Even so, between dpsing and healing, you at least have to build somewhat for a decent dps toon -- dino dps checks provide a challenge in that fashion.
Yes-ish. If you are aware of this fact then yes. There's a big but though.
The most obvious fails are those of the tanks...most typically missing blocks. Healer's fails are pretty obvious too, when you see Tanks die slowly (not when they miss a block and their hp evaporates) then it's clearly on the Healers.
DPSers fails are the least obvious. Dino checks help, but that can always be some other DPSers fault because responsibility is more dispersed than it is for Tanks and Healers.
It's easier to get away with a bad DPS than it is to get away with bad heals or bad tanking.
Your other points about priority in heals -- I don't personally have a dps that requires a healer to participate for exactly the reason you mentioned - the focus is on the tanks first. If someone heals me, great, but it really isn't making a difference in how much damage I am doing.
Ok, but how are you accomplishing not needing heals? By healing yourself I presume and by being mindful of your HP bar and by blocking at the right times.
What if you didn't have to heal yourself at all? Or think about your own HP bar and could focus on timing your charges vs taps, your debuffs, AOs etc. And what if you make a mistake and time your blocks incorrectly? Which some people do way more than others.
Maybe others make dps that require healing, in which case I would say it is more that their build is forcing the healers away from their first objective.
Not just their build but how they play too. There are players with great gear and decent builds that consistently miss blocks, stand in bad spots etc. Their damage potential is high but output is low.
OK fine, I'm game. Look, you are having trouble with this for some reason Clarence-knows-why. I am guessing maybe it is because you're defensive about your own play style, also. That is another opinion.
The people you're arguing with all play main tanks, side tanks, healers, dps, and CC, as the situation demands.
I am not sure why the scoring part of this discussion is such a big deal. If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
The people you're arguing with all play main tanks, side tanks, healers, dps, and CC, as the situation demands.
I guess I don't see that as unusual as IME lots of players do that, including me. As I said above I run 15 characters through cosmics, having multiples of every role except ccer.
Ok, but how are you accomplishing not needing heals? By healing yourself I presume and by being mindful of your HP bar and by blocking at the right times.
What if you didn't have to heal yourself at all? Or think about your own HP bar and could focus on timing your charges vs taps, your debuffs, AOs etc. And what if you make a mistake and time your blocks incorrectly? Which some people do way more than others.
Healing myself and/or blocking only prevents me from getting top score and you already know there is no motivation for me there. I make the dps checks or that toon doesn't show up again until it does, I do not die to kiga storms (honestly I don't think I ever have and I am mystified why surviving them is a challenge) and ape -- who cares as long as he dies and I hit the threshold? I won't know about eido until it has been around long enough for people to not be so protective of the gatherings. I have avoided doing it because I know others may not have the time for me to learn if it screws up their run. Maybe in a few more months. Yeah, seriously. It'll still be there.
I know this doesn't make sense to many folks out there but I'm not even in this for the rewards. I'm in it for "why did this build not do as well as that build and how do I fix it?" I wish I could take my rewards in retcons.
Healing myself and/or blocking only prevents me from getting top score and you already know there is no motivation for me there. I make the dps checks or that toon doesn't show up again until it does, I do not die to kiga storms (honestly I don't think I ever have and I am mystified why surviving them is a challenge) and ape -- who cares as long as he dies and I hit the threshold? I won't know about eido until it has been around long enough for people to not be so protective of the gatherings. I have avoided doing it because I know others may not have the time for me to learn if it screws up their run. Maybe in a few more months. Yeah, seriously. It'll still be there.
I know this doesn't make sense to many folks out there but I'm not even in this for the rewards. I'm in it for "why did this build not do as well as that build and how do I fix it?" I wish I could take my rewards in retcons.
That's fine, but if we're talking about maximizing how much someone actually contributes to a fight...scores aside...then Healing the DPS does help. Because while you may play your DPS this way, others may not play theirs that way.
Okay, we have gotten WAY afield here. Healing-derp, shut up. Score is fine. Changing healer score calculation is irrelevant to whether a tank gets credit, so it needs to get the F out of this conversation.
As I said before, this could easily be solved by calculating off of incoming damage, rather than damage taken.
If you started calculating off of threat, a couple bad things happen. 1) Soak tanks get screwed. 2) DPS are incentivized to get Challenge or Confront mods to pad their score, and just pray they don't over-threat and pull the monster off the tanks.
Lastly, and also irrelevant, the CCer at Kiga and Ape should automatically get high score and a special bonus drop. If you are counting by contribution to speed of success, as was mentioned earlier, no single person does more than the CCer at those two monsters. Anyway, that's irrelevant to the Tank question, but I just wanted to get that in there.
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Contribution by Person X = the difference of completion time for the whole team with Person X vs without Person X
We can roughly translate this to: Contribution by Person X = Total Team Damage with Person X - Total Team Damage without Person X
Person X could be a DPS, where most of their contribution is their own damage Person X could be a Tank, where without their aggro the team would have to block a lot more or die and deal less damage Person X could be a Healer, where without their healing the team would have to block a lot more or die and deal less damage Person X could be a Buffer/Debuffer, where without their aura bonus and debuffs the team would deal less damage Person X could be a CCer, where this would not buff damage output but still very significantly reduces completion time given the mechanics at Ape, Kiga, and Eido
This is literally (not figuratively) the most important thing said in this whole discussion. Yes, this discussion is about tanks getting credit, but the larger discussion is really that the whole credit system is a complete clustercluck. It is absolutely horrible. It does not even remotely reflect who has contributed most to the speedy success of the battle.
Many people say the score doesn't matter, but remember Worf's wise words.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
I made a comment yesterday that a Kiga run was almost "too fast" and people took some offense. Nothing major, just that some people seemed to have a problem with the idea that a fight could go too well.
Tanks are at risk certainly, but so too are healers and some reliable if not spectacular DPS.
I think that a lot of the relatively recent problems with people hitting hearts at Qwyjibo are an outgrowth of this; Some people wanting to make sure that they have enough time to get a ranking score so they sabotage the run. When CCers were struggling to get credit this was seen as acceptable. They would "sabotage" themselves and people were generally okay with it because we knew that CC was necessary and those players deserved credit.
Now it may be that people that think that their DPS isn't good enough will do it to give themselves more time to rank, or even that people showing up late will take it upon themselves to sabotage the run so that they can get a qualifying score.
Even with no other changes, maybe just increasing cosmic HP would work here. More HP = more time for everyone to score points.
Won't solve the ape issue 100%, but it would help with the core issue. More HP = more time fighting, more time fighting = more score for everyone in the fight.
I'm sure it's more than once - the only reason not to deliberately sabotage ape if you arrive late is to avoid being a jerk, and there are far too many people who are perfectly happy to be jerks if it gets them shiny rewards.
Yet another reason the current threshold mechanics should be removed. Get any credit, get full rewards. Done. Hey look, now tanks always get their deserved rewards too!
Personally, if I am CCing and I notice someone deliberately undoing my work then I will just stop CCing
And I wouldn't blame you. There have been times when I have retreated to the mountaintop because of how the fight was going, as in not progressing at all because of people hitting hearts.
But now the whole thing will reset anyway and the late-comer(s) that took it upon themselves to artificially extend the fight still get their wish.
I am not sure why the scoring part of this discussion is such a big deal. If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
I am not sure why the scoring part of this discussion is such a big deal. If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
I am not sure why the scoring part of this discussion is such a big deal. If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
I am not sure why the scoring part of this discussion is such a big deal. If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
it won't matter how good your healer is if theres enough other healers. CO doesn't register healing on a full healthbar at all.
I have one of the top healers in the game and have never had top score.
The only times I score in the top five (or even ten) is with my healers. This comes from *not* focusing on healing a single tank, but putting out massive AoE heals to the rest of the heroes present. Using Medical Nanites, Sentinel Aura, and Vala's Light will net a good score, especially for Kigatilik. This strategy will also be super helpful for team success.
Versus Eidolon, rezzing tons of folks, without dying yourself, also nets quite a score.
it won't matter how good your healer is if theres enough other healers. CO doesn't register healing on a full healthbar at all.
I have one of the top healers in the game and have never had top score.
The only times I score in the top five (or even ten) is with my healers. This comes from *not* focusing on healing a single tank, but putting out massive AoE heals to the rest of the heroes present. Using Medical Nanites, Sentinel Aura, and Vala's Light will net a good score, especially for Kigatilik. This str
it won't matter how good your healer is if theres enough other healers. CO doesn't register healing on a full healthbar at all.
I have one of the top healers in the game and have never had top score.
The only times I score in the top five (or even ten) is with my healers. This comes from *not* focusing on healing a single tank, but putting out massive AoE heals to the rest of the heroes present. Using Medical Nanites, Sentinel Aura, and Vala's Light will net a good score, especially for Kigatilik.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check. We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
it won't matter how good your healer is if theres enough other healers. CO doesn't register healing on a full healthbar at all.
I have one of the top healers in the game and have never had top score.
The only times I score in the top five (or even ten) is with my healers. This comes from *not* focusing on healing a single tank, but putting out massive AoE heals to the rest of the heroes present. Using Medical Nanites, Sentinel Aura, and Vala's Light will net a good score, especially for Kigatilik.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check. We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
it won't matter how good your healer is if theres enough other healers. CO doesn't register healing on a full healthbar at all.
I have one of the top healers in the game and have never had top score.
The only times I score in the top five (or even ten) is with my healers. This comes from *not* focusing on healing a single tank, but putting out massive AoE heals to the rest of the heroes present. Using Medical Nanites, Sentinel Aura, and Vala's Light will net a good score, especially for Kigatilik.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check. We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
it won't matter how good your healer is if theres enough other healers. CO doesn't register healing on a full healthbar at all.
I have one of the top healers in the game and have never had top score.
The only times I score in the top five (or even ten) is with my healers. This comes from *not* focusing on healing a single tank, but putting out massive AoE heals to the rest of the heroes present. Using Medical Nanites, Sentinel Aura, and Vala's Light will net a good score, especially for Kigatilik.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check. We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
Comments
The most obvious fails are those of the tanks...most typically missing blocks. Healer's fails are pretty obvious too, when you see Tanks die slowly (not when they miss a block and their hp evaporates) then it's clearly on the Healers.
DPSers fails are the least obvious. Dino checks help, but that can always be some other DPSers fault because responsibility is more dispersed than it is for Tanks and Healers.
It's easier to get away with a bad DPS than it is to get away with bad heals or bad tanking. Agreed on this point. Though they're under more pressure than the DPS. Ok, but how are you accomplishing not needing heals? By healing yourself I presume and by being mindful of your HP bar and by blocking at the right times.
What if you didn't have to heal yourself at all? Or think about your own HP bar and could focus on timing your charges vs taps, your debuffs, AOs etc. And what if you make a mistake and time your blocks incorrectly? Which some people do way more than others. Not just their build but how they play too. There are players with great gear and decent builds that consistently miss blocks, stand in bad spots etc. Their damage potential is high but output is low. Good IMO, the Cosmics have made team oriented builds a thing to have. Team builds were largely useless before the revamp.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
Note it!
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Healing myself and/or blocking only prevents me from getting top score and you already know there is no motivation for me there. I make the dps checks or that toon doesn't show up again until it does, I do not die to kiga storms (honestly I don't think I ever have and I am mystified why surviving them is a challenge) and ape -- who cares as long as he dies and I hit the threshold? I won't know about eido until it has been around long enough for people to not be so protective of the gatherings. I have avoided doing it because I know others may not have the time for me to learn if it screws up their run. Maybe in a few more months. Yeah, seriously. It'll still be there.
I know this doesn't make sense to many folks out there but I'm not even in this for the rewards. I'm in it for "why did this build not do as well as that build and how do I fix it?" I wish I could take my rewards in retcons.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
As I said before, this could easily be solved by calculating off of incoming damage, rather than damage taken.
If you started calculating off of threat, a couple bad things happen. 1) Soak tanks get screwed. 2) DPS are incentivized to get Challenge or Confront mods to pad their score, and just pray they don't over-threat and pull the monster off the tanks.
Lastly, and also irrelevant, the CCer at Kiga and Ape should automatically get high score and a special bonus drop. If you are counting by contribution to speed of success, as was mentioned earlier, no single person does more than the CCer at those two monsters. Anyway, that's irrelevant to the Tank question, but I just wanted to get that in there.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Many people say the score doesn't matter, but remember Worf's wise words.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Nothing major, just that some people seemed to have a problem with the idea that a fight could go too well.
Tanks are at risk certainly, but so too are healers and some reliable if not spectacular DPS.
I think that a lot of the relatively recent problems with people hitting hearts at Qwyjibo are an outgrowth of this; Some people wanting to make sure that they have enough time to get a ranking score so they sabotage the run.
When CCers were struggling to get credit this was seen as acceptable. They would "sabotage" themselves and people were generally okay with it because we knew that CC was necessary and those players deserved credit.
Now it may be that people that think that their DPS isn't good enough will do it to give themselves more time to rank, or even that people showing up late will take it upon themselves to sabotage the run so that they can get a qualifying score.
Even with no other changes, maybe just increasing cosmic HP would work here.
More HP = more time for everyone to score points.
Won't solve the ape issue 100%, but it would help with the core issue.
More HP = more time fighting, more time fighting = more score for everyone in the fight.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Yet another reason the current threshold mechanics should be removed. Get any credit, get full rewards. Done. Hey look, now tanks always get their deserved rewards too!
But now the whole thing will reset anyway and the late-comer(s) that took it upon themselves to artificially extend the fight still get their wish.
If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
Note it!
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
Note it!
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
Note it!
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
If you want a super high score, make a super high DPS toon, or an incredible healer. Then you get to have the high score.
I am reminded of a thread about travel powers, how flight isn't usually as good as several others (acrobatics, super speed, even tp at times). That's okay, since you can actually make a toon with that doesn't use flight. If you choose to use flight, you can still be quite effective, but maybe not the best. That's okay, isn't it?
As to the original point, it would be great if tanks score was based on incoming damage, rather than damage after shields/mitigation. That would allow bubbles to be a defense that helped contribute to score. As someone who frequently is a baby tank, it's frustrating for a great run to leave me with no credit/reward.
Having a review of Cosmics, where mechanics are changed and the minimum fight time is a bit longer, is my solution.
Note: Different mechanics does not have to mean harder mechanics.
Note it!
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Versus Eidolon, rezzing tons of folks, without dying yourself, also nets quite a score.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check.
We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
There it is.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check.
We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
There it is.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check.
We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
So there it is.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I just did a Dino run, using AoRP, energy builder, and Sentinel Aura. I used Psionic Accelerator and Psychic Surge devices during each DPS check.
We missed 6 checks. I did not die, and focused on blocking. My score: 484,618.
So there it is.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.