buff regeneration and give us a berserker buff power

blazeingdragoon · March 2017

i've been getting alot of people that says regeneration is not doing its tank roll any good at all and honestly it needs to be buffed up to were it is doing as good as the top tier tanking roles. one of the things that could work is increase the ammount of resistances regeneration have and maybe not have those resistances decay. that way we have more customization in with tanking plus we need a buff that increases a resistances to knockbacks, holds, roots,kind of like aggressor but for beastial tree but have it increase attack speed and speed up cooldowns of attack powers. this could easily be used as an ultimate now i think about it. do we even have a ultimate that works as a buff?

championshewolf · March 2017

Regeneration is fine. Defiance and Unstoppable both already have knock resistance. I don't get what you are asking for in general.

avianos · March 2017

Well Regeneration could take use of that small resistance buff it has on full health as permanent resistance buff, but beyond that it's already pretty good Defensive passive

also eventually in the future, like every other powerframe, Bestial Supernatural will get it's own themed Ultimate

opalflame · March 2017

I would like to see regen get a buff. I really wanted a regen tank who could handle main tanking cosmics as well as other tanks, but unfortunately I had to give up and go with defiance instead. There really is no reason that the damage resistance from regen should not be permanent. PFF could also use a buff.

raighn · March 2017

championshewolf said:
Regeneration is fine. Defiance and Unstoppable both already have knock resistance. I don't get what you are asking for in general.

Regeneration is not fine... It and PFF are the only 2 tanking passives that can't hold up to end game, and people using either passive for just about any content frequently get told that they should change passives or stop tanking.

ALL tanking passives should be viable for ALL content. PERIOD. no ifs ands or buts about it.

markhawkman · March 2017

Yeah, Regen is good, until you take enough damage for the resist buff to stop working. Then you either hold block or die.

Maybe add an advantage to it to make it so both effects of regen are at full power all the time?

championshewolf · March 2017

raighn said:

championshewolf said:
Regeneration is fine. Defiance and Unstoppable both already have knock resistance. I don't get what you are asking for in general.
Regeneration is not fine... It and PFF are the only 2 tanking passives that can't hold up to end game, and people using either passive for just about any content frequently get told that they should change passives or stop tanking.

ALL tanking passives should be viable for ALL content. PERIOD. no ifs ands or buts about it.

All passives are viable, some require more dedication than others, and like it or not, Regeneration is a reactive defense not a proactive defense. I tanked as a regen tank for a very long time, including TA, when no one else said it was viable. I even tanked cosmics with it. Still held the highest threat to. So people telling me that regeneration is not viable is just full of it. You have to do the same kind of blocking as any other defensive passive. The difference is regeneration requires a lot more dedication and paying attention than the others.

chaosdrgnz43 · March 2017

Attack speed? Seems like your asking for faster power activation or faster animation.

raighn · March 2017

championshewolf said:

raighn said:

championshewolf said:
Regeneration is fine. Defiance and Unstoppable both already have knock resistance. I don't get what you are asking for in general.
Regeneration is not fine... It and PFF are the only 2 tanking passives that can't hold up to end game, and people using either passive for just about any content frequently get told that they should change passives or stop tanking.

ALL tanking passives should be viable for ALL content. PERIOD. no ifs ands or buts about it.
All passives are viable, some require more dedication than others, and like it or not, Regeneration is a reactive defense not a proactive defense. I tanked as a regen tank for a very long time, including TA, when no one else said it was viable. I even tanked cosmics with it. Still held the highest threat to. So people telling me that regeneration is not viable is just full of it. You have to do the same kind of blocking as any other defensive passive. The difference is regeneration requires a lot more dedication and paying attention than the others.

No, the difference is that all of your survival comes from blocking with regen in lategame. Claiming "it requires a lot more dedication" really just shows you to be i. Denial of admitting that it doesnt measure up. I could take an offensive passive character into a fight and do all the same extra dedication as is required for regen and have the same survival results. Taking Defiance or Invulnerability on tne other hand is more forgiving, as any defensive passive should be.

There is no excuse for a defensive passive to lose its defensive benefits the way regen and PFF do.

championshewolf · March 2017

raighn said:

championshewolf said:

raighn said:

championshewolf said:
Regeneration is fine. Defiance and Unstoppable both already have knock resistance. I don't get what you are asking for in general.
Regeneration is not fine... It and PFF are the only 2 tanking passives that can't hold up to end game, and people using either passive for just about any content frequently get told that they should change passives or stop tanking.

ALL tanking passives should be viable for ALL content. PERIOD. no ifs ands or buts about it.
All passives are viable, some require more dedication than others, and like it or not, Regeneration is a reactive defense not a proactive defense. I tanked as a regen tank for a very long time, including TA, when no one else said it was viable. I even tanked cosmics with it. Still held the highest threat to. So people telling me that regeneration is not viable is just full of it. You have to do the same kind of blocking as any other defensive passive. The difference is regeneration requires a lot more dedication and paying attention than the others.
No, the difference is that all of your survival comes from blocking with regen in lategame. Claiming "it requires a lot more dedication" really just shows you to be i. Denial of admitting that it doesnt measure up. I could take an offensive passive character into a fight and do all the same extra dedication as is required for regen and have the same survival results. Taking Defiance or Invulnerability on tne other hand is more forgiving, as any defensive passive should be.

There is no excuse for a defensive passive to lose its defensive benefits the way regen and PFF do.

All your survival comes with blocking, proper defense, moving, using items, and healing. Your point being? Defiance isn't going to live long without healing, nor is invulnerability. Regeneration won't live long without defense. You seem to be straw manning the point without actual experience behind the other sets. I certainly don't spend my time eating hits and all it requires is timing. Even as an invuln I spend most of my time timing my blocks, not eating damage attacks. So this is already a debunked theory. Hell the added benefit of regen meant I didn't have to focus so much on healing. There's a reason that even as regeneration people thought content was too easy when I was tanking.

opalflame · March 2017

You can tank cosmics with any passive if you know when to block and have a healer. That doesn't mean it's as good as other passives.

rtma · March 2017

Wait For Force Review to see how they improve PFF. o.3.o

maatmons · March 2017

Yeah, it always seemed like PFF should have had better healing than Regeneration, since the “healing” it provides only applies to the portion of your effective HP that comes from the shield itself.

One thing with Regeneration is, it doesn't interact as well with outside healing as Defiance or Invulnerability. Both of those give much better mitigation, so the same number of HP healed works out to more effective HP restored. Do you think it would make sense for regeneration to provide a buff to all healing received? Kind of like your teammate's healing spell and your own innate fast healing compound each other? (Of course, the base healing of Regeneration would have to be reworked. Unless the healing from regeneration is exempted from the passive's own healing boost.)

Now, as pointed out, Regeneration is reactive rather than preventative. I think that's an interesting distinction that's worth keeping. However, this makes Regeneration singularly bad at dealing with damage that comes in large bursts. If you get one-shotted, your healing doesn't bring you back from negative HP.

Since PFF incorporates both “healing” and an extra HP buffer above your normal HP, what if Regeneration got an HP buffer below your normal HP? So, when you're reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, you don't immediately die. Instead, the passive artificially keeps you alive for a short amount of time, and if you can heal back to at least 1 HP in that time, you live?

A different way to give Regeneration insulation against one shots would be if the passive could convert large chunks of damage into damage over time. So you'd take all the damage from the hit eventually, but your healing would have the chance to deal with it a little bit at a time. Then, in order to kill you, someone would have to be able to damage you at a rate that exceeds your healing, and keep it up for at least a little while. One big hit wouldn't do it anymore (unless it's so big than the resultant damage over time exceeds the rate at which you heal).

In any case, I'd like to see Regeneration tick much more frequently, at least in combat. I can understand if they don't want to put up with the overhead of frequent ticks happening constantly outside of combat. They've already got energy unlocks that turn themselves off when you're not in combat. Seems like they could build a similar switch into regeneration, except it just changes how often it ticks. Obviously, the amount healed per tick would need to be adjusted so that the rate of healing stayed the same.

roughbearmattach · March 2017

Regeneration can work quite well if you take Protector and Protector Mastery, coupling with Resurgence, and possibly even Nanite Swarm. It's a really great combo, and, as Shewolf said, does require some more attention than tanking with Defiance or Invulnerability.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

The easiest way to add spike resistance to regen, without changing its flavor, would be to just give it a buff to max HP.

opalflame · March 2017

gradii said:

opalflame said:
You can tank cosmics with any passive if you know when to block and have a healer. That doesn't mean it's as good as other passives.
Really? try with PFF.

It's possible. If you have enough defense, hp, a good healer, and can block everything perfectly, you could even tank with no passive. Of course, it would be really risky and there is absolutely no reason to do this outside of just showing off, but it's possible. I still think that both PFF and Regen need a buff, though.

soulforger · March 2017

I tank just fine with regen, though my tanks don't have the gear for TA or Cosmics. But, everything else I tank just fine.

maatmons · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:
The easiest way to add spike resistance to regen, without changing its flavor, would be to just give it a buff to max HP.

I'm going to have to disagree here. Whether you give DR or extra HP, the result is the same. Each hit takes off a smaller chunk of your health bar. Just because it's tracked differently in the brains of the computer, that doesn't mean the player experience is perceptibly different. If DR would violate the flavor of Regeneration, so would extra HP.

Now, since this game mostly doesn't use percent-based healing, there is one difference between a high-DR character and a high-HP one. The high-HP character can't heal as effectively.

If the healer casts a spell on someone with DR, that spell will counteract more enemy attacks. As I mentioned before, if anything, regeneration should improve healing from allies. If healing spells work by multiplying the effectiveness of your natural healing ability, the guy with the outstanding natural healing ability will get far more benefit.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

maatmons said:
I'm going to have to disagree here. Whether you give DR or extra HP, the result is the same. Each hit takes off a smaller chunk of your health bar.

And if all heals were percentage based, that would be a reasonable criticism. Since they aren't, it does actually have a meaningful effect.

maatmons · March 2017

The meaningful effect of making characters with Regeneration worse at healing than characters with Defiance/Invulnerability, yes.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

maatmons said:
The meaningful effect of making characters with Regeneration worse at healing than characters with Defiance/Invulnerability, yes.

Well, yes. If they're better at something, they have to be worse at something else, and the only real choices are 'easier to one-shot' and 'lower healing efficiency'.

markhawkman · March 2017

Oddly, certain self-heal skills DO have a better effect if you have Regen. But not stuff like holy water.

maatmons · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:
Well, yes. If they're better at something, they have to be worse at something else, and the only real choices are 'easier to one-shot' and 'lower healing efficiency'.

Okay, now I see the crux of our disagreement. I don't consider either of those to be acceptable trade offs. The one-shot vulnerability for gameplay reasons, and the inefficient incoming healing for thematic reasons.

As I see it, the game needs to introduce a way of surviving one-shots that isn't just an increase to effective HP. I think that's definitely possible, and I've got four suggestions here. Two of them I already mentioned in this same thread but … meh.

Through and Through: No single instance of damage you take can exceed X% of your maximum HP. Any greater damage is reduced to this amount.

Nine Lives: When you would normally be killed, you instead are left with X HP. This effect can occur at most once every Y seconds.

Last Legs: When you take more damage than you have remaining HP, you do not immediately die. Instead, you acquire an “HP debt” equal to the difference, and a timer begins. If the timer reaches zero before the HP debt is cleared, you immediately die. You also immediately die if your HP debt exceeds your maximum HP. While in this state, any healing you would receive instead reduces your HP debt, and any damage you would receive increases it.

Delayed Symptoms: Any time you would take a single instance of damage (post mitigation) greater than X, you instead receive that same amount of damage in small increments across the next Y seconds. This damage bypasses any mitigation.

maatmons · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:
Well, yes. If they're better at something, they have to be worse at something else, and the only real choices are 'easier to one-shot' and 'lower healing efficiency'.

Okay, now I see the crux of our disagreement. I don't consider either of those to be acceptable trade offs. The one-shot vulnerability for gameplay reasons, and the inefficient incoming healing for thematic reasons.

As I see it, the game needs to introduce a way of surviving one-shots that isn't just an increase to effective HP. I think that's definitely possible, and I've got four suggestions here. Two of them I already mentioned in this same thread but … meh.

Through and Through: No single instance of damage you take can exceed X% of your maximum HP. Any greater damage is reduced to this amount.

Nine Lives: When you would normally be killed, you instead are left with X HP. This effect can occur at most once every Y seconds.

Last Legs: When you take more damage than you have remaining HP, you do not immediately die. Instead, you acquire an “HP debt” equal to the difference, and a timer begins. If the timer reaches zero before the HP debt is cleared, you immediately die. You also immediately die if your HP debt exceeds your maximum HP. While in this state, any healing you would receive instead reduces your HP debt, and any damage you would receive increases it.

Delayed Symptoms: Any time you would take a single instance of damage (post mitigation) greater than X, you instead receive that same amount of damage in small increments across the next Y seconds. This damage bypasses any mitigation.

Edit: Thank God I type my posts in a word processor and copy/past them. The board ate this post when I tried to edit it to fix one of the bold tags.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

maatmons said:

pantagruel01 said:
Well, yes. If they're better at something, they have to be worse at something else, and the only real choices are 'easier to one-shot' and 'lower healing efficiency'.
Okay, now I see the crux of our disagreement. I don't consider either of those to be acceptable trade offs. The one-shot vulnerability for gameplay reasons, and the inefficient incoming healing for thematic reasons.

Well, that's... too bad?

maatmons said:
As I see it, the game needs to introduce a way of surviving one-shots that isn't just an increase to effective HP.

The way healing works in the game, there are really only two ways for a tank to die:

They don't receive any healing for an extended period.
They get oneshotted.

maatmons said:
Through and Through: No single instance of damage you take can exceed X% of your maximum HP. Any greater damage is reduced to this amount.

Guess bosses should split their attacks into (100/X) separate hits.

maatmons said:
Nine Lives: When you would normally be killed, you instead are left with X HP. This effect can occur at most once every Y seconds.

Either Y is a large value and you get oneshotted anyway, or you're left with unkillable tanks with 5k hp.

maatmons said:
Last Legs: When you take more damage than you have remaining HP, you do not immediately die. Instead, you acquire an “HP debt” equal to the difference, and a timer begins.

This is an increase in effective HP.

maatmons said:
Delayed Symptoms: Any time you would take a single instance of damage (post mitigation) greater than X, you instead receive that same amount of damage in small increments across the next Y seconds. This damage bypasses any mitigation.

This makes HP completely meaningless; you now have infinite hp.

maatmons · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:

The way healing works in the game, there are really only two ways for a tank to die:
They don't receive any healing for an extended period.
They get oneshotted.

Actually, the way characters die is that the rate of incoming damage exceeds the rate of healing for too long. How long “too long” is depends on how big the difference is.

That's what hit points do. They “even out” spikes in healing and damage. And there will always be spikes, because damage occurs in discreet instances.

One-shots are just cases where the interval across which damage and healing can even out goes to zero. It's just a particular sub-case, not a second case.

pantagruel01 said:

Guess bosses should split their attacks into (100/X) separate hits.

The people who design the bosses are the same people who design the defensive passives. If they want a boss to ignore a particular defensive ability, they can do that no matter what said defensive ability is.

Honestly, you might as well be saying that Invulnerability and Defiance are bad ideas just because the designers could change a bosses attacks to bypass all damage reduction, if they wanted to.

Yes, this defense would be good against single, large instances of damage and bad against repeated small instances of damage. In the same way, the flat damage reduction portion of Invulnerability is good against repeated small instances of damage and bad against single, large instances of damage.

I thought we could use a mechanic that functions as the opposite of that part of Invulnerability. So what are you saying? It's okay to have one passive that varies in effectiveness based on the sizes of the chunks of damage, but a second, reversed version of the same trade off is ludicrous?

pantagruel01 said:

Either Y is a large value and you get oneshotted anyway, or you're left with unkillable tanks with 5k hp.

For one thing, the timer is more like “how often you can flub your block.” And anyway, single big hits aren't the only damage a player receives.

You can just let yourself get hit with the big attack, knowing you'll have (let's say) 30 HP left no matter what. But if you then take 40 damage from an ongoing poison effect before that your ability resets, you're dead. There are also any additional enemies a boss might summon, and minor attacks they might throw out between the big ones.

This ability leaves you alive, but in a precarious position. You might recover, or you might die. It depends on how events play out.

Anyway, Kingdom Hearts uses a system like the one I described, and it works great. So saying it could never be made to work is ridiculous.

pantagruel01 said:

This is an increase in effective HP.

Yes, but it's not just and increase to effective hit points. Defiance, Invulnerability, and Personal Force Field all increase effective hit points, but they each manage to put their own spin on it. These “danger zone” hit points are distinct from normal hit points due to the special mechanics that apply when you're down in them.

It would work the same to double the character's HP and apply the special mechanic when below half HP. I considered phrasing it that way too. What really matters isn't whether or not extra HP are granted. It's whether or not the passive winds up being anything more than a boring rehash of old stuff, and whether the “feel” it winds up with suits the intended theme.

pantagruel01 said:

This makes HP completely meaningless; you now have infinite hp.

On the contrary, you still need hit points to soak up that damage over time. Even if you're getting healed, the healing and damage are coming in chunks at different times. You need hit point to even things out.

Also, bear in mind that, depending on how much damage is being divided into these smaller pieces, and how many of your own delayed damage effects you manage to be subject to at a given time, the rate at which damage comes in might exceed the rate at which you can heal. If you're taking damage faster than you heal it, and that keeps up, you'll wind up dead no matter how many hit points you have. It's just a question of how long it takes.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

maatmons said:

I thought we could use a mechanic that functions as the opposite of that part of Invulnerability. So what are you saying? It's okay to have one passive that varies in effectiveness based on the sizes of the chunks of damage, but a second, reversed version of the same trade off is ludicrous?

A passive that is better against big attacks than small attacks is a perfectly fine idea. A damage ceiling is not the way to achieve that.

maatmons · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:

A passive that is better against big attacks than small attacks is a perfectly fine idea. A damage ceiling is not the way to achieve that.

Fair enough. Percent-based damage reduction where the percent scales with the amount of damage then?

It would be sort of like our progressive income taxes. Make an average amount of money, and they take 30% of it. Make a ton of money, and they take 90% of it. Make very little money, and they don't take any.

More money earned/damage deal always equates to more money in your pocket/damage taken, but the ratio isn't constant.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

maatmons said:
Fair enough. Percent-based damage reduction where the percent scales with the amount of damage then?

It's not clear whether the game is able to do this. Lightning Reflexes used to be in effect better against big attacks than small, because dodge scaled with attack speed, but that was somewhat problematic (though if avoidance ratings were lower it would be less of an issue).

championshewolf · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:

maatmons said:
Fair enough. Percent-based damage reduction where the percent scales with the amount of damage then?
It's not clear whether the game is able to do this. Lightning Reflexes used to be in effect better against big attacks than small, because dodge scaled with attack speed, but that was somewhat problematic (though if avoidance ratings were lower it would be less of an issue).

It was problematic in the fact it pretty much invalidated big boss encounters because of ridiculous levels of avoidance along with high defense. It was vulnerable to small attacks but those were offset with good defense which lightning reflexes could also have.

pantagruel01 · March 2017

championshewolf said:
It was problematic in the fact it pretty much invalidated big boss encounters because of ridiculous levels of avoidance along with high defense. It was vulnerable to small attacks but those were offset with good defense which lightning reflexes could also have.

It also completely invalidated charged attacks, and you didn't even need LR, you could just get some dodge rating on an invuln build and be good against everything. However, it might be possible to have something less drastic than the old dodge.

championshewolf · March 2017

pantagruel01 said:

championshewolf said:
It was problematic in the fact it pretty much invalidated big boss encounters because of ridiculous levels of avoidance along with high defense. It was vulnerable to small attacks but those were offset with good defense which lightning reflexes could also have.
It also completely invalidated charged attacks, and you didn't even need LR, you could just get some dodge rating on an invuln build and be good against everything. However, it might be possible to have something less drastic than the old dodge.

Honestly, the entire powers system needs an overhaul. The most egregious parts being the offensive/defensive/support passives we have now. But that's something not going to happen in any foreseeable future. Of course, the dandy lights won't agree to it, though they keep demanding things change for an improved system.

raighn · March 2017

Perhaps Regen could stagger a percentage of incomming damage over time based on rank and stats... staggered damage ignores resistances and is calculated before any resistances

buff regeneration and give us a berserker buff power

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