to deal with knocks, interrupts, holds, and other over used controls. Blocking is starting to be needed excessively which puts charge up and combos at a disadvantaged VS clicks and constant damage maintains. That's actually a pretty big design oversight between powers and between new content.

    I've actually been mostly disappointed with making builds because you really have those few cool powers to build around and then a bunch of the same old, same old. Melee building especially feels like str / con / end or rec is the best way to go. Why bother with Laser Sword using their own stats (int / end) when I could just go Enrage (str / con) with all of the benefits of more damage AND incredible survivabilty? Especially now with how generic sets are becoming? Even Bullet Beatdown feels better as an Enrage build than trying to work with it's own set.​​
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    [at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    sterga said:

    It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with Kai's updates, it's about the lack of management and design issues that are still problems despite getting more content. The only thing Kai as a dev really changed is that people are far more willing to turn a blind eye to the faults of someone who is "one of us".

    ​​

    Let's face it.. this game is not a priority for PWI. Any dev (whether one of us or not) who get's this game is pretty much on their own. I see no evidence that Kai gets much support or help from PWI or Cryptic. When it comes to CO— I've learned to lower my expectations. If we get new shiny's occasionally that's enough for me.

    This is a seven-year old game in a very niche genre. Expecting it to be treated like a gem by the hosting company is a fantasy that never will come true. Frankly, I'm hugely thankful to Kai for what she's managed to pull off with little to no resources. I doubt any of us could do better in that situation.

    My assumptions are that CO has:

    - No Staff
    - No Budget
    - No Support

    I'm amazed anything at all is done with it and when Kai eventually moves on to greener pastures --- that will be the end of CO.
    Questions About AT Play? Visit Silverwolfx11's Updated AT Guides!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Or we could move on to other games. If CO truly is doomed like you say, theres no point supporting it anymore. it's not fun to play, all that it is is a glorified character creator.

    All depends on what you mean by 'doomed'. Realism: it's never going to be a high priority, and it's going to gradually decline until it dies, because that's what happens to old MMOs. That doesn't mean it's immediately doomed.
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    it's going to gradually decline until it dies, because that's what happens to old MMOs.

    Tell that to the Ultima Online, Ever Quest 1 & 2, and Lineage 1 & 2... you know the games that started the genre and are all STILL ALIVE TODAY!

    The main reason why some MMOs die, is not due to them being dated, it's due to any number of the following factors:
    Unplayable - gameplay mechanics that simply don't work or bugs that plague every aspect of the game.
    Undesirable - based on a theme or universe that quite frankly no one cares about.
    Massively over budgeted - pretty self explanatory.
    The developer closed - for one reason or another the company that made the game has shut down.
    The publisher/investors bottomline - publisher/investors quarterly report saw an unhealthy decline in profits and the MMO happened to be one of the biggest spenders with the smallest profit margin. (The fate of CoH)
    Lawsuits - The game used stolen assets from another game, or civil suits due to questionable buisness practices.​​
    ^-^ cute, cuddly, @Pandabutt ^-^
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    raighn said:


    Tell that to the Ultima Online, Ever Quest 1 & 2, and Lineage 1 & 2... you know the games that started the genre and are all STILL ALIVE TODAY!

    Now, tell me that they haven't declined. The decline can be pretty slow, particularly for larger games (original size of any of those games is way bigger than original size of CO) but it's pretty inevitable.
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Or we could move on to other games. If CO truly is doomed like you say, theres no point supporting it anymore. it's not fun to play, all that it is is a glorified character creator.

    If that is how you feel that is how you feel, not all of us feel that way however.



  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    gradii said:

    Or we could move on to other games. If CO truly is doomed like you say, theres no point supporting it anymore. it's not fun to play, all that it is is a glorified character creator.

    It's not fun to play for you. Remember how you're just giving your opinion and not facts? Just checking.

    Now, tell me that they haven't declined. The decline can be pretty slow, particularly for larger games (original size of any of those games is way bigger than original size of CO) but it's pretty inevitable.

    He isn't disputing the decline, he's disputing the die part. The die part is not guaranteed, as those games show.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Don't get me wrong, the character creator is good enough to warrant logging on sometimes, just to RP or create something. but the game itself is dying.

    But the forums are super good! Enough to warrant logging on a lot to post about a game that's not worth logging into.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    kamokami said:

    gradii said:

    Don't get me wrong, the character creator is good enough to warrant logging on sometimes, just to RP or create something. but the game itself is dying.

    But the forums are super good! Enough to warrant logging on a lot to post about a game that's not worth logging into.
    I lol'd irl
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,267 Arc User
    This community sometimes....

    ... remains painfully reasonable and drama free, compared to most game forums. We just have different opinions about stuff, sometimes.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Posts: 442 Arc User
    I just know I feel sad and lonely when playing the game because when leveling I hardly see anyone else out there. unless ?m doing either alerts or I?m in MC :/
    natesig.jpg

  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    raighn said:




    it's going to gradually decline until it dies, because that's what happens to old MMOs.


    Tell that to the Ultima Online, Ever Quest 1 & 2, and Lineage 1 & 2... you know the games that started the genre and are all STILL ALIVE TODAY!

    .​​

    And they will eventually die.

    "Not dead yet," doesn't translate as, "will not decline and die."

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    gradii said:

    Best part is I don't even have to log onto the game to do so.

    So have you gotten anyone to stop having fun yet?

    PS - just saw you logged in, what a liar.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    reiwulf said:

    I just know I feel sad and lonely when playing the game because when leveling I hardly see anyone else out there. unless ?m doing either alerts or I?m in MC :/

    Leveling to 40 has become the game intro now, as in some other games. At 40, you will be much more likely to do content with others, such as QWZ, TA, and Nemcon (with a fixed queue now).
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Never said I don't ever log on you toady little troll.

    Ya I know, and when you do log in you say dumb stuff like "Yeah I'm being a masochist". Which kind of makes you a hypocrite if you have a memory :'3
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    Falco needs nerfed.
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    darqaura2 said:

    While the last two points just made are nice, in no reality are there more (or even equal the amount of) full time DEVS devoted to CO than there are devoted to WoW. It's not even anywhere close.

    Surely no one is making such an argument???!!!

    I'm not making that argument... however I also don't buy into the repeated claims of "only one full time Dev on CO"... I'm far more willing to believe that there are as few as 5 or 6 full time Devs here, but in no universe will I accept the misguided notion of there only being 1... As for WoW, Blizzard themselves has stated that there is only a skeleton crew of full time devs devoted to WoW after each expansion... How many devs exactly amounts to a "skeleton crew" to blizzard... no one outside of blizzard really knows, but if I had to wager a guess I'd honestly say about 15... What little I actually I do know about their "skeleton crew" is that it includes only 1 dev from the art department, 1 dev from the lore/story department, and up to 2 devs dedicated per class (note: some classes have no devs dedicated to them and instead share a dev with another class {or classes}), whether or not that is the complete extent of their skeleton crew I do not know. There are 7 classes known to have dedicated devs and 2 known to have no devs and 3 that no one's really sure about... So that totals up to between 9 and 19 dedicated devs on their skeleton crew atleast.
    ^-^ cute, cuddly, @Pandabutt ^-^
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  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    darqaura2 said:

    While the last two points just made are nice, in no reality are there more (or even equal the amount of) full time DEVS devoted to CO than there are devoted to WoW. It's not even anywhere close.

    Surely no one is making such an argument???!!!

    I'm not making that argument... however I also don't buy into the repeated claims of "only one full time Dev on CO"... I'm far more willing to believe that there are as few as 5 or 6 full time Devs here, but in no universe will I accept the misguided notion of there only being 1... As for WoW, Blizzard themselves has stated that there is only a skeleton crew of full time devs devoted to WoW after each expansion... How many devs exactly amounts to a "skeleton crew" to blizzard... no one outside of blizzard really knows, but if I had to wager a guess I'd honestly say about 15... What little I actually I do know about their "skeleton crew" is that it includes only 1 dev from the art department, 1 dev from the lore/story department, and up to 2 devs dedicated per class (note: some classes have no devs dedicated to them and instead share a dev with another class {or classes}), whether or not that is the complete extent of their skeleton crew I do not know. There are 7 classes known to have dedicated devs and 2 known to have no devs and 3 that no one's really sure about... So that totals up to between 9 and 19 dedicated devs on their skeleton crew at least.
    ^-^ cute, cuddly, @Pandabutt ^-^
    jniKqKJ.png
  • nornsavantnornsavant Posts: 93 Arc User
    I tried to post something and the forums ate it. if a huge wall of text shows up later ad obnoxio, I am very sorry.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    I tried to post something and the forums ate it. if a huge wall of text shows up later ad obnoxio, I am very sorry.

    It's not your fault, the forums went nuts recently. I think they figured out how to turn off that one feature where some posts randomly have to be approved and as a result all the ones stuck in approval limbo posted all at once O3o
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I tried to post something and the forums ate it. if a huge wall of text shows up later ad obnoxio, I am very sorry.

    It's not your fault, the forums went nuts recently. I think they figured out how to turn off that one feature where some posts randomly have to be approved and as a result all the ones stuck in approval limbo posted all at once O3o

    that feature is still in place... I think they just went through hitting approve on everything is all​​
    ^-^ cute, cuddly, @Pandabutt ^-^
    jniKqKJ.png
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